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Author Topic: PrismCoin: 3d etching BTC address in Crystal  (Read 3454 times)
crazy_rabbit (OP)
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July 25, 2012, 09:15:06 PM
Last edit: July 25, 2012, 09:30:31 PM by crazy_rabbit
 #1

I was looking recently at someone do this at a tourist location in Venice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ko5RE2oh00

I instantly thought- how cool that would be to do for Bitcoin. Etch via Laser QR codes of bitcoin addresses and Private keys into the crystal. For example you could perhaps even do multiple layers of bitcoin addresses on on plane, and private keys on another, and using a special planer light source illuminate only one at a time. If your light source was super thin and planer, you could potentially store tens, hundreds or thousands of addresses in the crystal depending on the technical limits of the system.

Could make for an extremely cool "cold storage" system. One could image the sense of power from opening a safe deposite box to find only a crystal cube. Smiley

Of course, unless you do this at home- how do you provide a service and securely include the private key?

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July 25, 2012, 10:13:10 PM
 #2

I was looking recently at someone do this at a tourist location in Venice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ko5RE2oh00

I instantly thought- how cool that would be to do for Bitcoin. Etch via Laser QR codes of bitcoin addresses and Private keys into the crystal. For example you could perhaps even do multiple layers of bitcoin addresses on on plane, and private keys on another, and using a special planer light source illuminate only one at a time. If your light source was super thin and planer, you could potentially store tens, hundreds or thousands of addresses in the crystal depending on the technical limits of the system.

Could make for an extremely cool "cold storage" system. One could image the sense of power from opening a safe deposite box to find only a crystal cube. Smiley

Of course, unless you do this at home- how do you provide a service and securely include the private key?

I have been thinking about this same problem for the past year.

Cold storage that is not stored on electronic devices.

Sure paper wallets are cool but you kinda need to have the same info in a lot of different places.

Only problem is if there was a fire, the paper is gone.

I have been thinking of engraving an encrypted private key in titanium or something else that is kinda apocalyptic proof.

So man. I am on the same page as you!

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July 30, 2012, 08:28:18 AM
 #3

Titanium: Melting point of 1668°C (which is ok), but will erode pretty quickly in harsh environment (saltwater, electrochemical corrosion etc).
If you are serious, go for stainless steel :-)
(And solder it in between two pieces of copper or something)
This would not be a "cold wallet" or similar, but more of a last-resort-backup you don't actually intent to use anytime soon. But maybe your inheritants will be happy to find it in xx years.

Ente
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July 30, 2012, 05:13:39 PM
 #4

Titanium: Melting point of 1668°C (which is ok), but will erode pretty quickly in harsh environment (saltwater, electrochemical corrosion etc).
If you are serious, go for stainless steel :-)
(And solder it in between two pieces of copper or something)
This would not be a "cold wallet" or similar, but more of a last-resort-backup you don't actually intent to use anytime soon. But maybe your inheritants will be happy to find it in xx years.

Ente

I would be interested in a Titanium wallet.

The question is, should we have a private key encrypted or should we have SEVERAL private keys encrypted into a single AES block that we will have engraved?

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DeathAndTaxes
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July 30, 2012, 06:23:54 PM
 #5

If you want a lasting material go with tungsten.

Melting point is significantly higher than structure fires, it is non reactive in most environments, and has high toughness.

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July 30, 2012, 07:38:21 PM
 #6

I can see some beings or humans in the future unearthing these metal pieces with long strings of numbers and letters trying to figure out what it is.

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July 31, 2012, 07:22:04 AM
 #7

I would be interested in a Titanium wallet.

The question is, should we have a private key encrypted or should we have SEVERAL private keys encrypted into a single AES block that we will have engraved?

I would, ahem, suggest, y'know, to have an encrypted version on your computer, as a working version. Engrave the private key unencrypted and directly onto your metal. Keep this in a safe place. Vault, buried, some family member's place. This would only be used in case all encrypted "computer" versions vanish in a catastrophic event. More like an insurance than a cold wallet..

If you want a lasting material go with tungsten.
Melting point is significantly higher than structure fires, it is non reactive in most environments, and has high toughness.

Tough? It is? At least Tungsten Carbide (the stuff "tungsten" rings/bands are made of) is brittle. Pure tungsten might indeed be tough, though.
Good luck engraving it. I would guess a diamond tip engraver (preferably) or a laser (no deep engrave) is necessary..

Ente
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July 31, 2012, 07:26:08 AM
 #8

or a laser (no deep engrave)

You obviously need a more powerful laser Wink.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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July 31, 2012, 08:29:25 AM
 #9

TIL the 10 Commandments were actually private keys carved into stone tablets.

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July 31, 2012, 09:08:16 AM
 #10

TIL the 10 Commandments were actually private keys carved into stone tablets.

SHA256("Thou shall not steal")

..has some irony in it.. heh

Ente
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July 31, 2012, 10:12:14 AM
 #11

Why not diamond instead of tungsten?
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July 31, 2012, 10:43:29 AM
 #12

Why not diamond instead of tungsten?

Because of the high refractive index.



Well, in case you are indeed serious:
Sure, go on, and aquire a diamond large enough for that. Then have one flat side on it. I suggest at least as large as a stamp for readability. Go on and engravve or laser your keys on it. And start over again once you transfer the funds somewhere else or the like :-)
But yes, technically there do exist enough bitcoins to make all of this worthwile.. Even more once you try to aquire a significant part of them.

Oh, and: Diamond starts burning over 700°C, is brittle, and will have a low reading contrast.

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July 31, 2012, 10:54:35 AM
 #13

Why not diamond instead of tungsten?

Because of the high refractive index.



Well, in case you are indeed serious:
Sure, go on, and aquire a diamond large enough for that. Then have one flat side on it. I suggest at least as large as a stamp for readability. Go on and engravve or laser your keys on it. And start over again once you transfer the funds somewhere else or the like :-)
But yes, technically there do exist enough bitcoins to make all of this worthwile.. Even more once you try to aquire a significant part of them.

Oh, and: Diamond starts burning over 700°C, is brittle, and will have a low reading contrast.

Ente

There is a Canadian diamond mine that laser etches their diamonds with a polar bear. This makes it easy to tell the difference from a Canadian diamond and a conflict diamond. Add the laser etching to man made diamonds like Gemesis makes and you have a tiny bitcoin wallet. I don't like diamonds since I see them as just shiny rocks but for long term bitcoin storage they would be ideal.

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July 31, 2012, 11:01:04 AM
 #14

Why not laser/ engrave the private key onto a 10g gold ingot ?

Something like this will cost you around 100BTC:
http://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-bars/10-gram-gold-bar/umicore-10-gram-gold-bar/

It is 31mm by 18mm (1.22 inches x 0.71inches) so enough space on the back for a private key.

Not fireproof but inert and should your parachute not open on your next sky dive your next of kin are unlikely to throw it out in the trash when they go through your stuff.

If 100BTC is too steep, on the same site a 5g ingot is 24mm x 14mm so I expect a private key will still fit. Half the price !

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July 31, 2012, 11:05:03 AM
 #15

I was thinking of synthetic diamonds, but if temperature is a problem then tungsten is better.
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July 31, 2012, 12:31:39 PM
 #16

Get a cheap 2.5D milling machine and engrave it into a stainless steel plate.

Keep in mind that these kind of things only protect against some personal disaster. If there is an epic solar storm and all computers are fried the blockchain will be gone and the private key useless.
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July 31, 2012, 12:37:28 PM
 #17

Keep in mind that these kind of things only protect against some personal disaster. If there is an epic solar storm and all computers are fried the blockchain will be gone and the private key useless.

Which is why I keep a printed copy of the blockchain.

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July 31, 2012, 12:54:44 PM
 #18

Keep in mind that these kind of things only protect against some personal disaster. If there is an epic solar storm and all computers are fried the blockchain will be gone and the private key useless.

Which is why I keep a printed copy of the blockchain.

You did print out 3 Gigabytes of data?
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July 31, 2012, 01:02:14 PM
 #19

Keep in mind that these kind of things only protect against some personal disaster. If there is an epic solar storm and all computers are fried the blockchain will be gone and the private key useless.

Which is why I keep a printed copy of the blockchain.

You did print out 3 Gigabytes of data?
3GB? Cool, that would even include the next half year! Maybe one should take a look and see if pirate did pay in the future... Cheesy
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July 31, 2012, 01:06:22 PM
 #20

Get a cheap 2.5D milling machine and engrave it into a stainless steel plate.

Keep in mind that these kind of things only protect against some personal disaster. If there is an epic solar storm and all computers are fried the blockchain will be gone and the private key useless.

You could probably do the engraving with a cheap dremel drill (the little handheld ones sold for 'crafts') and a homemade pantograph for size reduction of the text:


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July 31, 2012, 01:07:04 PM
Last edit: October 25, 2013, 10:50:31 AM by deepceleron
 #21

If you want a lasting material go with tungsten.

Melting point is significantly higher than structure fires, it is non reactive in most environments, and has high toughness.
=

Laser engrave private keys on a tungsten bucking bar. The bank can burn down around it and it will still be readable.



Which is why I keep a printed copy of the blockchain.

Seems reasonable:

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July 31, 2012, 01:11:14 PM
 #22

Well it seems my bitcoin folder is fragmented/and or redundant  Tongue

The most secure method would probably be sony HD-MD if that weren't discontinued. MO-Drives are more reliable than DVDs, but for any reasonable effort that is probably the best thing.
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July 31, 2012, 01:32:15 PM
 #23

Laser etching it into a diamond that you then make into a wedding ring would be the ultimate sign of love.

The ring could then be passed down generation by generation.

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July 31, 2012, 02:37:32 PM
 #24

Well it seems my bitcoin folder is fragmented/and or redundant  Tongue

The most secure method would probably be sony HD-MD if that weren't discontinued. MO-Drives are more reliable than DVDs, but for any reasonable effort that is probably the best thing.
I have dozens of these. Wanna buy? Only problem is that they are extremely slow when writing data, and limited to 1GB each. I also have an enormous box full of SD-MD discs, and some even have music on them.

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July 31, 2012, 04:07:45 PM
 #25

Well it seems my bitcoin folder is fragmented/and or redundant  Tongue

The most secure method would probably be sony HD-MD if that weren't discontinued. MO-Drives are more reliable than DVDs, but for any reasonable effort that is probably the best thing.

HD-DVD is, as far as I remember, similar technique (magnetooptical). It was designed as a robust backup medium. Eventually several DVD burner wrote all three formats. No idea how it is now, but I am sure it is still widely used in the industry.

Laser engrave private keys on a tungsten bucking bar. The bank can burn down around it and it will still be readable.


*types off the privkey*
*imports into wallet*
*finds 168 BTC*
*sends 168 BTC back home*
*runs off laughing maniacly*

Ente
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July 31, 2012, 05:01:59 PM
 #26

Fantasizing about laser engraving on tungsten or diamond is a lot of fun but I've been thinking about really doing this.  Clearly a major issue is that you need to DIY not pay someone else to do it because if you pay someone, you cannot ever quite trust your key.  So it seems to me that the most practical solution is to buy 2 "blank" casascius coins and a hand engraver (about 3 BTC).  Engrave the private key on one, the public on the other and then glue (or maybe solder) them together so the private key is inside.  That would survive most fires... would filling the engraving with solder increase the longevity by stopping rust?


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July 31, 2012, 05:41:10 PM
 #27

Fantasizing about laser engraving on tungsten or diamond is a lot of fun but I've been thinking about really doing this.  Clearly a major issue is that you need to DIY not pay someone else to do it because if you pay someone, you cannot ever quite trust your key.  So it seems to me that the most practical solution is to buy 2 "blank" casascius coins and a hand engraver (about 3 BTC).  Engrave the private key on one, the public on the other and then glue (or maybe solder) them together so the private key is inside.  That would survive most fires... would filling the engraving with solder increase the longevity by stopping rust?


Now we are talking!
Well, Casascius coins are made of brass, which corrodes relatively easily, and melts around 900°C if I remember right.
Just water won't let brass rust, I think. The quickest way would be to let brass touch some other metal which is either a lot more or a lot less noble than brass (copper and zinc). Have both metals touch water, aka electrolyte, and voila, have a free battery element. The lesser noble metal will dissolve.
Get a small disc (aka coin blank) of stainless steel, engrave the priv key into it, solder it in between two coins. Or in between one coin and a copper backside with a recession.
Bonus points for engraving the firstbits onto the outer side.
De-soldering is easy to get the key, but will be destructive and noticed. Not that it would help a lot at that point, if the cold-coin-wallet is stolen..

You will be able to engrave any metal with a cheap tungsten carbide tip for a dremel. Or just bring everything to a small jeweler's shop or the like. If there isn't a young guy playing on his smartphone behind the counter when you enter, you should be fine. Relatively! :-)

Ente
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August 01, 2012, 03:00:20 AM
 #28

I was thinking of doing something similar with QR codes and a RepRap 3D printer. Printed ABS should make for a durable and waterproof private or public key token.

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August 01, 2012, 03:20:05 AM
 #29

Well it seems my bitcoin folder is fragmented/and or redundant  Tongue

The most secure method would probably be sony HD-MD if that weren't discontinued. MO-Drives are more reliable than DVDs, but for any reasonable effort that is probably the best thing.

HD-DVD is, as far as I remember, similar technique (magnetooptical). It was designed as a robust backup medium. Eventually several DVD burner wrote all three formats. No idea how it is now, but I am sure it is still widely used in the industry.

Laser engrave private keys on a tungsten bucking bar. The bank can burn down around it and it will still be readable.


*types off the privkey*
*imports into wallet*
*finds 168 BTC*
*sends 168 BTC back home*
*runs off laughing maniacly*

Ente

Jesus!  this made me laugh manicaly..  Cheesy  awesome..  lmao

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August 01, 2012, 09:10:39 PM
 #30

Laser engrave private keys on a tungsten bucking bar. The bank can burn down around it and it will still be readable.

*types off the privkey*
*imports into wallet*
*finds 168 BTC*
*sends 168 BTC back home*
*runs off laughing maniacly*

Ente

Jesus!  this made me laugh manicaly..  Cheesy  awesome..  lmao

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August 01, 2012, 09:18:05 PM
 #31

Laser engrave private keys on a tungsten bucking bar. The bank can burn down around it and it will still be readable.

*types off the privkey*
*imports into wallet*
*finds 168 BTC*
*sends 168 BTC back home*
*runs off laughing maniacly*

Ente

Jesus!  this made me laugh manicaly..  Cheesy  awesome..  lmao

Unlikely story: http://blockchain.info/address/1FuLUKEYji8msSWvLcz62jRExWBYkAYxLe
Haha, awesome.

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August 01, 2012, 10:03:42 PM
 #32

Don't forget about AES encryption too!

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August 02, 2012, 02:28:16 PM
 #33

I've never used a 3d printer, but would it be possible to print a hollow cube with the private key QR code printed inside?

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August 02, 2012, 04:16:12 PM
 #34

I can see some beings or humans in the future unearthing these metal pieces with long strings of numbers and letters trying to figure out what it is.


And being totally unable to figure it out. Imagine the theories. It would be worse than the speculation forum.

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August 04, 2012, 09:37:12 AM
 #35

I've never used a 3d printer, but would it be possible to print a hollow cube with the private key QR code printed inside?

Now thats a clever idea!
Yes, definitely possible. Most systems an have different materials, for example one "real" ABS building material, and one blank material to fill and support hollow parts or overhangs.
In this case you could not remove the inner fill material, but that wouldn't be a problem anyway.

I like this idea.
However, you could make a similar token by laminating the key between different sheets of paper/plastic, maybe with a hologram or the like as secure top layer? Or something like a scratch card?
..For all the people who don't have a 3D printer yet, anyway.

Ente
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August 06, 2012, 03:31:10 PM
 #36

I've never used a 3d printer, but would it be possible to print a hollow cube with the private key QR code printed inside?

Now thats a clever idea!
Yes, definitely possible. Most systems an have different materials, for example one "real" ABS building material, and one blank material to fill and support hollow parts or overhangs.
In this case you could not remove the inner fill material, but that wouldn't be a problem anyway.

I like this idea.
However, you could make a similar token by laminating the key between different sheets of paper/plastic, maybe with a hologram or the like as secure top layer? Or something like a scratch card?
..For all the people who don't have a 3D printer yet, anyway.

Ente
I just figured that the real problem is that no matter how tamper-evident you make a bill or coin (or whatever), someone could open it and then just remake it.

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