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Author Topic: Liberals, why do you like Bitcoin?  (Read 14389 times)
epi 1:10,000
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May 31, 2011, 11:03:04 PM
 #81

It has the potential to hamper the government's ability to run society by allowing for citizens to control the earnings of their labor in an anonymous private environment. There is little accountability in a citizen paying their dues. How could you like this? Why are you here? Why don't you just keep supporting the US dollar or other fiat currencies?

I cant speak for anyone else but this godless heathen believes in a just meritocracy.  Competition, the ability to adapt and include all groups plays to humanities strengths.  Bitcoin may be dangerous to inflexible dictatorial governments but I don't see it as a threat to flexible liberal democracies. I see it as a vehicle to support the proliferation of liberal democracy in that you can allow funding of such underground movements in countries ruled by monarchs and dictators. I think those trying to avoid paying taxes in Europe and North America using bitcoin will be quite disappointed.  Bitcoin represents a payment system that helps small business because of its low transaction fees and low barriers to entry.  If one decides to filter the world through the distorted lens of Objectivism to the exclusion of all other philosophies and advances in human knowledge then one endangers oneself of of putting oneself at odds with reality.
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May 31, 2011, 11:24:49 PM
 #82

It has the potential to hamper the government's ability to run society by allowing for citizens to control the earnings of their labor in an anonymous private environment. There is little accountability in a citizen paying their dues. How could you like this? Why are you here? Why don't you just keep supporting the US dollar or other fiat currencies?

I cant speak for anyone else but this godless heathen believes in a just meritocracy.  Competition, the ability to adapt and include all groups plays to humanities strengths.  Bitcoin may be dangerous to inflexible dictatorial governments but I don't see it as a threat to flexible liberal democracies. I see it as a vehicle to support the proliferation of liberal democracy in that you can allow funding of such underground movements in countries ruled by monarchs and dictators. I think those trying to avoid paying taxes in Europe and North America using bitcoin will be quite disappointed.  Bitcoin represents a payment system that helps small business because of its low transaction fees and low barriers to entry.  If one decides to filter the world through the distorted lens of Objectivism to the exclusion of all other philosophies and advances in human knowledge then one endangers oneself of of putting oneself at odds with reality.

This would be a great post, if a "flexible liberal democracy" existed anywhere on Earth.  But since there is no such thing, it's kinda moot.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
epi 1:10,000
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May 31, 2011, 11:37:53 PM
 #83

It has the potential to hamper the government's ability to run society by allowing for citizens to control the earnings of their labor in an anonymous private environment. There is little accountability in a citizen paying their dues. How could you like this? Why are you here? Why don't you just keep supporting the US dollar or other fiat currencies?

I cant speak for anyone else but this godless heathen believes in a just meritocracy.  Competition, the ability to adapt and include all groups plays to humanities strengths.  Bitcoin may be dangerous to inflexible dictatorial governments but I don't see it as a threat to flexible liberal democracies. I see it as a vehicle to support the proliferation of liberal democracy in that you can allow funding of such underground movements in countries ruled by monarchs and dictators. I think those trying to avoid paying taxes in Europe and North America using bitcoin will be quite disappointed.  Bitcoin represents a payment system that helps small business because of its low transaction fees and low barriers to entry.  If one decides to filter the world through the distorted lens of Objectivism to the exclusion of all other philosophies and advances in human knowledge then one endangers oneself of of putting oneself at odds with reality.

This would be a great post, if a "flexible liberal democracy" existed anywhere on Earth.  But since there is no such thing, it's kinda moot.

I hope bitcoin will help introduce flexibility but I certainly empathize with others peoples frustration with what they see as inflexible bureaucracies.  As soon as flexible liberal democracy turns to tyrany in the minds of the majority of its citizens.... watch out.
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June 01, 2011, 12:18:37 AM
 #84

It has the potential to hamper the government's ability to run society by allowing for citizens to control the earnings of their labor in an anonymous private environment. There is little accountability in a citizen paying their dues. How could you like this? Why are you here? Why don't you just keep supporting the US dollar or other fiat currencies?

I cant speak for anyone else but this godless heathen believes in a just meritocracy.  Competition, the ability to adapt and include all groups plays to humanities strengths.  Bitcoin may be dangerous to inflexible dictatorial governments but I don't see it as a threat to flexible liberal democracies. I see it as a vehicle to support the proliferation of liberal democracy in that you can allow funding of such underground movements in countries ruled by monarchs and dictators. I think those trying to avoid paying taxes in Europe and North America using bitcoin will be quite disappointed.  Bitcoin represents a payment system that helps small business because of its low transaction fees and low barriers to entry.  If one decides to filter the world through the distorted lens of Objectivism to the exclusion of all other philosophies and advances in human knowledge then one endangers oneself of of putting oneself at odds with reality.

This would be a great post, if a "flexible liberal democracy" existed anywhere on Earth.  But since there is no such thing, it's kinda moot.

I hope bitcoin will help introduce flexibility but I certainly empathize with others peoples frustration with what they see as inflexible bureaucracies.  As soon as flexible liberal democracy turns to tyrany in the minds of the majority of its citizens.... watch out.

It seems you missed the point.  There is no democracy anywhere on Earth, much less a liberal or flexible one.  There cannot be a flexible liberal democracy without a democracy first!

And if one were to arise, you probably wouldn't like the results.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
epi 1:10,000
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June 01, 2011, 12:22:08 AM
 #85



It seems you missed the point.  There is no democracy anywhere on Earth, much less a liberal or flexible one.  There cannot be a flexible liberal democracy without a democracy first!

And if one were to arise, you probably wouldn't like the results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy   I think our misunderstanding comes from the mistaken assumption of an agreed upon definition of liberal democracy.
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June 01, 2011, 01:05:34 AM
 #86



It seems you missed the point.  There is no democracy anywhere on Earth, much less a liberal or flexible one.  There cannot be a flexible liberal democracy without a democracy first!

And if one were to arise, you probably wouldn't like the results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

Representative republics are not democracies.  Wikipedia is only as accurate at the people who contribute articles.  The distinction between a representative republic and a democracy is not trivial.  I've witnessed real democracy up close, and larger than a church business meeting or a town hall, (roughly 800 voting members) democracy becomes unscalable.  The results are not pretty.  I've actually personally witnessed fistfights at contentious church meetings.  This is why church splits are so common among Baptist congregations.

Democracy is one person, one vote; all votes equal.  I challenge you to find that at a nation-state level.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 01, 2011, 01:57:12 AM
 #87

Democracy is one person, one vote; all votes equal.  I challenge you to find that at a nation-state level.

Does Switzerland count? They allow an elected legislature to handle the day-to-day, but still have the power to vote on whatever they want. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland#Direct_democracy
epi 1:10,000
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June 01, 2011, 05:36:36 AM
 #88



It seems you missed the point.  There is no democracy anywhere on Earth, much less a liberal or flexible one.  There cannot be a flexible liberal democracy without a democracy first!

And if one were to arise, you probably wouldn't like the results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

Representative republics are not democracies.  Wikipedia is only as accurate at the people who contribute articles.  The distinction between a representative republic and a democracy is not trivial.  I've witnessed real democracy up close, and larger than a church business meeting or a town hall, (roughly 800 voting members) democracy becomes unscalable.  The results are not pretty.  I've actually personally witnessed fistfights at contentious church meetings.  This is why church splits are so common among Baptist congregations.

Democracy is one person, one vote; all votes equal.  I challenge you to find that at a nation-state level.

Wow I have never seen a physical confrontation in or out of a church meeting, maybe heated words (no expletives).  Of course all the churches I have gone to people exercize the right to bear arms, ya know sell your cloak and buy a sword and all.
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June 01, 2011, 01:55:37 PM
 #89



It seems you missed the point.  There is no democracy anywhere on Earth, much less a liberal or flexible one.  There cannot be a flexible liberal democracy without a democracy first!

And if one were to arise, you probably wouldn't like the results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

Representative republics are not democracies.  Wikipedia is only as accurate at the people who contribute articles.  The distinction between a representative republic and a democracy is not trivial.  I've witnessed real democracy up close, and larger than a church business meeting or a town hall, (roughly 800 voting members) democracy becomes unscalable.  The results are not pretty.  I've actually personally witnessed fistfights at contentious church meetings.  This is why church splits are so common among Baptist congregations.

Democracy is one person, one vote; all votes equal.  I challenge you to find that at a nation-state level.

Wow I have never seen a physical confrontation in or out of a church meeting, maybe heated words (no expletives).  Of course all the churches I have gone to people exercize the right to bear arms, ya know sell your cloak and buy a sword and all.

I witnessed this particular fistfight at a church business meeting wherein the church elders had decided to fire the preacher because that same preacher had a gambling addiction, a fact that they were aware of when they hired him a decade prior.  For nine years he was prohibited from any personal access to the church funds, and then suddenly the elders gave him an expense fund with a credit card.  Three months later he was back into his addiction, exactly as they expected he would be.  It was rude.  The elders had county sherriffs at the meeting, and members were prohibited from entering the church armed.  The fights broke out when the elders also announced that they had called the state police about theft of funds for gambling purposes.  The irony is that the state couldn't get him on charges, because he was a sports gambler and he was good.  Not only was there no money lost, he actually turned a profit.  OF course they ended up getting him anyway because gambling profits are taxable income even if you are exempt from income taxes because you are a preacher, so in the end that preacher spent four years in federal prison for tax evasion while the majority of the church ejected six of nine elders who participated in the event.  Roughly a third of the church membership left with them and started another church down the road about a half mile.  That was six years ago, so by now that preacher is out of prison.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 01, 2011, 01:59:32 PM
 #90

Democracy is one person, one vote; all votes equal.  I challenge you to find that at a nation-state level.

Does Switzerland count? They allow an elected legislature to handle the day-to-day, but still have the power to vote on whatever they want. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland#Direct_democracy

Switzerland is close, but their cantons are even closer.  There is at least one better example, but if you elect representatives, it's not democracy.  Still, Switzerland is a European parlimentary model, wherein voters elect a party not an individual.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 01, 2011, 04:19:51 PM
 #91

the united states is not truely a "democracy" like the propaganda machine likes to turn out. the us is a republic, whose "elected" officials make the decisions, not your voting majority. these elected officials will do what is best for them to get re-elected, not what is best for the country or what the majority of citizens want. they always will do whatever fattens up their pockets the fastest. seriously, our government is so incredibly broken it is not even funny. people need to get off their american "high horse" and realize things are falling apart. fiat money is failing because the federal reserve just keeps printing our money and loaning it to us with interest, spending billions of propogandanized "war on terror" faking the assasinations of terrorist leaders and funneling our tax money to themselves and their globalist friends.

for example:

2 days after the FCC approval of the NBC/Comcast merger (NBC is owned by GE) which had a great deal of opposition due to the monolopy that NBC/Comcast would become(owning the content AND the delivery system) a head of the FCC resigned and was given the positin of "head of governmental affairs" at GE.

A government agency who'se purpose is to protect our citizens from abuse over the public media outlets blatantly disregards the financial effects of such a merger because she got hooked up for life.

These things happen all the time and people are more concerned about who is going to be on dancing with the stars and charley sheen.

We need a working/middle class revolution against the elite's blatant abuse of our tax dollars. Bitcoin(for now) is a monetary source free from government taxation and coruption, which is part of the reason I support the movement and hope it grows.

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June 04, 2011, 06:10:36 PM
 #92

Money, if it exists as a popular idea, should be a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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June 04, 2011, 08:10:54 PM
 #93

I think there is no way you could provide social-democratic type of welfare with "honest hard money system". I think welfare is largely based on the dishonesty of the fiat currency and central banking. Fiat currency and ever-growing public debt is a way around the fact that welfare simply leads to bankruptcy. Plain and simple. People just don't see how their money is stolen from them until the government is completely bankrupt like in Greece. With "honest hard money system" people would see it from the start and there would be soon a bloody revolt. If you think you could just rise taxes for some rich people and fund welfare to millions of unproductive types, you are a lunatic.

This is so true. Liberal (or rather socialistic) welfare is not sustainable.

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June 05, 2011, 12:15:13 AM
 #94

It has the potential to hamper the government's ability to run society by allowing for citizens to control the earnings of their labor in an anonymous private environment. There is little accountability in a citizen paying their dues. How could you like this? Why are you here? Why don't you just keep supporting the US dollar or other fiat currencies?


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Are you just trying to stir the pot? Or are you not seeing the endgame?
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youtube.com/ericfontainejazz now accepts bitcoin


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June 06, 2011, 07:46:05 PM
 #95

I see BitCoin as a more secure way to handle money with low transaction fees. Not that I like taxes but governments could still tax corporations and individuals in a BitCoin economy.

And land taxes.  And conscription.  And tarrifs.  Etc.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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