Dirty coins

[teukon]

Not entirely true, as that unspent output need never be touched.  I can move my other coins which I had in this address to another which is now clean, without touching the dirty dust that you sent me.  

If I send it to a cold wallet address of an exchange where another 7000 BTC are stored, is it still simple to sort it out?

Of course, if received to a fresh address it as manageable.

It makes no difference.  Bitcoins at an address are not automatically mixed together.  As aantonopoulis says, you can just ignore the attackers output.  Some wallets include the feature "coin control" which makes this much easier to do.

[1714157782]

1714157782

[1714157782]

1714157782

[1714157782]

1714157782

[Borisz]

Not entirely true, as that unspent output need never be touched.  I can move my other coins which I had in this address to another which is now clean, without touching the dirty dust that you sent me.  

If I send it to a cold wallet address of an exchange where another 7000 BTC are stored, is it still simple to sort it out?

Of course, if received to a fresh address it as manageable.

It makes no difference.  Bitcoins at an address are not automatically mixed together.  As aantonopoulis says, you can just ignore the attackers output.  Some wallets include the feature "coin control" which makes this much easier to do.

ok, I see. Thanks!

[R2D221]

Uhh no you would be completely wrong. I only need one scenario where it is useful. You have it backwards.

If I'm a criminal and I find a flaw in the legal system, do you think I would still go the obvious way and get caught? Once there's a flaw, everyone will start to use it and the system is just a big curtain. Unless the flaw can be fixed (and there's no way to “fix” coin mixing as far as I'm aware), then all effort is futile.

I didn't say what i want is a solution, it is simply a way to do some basic due dilligence.

Yes, but your proposal will help filter exactly zero criminals in the long run, because everyone will be using mixing services before spending their stolen coins.

[R2D221]

I am not fully aware of how mixing services work so if someone could explain or link me to a site that explains this it would be a big help.

Either you merge your coins with others in a single output and then split it differently, or use a reserve of unrelated outputs to redistribute them.

Thanks for the link, it confirmed the basic knowledge i already had of coin mixing, i will look into this further when not at work.
1 question, if the coins going into the mixing service are already marked won't they have to pass on the coins in the future?
Just say i want to mix my non marked coins for whatever reason then get back coins marked 'bitstamp hack' or similar i would not be very happy.
 

That doesn't happen, because outputs are merged and split, losing track of their original addresses.

[DieJohnny]

Uhh no you would be completely wrong. I only need one scenario where it is useful. You have it backwards.

If I'm a criminal and I find a flaw in the legal system, do you think I would still go the obvious way and get caught? Once there's a flaw, everyone will start to use it and the system is just a big curtain. Unless the flaw can be fixed (and there's no way to “fix” coin mixing as far as I'm aware), then all effort is futile.

I didn't say what i want is a solution, it is simply a way to do some basic due dilligence.

Yes, but your proposal will help filter exactly zero criminals in the long run, because everyone will be using mixing services before spending their stolen coins.

zero says you, more than zero says me

[R2D221]

Uhh no you would be completely wrong. I only need one scenario where it is useful. You have it backwards.

If I'm a criminal and I find a flaw in the legal system, do you think I would still go the obvious way and get caught? Once there's a flaw, everyone will start to use it and the system is just a big curtain. Unless the flaw can be fixed (and there's no way to “fix” coin mixing as far as I'm aware), then all effort is futile.

I didn't say what i want is a solution, it is simply a way to do some basic due dilligence.

Yes, but your proposal will help filter exactly zero criminals in the long run, because everyone will be using mixing services before spending their stolen coins.

zero says you, more than zero says me

How many more than zero? That's the important issue here.

[brendan.f]

wasn't this the whole point of btc?
at some point all coins become tainted, don't they?

[rondalark]

why couldnt you just use a mixer?

[Melds]

Yes, but your proposal will help filter exactly zero criminals in the long run, because everyone will be using mixing services before spending their stolen coins.

I believe this will likely be the case

[onemorebtc]

if you use a mixer all of your coins will look tainted...
a mixer doesnt wash them: it just distributes the taint more equally

i dont think there is an alternative to monero of you want to be anon (transactions and balances are anon btw)

[v.mariette]

if you use a mixer all of your coins will look tainted...
a mixer doesnt wash them: it just distributes the taint more equally

i dont think there is an alternative to monero of you want to be anon (transactions and balances are anon btw)

what is so special with monero?

[onemorebtc]

if you use a mixer all of your coins will look tainted...
a mixer doesnt wash them: it just distributes the taint more equally

i dont think there is an alternative to monero of you want to be anon (transactions and balances are anon btw)

what is so special with monero?

no public ledger (but i dont want to advertise it here... please just search for their ann thread )

bitcoin is great but it wont ever be anon - imho even sidechains cant fix this

[B.A.S.]

I don't understand why tainted BTC would/should be a problem.

This article is a few years old now (and from the Daily Mail --near tabloid quality), but it illustrates my point. Dirty BTC should not deter anyone from spending it/accepting it. Every day fiat is used to buy numerous illegal things and then can be used to by toothpaste the next day. Why should this be a BTC user's problem or even a problem at all?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1241775/Every-British-bank-note-contaminated-cocaine-weeks-entering-circulation.html


I could see taint analysis as a great forensic technique with regards to criminal investigations. Imagine if someone invented software or a fast computing way to unravel the blockchain to uncover past transactions... Eventually all coins will most likely be linked to a real individual and will have a transaction history attached to a known entity (bank account for instance).

[Borisz]

I don't understand why tainted BTC would/should be a problem.

This article is a few years old now (and from the Daily Mail --near tabloid quality), but it illustrates my point. Dirty BTC should not deter anyone from spending it/accepting it. Every day fiat is used to buy numerous illegal things and then can be used to by toothpaste the next day. Why should this be a BTC user's problem or even a problem at all?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1241775/Every-British-bank-note-contaminated-cocaine-weeks-entering-circulation.html


I could see taint analysis as a great forensic technique with regards to criminal investigations. Imagine if someone invented software or a fast computing way to unravel the blockchain to uncover past transactions... Eventually all coins will most likely be linked to a real individual and will have a transaction history attached to a known entity (bank account for instance).

I agree with you.
If someone wanted completely traceable money that cannot be used for shady purposes, go for credit cards. As you said, people do bad things with cash, but it still exists.

[AtheistAKASaneBrain]

if you use a mixer all of your coins will look tainted...
a mixer doesnt wash them: it just distributes the taint more equally

i dont think there is an alternative to monero of you want to be anon (transactions and balances are anon btw)

what is so special with monero?

no public ledger (but i dont want to advertise it here... please just search for their ann thread )

bitcoin is great but it wont ever be anon - imho even sidechains cant fix this

Black markets will all accept monero in the future, give it time.

[BillyBobZorton]

If I put my dirty coins in a usb wallet and clean the usb wallet with soap, do they become clean coins?

[onemorebtc]

If I put my dirty coins in a usb wallet and clean the usb wallet with soap, do they become clean coins?

yes, because they are gone then

[R2D221]

If I put my dirty coins in a usb wallet and clean the usb wallet with soap, do they become clean coins?

yes, because they are gone then

Actually, I don't think the USB would be damaged at all.

[Erdogan]

The general user of bitcoin will be rather pissed off, if his rightly obtained coins were not accepted somewhere because of taint. So in the aggregate, I think it will not be possible for the enemies of bitcoin to use that as a weapon. Tainting will only work as long as a great majority of users accept the taint and that their coins will at random be declared valueless. And that is not going to happen.

[onemorebtc]

The general user of bitcoin will be rather pissed off, if his rightly obtained coins were not accepted somewhere because of taint. So in the aggregate, I think it will not be possible for the enemies of bitcoin to use that as a weapon. Tainting will only work as long as a great majority of users accept the taint and that their coins will at random be declared valueless. And that is not going to happen.

not true. i'd starting looking for taint as soon as courts state that they will confiscate coins which origins from a theft - i am already curious what happens to coinbase customer who have "tainted coins" (i really hate that word) AFAIK they already have lists (for someone who knows better than me: do they acept coins from a mixer without questions?.