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Question: As a gun control advocate, have you or a close family member ever owned a firearm?
Yes - 28 (19.9%)
No - 21 (14.9%)
I am not a gun control advocate. - 92 (65.2%)
Total Voters: 141

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Author Topic: Poll for Gun Control Advocates  (Read 17521 times)
vampire
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August 28, 2012, 05:46:13 PM
 #221

Canada is an unfair comparison.  The culture is so dramticly different as to make any direct comparisons difficult.  Which is true with pretty much every nation, so I don't put much stock in such comparisons anyway, but I used that to point out the fundamental error of Rarity's premise.  Gun control does not lead to reduced incidents of violent crime within that culture.  In every nation that has an outright ban on civilian owned handguns, the rate of all forms of violent crime have increased over a period of years since.  I'm not trying to compare Britain to the US, I'm comparing Britain before and after.

WTF? Canadian's culture is dramatically different? Wow. I never heard that one before? Well so who has the closer culture to USA than Canada? I really want to know!

Are you really kidding here?  The Swiss have a national milita that trains annually with firearms that they are required by law to keep in their homes with ammunition.  That would be every single adult & able bodied male citizen between 18 and 45.  Do you really think that the Swiss need CCW?  Do you think that an intruder is going to think "hey, they can't shoot me because their magazines are sealed"?

May be should stop reading silly websites?

Quote
Every soldier equipped with the Sig 550 assault rifle used to be issued 50 rounds of ammunition in a sealed box, to be opened only upon alert. The ammunition was to be loaded into the rifle magazine for use by the militiaman should any need arise while he was en route to join his unit. Any use other than this, or even unsealing, was strictly forbidden. This practice was stopped due to safety concerns.

Vampire is always right, repeat after me. Swiss must keep their semi auto disassembled, and don't even have ammo for it. Buying ammo is highly illegal there.

Another milita nation, not a anti-gun culture.  The only nation in the world that requires all women to serve in the military & in combat positions.  Again, CCW is inmaterial in Israel.

Outside of army and police, and settlers that live in West Bank - guns are illegal in Israel. Mostly because that arabs wouldn't buy them. Again, vampire is right.

Laws, maybe.  That's debatable.  Gun culture, no.  LEt me see a NYC militia march in the parade some time, and if they aren't booed I'll concede you might have a point here.

Really? There are plenty militarized cops in NYC, same as in Israel. Israel doesn't have militia.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2011/4/8/1302255691715/NYPD-Patrol-Wall-Street-i-007.jpg

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TheBitcoinChemist
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August 28, 2012, 06:34:59 PM
 #222

Vampire, I don't think that you know what a militia is.

Quick quiz, gun banners!  Which European nation fits this description?

"...carrying a firearm in plain view in a public place is allowed without a permit, with some restrictions..."

"...an understanding of firearms safety and the law, tested in a theoretical and/or practial training course is not required for a firearms license"
emphasis is mine

"...private possesion of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is permitted under license..."

"...annual homicides by firearms total

2008:  1
2007:  0
2006:  0
2005:  0"

No, that was not per 100,000 or some such, that was total.

This nation would be considered a "may issue" state if it was here in the US, per this data point...

"Applicants for a gun owners license in (redacted) are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example hunting, target shooting, collection, personal protection, security"

Additionally, this particular nation is consider to be by some to be the closest example of a libertarian state in our modern world, including by hardcore libertarians such as Lew Rockwell fellows.

No cheating, google searching or wikipedia is not allowed.  Any guesses?
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August 28, 2012, 06:48:17 PM
 #223

No cheating, google searching or wikipedia is not allowed.  Any guesses?

Uh Vatican? The smallest country? Monaco after?
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August 28, 2012, 06:52:10 PM
 #224

No cheating, google searching or wikipedia is not allowed.  Any guesses?

Uh Vatican? The smallest country? Monaco after?

The vatican doesn't issue weapons permits, so no.  Not Monaco either.
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August 28, 2012, 07:04:10 PM
 #225

The vatican doesn't issue weapons permits, so no.  Not Monaco either.

So what it is? I don't recall any other country with 0 murder rate. It should be tiny enough, after Monaco there are like Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino.
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August 28, 2012, 07:12:12 PM
 #226

The vatican doesn't issue weapons permits, so no.  Not Monaco either.

So what it is? I don't recall any other country with 0 murder rate. It should be tiny enough, after Monaco there are like Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino.

Liechtenstein

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/liechtenstein

http://lewrockwell.com/orig13/naylor1.1.1.html
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August 28, 2012, 07:14:20 PM
 #227

The vatican doesn't issue weapons permits, so no.  Not Monaco either.

So what it is? I don't recall any other country with 0 murder rate. It should be tiny enough, after Monaco there are like Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino.

Liechtenstein

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/liechtenstein

http://lewrockwell.com/orig13/naylor1.1.1.html

Fig fail. A country that is more restrictive than 40 states. LOL
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August 28, 2012, 07:16:39 PM
 #228

The vatican doesn't issue weapons permits, so no.  Not Monaco either.

So what it is? I don't recall any other country with 0 murder rate. It should be tiny enough, after Monaco there are like Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino.

Liechtenstein

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/liechtenstein

http://lewrockwell.com/orig13/naylor1.1.1.html

So much big fail. A country that is more restrictive than 40 states. LOL

But less restrictive than ten, no?  Do you think that supports your position?
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August 28, 2012, 07:27:01 PM
 #229

The vatican doesn't issue weapons permits, so no.  Not Monaco either.

So what it is? I don't recall any other country with 0 murder rate. It should be tiny enough, after Monaco there are like Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino.

Liechtenstein

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/liechtenstein

http://lewrockwell.com/orig13/naylor1.1.1.html

So much big fail. A country that is more restrictive than 40 states. LOL

But less restrictive than ten, no?  Do you think that supports your position?

Notablely less restrictive than the Swiss, which is a country with one of the highest rates of gun  possesion in the world.  It's not the restrictiveness of guns laws that is the determinate factor, but the availabilty of same.  The core flaw in gun control logic is that laws passed by governments automaticly have the intended effects on the availabilty of firearems.  The Swiss deliberately arm thier entire population, teach them to use them, and then expect them to abid the publicly defined use of them.  This is the very definition of "a well regulated militia".  For that matter, the framers of the Constitution got the idea from the Swiss.  But if you think that, should some violent nutjub takes his weapon into the twon square and stars popping pedestrians, that the guy who opened his ammo box and shot that nutjob has to worry about being prosecuted for opening his sealed box, you're deluded.
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August 28, 2012, 07:29:14 PM
 #230

But less restrictive than ten, no?  Do you think that supports your position?

No. I somewhat padded my answer, and I wanted to see if you gonna fall for it too.  I can't recall a state that is more restrictive than Liechtenstein.

Liechtenstein is about as restrictive as California, which is like the most restrictive state. You can try to argue about open carry, but Liechtenstein has restrictions also, and California allows open carry in unincorporated areas.

40 states are shall issue.
11 states are may issue, with few shall issue in practice.

I am not sure what are you trying to prove to me? That gun control reduces crime?

edit:

I am out of here. We can compare EU countries with their low crime rates to US crime rates all day long, EU guns laws are much more restrictive than here. US is a melting pot of many ethnicities, while EU countries (especially smaller ones) have more or less monolithic cultures. Comparing them is not a good idea.
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August 28, 2012, 07:52:50 PM
 #231

A borderline-homicidal Caucasian is more likely to kill a Negroid than he is to kill another Caucasian, considering primal xenophobia and all.

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August 28, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
 #232

A borderline-homicidal Caucasian is more likely to kill a Negroid than he is to kill another Caucasian, considering primal xenophobia and all.

In a thread full of cans of worms, that's a big one. I think we'd all rather leave that one closed.

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August 28, 2012, 08:04:27 PM
 #233

A borderline-homicidal Caucasian is more likely to kill a Negroid than he is to kill another Caucasian, considering primal xenophobia and all.
Bullshit.
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August 28, 2012, 08:09:01 PM
 #234

But less restrictive than ten, no?  Do you think that supports your position?

No. I somewhat padded my answer, and I wanted to see if you gonna fall for it too.  I can't recall a state that is more restrictive than Liechtenstein.

Liechtenstein is about as restrictive as California, which is like the most restrictive state. You can try to argue about open carry, but Liechtenstein has restrictions also, and California allows open carry in unincorporated areas.

40 states are shall issue.
11 states are may issue, with few shall issue in practice.

I am not sure what are you trying to prove to me? That gun control reduces crime?


I'm not really trying to "prove" anything, but it does show how much culture matters.  And cali is not the most restrictive from a legal perspective, that honor goes to Wisconsin, Illinois or the District of Columbia, all of which (until very recently) are no-issue states.  Cali is a may-issue state, but has more restrictive 'valid reasons' than Liechtenstein according to the link I referenced, because Cali doesn't honor "personal protection" as a legitimate cause unless you're a member of the state justice apparatus already, such as a prosecutor.  Granted, I could get a shotgun in Cali for inside my own home, and I can't determine if that is the case in Liechtenstein, but all of these comparisons are apples to oranges, due to variations in local culture and demographics.  Both San Fransico & Detroit are very liberal politcally, and have very restrictive gun regulations, with populations well in excess of Leichtenstin; but while San Fran is about as dangerous as my own mid-sized mid-eastern city (which is to say, not very dangerous) Detroit is one of the most dangerous places on Earth.  There is no definitive evidence that gun control has any non-neglible effect on crime, and all the evidence in the world that it does have an effect on the legal availability of firearms and only the legal availablilty of firearms.  We can both produce plenty of studies that confirm our biases, no doubt.  What you guys seem to lack ability to do is justify why?  By what logic do you guys justify subjugating my daughter to her armed rapist?  Maybe gun control would exchange the rapist's primary weapon from a handgun to a legth of iron pipe or a knife, but what consolation is that?  So that I can say at her funeral, "at least he didn't shoot her"?  Even if gun control laws did suppress overall crime rates, who are you to deny my daughter her basic human right of self-preservation?
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August 28, 2012, 08:12:52 PM
 #235

A borderline-homicidal Caucasian is more likely to kill a Negroid than he is to kill another Caucasian, considering primal xenophobia and all.

Seriously, dude; where did you pull that bullshit from? 
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August 28, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
 #236

Is Xenophobia a primal instinct?

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August 28, 2012, 08:19:37 PM
 #237

A borderline-homicidal Caucasian is more likely to kill a Negroid than he is to kill another Caucasian, considering primal xenophobia and all.
Bullshit.
Myth busted.

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August 28, 2012, 08:21:02 PM
 #238

Even if gun control laws did suppress overall crime rates, who are you to deny my daughter her basic human right of self-preservation?

I wouldn't hold your breath on this one. When the best answer they can give is "I'm afraid of them", they tend to avoid the question.

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August 28, 2012, 08:51:31 PM
 #239

Canada is an unfair comparison.  The culture is so dramticly different as to make any direct comparisons difficult.  Which is true with pretty much every nation, so I don't put much stock in such comparisons anyway, but I used that to point out the fundamental error of Rarity's premise.  Gun control does not lead to reduced incidents of violent crime within that culture.  In every nation that has an outright ban on civilian owned handguns, the rate of all forms of violent crime have increased over a period of years since.  I'm not trying to compare Britain to the US, I'm comparing Britain before and after.

WTF? Canadian's culture is dramatically different? Wow. I never heard that one before? Well so who has the closer culture to USA than Canada? I really want to know!


Canada is a much more continuous culture, being primarily a colony of the British Empire; while the US is the result of 200+ years of global immigration, most of which was not from the British Empire after 1880.  We have the Italian 'mafiso' culture, both directly from Italy and indirectly from other European & colonized cultures affected by 'mafiso' culture themselves.  We have 300+ years of an independent 'frontiersman'/'cowboy' culture that developed here.  We have Jews, Christians, Catholics & Mormans; all of whom have had their own periods on both sides of violent persecution.  We have native & imported aboriginal cultures, some of which are so deeply intergrated into the local population even the US government doesn't bother to note a distinction. (http://www.yuchi.org/ is just one example, since they still exist where my wife's family is from, another is the Black Wolf Cherokee tribe of Kentucky, which was, according to my grandmother, my great-grandfather's family)

I'm sorry, but there is no culture quite as diverse in this world as the US, and diversity often leads to tension and conflicts that would not likely occur within a more uniform national culture.

Quote

Are you really kidding here?  The Swiss have a national milita that trains annually with firearms that they are required by law to keep in their homes with ammunition.  That would be every single adult & able bodied male citizen between 18 and 45.  Do you really think that the Swiss need CCW?  Do you think that an intruder is going to think "hey, they can't shoot me because their magazines are sealed"?

May be should stop reading silly websites?

Quote
Every soldier equipped with the Sig 550 assault rifle used to be issued 50 rounds of ammunition in a sealed box, to be opened only upon alert. The ammunition was to be loaded into the rifle magazine for use by the militiaman should any need arise while he was en route to join his unit. Any use other than this, or even unsealing, was strictly forbidden. This practice was stopped due to safety concerns.

Vampire is always right, repeat after me. Swiss must keep their semi auto disassembled, and don't even have ammo for it. Buying ammo is highly illegal there.


At least I can site websites that actully support my claims.  The Swiss often need a permit to buy ammunition, but what says that they have to keep it disassembled?   And who is going to be checking to make sure that a father of three has his Sig in teh proper state of storage?

Quote

Another milita nation, not a anti-gun culture.  The only nation in the world that requires all women to serve in the military & in combat positions.  Again, CCW is inmaterial in Israel.

Outside of army and police, and settlers that live in West Bank - guns are illegal in Israel. Mostly because that arabs wouldn't buy them. Again, vampire is right.

As noted, like the Swiss, Israel is a militia state.  Therefore all able bodied citizens, that are not convicted criminals, physically impaired, mentally unstable or contentious objectors are members of the extended state military structure, somwhere along the scale of fully enlisted and active miltary service to inactive reserve status.  (BTW, this is also how the USMC treats it's relationship with retired marines; as one I am a marine till I die)  Unlike the Swiss, this includes women over 18; whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim, (although they give mulsims a pass if they want it, in practice).  Once again, the fact that their milita is well regulated does not undermine my position.  Regardless of what the laws say, the weapons are both present and distributed across the population.  The fact that Israel does not permit guns that they don't issue to the population is functionally irrelevant.
Quote
Laws, maybe.  That's debatable.  Gun culture, no.  LEt me see a NYC militia march in the parade some time, and if they aren't booed I'll concede you might have a point here.

Really? There are plenty militarized cops in NYC, same as in Israel. Israel doesn't have militia.



Cops are not militia, they represent the state as a matter of occupation.  As bitcoinchemist noted, you don't seem to know what a militia actually is in this context.  It has nothing to do with survivalists drinking beer and shooting up trees waiting for the UN invasion.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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August 28, 2012, 08:56:12 PM
 #240

A borderline-homicidal Caucasian is more likely to kill a Negroid than he is to kill another Caucasian, considering primal xenophobia and all.
Bullshit.
Myth busted.

Good thing you acknowleged your misconseption.  I was ready to label you as a troll for making obviously contentious and offensive claims without any support.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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