[Bitforce SC] Cooling performance and acoustics request

[KIDC]

I haven't been a member of this community for long. For the few that know me so far you may have noticed that I try to be "super manner" as much as possible. In this vein I don't want to project an image like I'm making a demand or complaining, because I'm not. However I do feel strongly about this issue. With that out the way let me begin.

I have 6 Rev 3. BFL Singles running in my house. I've already reversed the fan orientations on all 6 units and I'm currently considering replacing the fans with high quality versions. The cooling systems that ship for these FPGAs are nowhere near the 32db stated on the BFL website. Yes, I am aware that they have the highest profitability and performance of any current mining hardware. If BFL can deliver on the ASICs within their timeframe and performance statements then they are going to crush everybody else. Their only limiting factor for sales will most likely be their customer service reputation and turnaround time for assembly and delivery.

Now I've already ordered 6 Single SCs, bringing my investment with BFL to approximately $8k USD. So they already have my money, and I was one of the first who send them their money. For me, cooling performance and noise is a big buying decision and is the only real thing I don't like about the FPGA Singles. I have quite a bit of experience with various cooling systems, to the point where I could perhaps even be qualified in designing heatsinks/fan systems. My previous mining operation had aftermarket heatsink solutions on the GPUs - to the point where they were far quieter than normal and had superior cooling performance. The was accomplished by much larger surface area for heat dissipation and larger, lower RPM fans. Now I would love to own a mini-rig but that's out of the question for now so I can't comment on it's cooling performance or acoustics - however I can say that in my opinion the cooling system for the FPGA Singles is designed for aesthetics and not cooling performance.

What I am requesting for the upcoming ASIC line is the opposite. Nice Aesthetics are a bonus of course, but I value cooling performance and low acoustics a much higher priority. I highly doubt the aesthetics are a purchasing decision for almost anybody when looking at this hardware. Apparently ASIC manufacturing, especially full custom, has a long lead time so it may be too late for me to make this request a reality. The units may already have shipped. However if they are still in the design phase for cooling then I would like to see 120mm, low RPM fans with larger surface area per watt of heat output. It's completely possible to build a cooling system that can operate at ambient of 90 Fahrenheit at sub 30 decibels 24/7 and stay at 60 Celsius or below. I know this because I already have several devices that do this and their power consumption for the die far exceeds the approximately 60 watts of the FPGA Single.

I'd like to see what other members of the community think - both current, prospective, and never-ever BFL customers. This isn't an attempt to start yet another BFL drama thread either - this is an honest request to BFL. This is an important issue from me since I have to live 10 feet away from all the units that I own. I'm not sure what others think so that's another reason for this thread. If you think I'm being unreasonable, let me know. Otherwise I'd appreciate it if we could debate this in this thread so that BFL can see what their clientbase considers to be a priority (or not if that's the case).

Since I expect him to become the sole forum contact, I would like Inaba to make a comment on this also once he has started at BFL and has been brought up to speed.

Thank you all for reading - let the debate begin.

- KIDC

[Unacceptable]

 It's completely possible to build a cooling system that can operate at ambient of 90 Fahrenheit at sub 30 decibels 24/7 and stay at 60 Celsius or below. I know this because I already have several devices that do this and their power consumption for the die far exceeds the approximately 60 watts of the FPGA Single.

- KIDC

That is where I was disappointed in the FPGA Single........designed for an enviroment of 72 Fahrenheit???

PLEASE,design the SC's for at least 80-90 Fahrenheit enviroments!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MOST folks will be running these in thier HOMES,not in a data center........or the arctic

Thanks for bringing this up KIDC  

[BFL-Engineer]

 It's completely possible to build a cooling system that can operate at ambient of 90 Fahrenheit at sub 30 decibels 24/7 and stay at 60 Celsius or below. I know this because I already have several devices that do this and their power consumption for the die far exceeds the approximately 60 watts of the FPGA Single.

- KIDC

That is where I was disappointed in the FPGA Single........designed for an enviroment of 72 Fahrenheit???

PLEASE,design the SC's for at least 80-90 Fahrenheit enviroments!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MOST folks will be running these in thier HOMES,not in a data center........or the arctic

Thanks for bringing this up KIDC 

Regarding the operating temperature of the SC series, they are very temperature-tolerant.
We expect even higher than 90 Fahrenheit operating temperature tolerance.


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

[nedbert9]

 It's completely possible to build a cooling system that can operate at ambient of 90 Fahrenheit at sub 30 decibels 24/7 and stay at 60 Celsius or below. I know this because I already have several devices that do this and their power consumption for the die far exceeds the approximately 60 watts of the FPGA Single.

- KIDC

That is where I was disappointed in the FPGA Single........designed for an enviroment of 72 Fahrenheit???

PLEASE,design the SC's for at least 80-90 Fahrenheit enviroments!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MOST folks will be running these in thier HOMES,not in a data center........or the arctic

Thanks for bringing this up KIDC  

Regarding the operating temperature of the SC series, they are very temperature-tolerant.
We expect even higher than 90 Fahrenheit operating temperature tolerance.


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

I'm curious about the science behind this.  Would this have anything to do with TPD / area ratio?  In my mind it would seem that it would be favorable to have a high degree of area utilization.

What are the physics behind heat tolerance when comparing the FPGA and ASIC materials and fabrication?  Does circuit complexity (magnified by FPGA program-ability) have a large bearing on this?

[Unacceptable]

 It's completely possible to build a cooling system that can operate at ambient of 90 Fahrenheit at sub 30 decibels 24/7 and stay at 60 Celsius or below. I know this because I already have several devices that do this and their power consumption for the die far exceeds the approximately 60 watts of the FPGA Single.

- KIDC

That is where I was disappointed in the FPGA Single........designed for an enviroment of 72 Fahrenheit???

PLEASE,design the SC's for at least 80-90 Fahrenheit enviroments!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MOST folks will be running these in thier HOMES,not in a data center........or the arctic

Thanks for bringing this up KIDC 

Regarding the operating temperature of the SC series, they are very temperature-tolerant.
We expect even higher than 90 Fahrenheit operating temperature tolerance.


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

  Thanks for responding BFL-Engineer 

I sure hope so.My Single is mining @ 760 mh/s instead of the 830 or so that I expected,only because my room temp is around 80 Fahrenheit.

Other than that temp issue, my Single has been running non-stop since I recieved it & has been flawless

I will be trading it "up" for a SC Single soon 

[KIDC]

Well, I had hope to get more responses to this. However I did get some good responses - thank you for those that did share their opinion. Thanks especially to BFL-Engineer for responding in an official capacity.

I think I should make a TL;DR a mandatory requirement for any future book-sized post that I make. LOL.

[Unacceptable]

I read the whole post,but the part about temps is what I focused on due to my experience with my own BFL Single.

Please,don't restrict your posts,I found this one to be very informative & thought provoking  

Keep em coming  

[dlasher]

For me, cooling performance and noise is a big buying decision....

It's uncommon in the engineering world to sell/pre-sell hardware without providing specs like power usage, heat load/btu, rack space requirements, weight, etc. While I realize BFL might trying to maintain a competitive edge, or in some cases might not even KNOW the answer, there should at least be 'expected' values that may change with shipping product.. (IE the way everyone else pre-sells)

BFL, either provide those numbers publicly for at least the two largest devices (SC/Rig), or come up with a way to provide it to -verifed- purchasers of hardware under some sort of non-disclosure. As someone who has purchased what I suspect will be several racks of hardware, this is crucial information.

[KIDC]

I read the whole post,but the part about temps is what I focused on due to my experience with my own BFL Single.

Please,don't restrict your posts,I found this one to be very informative & thought provoking  

Keep em coming  

Thanks Unacceptable, you're like, my biggest fan lol. And I'll keep them coming, but I'll try include a TL;DR section for my longer posts. I know I'm frustrated reading a book-sized post only to not learn anything.

For me, cooling performance and noise is a big buying decision....

It's uncommon in the engineering world to sell/pre-sell hardware without providing specs like power usage, heat load/btu, rack space requirements, weight, etc. While I realize BFL might trying to maintain a competitive edge, or in some cases might not even KNOW the answer, there should at least be 'expected' values that may change with shipping product.. (IE the way everyone else pre-sells)

BFL, either provide those numbers publicly for at least the two largest devices (SC/Rig), or come up with a way to provide it to -verifed- purchasers of hardware under some sort of non-disclosure. As someone who has purchased what I suspect will be several racks of hardware, this is crucial information.

Well, BFL has not released exact power consumption numbers yet. However BFL_Josh has stated that they will not be more than their FPGA-based equivalent, which gives a solid ceiling on power consumption. I'd make an estimate of maybe 65-70 watts for the Single SC. Not sure about the minirig because I'm not familiar with the specs on the FPGA model anyway. I understand why BFL is wary about releasing their exact power numbers - as they were raked over the coals on this forum for missing the mark on their freshman product, so understandably this time they are waiting until they are sure on exact power consumption for all shipping products in the SC range. This doesn't bother me.

The noise and throttling issues however, are still up in the air - so I wanted to try and get a debate going. I didn't expect a response from BFL regarding this (but I did get one, thank you BFL-Engineer), and I've been told by BFL since that they are expecting a big improvement in the noise level. It's hard to state what "silent" is to people though, since everybody's opinion differs on this. I'll have to hear (or not hear hopefully) when I take delivery of my Single SC units.

- KIDC

[organofcorti]

It's hard to state what "silent" is to people though, since everybody's opinion differs on this.

Simple enough - if BFL-Engineer would like to pass on the sound intensity (in dBA, from 500Hz to 8kHz) of the SC Singles running at the standard hashrate in 30 degrees C edit: at one metre, then you'll get a good idea of how loud they are likely to get.

[Unacceptable]

I read the whole post,but the part about temps is what I focused on due to my experience with my own BFL Single.

Please,don't restrict your posts,I found this one to be very informative & thought provoking  

Keep em coming  

Thanks Unacceptable, you're like, my biggest fan lol. And I'll keep them coming, but I'll try include a TL;DR section for my longer posts. I know I'm frustrated reading a book-sized post only to not learn anything.

Don't get all 'bigheaded" now,I'm a fan of folks that make me think  You just happen to do just that