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Author Topic: 6 confirmations is not enough  (Read 4318 times)
Come-from-Beyond (OP)
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February 09, 2015, 10:57:53 AM
 #1

Look at the following scenario:

I send 1'000 BTC to an exchange. After 6 confirmations my account is credited and I buy 1'000 BTC worth of altcoins and withdraw them. Then I create a double-spending transaction that sends 50% of those bitcoins to another my address and 50% as the transaction fee.

What will rational miners do? Depends on the amount of the fee and number of confirmations I think. It would be interesting to see the formula that tells what values are enough to convince 51% of the miners to re-mine the last blocks...
Spjuth
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February 09, 2015, 11:25:56 AM
 #2

Could work. But after mining that orphan block the miner has to make a new transaction from that double spend with a mining fee greater than 25 BTC * 6. That would incentivize the other miners to continue mining on his fork.
Aswan
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February 09, 2015, 11:31:05 AM
 #3

Look at the following scenario:

I send 1'000 BTC to an exchange. After 6 confirmations my account is credited and I buy 1'000 BTC worth of altcoins and withdraw them. Then I create a double-spending transaction that sends 50% of those bitcoins to another my address and 50% as the transaction fee.

What will rational miners do? Depends on the amount of the fee and number of confirmations I think. It would be interesting to see the formula that tells what values are enough to convince 51% of the miners to re-mine the last blocks...

Ok a 1000 BTC Transactions has 6 confirmations and is double spent with a fee of 500 BTC.

First of all, the transaction has to actually propagate to the miners or be directly sent to them. An easy task.
Sencond, the miner has to actually accept the Tx in his memory. This depends on the miner itself. He has to actually consider re-mining and building on top of a double spend transaction that already has 6 confirmations. Fair enough. Lets say we find a miner that does this. It them depends on how much hashpower he (or his pool) has.

Let's say it's a really big pool with 30% of the total hash power.
The chance for the miner to find each block is 30% so in the long run, he will always lose.

With the total hashrate being split into 70% (the guys working on the current chain) and 30% (the miner who performs the attack), an average block time of party 1 (the 70% mainchain hashers) will be ~14,29 minutes while the average block time of party 2 (the 30% hasrate attacking miner) is ~33,33 minutes.

Therefore even if party 2 finds blocks at double the speed it is supposed to (through sheer luck), if would still find block slower than party 1.
Party 2 would have to find blocks 2.33 times as fast as party 1 just to not fall behind more than the 6 blocks. Thats an insane amount of luck needed and it still wont make the attack successful. So they would need to find blocks 2.33 times as fast as party 1 (this is all relative to their hash rate ofc) in order to eventually, some day, catch party 1. However, this would go over a lot more blocks than just the 6 initial confirmations.

There is the option of multiple pools becoming greedy and pulling out of the main chain to mine the Tx. However, this would not lead anywhere since once one of those pools would be the Tx re-confirmed, the others would not build on their chain.
If most pools drop out of the main chain to do this, the main chain would be left with almost no hash power and therefore the fastest pool could eventually take over if they all keep being greedy and mine for themselves.
However, they would have to know others are dropping out of the main chain and not return in before they do so themselves, else they's waste hash power.
So it's a matter of who does it first. If a 30% pool drops out, then a 40% pool could drop out as well and mine for itself because that would leave it with the most hashpower (30% on the first pool and 30% left on main chain, with 40% on the 2nd pool).
However, that would motivate pool 1 to rejoin the main chain because else it would not get anything (because it's blocks would be orphaned by pool 2).

This is how incentivized mining works.

The only problem I see is a 51% attack. However, a 51% attack would probably lead to bitcoin losing a lot of value and therefore the 500 BTC would be worth a lot less, so the risk doing this cannot be calculated.
Well, pools could also cooperate to rake in the 500 BTC and split the money. If most pool participate, the mainchain would get almost no more blocks and the fork would be over soon. This could be an attack thats actually worth is for pools, because it seems like there is a consensus in the network and only a few miners are on "the wrong" chain.
However, even with this you don't know what it might cause to teh price, it's just the attack that is most likely to succeed without destroying the value of the fee.
Meuh6879
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February 09, 2015, 12:18:52 PM
 #4

what is a double-spending ?

the ability to propagate to the network, a false information.


if you hit a node with the "good" blockchain, you can't do that.


in reality ... in the bitcoin network ... you can't double-spend because of the nodes first ... and the miner, secondary.
Ingatqhvq
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February 09, 2015, 12:39:42 PM
 #5

Look at the following scenario:

I send 1'000 BTC to an exchange. After 6 confirmations my account is credited and I buy 1'000 BTC worth of altcoins and withdraw them. Then I create a double-spending transaction that sends 50% of those bitcoins to another my address and 50% as the transaction fee.

What will rational miners do? Depends on the amount of the fee and number of confirmations I think. It would be interesting to see the formula that tells what values are enough to convince 51% of the miners to re-mine the last blocks...
DO you ever succeeded?
As far as I know, most of exchange only demand 1 confirmation.
Come-from-Beyond (OP)
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February 09, 2015, 01:07:36 PM
 #6

DO you ever succeeded?
As far as I know, most of exchange only demand 1 confirmation.

I haven't even tried. With my current balance of 0 BTC it's quite hard.
tadakaluri
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February 09, 2015, 01:14:30 PM
 #7

Is it really works?  Any one have experience/experiment with it?
ForexTE
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February 09, 2015, 01:31:26 PM
 #8

Great idea...but does it work? Anyone? Unless I need to try this first.
noma
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February 09, 2015, 01:35:13 PM
 #9

Great idea...but does it work? Anyone? Unless I need to try this first.

You could always try it with a smaller amount. And welcome to bitcointalk forums Wink

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arbitrage001
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February 09, 2015, 05:53:19 PM
 #10

DO you ever succeeded?
As far as I know, most of exchange only demand 1 confirmation.

I haven't even tried. With my current balance of 0 BTC it's quite hard.

Could break btc-e if it work.
countryfree
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February 09, 2015, 05:59:41 PM
 #11

Look at the following scenario:

I send 1'000 BTC to an exchange. After 6 confirmations my account is credited and I buy 1'000 BTC worth of altcoins and withdraw them. Then I create a double-spending transaction that sends 50% of those bitcoins to another my address and 50% as the transaction fee.

What will rational miners do? Depends on the amount of the fee and number of confirmations I think. It would be interesting to see the formula that tells what values are enough to convince 51% of the miners to re-mine the last blocks...

A rational miner would not process a transaction with a 500 BTC fee. It just stinks. You think right away that there's something wrong.

I used to be a citizen and a taxpayer. Those days are long gone.
LiQio
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February 09, 2015, 06:03:38 PM
 #12

Look at the following scenario:

I send 1'000 BTC to an exchange. After 6 confirmations my account is credited and I buy 1'000 BTC worth of altcoins and withdraw them. Then I create a double-spending transaction that sends 50% of those bitcoins to another my address and 50% as the transaction fee.

What will rational miners do? Depends on the amount of the fee and number of confirmations I think. It would be interesting to see the formula that tells what values are enough to convince 51% of the miners to re-mine the last blocks...

A rational miner would not process a transaction with a 500 BTC fee. It just stinks. You think right away that there's something wrong.


Assuming that you mine using software what rule/boundary does your software use to determine a non-stinking fee?
Come-from-Beyond (OP)
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February 09, 2015, 06:05:38 PM
 #13

Could break btc-e if it work.

For BTC-e even 3 confirms would be enough...
oblivi
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February 09, 2015, 06:18:55 PM
 #14

1 confirmation is enough. I havent seen anyone having problems like double spending, like in ever.
dsly
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February 09, 2015, 06:19:32 PM
 #15

Wait, but even if you were to offer a high fees, do double sends get 3 confirms on the blockchain ?
I heard the possibility of that happening was negligible.

Come-from-Beyond (OP)
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February 09, 2015, 06:31:08 PM
 #16

Wait, but even if you were to offer a high fees, do double sends get 3 confirms on the blockchain ?
I heard the possibility of that happening was negligible.

First I get 6 (3) confirmations and then force majority of miners to abandon this branch. In this case the 2nd transaction will be included into the blockchain forever.
cr1776
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February 09, 2015, 06:46:15 PM
 #17

...<snip>
The only problem I see is a 51% attack. However, a 51% attack would probably lead to bitcoin losing a lot of value and therefore the 500 BTC would be worth a lot less, so the risk doing this cannot be calculated.
Well, pools could also cooperate to rake in the 500 BTC and split the money. If most pool participate, the mainchain would get almost no more blocks and the fork would be over soon. This could be an attack thats actually worth is for pools, because it seems like there is a consensus in the network and only a few miners are on "the wrong" chain.
However, even with this you don't know what it might cause to teh price, it's just the attack that is most likely to succeed without destroying the value of the fee.

This. 

Without a 51% attack, it is a non issue.  I won't rehash what he said, but whomever tried a 51% attack - in this scenario or any other one - would be destroying what they are trying to steal.  And a pool that was complicit in it would lose their composite miners quite quickly and probably put themselves out of business.  It isn't as simple as it seems.

ebliever
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February 09, 2015, 06:56:48 PM
 #18

A rational miner is going to attempt to sabotage the system for possible short term gain? If he succeeds, the coins are soon going to be worthless. Now the "rational" miner's hardware is also worthless.

Actual "rational" miners won't build on the attacker's chain because they don't want to throw away their very real hardware investment. Pool operators aren't going to build on this guy's chain either (they understand that their hardware can be "taken" from them at any moment).

To pull this off you need to buy enough soon-to-be-worthless hardware to 51% the network. So we are back to the same old 51% attack discussion. Good job OP!

+1

We don't need virtuous miners, we just need a mining community that is not completely boneheaded and idiotic. Who would be complicit in such a scheme for a small short-term gain, which would create a major breach of trust and destroy confidence in bitcoin, causing the value of BTC to tank? Major bitcoin miners (such as would need to be involved here to have any chance of success) have millions of $ invested in hardware, which would all be wasted if the proceeds of their mining became worthless because of scheming like this.

Luke 12:15-21

Ephesians 2:8-9
Come-from-Beyond (OP)
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February 09, 2015, 06:59:27 PM
 #19

To pull this off you need to buy enough soon-to-be-worthless hardware to 51% the network. So we are back to the same old 51% attack discussion. Good job OP!

What about cloud mining contracts? Should we start worrying about my scenario after total cloud mining power exceeds 50%?
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February 09, 2015, 07:00:50 PM
 #20

This will not happen. People think that it is easy to trick the network, well it is not.
You're making inexperienced people fear Bitcoin for no valid reason..

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