Help me understand...

[johnyj]

When most anti-bitcoin people talk about bitcoin all I hear is how the price is not stable and it can't be used everywhere yet and not everyone uses bitcoin yet. To me this just shows how much growth potential there is with bitcoin. It shows me how much added value bitcoin will/would have with massive acceptance and usage. To me the fact that the bitcoin economy is growing and it continues to get new developments (think Bitcoin 2.0 world) shows me that it's on the right path to increase in adoption and usefullness.

Why do people see "doomed to failed, because it's not already big", while I see "Has tremendous growth potential, because it's not already big nor the defacto world currency".

All opinions, insight etc is GREATLY appreciated. I seriously have the hardest time wrapping my head around this one.

Bears feel free to flame-on, I'm greatly interested in what you all have to say along with the bulls.

It fails as a currency.  It is not price stable or even moderately price stable like the USD.  Some cryptocurrencies have linked to the USD, but that is redundant.  There's no point for a cryptocurrency that's slower than the USD with its own balance sheet risk since it's not the issuer.

Only a cryptocurrency that's faster than cash and totally price stable will win in the end.

What is the purpose of price stability?

Value is based on supply and demand, the demand does not change much, but the supply has increased so much during latest decades, so everything's value should went down dramatically. However daily consumption's price in fiat is relatively stable, means the value of fiat money also went down together with those goods

If use gold as absolute value indicator, then most of the thing's value (including fiat money) went down dramatically during latest 40 years. This suits economy theory much better, since the supply has increased a lot while demand almost unchanged

I think the demand for price stability is more of a psychological one, it does not have any real meaning economic wise: I want the bread that I bought yesterday still cost the same today, since that bread does not look different today.  I have no idea how much more of this kind of bread has been produced today, and I have no idea how much more fiat money has been produced today, but I just want that bread price to be the same as yesterday! 

[Q7]

When most anti-bitcoin people talk about bitcoin all I hear is how the price is not stable and it can't be used everywhere yet and not everyone uses bitcoin yet. To me this just shows how much growth potential there is with bitcoin. It shows me how much added value bitcoin will/would have with massive acceptance and usage. To me the fact that the bitcoin economy is growing and it continues to get new developments (think Bitcoin 2.0 world) shows me that it's on the right path to increase in adoption and usefullness.

Why do people see "doomed to failed, because it's not already big", while I see "Has tremendous growth potential, because it's not already big nor the defacto world currency".

All opinions, insight etc is GREATLY appreciated. I seriously have the hardest time wrapping my head around this one.

Bears feel free to flame-on, I'm greatly interested in what you all have to say along with the bulls.

It fails as a currency.  It is not price stable or even moderately price stable like the USD.  Some cryptocurrencies have linked to the USD, but that is redundant.  There's no point for a cryptocurrency that's slower than the USD with its own balance sheet risk since it's not the issuer.

Only a cryptocurrency that's faster than cash and totally price stable will win in the end.

No it has yet to realize it's true potential. Unlike central banks which can basically control the supply of money in the market and in certain way still able to influence the price to stabilize it. Bitcoin doesn't have that mechanism in place. The volatility still remains a problem but to imply that it is the main driver that will lead to complete failure is not justified in any way. And that will change.

[EugenInvest]

I'm new to BTC and already can I say I LOVE IT.
I buy 3 BTC a few weeks ago and now I sold 2 BTC some minutes ago,
My profit is 37 dollars.

[ajareselde]

Its doomed to fail if every bitcoin related businesses gets hacked. After the recent hacking incidents im losing faith

"hacking" of the exchanges will stop once the owners back their bussines with their own personal funds. transparent ownership and bussinesses would stop all this.
Were long way from worldwide acceptance, but if that is to come, all those dreams of 100k / bitcoin might come true, like it happened with 100$ dream not do long ago.

cheers

hacking" of the exchanges will stop once the owners back their bussines with their own personal funds. transparent ownership and bussinesses would stop all this.

What does this sentence actually mean? Does that mean every business present should reveal their owners and tell to the world that their business are backed by their own personal funds? Would that create some exception for them not to be target by criminals?

i wrote hacking in quotes because i don't believe they got hacked in the first place. They can say whoopsie we got hacked, while they can freely walk away with your bitcoins.
Clear ownership and backing with their personally property would make them think about their security better, and also stop robbing themselves.
That doesnt mean they will be target of criminals, if that was to be true, none of the global firms would exist.
Hope that clears it up a bit.

cheers

[johnyj]

Price stability optimizes the performance of all nominal prices which in turn secures the financial system and prevents a monetarily-inflicted liability production denial-of-service.

The gold years (pre-Fed) were far more chaotic than the Fed years.  It also saw lower rates of growth.

The demand is a practical one, and we should see it expressed in the market capitalization of the only balance sheet secure implementation, the Argus-Nemesis.

These statements sounds more like a political campaign  

Here is a better one: "The fiat monetary system is a scam. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it"

Value is all relative, stability is an illusion. A good example that price stability has nothing to do with productivity is bitcoin, merchants accept bitcoin payment and pricing can change a lot during a day or a week, but no one feel uncomfortable, they will always find a way to hedge this risk. People are not that stupid that without fiat money they will go back to stone age, no, without fiat money they will feel much better  

In fact, a stable price makes all the added productivity goes to money creators. If you make 1000 times more goods, banks will just create 1000 times more money to buy your goods, to make their price stable, how can this total slavery scheme last without being caught eventually

Growth has nothing to do with money supply, it is a result of technology advance, most of the modern technologies that widely used today have been developed long before the FED established

[bitebits]

People don't like change.

[johnyj]

I prefer total price stability.

Over slavery  

Sooner or later, people will realize that price stability is only a belief, it has never been realized. Look at all the world currency wildly swing against each other, it is only a best-effort control by central banks, and Swiss central bank just gave up the control and make it swing 40% in a couple of hours

But again, comparing to money creation, inflation or deflation or stability are all minor issues, it is the money creation bring the slavery to mankind, not inflation

[NotLambchop]

I prefer total price stability.

Over slavery  

Sooner or later, people will realize that price stability is only a belief, it has never been realized...

Go to a grocery store.
Get price for 1 gallon of milk, in USD.
Return a week later, find 1 gallon of milk costs the same.
That's stability.  I'm OK with that.

Now try that with BTC, and you'll learn that (other than the fact the bodega next door doesn't know BTC from DMT) the price changes every ten minutes.  Or, at least, that's how long BitPay price was good for, last time I checked.
That's not stability. That's Bitcoin.

[ObscureBean]

You seem to greatly underestimate the importance of stability. Money is the life force of human civilization, it's like nourishing blood flowing through the entire system, holding everything together. Without stability money doesn't work. If you were to magically replace all the money in the world with Bitcoin, in its current form, the whole system would come crashing down in an instant.

[polynesia]

I prefer total price stability.

Over slavery  

Sooner or later, people will realize that price stability is only a belief, it has never been realized...

Go to a grocery store.
Get price for 1 gallon of milk, in USD.
Return a week later, find 1 gallon of milk costs the same.
That's stability.  I'm OK with that.

Now try that with BTC, and you'll learn that (other than the fact the bodega next door doesn't know BTC from DMT) the price changes every ten minutes.  Or, at least, that's how long BitPay price was good for, last time I checked.
That's not stability. That's Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is still in its infancy stage. Give it some time.

[NotLambchop]

^We must kill it before it lays eggs

[johnyj]

Go to a grocery store.
Get price for 1 gallon of milk, in USD.
Return a week later, find 1 gallon of milk costs the same.
That's stability.  I'm OK with that.

It seems quite natural, but it is exactly this kind of thought makes billions of people become slaves of banks

When there is no fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, your real income increase by 10 fold. But if there is fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, you need 10 times more USD to keep the price of them stable, and those USD will be created by banks out of nothing. So the more you produce, the more banks can buy from you with nothing, added productivity all belongs to banks, simply because people want price stability

It is amazing that people prefer to be a slave instead of doing some simple exchange rate calculation  

[Yakamoto]

Go to a grocery store.
Get price for 1 gallon of milk, in USD.
Return a week later, find 1 gallon of milk costs the same.
That's stability.  I'm OK with that.

It seems quite natural, but it is exactly this kind of thought makes billions of people become slaves of banks

When there is no fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, your real income increase by 10 fold. But if there is fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, you need 10 times more USD to keep the price of them stable, and those USD will be created by banks out of nothing. So the more you produce, the more banks can buy from you with nothing, added productivity all belongs to banks, simply because people want price stability

It is amazing that people prefer to be a slave instead of doing some simple exchange rate calculation  

I'm glad to see such a simple answer. It leaves me with the hope that there are still some sane people on this site.

With inflation, there will always be less money for you, regardless how much your produce. In 10 years time, the milk will cost ~20% more than it does today. I don't call that stability.

Most money is just numbers anyways, most of it isn't even created by the government.

If you get a chance, I suggest looking up the web series "Hidden Secrets of Money", it's pretty insightful, especially episode 4.

[NotLambchop]

Go to a grocery store.
Get price for 1 gallon of milk, in USD.
Return a week later, find 1 gallon of milk costs the same.
That's stability.  I'm OK with that.

It seems quite natural, but it is exactly this kind of thought makes billions of people become slaves of banks

When there is no fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, your real income increase by 10 fold. But if there is fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, you need 10 times more USD to keep the price of them stable, and those USD will be created by banks out of nothing...

Ergo, when I make x10 less milk, the central bank will destroy 90% of the money.  I see what you're getting at now.

TL;DR:  When I make x10 more milk, unless demand for milk goes up by x10, I can assure you I won't make x10 as much--in fiat money, gold, or barter.  Because supply & demand.

[bitdraw]

I prefer total price stability.

Over slavery  

Sooner or later, people will realize that price stability is only a belief, it has never been realized. Look at all the world currency wildly swing against each other, it is only a best-effort control by central banks, and Swiss central bank just gave up the control and make it swing 40% in a couple of hours

But again, comparing to money creation, inflation or deflation or stability are all minor issues, it is the money creation bring the slavery to mankind, not inflation

`

agree, the current money creation process is the root of all evil, inflation is just a manifestation of it..

alltough i still dont get why price stability is such an important goal

[Southampton]

Why do people see "doomed to failed, because it's not already big", while I see "Has tremendous growth potential, because it's not already big nor the defacto world currency".

Because they're either trolls or ignorant, usually both. Obviously we can see the potential in bitcoin and the opportunity for both growth and profit so we see it as a worthwhile investment, but others don't. Some people thought it was a get rich quick scheme and it didn't work out for them or they lost a lot of money and now they're pissed so they become aggressive and cynical.

[johnyj]

Go to a grocery store.
Get price for 1 gallon of milk, in USD.
Return a week later, find 1 gallon of milk costs the same.
That's stability.  I'm OK with that.

It seems quite natural, but it is exactly this kind of thought makes billions of people become slaves of banks

When there is no fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, your real income increase by 10 fold. But if there is fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, you need 10 times more USD to keep the price of them stable, and those USD will be created by banks out of nothing...

Ergo, when I make x10 less milk, the central bank will destroy 90% of the money.  I see what you're getting at now.

TL;DR:  When I make x10 more milk, unless demand for milk goes up by x10, I can assure you I won't make x10 as much--in fiat money, gold, or barter.  Because supply & demand.

First, when you make x10 less milk, FED will not destroy money, it is a one way ticket. They only print more and more, never destroy it, not because the economy can not shrink, just because they don't want to sell their assets in exchange for useless paper

And your second reasoning is quite right, the milk's price should be based on supply and demand, has nothing to do with FED's money supply. Changing the money supply will just affect milk's price, thus give wrong signal of milk's supply and demand, which usually first cause over production and over hiring, and then followed by a larger sell-off of over produced goods and lay-off

[Erdogan]

Go to a grocery store.
Get price for 1 gallon of milk, in USD.
Return a week later, find 1 gallon of milk costs the same.
That's stability.  I'm OK with that.

It seems quite natural, but it is exactly this kind of thought makes billions of people become slaves of banks

When there is no fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, your real income increase by 10 fold. But if there is fiat money, when you make 10 times more milk, you need 10 times more USD to keep the price of them stable, and those USD will be created by banks out of nothing...

Ergo, when I make x10 less milk, the central bank will destroy 90% of the money.  I see what you're getting at now.

TL;DR:  When I make x10 more milk, unless demand for milk goes up by x10, I can assure you I won't make x10 as much--in fiat money, gold, or barter.  Because supply & demand.

First, when you make x10 less milk, FED will not destroy money, it is a one way ticket. They only print more and more, never destroy it, not because the economy can not shrink, just because they don't want to sell their assets in exchange for useless paper

And your second reasoning is quite right, the milk's price should be based on supply and demand, has nothing to do with FED's money supply. Changing the money supply will just affect milk's price, thus give wrong signal of milk's supply and demand, which usually first cause over production and over hiring, and then followed by a larger sell-off of over produced goods and lay-off

... which we now see on a global scale, for all commodities, especially those with a long delay from investment to finished product.

[johnyj]

The Fed does not adjust the money supply based upon one product.  They adjust it via changes in the Fed funds rate, higher when inflation is above their target and vice versa.

Definitely, however debt and assets are not included in CPI, they buy as much debt and assets as possible, and when most of the debts and assets are concentrated in the hands of a few, there will be even less worry about inflation

The general price level will always be dependent upon the supply of money, and price instability does not create over production.  Only price stability has the highest potential production.

Price instability does not cause the signals from relative prices to become distorted.  It makes comparison less efficient and crumbles the financial structure.

Humans are adaptive, if you see the future price volatility risk, you will either take less exposure or make some hedging against that risk. The much larger danger is seeing an illusion of price stability that is created by FED, while not detecting the underlying problem under the calm surface, and crashed without any preparation. FED is also human, they are not much smarter than average graduates, can not avoid human's weakness. But due to their higher level of view, they could drive larger changes, and also cause larger disasters

[Jybrael]

Well it is true that a lot of hacking incidents are happening at the moment when it comes to bitcoin related...businesses...but this also shows them that they need to up their security to better serve their customers. It's not a matter of whether or not the bitcoin currency is secure or not...but more of a question...of whether or not the people are taking the proper precautions...