Which Paypal TOS forbids BTC?

[darsie]

Hi!

Didn't find it.

[Darktongue]

I'm to lazy to research. I don't care enough about paypal to look ether. I pulled all my money out of it years ago. I think I have like 40cents in the account that deposited from some Adnetwork. What I find hilarious.. Is ebay owns paypal right? No Bitcoin can be bought with paypal. But you can sell bitcoins on ebay. 

[SaltySpitoon]

Edit*
Please note: PayPal's consumer protection programs only apply to tangible, physical goods which can be shipped, and excludes everything else, including but not limited to: intangibles, services


The one where it says you can't buy/sell virtual items. Its not that they hate BTC, its that they hate having to file through claims of things that can't easily be proven, so they just banned it.

You also aren't allowed to sell game items, your soul, that kind of thing.

I'm to lazy to research. I don't care enough about paypal to look ether. I pulled all my money out of it years ago. I think I have like 40cents in the account that deposited from some Adnetwork. What I find hilarious.. Is ebay owns paypal right? No Bitcoin can be bought with paypal. But you can sell bitcoins on ebay.  

The way to get around Paypal chargebacks is to give the buyer a physical thing. How people sell BTC on paypal is they might right down a code to redeem BTC, but they also send them a button, or a pin, or something worthless, but then when they get the notice that paypal is charge backing them, they have Ebay shipping confirmation, Shipping confirmation from the post office, and proof of delivery.

[DeathAndTaxes]

You really think that works.

1) The PayPal account is stolen/hacked.  You really think PayPal is going to reverse a chargeback because someone had "goods" delivered using a stolen/hacked PayPal account?

2) The user claims PayPal account is stolen/hacked.  You really think PayPal is going to investigate it deeply?

3) The user claims the item is "materially different than represented"  (i.e. the button is scratched).  They return the button and keep the coins.  In this case your are right you won't get a chargeback and you will get your button back but you won't ever see the xxx BTC again.

These aren't rocket science scams.  The weakest two bit hustler can pull them off without spending more than a couple minutes on it.  If you think PayPal provides any real protection for sellers well it is just naive.

[SaltySpitoon]

Well, I'm just speaking from experience, I have never gotten the raw end of the deal through paypal, I'm not sure why everyone seems to always have problems with paypal, but I never have. (Maybe Aussy Paypal is better than elsewhere?)

I'v purchased BTC with Paypal no problem, I'v sold virtual items with paypal, and had a few disputes, in which case, I just sent them screen shots of our chat longs (agreement to buy virtual game items) and then them agreeing that they received the item or items again on the sites chat log. Paypal gave my $ back within a few minutes, and the other persons had their accounts closed.

Maybe the difference is having a business account vs a regular account?

[Stephen Gornick]

Well, I'm just speaking from experience, I have never gotten the raw end of the deal through paypal, I'm not sure why everyone seems to always have problems with paypal, but I never have.

It eventually becomes a numbers game.  If you are only doing small person-to-person trades, infrequently and neither side has chargeback issues, you probably can keep trading bitcoins using PayPal for quite some time.

But when you start trading suddenly for larger amounts (e.g., more than a thousand dollars a month or a multiple of previous monthly average amount) or you start doing a ton of transactions -- especially involving funds from the buyer's credit card, or either you or your counterparty has chargebacks ... then you are playing with fire.  And you will get burned.

Here's the specific terms:

 - https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_popup

Prohibited Activities
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
3. h) involve currency exchanges or check cashing businesses,

And if you'ld like to see a heartwarming story about the aftermath after Paypal realized some trader was selling bitcoins and followed that discovery by reversing 20 or so recent transactions and then freezing the funds, start here:
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83679.msg1001602#msg1001602

[Raoul Duke]

And if you'ld like to see a heartwarming story about the aftermath after Paypal realized some trader was selling bitcoins and followed that discovery by reversing 20 or so recent transactions and then freeze the funds, start here:
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83679.msg1001602#msg1001602

Not really. All they realized was that he was having to much movement for a Non-Verified account and blocked it until he presented them with documents. He was 17 and breaking Paypal ToS, so they closed his account.
Paypal can be blamed for closing lots of accounts for trading on Bitcoin, but TheBitMan wasn't one of those

[darsie]

Here's the specific terms:

 - https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_popup

Prohibited Activities
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
3. h) involve currency exchanges or check cashing businesses,

Thanks. But how is it then, that Linden Labs can sell Linden Dollars for Paypal then? Did they make a deal with PP like implementing chargebacks for this exception? Or are L$ not considered a currency by PP while BTC are?

Does trading L$ with Paypal comply to PP TOS for everyone else, too?

[darsie]

Please note: PayPal's consumer protection programs only apply to tangible, physical goods which can be shipped, and excludes everything else, including but not limited to: intangibles, services

That means, buyers can't make chargebacks for reasons like 'Item not as described'. Only when they claim 'account hacked'.

The one where it says you can't buy/sell virtual items. Its not that they hate BTC, its that they hate having to file through claims of things that can't easily be proven, so they just banned it.

You also aren't allowed to sell game items, your soul, that kind of thing.

Which PP TOS is that? Are you sure you are not mixing that up with ebays TOS?

[tyldavies202]

its such a long process getting bitcoins i wish paypal did support them.

[Kazimir]

its such a long process getting bitcoins i wish paypal did support them.

Paypal is total crap. Do everybody a favor (especially yourself ) and avoid that shit like the plague.

What's the problem with exchanges. Transfer money, buy bitcoins, keep them in a savings wallet and you'll have bitcoins available whenever you need them.

Something it seems like people are keeping their savings and assets in fiat money, and only buying bitcoins at the very moment when they urgently need them. Stupid.

[DeathAndTaxes]

That means, buyers can't make chargebacks for reasons like 'Item not as described'. Only when they claim 'account hacked'.

Hardly.  The issue with PayPal isn't JUST PayPal it is also that they allow funding by reversible means.   If the payment which funded the account gets reversed PayPal will also reverse the payment to the seller.

So even if a scammer (to include so called "friendly fraud") loses the PayPal dispute they can chargeback the transaction with their credit card company.  Those companies gets hundreds of thousands of chargeback requests every DAY (yes every DAY).  They give a request all of about 15 seconds.  Unless it looks very suspicious or their computers find some "weird" patterns they rubber stamp it.

So

TL/DR version:
You deliver
Customer disputes with PayPal
You win dispute (very unlikely)
Customer wins chargeback using credit card issuer
PayPal loses funds
You lose fund

[deus-ex-machina]

Linden Dollars are considered a service, and are therefore allowed. In addition, LL is covered by their own ToS, which states that reversing the payment will nullify the L$ and ban the would-be thief.

The reason they are a service is because it is a premium feature of a game and because the L$ have no actual value. You can't, for example, buy a soda for L$ in a real cafeteria.

[Trake]

Interesting. 

[Talksun]

People still use Paypal? Thats surprising in my eyes

[PayPal]

People still use Paypal? Thats surprising in my eyes

Mine too!

[Charlie Prime]

My outrageous final straw was when an Ebay "buyer" attempted to blackmail me by holding my 10 year 100% rating hostage.

Ebay did nothing to stop this scam.

Screw 'em.  They lost my business forever.

[stepkrav]

so what's a good paypal alternative for Europe's citizens?

[fm1234]

@stepkrav:  Moneybookers and WebMoney, particularly the latter if you're in Eastern Europe. 


Frank