|
elephantas1
|
 |
February 15, 2015, 08:19:39 PM |
|
Please explain why Bitcoin is not fungible.
Would you buy bitcoins stolen from bter or mtgox for the same price as coins on exchanges? There are sellers out there.... I believe you can get a decent discount  uhmm can you give example of at least one seller? i have never seen one on forum |
|
|
|
|
|
R2D221
|
|
February 15, 2015, 08:25:30 PM |
|
Please explain why Bitcoin is not fungible.
Would you buy bitcoins stolen from bter or mtgox for the same price as coins on exchanges? There are sellers out there.... I believe you can get a decent discount I have no way of knowing they are stolen. I can trace the transactions (well, as a matter of fact, I don't know how), but that will just be an assumption ready than irrefutable truth. |
An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
|
|
|
|
thelibertycap
|
|
February 15, 2015, 08:34:13 PM |
|
Please explain why Bitcoin is not fungible.
Would you buy bitcoins stolen from bter or mtgox for the same price as coins on exchanges? There are sellers out there.... I believe you can get a decent discount I have no way of knowing they are stolen. I can trace the transactions (well, as a matter of fact, I don't know how), but that will just be an assumption ready than irrefutable truth. bter: 7170 BTC got stolen from our cold wallet in this transaction: https://blockchain.info/tx/f5b0363f03e1ed8bb812c135361ea93590c831ce9f13a3750be1b93575baccc6if those coins move into your wallet and you try to sell on an exchange, you will be suspect no 1. bitcoin's transactions are a public ledger, everybody sees where the coins are moving Edit: "suspect" is a very weak word... it's like you have big pile of cocaine at home and try to tell the cops you know nothing about it |
|
|
|
|
|
thelibertycap
|
|
February 15, 2015, 08:35:31 PM |
|
Please explain why Bitcoin is not fungible.
Would you buy bitcoins stolen from bter or mtgox for the same price as coins on exchanges? There are sellers out there.... I believe you can get a decent discount uhmm can you give example of at least one seller? i have never seen one on forum you think hackers that stole millions in bitcoin will advertise here? such people are usually not stupid. |
|
|
|
|
|
R2D221
|
|
February 15, 2015, 08:40:33 PM |
|
7170 BTC got stolen from our cold wallet in this transaction: https://blockchain.info/tx/f5b0363f03e1ed8bb812c135361ea93590c831ce9f13a3750be1b93575baccc6if those coins move into your wallet and you try to sell on an exchange, you will be suspect no 1. bitcoin's transactions are a public ledger, everybody sees where the coins are moving Edit: "suspect" is a very weak word... it's like you have big pile of cocaine at home and try to tell the cops you know nothing about it Thanks for making me a suspect of a crime I didn't commit. Meanwhile, the actual thief of the 7170 BTC will roam free as nothing has happened. |
An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
|
|
|
|
thelibertycap
|
|
February 15, 2015, 08:46:27 PM |
|
7170 BTC got stolen from our cold wallet in this transaction: https://blockchain.info/tx/f5b0363f03e1ed8bb812c135361ea93590c831ce9f13a3750be1b93575baccc6if those coins move into your wallet and you try to sell on an exchange, you will be suspect no 1. bitcoin's transactions are a public ledger, everybody sees where the coins are moving Edit: "suspect" is a very weak word... it's like you have big pile of cocaine at home and try to tell the cops you know nothing about it Thanks for making me a suspect of a crime I didn't commit. Meanwhile, the actual thief of the 7170 BTC will roam free as nothing has happened. life is hard  if you bought those coins you had to pay with cash (bank transfer if the hacker is stupid) and i am sure if you are reasonable with the government officials and lead them to the seller, you would not be charged. that's what's actually nice about bitcoin. thieves can be caught when they start cashing out... |
|
|
|
|
|
R2D221
|
|
February 15, 2015, 08:51:40 PM |
|
7170 BTC got stolen from our cold wallet in this transaction: https://blockchain.info/tx/f5b0363f03e1ed8bb812c135361ea93590c831ce9f13a3750be1b93575baccc6if those coins move into your wallet and you try to sell on an exchange, you will be suspect no 1. bitcoin's transactions are a public ledger, everybody sees where the coins are moving Edit: "suspect" is a very weak word... it's like you have big pile of cocaine at home and try to tell the cops you know nothing about it Thanks for making me a suspect of a crime I didn't commit. Meanwhile, the actual thief of the 7170 BTC will roam free as nothing has happened. life is hard if you bought those coins you had to pay with cash (bank transfer if the hacker is stupid) and i am sure if you are reasonable with the government officials and lead them to the seller, you would not be charged. that's what's actually nice about bitcoin. thieves can be caught when they start cashing out... OK, so you're telling me I'm free to buy those bitcoins as long as I help the government catch the bad guys. That seems reasonable, and it also means that Bitcoin remains fungible. |
An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
|
|
|
|
thelibertycap
|
|
February 15, 2015, 09:03:19 PM |
|
7170 BTC got stolen from our cold wallet in this transaction: https://blockchain.info/tx/f5b0363f03e1ed8bb812c135361ea93590c831ce9f13a3750be1b93575baccc6if those coins move into your wallet and you try to sell on an exchange, you will be suspect no 1. bitcoin's transactions are a public ledger, everybody sees where the coins are moving Edit: "suspect" is a very weak word... it's like you have big pile of cocaine at home and try to tell the cops you know nothing about it Thanks for making me a suspect of a crime I didn't commit. Meanwhile, the actual thief of the 7170 BTC will roam free as nothing has happened. life is hard if you bought those coins you had to pay with cash (bank transfer if the hacker is stupid) and i am sure if you are reasonable with the government officials and lead them to the seller, you would not be charged. that's what's actually nice about bitcoin. thieves can be caught when they start cashing out... OK, so you're telling me I'm free to buy those bitcoins as long as I help the government catch the bad guys. That seems reasonable, and it also means that Bitcoin remains fungible. You are a tough nut to crack http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-tracking-proposal-divides-bitcoin-community/http://www.coindesk.com/bonafide-raises-850k-build-reputation-system-bitcoin/ |
|
|
|
|
|
R2D221
|
|
February 15, 2015, 09:10:54 PM |
|
I'm disappointed that Mike Hearn actually believes that coin marking is a good idea.
|
An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
|
|
|
Kazimir
Legendary
 Offline
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1003
|
|
February 15, 2015, 10:40:31 PM |
|
LOL, nope, bitcoin is not 100% fungible. Yes it is. Suppose I have one bitcoin on address A (stolen from MtGox), and one on address B (legally purchased from Coinbase). I now transfer them both to address C. And then from C, I transfer one bitcoin to address P and one to address Q (in a single tx). Which one is the stolen bitcoin: the one on P or Q? |
|
|
|
Kazimir
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1003
|
|
February 15, 2015, 10:43:29 PM |
|
maybe if you repeat that long enough, it will become true. It's already true. See my example above. |
|
|
|
bitllionaire
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1000
|
|
February 15, 2015, 10:44:23 PM |
|
I think they don't provide privacy, the privacy is only provided by you being careful with your transactions
|
|
|
|
|
|
thelibertycap
|
|
February 16, 2015, 09:17:58 AM |
|
LOL, nope, bitcoin is not 100% fungible. Yes it is. Suppose I have one bitcoin on address A (stolen from MtGox), and one on address B (legally purchased from Coinbase). I now transfer them both to address C. And then from C, I transfer one bitcoin to address P and one to address Q (in a single tx). Which one is the stolen bitcoin: the one on P or Q? If Bitcoin is 100% fungible then these guys are doing some crazy magic distinguishing one bitcoin from the another: Sanitizing Bitcoin: This Company Wants To Track 'Clean' Bitcoin Accounts It’s a tracking system for Bitcoin ownership that would theoretically weed out ‘bad actors’ – like the Dread Pirate Roberts – from the legitimate Bitcoin business world. Their plan is to compile a database of the known identities associated with Bitcoin addresses in the hope that Coin Validation will become the one-stop-identity shop for law enforcement when trying to find out who’s doing something nefarious with Bitcoin, while providing a red-flag system for businesses who have customers trying to use Bitcoin that’s associated with illicit use. http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/13/sanitizing-bitcoin-coin-validation/- Lets take your example - if I own the wallet C and try to convert all those bitcoins to cash, do you think everything would go smooth and nobody would ask questions because every bitcoin is like any other bitcoin? If you said bitcoin is 90% fungible I would have said nothing but 100%? Obviously not. |
|
|
|
|
|
R2D221
|
|
February 16, 2015, 12:13:04 PM |
|
Definitely, what they are doing is crazy.
|
An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
|
|
|
|
R2D221
|
|
February 16, 2015, 12:13:56 PM |
|
Also, banknotes have serial numbers, and I see nobody saying that the dollar is not fungible.
|
An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
|
|
|
Kazimir
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1003
|
|
February 16, 2015, 04:21:16 PM |
|
Lets take your example - if I own the wallet C and try to convert all those bitcoins to cash, do you think everything would go smooth and nobody would ask questions because every bitcoin is like any other bitcoin? I'm not considering wallet C, I'm considering P and Q. Or, similar to the step from A+B to P+Q, you can do the same five or ten more times. You'll end up with an arbitrary number of wallets, which can most definitely be converted to Euros or Dollars without any problem. The only involvement of 'tainted' coins is many steps back in the transaction chain (of which nobody can claim they were already yours at that point), and there's no way to tell 'right' from 'wrong' coins. Besides, you seem to assume you always want to convert bitcoins to fiat. Not true. Any bitcoins I have, legally earned or stolen, I sure as hell would not invest them in feeble, air-funded currencies like EUR or USD. |
|
|
|
bitcoinrocks (OP)
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
|
|
February 16, 2015, 10:31:34 PM |
|
I think they don't provide privacy, the privacy is only provided by you being careful with your transactions
I think this sums it up well, and who wants to be careful with their transactions? Sounds inconvenient. Better to use some kind of a mixer. BTW, why don't the thieves just use a mixer, maybe a CoinJoin mixer? |
|
|
|
|
|
R2D221
|
|
February 16, 2015, 10:33:23 PM |
|
BTW, why don't the thieves just use a mixer, maybe a CoinJoin mixer?
If they know what they're doing, they will do just that. And then, how will I know if money they are sending me was related to the robbery or not? |
An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
|
|
|
bitcoinrocks (OP)
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
|
|
February 16, 2015, 10:33:30 PM |
|
Also Blockchain's Shared Coin uses CoinJoin which (from what I can gather) is a (nearly?) trustless method for mixing which gives it an advantage over a conventional mixing service or exchange.
I personally dont trust blockchain.info very much, so this might very well be bias on my end. Why is that? Is this a widely held opinion? |
|
|
|
|
rich93
Full Member
Offline
Activity: 595
Merit: 101
Chromia - Relational Blockchain
|
|
February 16, 2015, 10:45:02 PM |
|
Also Blockchain's Shared Coin uses CoinJoin which (from what I can gather) is a (nearly?) trustless method for mixing which gives it an advantage over a conventional mixing service or exchange.
I personally dont trust blockchain.info very much, so this might very well be bias on my end. Why is that? Is this a widely held opinion? Maybe because of this. http://www.coindesk.com/good-samaritan-blockchain-hacker-returned-255-btc-speaks/ |
|
|
|
|
