Bitcoin Forum
December 03, 2016, 09:53:23 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Best demonstrated efficiency: 1290 Mhash/Joule  (Read 19257 times)
mrb
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 06:19:34 AM
 #1

This thread shall be used to report the best demonstrated energy efficiencies of real-world ASIC implementations of SHA-256 at the chip level.


(Note: for reference, hashing 1 gigabit of data per second corresponds to a mining speed of about 1 Mhash/s because one Bitcoin hash consists of hashing 1024 bits of data, or 2 SHA-256 data blocks: SHA-256(SHA-256(x)) minus a few SHA-256 steps that can be optimized out.)


BFL claims the 'SC' Jalapeno (3.5 Ghash/s) will be USB-powered. I theorize it will draw 5W via 2 USB ports (2.5W per port), giving it an efficiency of 700 Mhash/J. Edit: BFL has since then confirmed that the Jalapeno will be powered by 2 USB ports.

The 167 Mhash/J number at 130nm indicates that 668 Mhash/J should be possible by merely scaling down the design to 65nm (because 65nm is theoretically 4x more power efficient than 130nm as efficiency is linearly proportional to the transistor junction area), confirming my BFL estimate of 700 Mhash/J. Furthermore, it is known that BFL pre-sold $250k of SC devices in the first day, making it almost certain that they can cover the NRE cost for developing at 65nm which is only $500k. (And on top of pre-order revenues, BFL also claim to have received VC capital.)
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
Dexter770221
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1026


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 07:45:08 AM
 #2

Blah, BFL is talking about ~1750MH/Joule Wink Jalapeno, USB device 3.5GH/s @ 2W from USB Wink

Under development Modular UPGRADEABLE Miner (MUM). Looking for investors.
Changing one PCB with screwdriver and you have brand new miner in hand... Plug&Play, scalable from one module to thousands.
mrb
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 07:56:27 AM
 #3

I know. (Actually 1400 Mhash/Joule at 2.5W.) And the goal of this thread is to compare BFL's theoretical claims vs. actual chips.
eldentyrell
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966


felonious vagrancy, personified


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 08:28:51 AM
 #4

Let me get this straight: BFL is claiming 1,750 MH/J and you are trying to say that is plausible based on some paper you found that demonstrated 71 MH/J?

Seriously?

The printing press heralded the end of the Dark Ages and made the Enlightenment possible, but it took another three centuries before any country managed to put freedom of the press beyond the reach of legislators.  So it may take a while before cryptocurrencies are free of the AML-NSA-KYC surveillance plague.
mrb
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 08:53:45 AM
 #5

Let me ask you this: if the chip measured 13.76 mJ/Gbits at 130nm, what do you think is a plausible mJ/Gbits performance figure at 32nm? how about 45nm?
pieppiep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 402



View Profile
July 26, 2012, 09:00:27 AM
 #6

If you are just looking for best Mhash/Joule I'll downclock my intel Q6600 from 2.4GHz to 2.4MHz so it is 1000 times slower and uses 1,000,000 times less energy so it gets a 1000 times better MHash/Joule rating.
mrb
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 09:05:43 AM
 #7

If you are just looking for best Mhash/Joule I'll downclock my intel Q6600 from 2.4GHz to 2.4MHz so it is 1000 times slower and uses 1,000,000 times less energy so it gets a 1000 times better MHash/Joule rating.

Except you just increased your cost per Mh/s by a factor 1000x.

This is why GPUs cannot compete with FPGAs even when underclocked/undervolted. Because you still pay full price and end up running the hw at a fraction of the speed it is capable of.
pieppiep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 402



View Profile
July 26, 2012, 09:09:15 AM
 #8

So you should add to the question the minimum hashrate for a chip.
But you don't know yet how many chips BFL is using in the new products.
Cablez
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400


I owe my soul to the Bitcoin code...


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 01:31:30 PM
 #9

Shouldn't this be in mining speculation?

I find it tedious that these types of discussion can even continue. There are only 2 probable outcomes: BFL meets their stated specs, which are incomplete or they fail to get what they sold everyone on.

nuff said.

Tired of substandard power distribution in your ASIC setup???   Chris' Custom Cablez will get you sorted out right!  No job too hard so PM me for a quote
Check my products or ask a question here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74397.0
Glasswalker
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350



View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 01:37:21 PM
 #10

A quick note, it should be confirmed (I haven't the time to read it directly) if this article is talking about MHash/s as in SHA256 Hashes, or MHash/s as in Bitcoin hashes... Remember, a single Bitcoin Hash is 2x SHA256 Hashes... Meaning 1200MHash/s in raw SHA256 Hashes is actually only 600Mhash/s in bitcoin speak.

Just trying to make Bitcoin a Success... One crazy project at a time. (13rwPKskyATcAq3PpnCikfFG8989DQ8M3c)
HashVoodoo Open Source FPGA Mining Bitstream: https://github.com/pmumby/hashvoodoo-fpga-bitcoin-miner
mrb
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 02:38:42 PM
 #11

A quick note, it should be confirmed (I haven't the time to read it directly) if this article is talking about MHash/s as in SHA256 Hashes, or MHash/s as in Bitcoin hashes... Remember, a single Bitcoin Hash is 2x SHA256 Hashes... Meaning 1200MHash/s in raw SHA256 Hashes is actually only 600Mhash/s in bitcoin speak.

Neither. It talks about SHA-256 speed in Gbit/sec. See "Note 1" in my first post.
mtminer
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 86


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 02:52:19 PM
 #12

Blah, BFL is talking about ~1750MH/Joule Wink Jalapeno, USB device 3.5GH/s @ 2W from USB Wink

And everyone is 100% sure they aren't going to have an external power supply? A small wall wart?

USB 3 is 4.5 W

I think you need to go the other way start at what a US based 20 AMP 120V power plug could supply and work backwards using the 1 THash box.

15 AMPs * 120V == 1800 watts, 80% eff would give 1,440 watts available.

~695MH / Watt

Jalapeno is going to need a wall wart mystery solved?
Dexter770221
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1026


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 04:29:06 PM
 #13

Blah, BFL is talking about ~1750MH/Joule Wink Jalapeno, USB device 3.5GH/s @ 2W from USB Wink

And everyone is 100% sure they aren't going to have an external power supply? A small wall wart?

USB 3 is 4.5 W

I think you need to go the other way start at what a US based 20 AMP 120V power plug could supply and work backwards using the 1 THash box.

15 AMPs * 120V == 1800 watts, 80% eff would give 1,440 watts available.

~695MH / Watt

Jalapeno is going to need a wall wart mystery solved?


Or Jalapeno will be downclocked and downvolted a little bit to met USB specs. Mystery solved? We may speculate till dawn....
My guess is just like that: Single chip is designed to deliver 4GH/s @ 4W. SC Single will contain 10 of this chips, Mini rig 250. Jalapeno downclocked and downvolted to 3,5GH @ 2,5W.

Under development Modular UPGRADEABLE Miner (MUM). Looking for investors.
Changing one PCB with screwdriver and you have brand new miner in hand... Plug&Play, scalable from one module to thousands.
rampone
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 339


dafq is goin on


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 05:36:13 PM
 #14

Y Cable, like some harddrives?

http://virwox.com - Bitcoins via CCard, Skrill, paysafe, paypal & SEPA
Convert your bitcoin into spendable fiat money in less than 2 days. Poker Players use this method to avoid "unnecessary trouble" with the country they live in ... PM me for details. +1:naz86,b4nana,tinua,smart1986,fhh
punin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 559


View Profile WWW
July 26, 2012, 06:42:44 PM
 #15

Maybe it'll be 3.5Gbit/s per chip?  Grin Maybe they had a "misunderstanding".

Head of Product Development
Bitfury Group
www.bitfury.com
SgtSpike
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1344



View Profile
July 26, 2012, 07:18:41 PM
 #16

Blah, BFL is talking about ~1750MH/Joule Wink Jalapeno, USB device 3.5GH/s @ 2W from USB Wink

And everyone is 100% sure they aren't going to have an external power supply? A small wall wart?

USB 3 is 4.5 W

I think you need to go the other way start at what a US based 20 AMP 120V power plug could supply and work backwards using the 1 THash box.

15 AMPs * 120V == 1800 watts, 80% eff would give 1,440 watts available.

~695MH / Watt

Jalapeno is going to need a wall wart mystery solved?

BFL confirmed (in a thread around here somewhere) that the Jalepeno would run off of the USB port as it's power source, and that it would not require USB 3.0.  Of course, until it actually happens, I'd still call that speculation, but it is at least BFL's goal to have it run only on the USB power alone.
Coinoisseur
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 08:08:31 PM
 #17

ITT: People graciously try figuring out how BFL could possibly make good on their ASIC promises by putting them on par with the best MH/J rate and best W/die size rates currently known in the research field (which usually takes 3-10 years to materialize into products if it comes to fruition at all).
rjk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420


1ngldh


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 08:21:18 PM
 #18

ITT: People graciously try figuring out how BFL could possibly make good on their ASIC promises by putting them on par with the best MH/J rate and best W/die size rates currently known in the research field (which usually takes 3-10 years to materialize into products if it comes to fruition at all).
Dude... 65, 45, and even 35 nm are far from experimental. 22nm is current, and we aren't even looking at those numbers, although they would have great performance.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
Coinoisseur
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 08:38:28 PM
 #19

28nm theoretical Mh/W have been tossed around. Very rosy to think BFL has a VC source willing to pony up 10s of millions up front for that kind of chip development. IMO, given the Bitcoin market 65nm makes the most sense with 45nm, better odds if it's a FPGA->ASIC copy, being an outside possibility.

And the SHA design in OP is definitely experimental/research.

ITT: People graciously try figuring out how BFL could possibly make good on their ASIC promises by putting them on par with the best MH/J rate and best W/die size rates currently known in the research field (which usually takes 3-10 years to materialize into products if it comes to fruition at all).
Dude... 65, 45, and even 35 nm are far from experimental. 22nm is current, and we aren't even looking at those numbers, although they would have great performance.
rjk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420


1ngldh


View Profile
July 26, 2012, 08:41:14 PM
 #20

28nm theoretical Mh/W have been tossed around. Very rosy to think BFL has a VC source willing to pony up 10s of millions up front for that kind of chip development. IMO, given the Bitcoin market 65nm makes the most sense with 45nm, better odds if it's a FPGA->ASIC copy, being an outside possibility.

And the SHA design in OP is definitely experimental/research.

ITT: People graciously try figuring out how BFL could possibly make good on their ASIC promises by putting them on par with the best MH/J rate and best W/die size rates currently known in the research field (which usually takes 3-10 years to materialize into products if it comes to fruition at all).
Dude... 65, 45, and even 35 nm are far from experimental. 22nm is current, and we aren't even looking at those numbers, although they would have great performance.
What I meant was that the processes are mature. As long as you have a good designer, you aren't going to have any issue getting them fabbed. Thus my comment about whether or not it was "experimental".

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!