Bitcoin Forum
June 16, 2024, 06:02:29 AM *
News: Voting for pizza day contest
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Defend Taxation  (Read 6133 times)
myrkul (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
August 06, 2012, 10:08:35 PM
 #1

This is for all the statists out there...

The defining characteristic of a State is that it is funded by taxation. All governments, throughout time, have had this feature, regardless of other trappings, ideologies,or policies.

My challenge to you is simple: Defend that practice.

My contention is that taxation is theft. Taxation is the extortion, by violence or threat of violence, of the funding necessary to run the government. Refute that, if you can.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
asdf
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 527
Merit: 500


View Profile
August 06, 2012, 11:19:59 PM
 #2

I'd dispute that taxation is ' extortion, by violence or threat of violence'. The origins of government are clear in the name, it's modern day meaning has become twisted in the same way as 'corporation'. Government does not necessarily mean 'the state', governor was once a common term for any kind of overseer and societies infrastructure is more effectively and efficiently maintained when overseen centrally, when done correctly taxation is justified.


So taxation ISN'T extortion through threat of violence!? Wow, I didn't know that! I've been paying taxes all this time... I'll never fill out another tax return.
myrkul (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
August 06, 2012, 11:22:55 PM
 #3

I'd dispute that taxation is ' extortion, by violence or threat of violence'.

Thank you for offering debate.

I'd like to present a little evidence, in the form of definitions, as to the fact that taxes are indeed a form of extortion.

First: Tax
Quote
tax   [taks]
noun
1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support

Now, Extort
Quote
ex·tort   [ik-stawrt]
verb (used with object)
1. Law. a. to wrest or wring (money, information, etc.) from a person by violence, intimidation, or abuse of authority; obtain by force, torture, threat, or the like.

Now, note: the word used in the "tax" definition is not "requested," not "desired," but "demanded." That reveals an interesting fact: Taxes are not voluntary.

Well, what happens when you say "no" to the tax man?

According to Wikipedia:
"Tax evasion is a crime in almost all developed countries and subjects the guilty party to fines and/or imprisonment. "

Key words there: fines, and imprisonment.

A fine is:
Quote
fine2    [fahyn]
noun
1. a sum of money imposed as a penalty for an offense or dereliction

And of course imprisonment is:
Quote
im·pris·on   [im-priz-uhn]
verb (used with object)
to confine in or as if in a prison.

So, if decide not to pay taxes, they will take more money, or throw you in a cage. But what if you say no to that?

Well, then they will make you. They will use force to make you comply. Hmm... where did I see that, before? Oh yes:
Quote
ex·tort   [ik-stawrt]
verb (used with object)
1. Law. a. to wrest or wring (money, information, etc.) from a person by violence, intimidation, or abuse of authority; obtain by force, torture, threat, or the like.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
myrkul (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
August 06, 2012, 11:41:06 PM
 #4

Touche, your definition is correct. In my defense I'm describing an ideal situation in which tax is paid willingly and the legal threat isn't needed, I can't justify my own corruption and incompetent governments taxation even at the best of times.

Well, even if the legal threat isn't needed, it's still there.

Allow me, if you will, to advance an alternative.

You agree that some services that government provides are necessary, and proper, yes?

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
Bitcoin Oz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 500


Wat


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2012, 12:09:13 AM
 #5

I think all government functions could be distributed to a local level and there is no need for a bloated central government.

Especially these days where we have the internet to communicate instantly and tools to allow collaboration of people.

myrkul (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2012, 12:13:25 AM
 #6

I think all government functions could be distributed to a local level and there is no need for a bloated central government.

...the services requiring taxation.

Those are the services I'm referring to, or at least some of them.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
nimda
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784
Merit: 1000


0xFB0D8D1534241423


View Profile
August 07, 2012, 12:27:12 AM
 #7

I'll bite.
Sure, the government does provide some services which are useful; I might even go so far as to say that a subset of those are "necessary."
myrkul (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2012, 12:36:22 AM
 #8

I'll bite.
Sure, the government does provide some services which are useful; I might even go so far as to say that a subset of those are "necessary."

Thanks. Smiley

I'd say yes but on reflection its hard to say what services would require government

You're making my case for me! Wink

I meant, specifically, that some services currently provided by government are necessary and useful. Some examples: Transportation infrastructure, mail, protection, and justice.

My case is that these services can be provided privately, without resorting to force to get people to pay for them. Because they are both useful and necessary, people will pay for them. Some of the other ones which while not necessary, are useful, such as welfare, and other social support services can be paid for voluntarily as well, because those who would not object to contributing would contribute voluntarily, to a charity which provides them.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
nimda
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784
Merit: 1000


0xFB0D8D1534241423


View Profile
August 07, 2012, 12:51:19 AM
 #9

Aha!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98916.0#new

If forcibly taxing a few rich people to make many poor people happy works, and it results in more total happiness than a charity would, then that taxation should be done. That's a big if-and, but I stand by the if-and-then. (Logically, taking the ((a AND b) --> c) as a whole, the whole is only false if (a is true, and b is true, and c is false)).
myrkul (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2012, 01:00:50 AM
 #10

Aha!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98916.0#new

If forcibly taxing a few rich people to make many poor people happy works, and it results in more total happiness than a charity would, then that taxation should be done. That's a big if-and, but I stand by the if-and-then. (Logically, taking the ((a AND b) --> c) as a whole, the whole is only false if (a is true, and b is true, and c is false)).

Except that forcible taxation has demonstrably been proven to create a great deal of unhappiness.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
nimda
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784
Merit: 1000


0xFB0D8D1534241423


View Profile
August 07, 2012, 02:13:16 AM
 #11

What if we silently stole all of Bill Gates' money and used it for welfare? Would that make many people happy?
myrkul (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2012, 02:21:25 AM
 #12

What if we silently stole all of Bill Gates' money and used it for welfare? Would that make many people happy?

I'm fairly certain it would... except for the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation, Bill & Melinda themselves, their kids (do they have kids? I'm not sure.), All the people they employ, Microsoft, etc. So while it might make some people happy for a while, it would cause deep and lasting harm to many others.

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
FirstAscent
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 812
Merit: 1000


View Profile
August 07, 2012, 03:41:37 AM
 #13

You're a tenant within the nation you live in. You are granted rights to "own" property, which does not have the same meaning as the way the nation owns property. You are free to agree to these terms, or leave.

Now, take the HOA as an example. You're free to stay, pay dues, be regulated, or leave, but you'll ultimately have to square up with the HOA. If you stay, but don't pay dues and refuse to be regulated while in the HOA, legal issues will befall you.
finkleshnorts
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336
Merit: 250



View Profile
August 07, 2012, 03:43:01 AM
 #14

here we go...
Tim Johnson
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 07, 2012, 03:43:58 AM
 #15

You're a tenant within the nation you live in. You are granted rights to "own" property, which does not have the same meaning as the way the nation owns property. You are free to agree to these terms, or leave.

Now, take the HOA as an example. You're free to stay, pay dues, be regulated, or leave, but you'll ultimately have to square up with the HOA. If you stay, but don't pay dues and refuse to be regulated while in the HOA, legal issues will befall you.
What happens when the tax is global and collected by the UN?
FirstAscent
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 812
Merit: 1000


View Profile
August 07, 2012, 03:45:17 AM
 #16

You're a tenant within the nation you live in. You are granted rights to "own" property, which does not have the same meaning as the way the nation owns property. You are free to agree to these terms, or leave.

Now, take the HOA as an example. You're free to stay, pay dues, be regulated, or leave, but you'll ultimately have to square up with the HOA. If you stay, but don't pay dues and refuse to be regulated while in the HOA, legal issues will befall you.
What happens when the tax is global and collected by the UN?

Complacency or rebellion, depending on the happiness of the people. Simple question. Simple answer.
Bitcoin Oz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 500


Wat


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2012, 03:48:28 AM
 #17

You're a tenant within the nation you live in. You are granted rights to "own" property, which does not have the same meaning as the way the nation owns property. You are free to agree to these terms, or leave.

Now, take the HOA as an example. You're free to stay, pay dues, be regulated, or leave, but you'll ultimately have to square up with the HOA. If you stay, but don't pay dues and refuse to be regulated while in the HOA, legal issues will befall you.

You cant leave and go somewhere else without permission - passports etc

There really isnt anywhere to escape too from government on earth.

FirstAscent
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 812
Merit: 1000


View Profile
August 07, 2012, 03:50:16 AM
 #18

You're a tenant within the nation you live in. You are granted rights to "own" property, which does not have the same meaning as the way the nation owns property. You are free to agree to these terms, or leave.

Now, take the HOA as an example. You're free to stay, pay dues, be regulated, or leave, but you'll ultimately have to square up with the HOA. If you stay, but don't pay dues and refuse to be regulated while in the HOA, legal issues will befall you.

You cant leave and go somewhere else without permission - passports etc

There really isnt anywhere to escape too from government on earth.

Then it appears that it's inevitable - government, that is. Ever considered then that AnCap won't last long, and evolve into government?
myrkul (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2012, 03:54:02 AM
 #19

You're a tenant within the nation you live in. You are granted rights to "own" property, which does not have the same meaning as the way the nation owns property. You are free to agree to these terms, or leave.

Where's the rental agreement? And if I don't own land, why am I being taxed for other things? And more importantly, why do they call it ownership, if it's really not?

BTC1MYRkuLv4XPBa6bGnYAronz55grPAGcxja
Need Dispute resolution? Public Key ID: 0x11D341CF
No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property. VIM VI REPELLERE LICET
FirstAscent
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 812
Merit: 1000


View Profile
August 07, 2012, 04:00:44 AM
 #20

You're a tenant within the nation you live in. You are granted rights to "own" property, which does not have the same meaning as the way the nation owns property. You are free to agree to these terms, or leave.

Where's the rental agreement?

Your W-4.

Quote
And if I don't own land, why am I being taxed for other things?

Because you're like a tenant of a landlord.

Quote
And more importantly, why do they call it ownership, if it's really not?

Semantics will never win an argument.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!