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Author Topic: DRK vs XMR warez  (Read 12995 times)
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smooth
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March 04, 2015, 04:52:52 AM
 #161

Well as we are all back to topic: is there anything DarkWallet can not adopt from DRK?

I think they can adopt the Masternode concept, maybe except the 80% blockreward they will get in the future.

The instamine, or did we cover that earlier in this thread? It is hard to remember what was discussed before the shadow invasion.


oh come on... you know what i meant!
to be more specific: is there any anon-specific tech that darkwallet could not adopt?

I wasn't being entirely facetious although it might have seemed that way. The instamine (and cutting of mining rewards, which is what redirecting those to masternode operators does in economic effect) is arguably a good thing for investors because as long as the insiders don't dump, it drives the price higher and higher. Everyone thinks he can get out before everyone else.

In terms of anon-specific tech, no I don't think so.
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March 04, 2015, 05:04:57 AM
 #162


I wasn't being entirely facetious although it might have seemed that way. The instamine (and cutting of mining rewards, which is what redirecting those to masternode operators does in economic effect) is arguably a good thing for investors because as long as the insiders don't dump, it drives the price higher and higher. Everyone thinks he can get out before everyone else.

In terms of anon-specific tech, no I don't think so.


i think so too, but i'd like to here from them what they think (drk).

all i found is this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg6119570#msg6119570 (by eduffield)

1.) We're decentralized. The clients automatically discover all masternodes and will use those
2.) Everyone will use DarkSend by default. The problem with a product you must setup like this is you'll have far fewer legitimate users to mix with. 
3.) Masternodes create a new type of investment opportunity within our ecosystem much like mining. The result? We get a ton of super high quality full nodes, anonymity and happy investors.
4.) If they're accepting inputs and outputs separately they can be shut down simply by a user offering an input, but refusing to send the output. If they're accepting inputs and outputs together, it's not anonymous and it MUST be decentralized to spread the knowledge of who did what to keep anonymity. My guess is they're taking inputs and outputs separately and banning inputs that do this. In that case you could attack it by using another mixing service to get fresh inputs.

1) could be archieved by darkwallet (though i dont know if they plan to do that)
2) thats a good one; but it depends how much their system is used at all.
3) i dont like masternodes, so i am biased on this one.
4) i think(!) he talks about the 1000drk colleteral which is needed to run a masternode.

ok so point 4 is (in my eyes) the only real difference regarding anon.
he is assuming how they implemented it and use that to come to an conclusion? seems strange.

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March 04, 2015, 07:37:11 AM
 #163


1) could be archieved by darkwallet (though i dont know if they plan to do that)

DRK Wallet is a gimmick IMO.

It's a client-side tool that lets you mix incidental amounts, not an institutionalised solution.

It's a product who's existence is motivated by a distaste for authority rather than the need for widespread corporate, personal and commercial privacy at a protocol level.

You say you "don't like" masternodes. I don't think it's a question of whether people like them or not, it's a question of what job are they doing and whether that job is justified. Darkcoin is a 2-tier network by design for some very good reasons. One of them is to retain full compatibility with the Bitcoin API, blockchain and commercial infrastructure.

Another is to decouple the "anon" development from the core blockchain. This is very important now that Bitcoin has prevailed over the alts in marketcap because the more it gains trust and value, the less people want it "f*cked about with" when they have large holdings.

De-coupling the anon from the core blockchain has allowed Darkcoin to make huge advances while preserving the core value of the monetary asset and not threatning it technologically.
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March 04, 2015, 11:21:00 AM
 #164

Seems this is very similar to ShadowCash minting scheme and double spend protection as described in section 3 and 4 of the Shadow whitepaper: http://shadow.cash/downloads/shadowcash-anon.pdf

Again I'm going to explain it to you. It is up to you if you wish to learn or continue to spam the drivel.

The NIZKP in the SDC whitepaper has nothing to do with "minting" and is just a regular part of the construction used to create cryptonote signitures. Yes this is described in sections 3 and 4 (mostly 4) of the SDC white paper, just as it is likewise described in section 4.4 of the cryptonote white paper. The more puzzling question is why the SDC white paper never cites the cryptonote white paper in the section where it uses the same cryptographic constructions, instead of merely listing a non-specific reference to cryptonote at the end. A careless oversight perhaps. You will have to ask the author, though.

No one is being a jerk here, I'm responding to inaccuracies in your spam, that is all.

Well all I did was continue a conversation, and make statements saying, what it "seems" like and providing evidence.  I am very happy for you to correct me if I am wrong.  How else is someone suppose to find the truth?  I was basically asking questions about the similarities that I saw.  Personally I don't believe asking questions or having a conversation is spam, and calling it that is rather rude and insulting imo.  Personally I think you are a little biased in your opinion(and possibly threatened) since you are so personally invested in Monero (and I don't mean financially invested, I mean investing your time and energy).  So it will be nice when a 3rd party review comes out.  Again we have common goals of privacy and anonymity, and a little respect goes a long way.  Being rude has a ripple effect and then trolls come out from the woodwork and it causes a flame war.  We are all more professional than that.


Pline: I wouldnt bother with smooth. He refuses to open his mind or wait for the Zeuner review. smooth is entirely convinced he knows best and that will never change. I have even tried learning Esperanto to assist in my communication with him, all to no avail I fear…

onemorexmr: did u get a good answer from the DRK guys why a masternode should cost 1000DRK and not say 500DRK to double the amount of MN's (a good thing right?)

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March 04, 2015, 11:53:02 AM
 #165


Pline: I wouldnt bother with smooth. He refuses to open his mind or wait for the Zeuner review. smooth is entirely convinced he knows best and that will never change. I have even tried learning Esperanto to assist in my communication with him, all to no avail I fear…


at least he tries to explain things - instead of you just throwing buzzwords around and expecting others to explain it for you.

when you dont like their explanation you start crying....

DRK Wallet is a gimmick IMO.

It's a client-side tool that lets you mix incidental amounts, not an institutionalised solution.


at first: thank you for your answer. i really appreciate it.
obviously we have a different opinion, let me explain myself:

It's a product who's existence is motivated by a distaste for authority rather than the need for widespread corporate, personal and commercial privacy at a protocol level.

when i look at the premine i am note sure that its existance is motivated by your claim.

You say you "don't like" masternodes. I don't think it's a question of whether people like them or not, it's a question of what job are they doing and whether that job is justified. Darkcoin is a 2-tier network by design for some very good reasons. One of them is to retain full compatibility with the Bitcoin API, blockchain and commercial infrastructure.

you are right: it doesnt matter if i like them or not.
let me explain why i dont like them:
 - they get a huge portion of the mining reward by doing nothing (compared to a miner) imho this will lead to a full pos system or something very insecure.
 - there are not enough of them to really make sure they dont get hijacked
 - i dont understand what masternodes have to do with bitcoin-api compatibility

Another is to decouple the "anon" development from the core blockchain. This is very important now that Bitcoin has prevailed over the alts in marketcap because the more it gains trust and value, the less people want it "f*cked about with" when they have large holdings.

true, thats the reason why darkcoin can not change their system (same is true for monero) without loosing much confidence.

De-coupling the anon from the core blockchain has allowed Darkcoin to make huge advances while preserving the core value of the monetary asset and not threatning it technologically.

lol?
that doesnt even make sense.. let me rephrase it:
"because we didnt integrate anon in the blockchain we have made huge advances [..]" (btw you had many hardforks in the way - you just call them different; so i dont see anything which could have been a problem because of anon in the chain)

still: there is nothing darkwallet cant adopt.

this is one of the main reasons i use monero: anon inside blockchain, automatically without any intervention (mn in case of drk). tested and approved by multiple cryptographers.

if i want something like drk i would use btc with mixers or darkwallet.

an anoncoin requires huge trust in his developer/s.
i cant trust eduffield with it, because as far as i know he never worked in cryptograhic before. the same is true for any of your team members: https://www.darkcoin.io/about/team-contact/

so HOW should i trust them?

XMR || Monero || monerodice.net || xmr.to || mymonero.com || openalias.org || you think bitcoin is fungible? watch this
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March 04, 2015, 12:21:38 PM
 #166


Pline: I wouldnt bother with smooth. He refuses to open his mind or wait for the Zeuner review. smooth is entirely convinced he knows best and that will never change. I have even tried learning Esperanto to assist in my communication with him, all to no avail I fear…


at least he tries to explain things - instead of you just throwing buzzwords around and expecting others to explain it for you.

when you dont like their explanation you start crying....

smooth and I (and other members of Shadow) have engaged repeatedly on this point. He does not back down in his assessment of SDC, and neither does the Shadow Team. They know what they made better than smooth can gleam from the WP.

how about u try answering the ONLY question i asked you rather than hurling insults? see below


onemorexmr: did u get a good answer from the DRK guys why a masternode should cost 1000DRK and not say 500DRK to double the amount of MN's (a good thing right?)


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March 04, 2015, 12:24:28 PM
 #167


how about u try answering the ONLY question i asked you rather than hurling insults? see below


onemorexmr: did u get a good answer from the DRK guys why a masternode should cost 1000DRK and not say 500DRK to double the amount of MN's (a good thing right?)



you insult me (called me muthers) and now you expect me to answer your questions?
gtfo

XMR || Monero || monerodice.net || xmr.to || mymonero.com || openalias.org || you think bitcoin is fungible? watch this
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March 04, 2015, 12:30:23 PM
 #168


how about u try answering the ONLY question i asked you rather than hurling insults? see below


onemorexmr: did u get a good answer from the DRK guys why a masternode should cost 1000DRK and not say 500DRK to double the amount of MN's (a good thing right?)



you insult me (called me muthers) and now you expect me to answer your questions?
gtfo

I did? I called u the plural of muther? Perhaps I had one too many snifters  of brandy last night…Well I can go back and delete that…
Seriously: you dont want to tackle my straightforward question. You wouldnt be interested in the answer?

If anybody here can give me a good reason why a masternode costs 1000DRK and not 500 I'm all ears.

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March 04, 2015, 12:33:18 PM
 #169


Seriously: you dont want to tackle my straightforward question.answer?


yes, i dont answer questions of people insulting me Wink

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March 04, 2015, 12:39:42 PM
 #170


Seriously: you dont want to tackle my straightforward question.answer?


yes, i dont answer questions of people insulting me Wink

OK

I am incredibly sorry for calling you "muthers". I apologize.

Now… the answer is??

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March 04, 2015, 12:41:01 PM
 #171

wanna watch

< Monero Compile Instructions >   < Track your bitcoins! > < Track them again! > < Monero NVIDIA mining instructions > < MONERODO : An operating system for your dedicated decentralized node device > <<< What is fungibility? >>> 46P88uZ4edEgsk7iKQUGu2FUDYcdHm2HtLFiGLp1inG4e4f9PTb4mbHWYWFZGYUeQidJ8hFym2WUmWc p34X8HHmFS2LXJkf <<< Free subdomains at moneroworld.com!! >>> <<< If you don't want to run your own node, point your wallet to node.moneroworld.com, and get connected to a random node! >>> @@@@@ Simple Monero Node Installer and Monitor for Windows @@@@@
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March 04, 2015, 12:48:33 PM
 #172

wanna watch

Is it possible onemorexmr doesn't have the answer?  Huh

I'm watching too

child_harold
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March 04, 2015, 01:07:49 PM
 #173

wanna watch

Is it possible onemorexmr doesn't have the answer?  Huh

I'm watching too

I did get one answer in the DRK thread a few days ago to the question:
why does a masternode should cost 1000DRK and not say 500DRK to double the amount of MN's (a good thing right?)

I'm paraphrasing the member of the DRK community who replied:
It's a demonstration of loyalty and commitment.


His answer left me feeling cold inside and I did mention to him I'd heard about such practices in other circles outside crypto.

If anybody wants to try and improve on that answer that'd be great! Smiley

UPDATE: heres the link
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg10615196#msg10615196

the actual quote is:
It is not just about having loads of masternodes, the 1000 DARK is about making it a meaningful investment / commitment to the project. 250 Dark would be too low especially at current prices, maybe in the future that would change.

I wasn't satisfied by this answer so if anybody else wants to add to it IM sure all crypto-communities would be interested to know the answer.

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March 04, 2015, 02:16:27 PM
 #174

You don't seem to ask questions of the right people.  If you spent half the time you spend bitching about Darkcoin on the Shadowcash IRC channel actually doing your research you'd have more info.

Masternodes require 1000 DRK to be set up as a negative incentive that disallows one party running or controlling too many of them in conjunction with a rarity of supply caused by masternodes removing coins from supply (until the owner of a masternode decides to cash out thus returning those coins to the economy).


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March 04, 2015, 02:26:08 PM
 #175

when i look at the premine i am note sure that its existance is motivated by your claim.

What has DRK's "premine" got to do with Darkwallet's 'motivation' ?

- they get a huge portion of the mining reward by doing nothing (compared to a miner)

So what ? They are needed just as miners are needed so they get rewarded. The miners are happy, masternodes holders are happy and the network gets the services it needs.

- there are not enough of them to really make sure they dont get hijacked

Who says ?

What is enough ? And what do you mean by "secured" ? I think you're confusing mining 50% attacks with someone owning lots of masternodes. The darkcoin blockchain is secured by miners the same as Bitcoin's is. What is someone who hijacks a bunch of masternodes going to do other than "be of service" to the network ? (People already have "hijacked" loads of masternodes to use your terms and all they can do is run them. There's no 50% attack like in mining).

Vulnerabilities have been identified (by Darkcoin's own devs and community) such as being able to access logs etc and somehow "mine" them to work back and de-anonymise certain transactions but that doesn't bother me. Over time the network improves in security and gets hardened. Anyway, they are not systemic vulnerabilities which is what's important.

- i dont understand what masternodes have to do with bitcoin-api compatibility

They don't have anything to do with it. The Darkcoin blockchain does.
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March 04, 2015, 02:35:48 PM
 #176

You don't seem to ask questions of the right people.  If you spent half the time you spend bitching about Darkcoin on the Shadowcash IRC channel actually doing your research you'd have more info.

Masternodes require 1000 DRK to be set up as a negative incentive that disallows one party running or controlling too many of them in conjunction with a rarity of supply caused by masternodes removing coins from supply (until the owner of a masternode decides to cash out thus returning those coins to the economy).


thanks for the reply. will add it to my files.

a 500drk sum would potentially double the available masternodses. do u agree this would benefit teh DRk anon system?

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March 04, 2015, 02:42:13 PM
 #177

A review of Darkcoins distribution as at September 2014

Summary

The general history / creation period of 3.8m (82%) of the 4.6m DRK in circulation is reviewed below.

Top 300 Wallets [10 Sept-14]

This is needed as a record of the top wallets as the final release of Darkcoin's anonymity software is due to be open sourced and put into production making analysis on some wallets impossible.

OP to be extended as analysis is updated:


http://bitinfocharts.com/



http://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-darkcoin-addresses-1.html

Top 300 Wallets: total held in all wallets by month they were created, and still in existence:

*Jan-14: 146,000 DRK
*Feb-14: 175,000 DRK
*Mar-14: 315,300 DRK
*Apr-14: 524,200 DRK
*May-14: 522,500 DRK
*Jun-14: 332,900 DRK
*JUL-14: 96,300 DRK
*Aug-14:713,855 DRK
*Sep-14: 125,624 DRK

Total: 2.94m DRK [~63%]

January 2014 Wallets

Darkcoin was launched on 18th January 2014 / No premine.

http://wiki.darkcoin.eu/wiki/FAQ#Was_Darkcoin_Instamined.3F



Of the top 300 wallets in circulation at 10 Sept 2014 and created in January, the total number of coins held in all those combined wallets from the first month is 146,000 DRK, around 3%.

Known Wallets

Several of the top 100 wallets have been flagged as belonging to exchanges or pools.



These collectively contain 450,300 DRK [~10% of the 4.64m coins in circuclation]

Wallets Above 10k DRK




Activity of top 4 Wallets which contain 1.1m DRK

Nr1. Wallet
XosXcEm3Y6Mv6tmBKd1rUWhqB9Pf1hABj7

Nr2. Wallet
XnuCAYmAiVHE6Xv3D7Xw685wWzqtcfexLh

Nr3.Wallet
XdiD28mjurK1koGgYy7NUSQqK1XeCfwvGX

Nr4. Wallet
XwXtGyj1NZnmHfWFDYjGsyY4qzkJXBLCjV


-snip-

Master Nodes are the future of crypto Apps......

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March 04, 2015, 02:42:50 PM
 #178

You don't seem to ask questions of the right people.  If you spent half the time you spend bitching about Darkcoin on the Shadowcash IRC channel actually doing your research you'd have more info.

Masternodes require 1000 DRK to be set up as a negative incentive that disallows one party running or controlling too many of them in conjunction with a rarity of supply caused by masternodes removing coins from supply (until the owner of a masternode decides to cash out thus returning those coins to the economy).


thanks for the reply. will add it to my files.

a 500drk sum would potentially double the available masternodses. do u agree this would benefit teh DRk anon system?

More masternodes would potentially benefit the DRK anon system however natural growth of the number of masternodes is deemed enough as coins are mined, bought and invested.  The masternode count is slowly but surely growing.

Changing requirements is out of the question because that would disenfranchise the owners of existing masternodes by messing with their ROI.

Keep in mind that masternodes will be providing other services in the future.  If you're not thinking about this, you're missing a trick.
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March 04, 2015, 02:54:31 PM
 #179


Changing requirements is out of the question because that would disenfranchise the owners of existing masternodes by messing with their ROI.


But surely the existing owners would have twice the number of masternodes so all wold be equal for them? Just 2x masternodes for the anon system to use

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March 04, 2015, 03:02:00 PM
 #180


Changing requirements is out of the question because that would disenfranchise the owners of existing masternodes by messing with their ROI.


But surely the existing owners would have twice the number of masternodes so all wold be equal for them? Just 2x masternodes for the anon system to use

Perhaps, apart from hosting costs.

However, why change it?  The security reviews indicated that a value of 2,000+ masternodes would be optimal.  The current number has passed 2,000 and continues to grow gradually with the coin.

What benefit is there to reduce the entry point for a masternode if there is only marginal (debatable) benefit to security?
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