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Poll
Question: As a gun control advocate, have you or a close family member ever owned a firearm?
Yes - 28 (19.9%)
No - 21 (14.9%)
I am not a gun control advocate. - 92 (65.2%)
Total Voters: 141

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Author Topic: Poll for Gun Control Advocates  (Read 17526 times)
AntiCap
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August 18, 2012, 09:54:23 PM
 #61

"Matured" into acting out of fear, rather than logic?

When you grow up, you'll realize there's no need to fear peaceful people.

Is that the same logic that you used before? "If we arm everybody and put them in a violent society, there will be peace"?
Did you know that in the UK most police doesn't carry a gun? And while they have slightly higher crime rates, they have fewer homicides by gun, or gun crimes overall. And carrying a gun has a stiff penalty attached. Someone mentioned in another thread that incentives work. Indeed they do.

I don't fear peaceful people. Never have. I do however want it to be damn hard for someone intoxicated, psychotic or otherwise mentally unhinged to get access to a gun. People do go bat-shit crazy sometimes, even for short periods of time. Drugs, desperation, something else, it does happen.
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myrkul
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August 18, 2012, 10:00:42 PM
 #62

"Matured" into acting out of fear, rather than logic?

When you grow up, you'll realize there's no need to fear peaceful people.

Is that the same logic that you used before? "If we arm everybody and put them in a violent society, there will be peace"?
Did you know that in the UK most police doesn't carry a gun? And while they have slightly higher crime rates, they have fewer homicides by gun, or gun crimes overall. And carrying a gun has a stiff penalty attached. Someone mentioned in another thread that incentives work. Indeed they do.

I don't fear peaceful people. Never have. I do however want it to be damn hard for someone intoxicated, psychotic or otherwise mentally unhinged to get access to a gun. People do go bat-shit crazy sometimes, even for short periods of time. Drugs, desperation, something else, it does happen.

And when it does, I want to be able to defend myself, and my family, thanks.

Yes, if you arm everyone (especially the peaceful people), in a violent society (such as the US), there will be peace. More guns, Less crime. If you outlaw guns, the peaceful, law-abiding people are the ones who give them up first. That leaves them in the hands of the violent criminals...

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drakahn
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August 18, 2012, 10:05:26 PM
 #63

someone bat-shit crazy is more likely to get a gun if guns are criminal, criminals don't do mental health checks

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August 18, 2012, 10:48:35 PM
 #64

"Matured" into acting out of fear, rather than logic?

When you grow up, you'll realize there's no need to fear peaceful people.

Is that the same logic that you used before? "If we arm everybody and put them in a violent society, there will be peace"?
Did you know that in the UK most police doesn't carry a gun? And while they have slightly higher crime rates, they have fewer homicides by gun, or gun crimes overall. And carrying a gun has a stiff penalty attached. Someone mentioned in another thread that incentives work. Indeed they do.

I don't fear peaceful people. Never have. I do however want it to be damn hard for someone intoxicated, psychotic or otherwise mentally unhinged to get access to a gun. People do go bat-shit crazy sometimes, even for short periods of time. Drugs, desperation, something else, it does happen.

The UK is a criminals' utopia. As a criminal, not only can you murder, rape, maim, and commit all lesser crimes with effective impunity, but if your victims defend themselves with absolutely reasonable force or even lesser force, THEY go to prison.

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August 19, 2012, 07:37:49 AM
 #65

And when it does, I want to be able to defend myself, and my family, thanks.

Yes, if you arm everyone (especially the peaceful people), in a violent society (such as the US), there will be peace. More guns, Less crime. If you outlaw guns, the peaceful, law-abiding people are the ones who give them up first. That leaves them in the hands of the violent criminals...

You don't have to worry about the violent criminals, unless you're a violent criminal yourself. They attack each others, rarely anybody else. Other people are collateral damage. The people you need to worry about are your neighbors.  Peaceful, law-abiding citizens that at one time might combine the wrong medication with alcohol and become psychotic. You have a better chance of defending yourself if both carry something else than a gun, and the effects are often less tragic.
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August 19, 2012, 07:41:53 AM
 #66

And when it does, I want to be able to defend myself, and my family, thanks.

Yes, if you arm everyone (especially the peaceful people), in a violent society (such as the US), there will be peace. More guns, Less crime. If you outlaw guns, the peaceful, law-abiding people are the ones who give them up first. That leaves them in the hands of the violent criminals...

You don't have to worry about the violent criminals, unless you're a violent criminal yourself. They attack each others, rarely anybody else.

I don't think we live in the same reality.

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AntiCap
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August 19, 2012, 08:15:04 AM
 #67

And when it does, I want to be able to defend myself, and my family, thanks.

Yes, if you arm everyone (especially the peaceful people), in a violent society (such as the US), there will be peace. More guns, Less crime. If you outlaw guns, the peaceful, law-abiding people are the ones who give them up first. That leaves them in the hands of the violent criminals...

You don't have to worry about the violent criminals, unless you're a violent criminal yourself. They attack each others, rarely anybody else.

I don't think we live in the same reality.

This is the case in most of the EU.
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August 19, 2012, 08:16:14 AM
 #68

And when it does, I want to be able to defend myself, and my family, thanks.

Yes, if you arm everyone (especially the peaceful people), in a violent society (such as the US), there will be peace. More guns, Less crime. If you outlaw guns, the peaceful, law-abiding people are the ones who give them up first. That leaves them in the hands of the violent criminals...

You don't have to worry about the violent criminals, unless you're a violent criminal yourself. They attack each others, rarely anybody else.

I don't think we live in the same reality.

This is the case in most of the EU.
No shops get robbed/extorted? No one gets mugged?

If criminals only interact with criminals, why would what they do be illegal?

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August 19, 2012, 08:18:44 AM
 #69

And when it does, I want to be able to defend myself, and my family, thanks.

Yes, if you arm everyone (especially the peaceful people), in a violent society (such as the US), there will be peace. More guns, Less crime. If you outlaw guns, the peaceful, law-abiding people are the ones who give them up first. That leaves them in the hands of the violent criminals...

You don't have to worry about the violent criminals, unless you're a violent criminal yourself.
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drakahn
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August 19, 2012, 08:19:32 AM
 #70

And when it does, I want to be able to defend myself, and my family, thanks.

Yes, if you arm everyone (especially the peaceful people), in a violent society (such as the US), there will be peace. More guns, Less crime. If you outlaw guns, the peaceful, law-abiding people are the ones who give them up first. That leaves them in the hands of the violent criminals...

You don't have to worry about the violent criminals, unless you're a violent criminal yourself.

You don't need to worry about the batman, unless you are the batman yourself.

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AntiCap
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August 19, 2012, 12:21:59 PM
 #71

And when it does, I want to be able to defend myself, and my family, thanks.

Yes, if you arm everyone (especially the peaceful people), in a violent society (such as the US), there will be peace. More guns, Less crime. If you outlaw guns, the peaceful, law-abiding people are the ones who give them up first. That leaves them in the hands of the violent criminals...

You don't have to worry about the violent criminals, unless you're a violent criminal yourself.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/624/my_parents_are_deeaaaaaad.jpg

You get your view of the world from comics?
AntiCap
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August 19, 2012, 12:23:39 PM
 #72

"Matured" into acting out of fear, rather than logic?

When you grow up, you'll realize there's no need to fear peaceful people.

Is that the same logic that you used before? "If we arm everybody and put them in a violent society, there will be peace"?
Did you know that in the UK most police doesn't carry a gun? And while they have slightly higher crime rates, they have fewer homicides by gun, or gun crimes overall. And carrying a gun has a stiff penalty attached. Someone mentioned in another thread that incentives work. Indeed they do.

I don't fear peaceful people. Never have. I do however want it to be damn hard for someone intoxicated, psychotic or otherwise mentally unhinged to get access to a gun. People do go bat-shit crazy sometimes, even for short periods of time. Drugs, desperation, something else, it does happen.

The UK is a criminals' utopia. As a criminal, not only can you murder, rape, maim, and commit all lesser crimes with effective impunity, but if your victims defend themselves with absolutely reasonable force or even lesser force, THEY go to prison.

Please back that up with some statistics. Love to see it.
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August 19, 2012, 12:29:38 PM
 #73

No shops get robbed/extorted? No one gets mugged?

If criminals only interact with criminals, why would what they do be illegal?

Sure they do. Rarely with any fatalities though.
Obviously it's not only between criminals, but the majority of gun violence is between them. Which is what I was talking about, if that was unclear. It's so rare that you don't have to worry about it. I mean, you could get hit by an asteroid tomorrow, but you don't worry about that, do you?
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August 19, 2012, 12:37:30 PM
 #74

No shops get robbed/extorted? No one gets mugged?

If criminals only interact with criminals, why would what they do be illegal?

Sure they do. Rarely with any fatalities though.
Obviously it's not only between criminals, but the majority of gun violence is between them. Which is what I was talking about, if that was unclear. It's so rare that you don't have to worry about it. I mean, you could get hit by an asteroid tomorrow, but you don't worry about that, do you?

The majority of gun violence occurs between the violent criminals because that's the only situation where both sides have guns. True, the shopkeep doesn't get shot, but that's because he handed over the cash when the criminal started waving around a pistol. The mugging victim doesn't get shot, but that's because he handed over his watch and wallet as soon as the criminal pulled the gun. The home invasion robbery victims don't get shot, but that's because they cowered in a corner as soon as the criminals shoved shotguns in their faces. The rape victim doesn't get shot, but that's because she didn't resist when the rapist pointed a gun at her.

There's no violence, if you don't resist. Doesn't mean there wasn't a crime.

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AntiCap
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August 19, 2012, 02:26:49 PM
 #75

The majority of gun violence occurs between the violent criminals because that's the only situation where both sides have guns. True, the shopkeep doesn't get shot, but that's because he handed over the cash when the criminal started waving around a pistol. The mugging victim doesn't get shot, but that's because he handed over his watch and wallet as soon as the criminal pulled the gun. The home invasion robbery victims don't get shot, but that's because they cowered in a corner as soon as the criminals shoved shotguns in their faces. The rape victim doesn't get shot, but that's because she didn't resist when the rapist pointed a gun at her.

There's no violence, if you don't resist. Doesn't mean there wasn't a crime.

I still think there's violence, even if somebody doesn't resist, however ...

...the shopkeeper doesn't get shot because he handed over the money. That's a good thing, right? Nobody shot. If bullets start flying there's probably going to be at least one fatality. Same with the mugging victim, or home invasion (how common is that, really?). And unless you're about to shoot uncle Bob, or your co-worker at the Christmas party, or any other acquaintance,  guns don't really help much against rape either. You do know that rapes by strangers are rare, right?

I do see a lot of benefits to guns, just not in the hands of every man, woman and child on the planet.
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August 19, 2012, 02:46:06 PM
 #76

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/gallery?section=news/local&id=8604253&photo=1

Read that they got shot and did not do a damn thing, now if they had a gun to protect themselves they could be alive today.

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August 19, 2012, 03:12:54 PM
 #77

The majority of gun violence occurs between the violent criminals because that's the only situation where both sides have guns. True, the shopkeep doesn't get shot, but that's because he handed over the cash when the criminal started waving around a pistol. The mugging victim doesn't get shot, but that's because he handed over his watch and wallet as soon as the criminal pulled the gun. The home invasion robbery victims don't get shot, but that's because they cowered in a corner as soon as the criminals shoved shotguns in their faces. The rape victim doesn't get shot, but that's because she didn't resist when the rapist pointed a gun at her.

There's no violence, if you don't resist. Doesn't mean there wasn't a crime.

I still think there's violence, even if somebody doesn't resist, however ...

...the shopkeeper doesn't get shot because he handed over the money. That's a good thing, right? Nobody shot. If bullets start flying there's probably going to be at least one fatality. Same with the mugging victim, or home invasion (how common is that, really?). And unless you're about to shoot uncle Bob, or your co-worker at the Christmas party, or any other acquaintance,  guns don't really help much against rape either. You do know that rapes by strangers are rare, right?

I do see a lot of benefits to guns, just not in the hands of every man, woman and child on the planet.

If cousin Sally regularly carries her S&W Ladysmith wherever she goes, maybe Uncle Bob thinks twice about doing anything untoward. Maybe that co-worker decides to just have another drink instead of following her into the supply closet, on the off chance she really did just need to go get some rubber bands. Maybe the mugger sees the pistol on the guy's hip and decides that this guy will not be the easy mark he was hoping for. Maybe the robber thinks twice when he sees the sign on the door: "Warning, Cashier is ARMED." As to the home invasion, well, have a peek at this.

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drakahn
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August 19, 2012, 03:19:18 PM
 #78

" As to the home invasion, well, have a peek at this.

The police here would have him charged with murder and pushed for trial as an adult... The courts would have (hopefully) let him go free, I know of one story of a guy getting cleared after he shot an intruder (with a gun he wasn't meant to have), We have gun control, but also a legal obligation to do anything to protect ourselves, that anything part is the kicker, reasonable force when your life is under threat, is deadly force, But we are not allowed to have weapons to help with that.

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BitcoinINV
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August 19, 2012, 03:29:10 PM
 #79

This is all I have to say

AntiCap
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August 19, 2012, 04:57:59 PM
 #80

If cousin Sally regularly carries her S&W Ladysmith wherever she goes, maybe Uncle Bob thinks twice about doing anything untoward. Maybe that co-worker decides to just have another drink instead of following her into the supply closet, on the off chance she really did just need to go get some rubber bands. Maybe the mugger sees the pistol on the guy's hip and decides that this guy will not be the easy mark he was hoping for. Maybe the robber thinks twice when he sees the sign on the door: "Warning, Cashier is ARMED." As to the home invasion, well, have a peek at this.

Except that's not how most rapes happen. Read a bit more about it. Uncle Bob starts with a few innocent things that eventually progresses. The colleague takes advantage of someone that had too much to drink, or changed her mind when they reached the bedroom.
A mugger that sees an armed person will hopefully not attack, or they will see the threat and act to neutralize it first. All depending on the level of desperation. Same goes for the shopkeeper. Shoot first and get money later. In any case the assault will be more violent, not less.

As for the home invasion, well, I got scolded earlier for using anecdotal evidence by someone on this forum. Is that something that goes both ways?
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