An easy way to make bitcoin worth millions of dollars

[Kprawn]

Well, I think this is where services like BitPay is not helping at the moment. {Converting BTC directly to fiat}

The merchant that accepted BTC should not be able to convert ALL the BTC it received, INSTANTLY back to fiat. {I know they do offer the merchant the option to choose, what percentage they want to instantly convert to fiat}

Let's say BitPay or any other payment processor agree with merchants, that it would hodl the coins, until a 1% to 3% increase in the value occur and then sell it, then we would see some short term rise in the price...or even better, if they can hoard it for a longer period, until the price increase.

Yes, this is price manipulation....but it's being done will all commodities, eg. {Oil / Corn / Gold etc. etc...} ....so why must Bitcoin be any different?  

[futureofbitcoin]

Well, I think this is where services like BitPay is not helping at the moment. {Converting BTC directly to fiat}

The merchant that accepted BTC should not be able to convert ALL the BTC it received, INSTANTLY back to fiat. {I know they do offer the merchant the option to choose, what percentage they want to instantly convert to fiat}

Let's say BitPay or any other payment processor agree with merchants, that it would hodl the coins, until a 1% to 3% increase in the value occur and then sell it, then we would see some short term rise in the price...or even better, if they can hoard it for a longer period, until the price increase.

Yes, this is price manipulation....but it's being done will all commodities, eg. {Oil / Corn / Gold etc. etc...} ....so why must Bitcoin be any different?  

Because then merchants wouldn't agree to accept bitcoin, and then bitcoin users would never have any place to spend bitcoins, and thus bitcoin dies a quiet death?

[ranlo]

Well, I think this is where services like BitPay is not helping at the moment. {Converting BTC directly to fiat}

The merchant that accepted BTC should not be able to convert ALL the BTC it received, INSTANTLY back to fiat. {I know they do offer the merchant the option to choose, what percentage they want to instantly convert to fiat}

Let's say BitPay or any other payment processor agree with merchants, that it would hodl the coins, until a 1% to 3% increase in the value occur and then sell it, then we would see some short term rise in the price...or even better, if they can hoard it for a longer period, until the price increase.

Yes, this is price manipulation....but it's being done will all commodities, eg. {Oil / Corn / Gold etc. etc...} ....so why must Bitcoin be any different? 

Because then merchants wouldn't agree to accept bitcoin, and then bitcoin users would never have any place to spend bitcoins, and thus bitcoin dies a quiet death?

Yeah, this is a tough area. These services hurt Bitcoin, to a point, but they are also what bring value to it. The only other way to make Bitcoin catch on would be to get merchants to accept it down the line (meaning customer -> end store -> supplier -> manufacturer -> material provider, and everyone in between each of these steps). Without this, at some point it has to be turned into fiat regardless.

[Q7]

that is why the infrastructure is important. To encourage spending, there must be stores accepting it. Most of the time, when I purchase 1 bitcoin, I will end up hoarding it for some time until I find places or merchants that accept bitcoin. I'm not saying the theory is not workable, in fact it is what happening right now, but instead of spending and the whole process reduces supply in the market, we ended up holding it longer, so the spending cycle is not working.

[zebedee]

Well done, you've figured out why the USD is worth so much even though the world is stuffed with them.

[ranlo]

Well done, you've figured out why the USD is worth so much even though the world is stuffed with them.

USD increases in number to compensate for holding. Bitcoin is finite. Two very different things you're talking about here.

[Beatkoyn]

Imagine such a use case:

Bob is a bitcoiner, he spend $300 to buy 1 bitcoin from exchange, then he pays a merchant in another city to buy some car parts, and that merchant sell the bitcoin to exchange to get dollar back

Looking at the whole process, the action has no net effect for the market: The bitcoins on exchange first decreased by 1 bitcoin and then increased by exactly 1 bitcoin. However, the details are more interesting

After Bob bought his coin, he need to transfer it to his wallet, this will take an hour. Then it takes another hour before his coin reach the merchant's wallet, and another hour before the merchant could send coin to exchange and sell it. So this trade makes one bitcoin disappear from the exchange for 3 hours. If Bob make one trade every 3 hours, one bitcoin will permanently disappear from the market, not available for purchase at any moment

If there are millions of users doing one such purchase every 3 hours, then there will be millions of bitcoins disappear from the market, thus make the coin extremely difficult to get, and its value will skyrocket

This process does not cost anything, and it does not hurt anyone:
- Bob does not take any risk since he immediately spend his coins and he might even get some discount
- Merchant get increased income due to lower fees and more customer
- Exchanges earn commission both ways
- Bitcoin become more scarce and more valuable
- Dollar is not affected since same amount of fiat money are still needed to initialize and finalize the transaction

It is an all-win situation

From Bob's point of view, he has motivation to make all his daily consumption pass through bitcoin, since that will make his coin more valuable. Some other people might choose to purchase in batch, and spend after a long time, from weeks to years, that will generate the same effect. Holding a bitcoin indefinitely is the same as using it every day, it just make this coin occupied and not available on market forever

So, increased usage will make bitcoin more scarce and raise its value, and raised value will increase its usage, a positive feedback loop. This could be the trend for the coming years



We all know that MV=PQ is a formula for quantitative theory of money. But what is the effect of above case on this formula, e.g. by converting dollar first into and then out of bitcoin during a trade?

It seems nothing changed for dollar: You still need same amount of dollar to do the trade, and the speed that dollar flows is the same (Dollar settlements between banks are done once a day)

This means, if we could make all the economy activity pass through bitcoin, it will make bitcoin economy exactly the same size as existing economy without affecting the original one, just like duplicating the whole economy into bitcoin monetary system

This just shows how absurd it is to use the formula MV=PQ to decide money's value and supply. But anyway, if you use this theory, then bitcoin's value will inevitably go to millions by this practice

In this case, unlike dollar, the demand for transaction with bitcoin does not mainly come from the absolute need for payment medium, but from an intention to make bitcoin more valuable, strange motivation but have logic reason

The issue is that while theoretically this would work, in reality it wouldn't. People would speculate. They would dump. They would manipulate to boost their values, then drop them back down to re-buy (like we already see).

Bitcoin is likely not to become a true currency. Think of it as being more like gold, an investment vehicle. Does it have value? Yes. But you won't take gold to the store to buy things. You'll convert to cash first. Same with Bitcoin. It's simply not feasible for me to stand at a gas pump for over an hour waiting on confirmations.

Saying this... Your method is not as easy as you think.

It would be easy if all people on the planet earth, thinks and acts like you.

[johnyj]

Well, I think this is where services like BitPay is not helping at the moment. {Converting BTC directly to fiat}

The merchant that accepted BTC should not be able to convert ALL the BTC it received, INSTANTLY back to fiat. {I know they do offer the merchant the option to choose, what percentage they want to instantly convert to fiat}

Let's say BitPay or any other payment processor agree with merchants, that it would hodl the coins, until a 1% to 3% increase in the value occur and then sell it, then we would see some short term rise in the price...or even better, if they can hoard it for a longer period, until the price increase.

Yes, this is price manipulation....but it's being done will all commodities, eg. {Oil / Corn / Gold etc. etc...} ....so why must Bitcoin be any different?  

True, what you suggested will increase the holding time and make those coins disappear from exchange for even longer time, and my use case just showed that even BitPay instantly convert the BTC into fiat, the bitcoin that used for transaction would still be occupied during the transition phase, which is 3 hour maximum, and 1 hour minimum. During this time frame the bitcoins for that specific transaction were not available on exchanges

In MV=PQ formula, V (money turn over times per year) is 0.05 when you hold coins for 20 years as a retirement fund, and it is 365 when you spend coins once a day, in my use case it is 365x8=2920 (8 times per day, and 365 times per year) for a immediate transaction. Then M is 21 million, Q is world GDP at 75 trillion, then you get a P of 1223 dollar per bitcoin if bitcoin is used every 3 hours, and 8x that value if used once a day, and 96x of that value if used once a year

[Daniel91]

Yes, it is possible.
Bitcoin should become mainstream.
It means that we need much more users and many more merchants accepting BTC.
But, there is no easy way to achieve millions of dollars and it's not realistic in short period of time.

[Frost]

I assume this is how professional traders do already manipulate the market.

[Gleb Gamow]

The issue is that while theoretically this would work, in reality it wouldn't. People would speculate. They would dump. They would manipulate to boost their values, then drop them back down to re-buy (like we already see).

Bitcoin is likely not to become a true currency. Think of it as being more like gold, an investment vehicle. Does it have value? Yes. But you won't take gold to the store to buy things. You'll convert to cash first. Same with Bitcoin. It's simply not feasible for me to stand at a gas pump for over an hour waiting on confirmations.

For small consumptions like gas pump you might not need confirmation, and I suppose that you have already stored your bitcoin before you go to gas station, so average holding time is already longer than 3 hours, mission completed

Holding it long term like gold works the same as spending it around all the time. but the weakness of holding method is that eventually you must spend it, and that will cause an excessive supply on market, but when you spend it all the time, it just never become available on market

Speculation just add another layer of volatility above fundamentals, the fundamental is increased consumption will decrease supply, thus create long term appreciation tendency

True, unless the price gets to where people don't feel comfortable buying in again. One of Bitcoin's biggest flaws, IMO, is the number system. People don't like the idea of spending $1000 for a single coin. But they may do $10 for a coin (if there were 100x as many coins it would work out to be the same, but we psychologically infer the values differently). I think this is one of the big hurdles.

That's what I, among others, proposed when bitcoin hit $100, then again at $1,000. Thus, at today's rate, ~$300 per would be ~$30 per, with 9 decimal places oppose to the current 8. Nobody measures their dick in kilometers unless joking, even though it's entirely possible. Or, what percentage, expressed in decimals, of an oil tanker's capacity does it take to top off ones fuel tank of their ride (assuming crude oil and petro are synonymous, which they're not)?

[Beliathon]

The issue is that while theoretically this would work, in reality it wouldn't. People would speculate. They would dump. They would manipulate to boost their values, then drop them back down to re-buy (like we already see).

Bitcoin is likely not to become a true currency. Think of it as being more like gold, an investment vehicle. Does it have value? Yes. But you won't take gold to the store to buy things.

Many companies are already allowing you to do precisely that.

You'll convert to cash first. Same with Bitcoin. It's simply not feasible for me to stand at a gas pump for over an hour waiting on confirmations.

Fiat isn't going to exist for very long after the bitcoin moment. Even before that, you don't need to and won't convert. For transactions valued less than $100, zero confirmations is fine as long as you show that you've sent the transaction. For amounts up to $500, 1 confirmation is fine. Up to $2000, 2 confirmations. Up to 10,000, 3 confirmations. You get the idea. If a business really doesn't trust you, they can get a digital copy of your ID or similar in case anything goes wrong.

[EMIF]

Your theory could work only to some point.

For example:
-Current Bitcoin market cap is about 4 billion dollars.
-Assume that all bitcoins are in circulation(I know it is not true, but my point is different).
-Your theory needs that every 3 hours there should be at least 4 billion dollars txs.
-And lets say there is an average 8 billions USD txs.
-So what will happen ? At first , your theory can work and BTC price doubled or tripled. But at this point total bitcoins used in txs will be decreased due to increased BTC price.
-Total real world  market txs wont change too much. Every 3 hours there will be consumed nearly same amount gasoline or bread or other things. So at first you moved 14 million BTC from the market but when price tripled the needed BTC will be 1/3 or 1/2 of total amount. So , when price increases , the needed amount of Bitcoin will be decreased.

In long term , market cap of bitcoin in real world applications will increase. Most of mall or shopping centres will accept Bitcoin and need for Bitcoin will increase. But this will take time. And also I believe Bitcoin price will be around 1 Million dollars. But not in a near future and not in your way (or at your speed).

[CrackedLogic]

I assume this is how professional traders do already manipulate the market.

There are not that many traders that I am aware of that are able to manipulate it and have a great effect.
Right now, I can imagine lot's of bots trading with each other in small to medium amounts that would slowly have make bitcoin
have an increasing or decreasing value.

[johnyj]

Your theory could work only to some point.

For example:
-Current Bitcoin market cap is about 4 billion dollars.
-Assume that all bitcoins are in circulation(I know it is not true, but my point is different).
-Your theory needs that every 3 hours there should be at least 4 billion dollars txs.
-And lets say there is an average 8 billions USD txs.
-So what will happen ? At first , your theory can work and BTC price doubled or tripled. But at this point total bitcoins used in txs will be decreased due to increased BTC price.
-Total real world  market txs wont change too much. Every 3 hours there will be consumed nearly same amount gasoline or bread or other things. So at first you moved 14 million BTC from the market but when price tripled the needed BTC will be 1/3 or 1/2 of total amount. So , when price increases , the needed amount of Bitcoin will be decreased.

In long term , market cap of bitcoin in real world applications will increase. Most of mall or shopping centres will accept Bitcoin and need for Bitcoin will increase. But this will take time. And also I believe Bitcoin price will be around 1 Million dollars. But not in a near future and not in your way (or at your speed).

Nice point! What you said is true, and you looked deeper than I into the sequence

Still, I don't think the effect will be totally nullified. Let's imagine, at first you have no consumption pass through bitcoin at all, and then you let all your monthly consumption of $3000 pass through bitcoin, that requires 10 bitcoins. Suppose that make the bitcoin price reach $600,  that will reduce the amount of bitcoins you need to do transaction, so later you need only 5 bitcoins to do your transaction, and the other 5 returned to market to increase its supply, so the price drops back to $450, that will  increase the amount that you need to do transaction , and you have to buy 1.67 more to do transaction ..... So after many forth and back feedback it will be somewhere around $470, not exactly doubled, but still much better than before

And you are right that the total real world consumption does not change at all, you still consume what you used to consume. So the added value of bitcoin is purely caused by transaction demand, nothing else. But this is also the theory that decide fiat money's value

[thejaytiesto]

that is why the infrastructure is important. To encourage spending, there must be stores accepting it. Most of the time, when I purchase 1 bitcoin, I will end up hoarding it for some time until I find places or merchants that accept bitcoin. I'm not saying the theory is not workable, in fact it is what happening right now, but instead of spending and the whole process reduces supply in the market, we ended up holding it longer, so the spending cycle is not working.

The problem with spending bitcoin is it feels to valuable to the average joe. A person buys 1 bitcoin, and this person treats it like an ounce of gold, not like some coins you use to buy groceries. So people tend to hold, or dump if they dont have patience and are scared.

The people dumping btc instantly for fiat are the big ass whales like overstock (whales in the sense of people running millionaire business). Also mining whales that need to pay expenses.

[ranlo]

The issue is that while theoretically this would work, in reality it wouldn't. People would speculate. They would dump. They would manipulate to boost their values, then drop them back down to re-buy (like we already see).

Bitcoin is likely not to become a true currency. Think of it as being more like gold, an investment vehicle. Does it have value? Yes. But you won't take gold to the store to buy things. You'll convert to cash first. Same with Bitcoin. It's simply not feasible for me to stand at a gas pump for over an hour waiting on confirmations.

For small consumptions like gas pump you might not need confirmation, and I suppose that you have already stored your bitcoin before you go to gas station, so average holding time is already longer than 3 hours, mission completed

Holding it long term like gold works the same as spending it around all the time. but the weakness of holding method is that eventually you must spend it, and that will cause an excessive supply on market, but when you spend it all the time, it just never become available on market

Speculation just add another layer of volatility above fundamentals, the fundamental is increased consumption will decrease supply, thus create long term appreciation tendency

True, unless the price gets to where people don't feel comfortable buying in again. One of Bitcoin's biggest flaws, IMO, is the number system. People don't like the idea of spending $1000 for a single coin. But they may do $10 for a coin (if there were 100x as many coins it would work out to be the same, but we psychologically infer the values differently). I think this is one of the big hurdles.

That's what I, among others, proposed when bitcoin hit $100, then again at $1,000. Thus, at today's rate, ~$300 per would be ~$30 per, with 9 decimal places oppose to the current 8. Nobody measures their dick in kilometers unless joking, even though it's entirely possible. Or, what percentage, expressed in decimals, of an oil tanker's capacity does it take to top off ones fuel tank of their ride (assuming crude oil and petro are synonymous, which they're not)?

You mean moving to 7 decimals, right? This would increase the pre-decimal side by one (multiplying supply by 10). Moving to 9 decimals would do the opposite, dividing by 10.

[picolo]

Well, I think this is where services like BitPay is not helping at the moment. {Converting BTC directly to fiat}

The merchant that accepted BTC should not be able to convert ALL the BTC it received, INSTANTLY back to fiat. {I know they do offer the merchant the option to choose, what percentage they want to instantly convert to fiat}

Let's say BitPay or any other payment processor agree with merchants, that it would hodl the coins, until a 1% to 3% increase in the value occur and then sell it, then we would see some short term rise in the price...or even better, if they can hoard it for a longer period, until the price increase.

Yes, this is price manipulation....but it's being done will all commodities, eg. {Oil / Corn / Gold etc. etc...} ....so why must Bitcoin be any different?  

Maybe it can be bearish in the short term but I think it is obviously bullish long term.

[picolo]

then you might need an extra database to track the balance of each clients.

What if I don't want to?  You are the one wanting to decrease the already existing utility!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.  

I am not really upset about it, I am just pointing out what you propose may sound good "in theory" but the repercussions will effect a lot of things that you may not have thought of.  

I still don't understand how removing some coins from exchanges will decrease the already existing utility? what utility?

What I propose is not something new, some bitcoiners have been advocating this for years, I just got it more clearly recently. What do you think made up those large sales number that reported by those merchants? I suppose a large part of those sales consists of this kind of "pass through" transactions, and it indeed have some positive effect on increasing merchant adoption and stabilizing the exchange rate

The increase use of Bitcoin increase its price. The dollar is very volatile against most assets like gold and fiat currencies move a lot one against an other.

[asuryan180]

Yes, it is possible.
Bitcoin should become mainstream.
It means that we need much more users and many more merchants accepting BTC.
But, there is no easy way to achieve millions of dollars and it's not realistic in short period of time.

Possible but seriously unlikely, even if it goes mainstream that does not give us a million dollar tag does it, at the moment there is no need for bitcoin if there is finally a need for it then we will reach thousands i am sure but million lol