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Author Topic: Best demonstrated efficiency: 1290 Mhash/Joule  (Read 19261 times)
Lethos
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July 29, 2012, 04:45:21 PM
 #61

For those who are not following Block Erupter: Dedicated Mining ASIC Project (Open for Discussion)

Update

Our RTL design, optimization and simulation are finished. We have some data to predict the specification of actual chips after they are manufactured.

Hashrate: 1.25GH/s per chip
Area: 17.5mm^2 per chip
Power Consumption: 13.3W

Note that they are calculated from the front-end design and not accurate enough. But of course the possible difference range won't be large. We will keep our updates.

Fixing the url for you. Interesting numbers at 130nm, very promising as well for the future of ASIC development.
So If it was shrunk down to 45nm it would energy wise (optimal) result in a saving that result in about ~2 Watt chip, that does 1.25Gh/s.
Guess I wasn't that far off, when I estimated 1Gh/s for a single usb powered Chip based on a 45nm design. Still estimates, but at least an estimate I could believe.

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mrb
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July 31, 2012, 05:40:53 AM
 #62

So If it was shrunk down to 45nm it would energy wise (optimal) result in a saving that result in about ~2 Watt chip, that does 1.25Gh/s.
Guess I wasn't that far off, when I estimated 1Gh/s for a single usb powered Chip based on a 45nm design. Still estimates, but at least an estimate I could believe.

More precisely, scaled to 45nm, Bit Erupter's chip would give 1.96 Ghash/s at 2.5 Watt.
This is 787 Mhash/sec and slightly better(!) than my prediction of 700 Mhash/sec for BFL's ASIC.
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July 31, 2012, 08:36:16 AM
 #63


If BFL uses standard cell, I think they would have to go with 45nm to have chance to meet their spec.
What is the mask cost of 45nm these days?

But I figure they will go with a 45nm multiple wafer run, ie several designs on one wafer to cut down the initial cost.
They will quickly  get delivery problems but now they have proven their product.
I guess the next step is to get enough preorders by then to cover the cost of a full mask set.

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July 31, 2012, 10:40:02 AM
 #64

So If it was shrunk down to 45nm it would energy wise (optimal) result in a saving that result in about ~2 Watt chip, that does 1.25Gh/s.
Guess I wasn't that far off, when I estimated 1Gh/s for a single usb powered Chip based on a 45nm design. Still estimates, but at least an estimate I could believe.

More precisely, scaled to 45nm, Bit Erupter's chip would give 1.96 Ghash/s at 2.5 Watt.
This is 787 Mhash/sec and slightly better(!) than my prediction of 700 Mhash/sec for BFL's ASIC.

It would not be a good idea to run a chip at 2.5 watts, a bit below 2 watts is a lot wiser, when a usb slot variance can easily dip below 2.5 watts.
Also the chip alone is not the only thing which will be drawing power, you have to take that into account, hence why the design should be below 2watts.

Only reason why your prediction "fits" is because you just assumed they'll be using 2 usb ports to power it and also apparently going over the spec of those usb slots are capable of providing.

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August 01, 2012, 09:05:07 AM
 #65

It would not be a good idea to run a chip at 2.5 watts, a bit below 2 watts is a lot wiser, when a usb slot variance can easily dip below 2.5 watts.
Also the chip alone is not the only thing which will be drawing power, you have to take that into account, hence why the design should be below 2watts.

Spec says 500mA, so you can draw 500mA. There is no such thing as "slot variance"; you are making that up...

You would be a pretty bad designer if you needed 0.5W or more to merely power ancillary logic. At most there will be a ~5-10% loss due to the 5V->Vcore power conversion (I doubt the ASIC will run on 5V). The rest (LED) should literally need 0.05W or less. Remember there is no active cooling (it's a coffee warmer). So we are talking about 2.3-2.4W available to the chip.
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August 01, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
 #66

The USB 1.x and 2.0 specifications provide a 5 V supply on a single wire from which connected USB devices may draw power. The specification provides for no more than 5.25 V and no less than 4.75 V (5 V±5%) between the positive and negative bus power lines. For USB 3.0, the voltage supplied by low-powered hub ports is 4.45–5.25 V.

The usb spec, has a 5% variance. That is what I mean. But I won't be continueing in this thread anymore since you clearly taking this very personal to start attacking me for my opinion.

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August 02, 2012, 05:19:20 AM
 #67

I read you too quickly (my bad) and thought you meant 0.5W/2.5W = 20% was the variance. I was denying this.

Yes, ±5% is quite typical for a consumer electronics power spec, and should be implied in all the numbers I quoted, and does not change my point (787 Mhash/J ±5% is still greater than 700 Mhash/J).
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August 03, 2012, 04:35:56 AM
 #68

The Block Erupter 130nm project now claims an estimate of 122 Mhash/Joule: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91173.msg1072887#msg1072887

This is such an improvement, that ~500 Mhash/Joule should be possible at 65nm. Combined with the fact that BFL disclosed that Jalapenos will be wall-powered, after all, I think this makes it very, very likely that BFL is developing at 65nm and not 45nm.

OP updated.
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August 03, 2012, 04:39:18 AM
 #69

The Block Erupter 130nm project now claims an estimate of 122 Mhash/Joule: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91173.msg1072887#msg1072887

This is such an improvement, that ~500 Mhash/Joule should be possible at 65nm. Combined with the fact that BFL disclosed that Jalapenos will be wall-powered, after all, I think this makes it very, very likely that BFL is developing at 65nm.

OP updated.

The Jalapeno is indeed USB powered.  The alternate plug-in refered to by the CSR is the option of an alternate source of power for the heat plate.

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August 03, 2012, 05:27:13 AM
 #70

Argh. OP updated again.
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August 03, 2012, 05:34:04 AM
 #71

The Jalapeno is indeed USB powered.  The alternate plug-in refered to by the CSR is the option of an alternate source of power for the heat plate.
Just what I want, EXTRA heat right on top of my electronics!

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September 18, 2012, 08:52:06 AM
 #72

Maybe OP could be updated with ngzhang's claim of "Avalon" simulation:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110090.msg1200284#msg1200284

160W for 60 Ghash/s ~ 375 Mhash/Joule

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September 30, 2012, 07:30:05 PM
 #73

Maybe OP could be updated with ngzhang's claim of "Avalon" simulation:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110090.msg1200284#msg1200284

160W for 60 Ghash/s ~ 375 Mhash/Joule


this is only a simulation, maybe a big difference between this and the final product.
after the post-simulation, we will have a  much accuracy power value.

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October 28, 2012, 09:25:41 PM
 #74

However you have also made a convenient assumption that it will utilise two usb ports to power it, allowing it to have twice as much power, for a max of 5 watts. That is abit of a stretch to assume that and why the math to me does not add up for it to do 3.5 Gh/s at 2.5W and is what I stated.

See Lethos, I was right. I correctly predicted 3 months ago that it would use 2 USB ports, and BFL confirmed it:

The Jalapeno draws it's power from two USB port connectors.  Both need to be connected to achieve the full 4.5 GH/s performance.  (At the users discretion, a single USB connector can be used if it has a 2nd head split off as is common for use with laptop DVD drives).
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October 29, 2012, 07:41:35 PM
 #75

Quote
And everyone is 100% sure they aren't going to have an external power supply? A small wall wart?

Yep, it's in the prototype photo 1 USB + 1 mini USB (so you don't mix them up one presumes)

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November 07, 2012, 04:56:37 AM
 #76

The Block Erupter 130nm project now claims an estimate of 122 Mhash/Joule: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91173.msg1072887#msg1072887

This is such an improvement, that ~500 Mhash/Joule should be possible at 65nm. Combined with the fact that BFL disclosed that Jalapenos will be wall-powered, after all, I think this makes it very, very likely that BFL is developing at 65nm and not 45nm.

I was right. One. More. Time. I correctly predicted 65nm and BFL confirmed it.
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November 07, 2012, 06:54:38 AM
 #77

The Block Erupter 130nm project now claims an estimate of 122 Mhash/Joule: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91173.msg1072887#msg1072887

This is such an improvement, that ~500 Mhash/Joule should be possible at 65nm. Combined with the fact that BFL disclosed that Jalapenos will be wall-powered, after all, I think this makes it very, very likely that BFL is developing at 65nm and not 45nm.

I was right. One. More. Time. I correctly predicted 65nm and BFL confirmed it.

That has been my assumption as well, though I probably got the idea from you mrb.

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November 07, 2012, 06:58:56 AM
 #78

mrb: What are your thoughts about the bASIC line using a little less than 2x the power per GH/s of the BFL SC line? You'd expect a 90nm chip to use twice the power of a 65nm chip all else being equal, right? Then what did BFL gain by going full custom? Shouldn't the BFL be significantly more efficient than 2x?

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November 07, 2012, 10:50:39 AM
 #79

The bASIC power consumption estimate from Tom "8-10 devices per 1000W PSU" is too vague to make a statement at this point... For starters he did not say if he was talking about 24Ghash/s or 57Ghash/s devices.
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November 07, 2012, 12:20:06 PM
 #80

I think it was a couple days ago that he clarified he meant the 54 GH unit, and in the last day he stated more directly that the 54 GH unit should use 100-120w, and the 27 GH unit 50-60w.

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