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Author Topic: The purpose of life and the goal of a perfect society  (Read 6544 times)
myrkul
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August 09, 2012, 12:29:46 AM
 #61

It'll look like they better open their goddamn doors Grin

Or maybe team up and wipe the new bully off the starcharts?

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nimda
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August 09, 2012, 12:40:57 AM
 #62

If they're strong enough to do that, we just wave MAD in their face.

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August 09, 2012, 12:46:53 AM
 #63

If they're strong enough to do that, we just wave MAD in their face.

...and that is...?

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August 09, 2012, 12:49:01 AM
 #64

Mutually Assured Destruction? Remember the Cold War? Those drills where they made us get under our desk, the "Duck and Cover" videos, the doom clock, etc

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myrkul
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August 09, 2012, 01:44:06 AM
 #65

Mutually Assured Destruction? Remember the Cold War? Those drills where they made us get under our desk, the "Duck and Cover" videos, the doom clock, etc

Are you an idiot? Do you actually think that a half-dozen space-faring civilizations can be wiped out simultaneously by one? it's not like we'll have nova-producing bombs pointed at every sun.

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August 09, 2012, 01:47:31 AM
 #66

Hey, maybe they open their doors to trade before we completely destroy them. Matthew Perry?

Could you be any more isolationist?

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August 09, 2012, 03:38:29 AM
 #67

Mutually Assured Destruction? Remember the Cold War? Those drills where they made us get under our desk, the "Duck and Cover" videos, the doom clock, etc

Are you an idiot? Do you actually think that a half-dozen space-faring civilizations can be wiped out simultaneously by one? it's not like we'll have nova-producing bombs pointed at every sun.
Hey, maybe they open their doors to trade before we completely destroy them. Matthew Perry?

Could you be any more isolationist?
Me? hwat.

I recommend asking me for a signature from my GPG key before doing a trade. I will NEVER deny such a request.
myrkul
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August 09, 2012, 03:41:14 AM
 #68

Me? hwat.

So, we're agreed, then, that being peaceful at first, and only fighting if attacked is the way to go?

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August 09, 2012, 03:58:00 AM
 #69

Me? hwat.

So, we're agreed, then, that being peaceful at first, and only fighting if attacked is the way to go?
So we're agreed, then, 5 BTC?

Hwat? He called me an isolationist. How in the world does my bewildered response of one word translate into agreement?

I'll agree on the "peaceful at first" part.

I recommend asking me for a signature from my GPG key before doing a trade. I will NEVER deny such a request.
myrkul
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August 09, 2012, 04:06:11 AM
 #70

Me? hwat.

So, we're agreed, then, that being peaceful at first, and only fighting if attacked is the way to go?
So we're agreed, then, 5 BTC?

Hwat? He called me an isolationist. How in the world does my bewildered response of one word translate into agreement?

I'll agree on the "peaceful at first" part.

Well, you quoted my response in the message, along with his, so I assumed it was a response to both.

Why won't you agree on the "only fight if we're attacked" part? Didn't we just go over how badly it would end if we attacked unprovoked? (No, saying, "Go away" is not provocation)

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August 09, 2012, 04:07:12 AM
 #71

Could you be any more isolationist?
Me? hwat.

Matthew Perry joke.


I'm just glad we can all get along.


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August 09, 2012, 04:12:55 AM
 #72

Me? hwat.

So, we're agreed, then, that being peaceful at first, and only fighting if attacked is the way to go?
So we're agreed, then, 5 BTC?

Hwat? He called me an isolationist. How in the world does my bewildered response of one word translate into agreement?

I'll agree on the "peaceful at first" part.

Well, you quoted my response in the message, along with his, so I assumed it was a response to both.

Why won't you agree on the "only fight if we're attacked" part? Didn't we just go over how badly it would end if we attacked unprovoked? (No, saying, "Go away" is not provocation)
It appears my response to you was lost (I'm on my phone). I wanted to wager 5 BTC that we'd be able to destroy planets or planet-inhabitants before we find sentient life.

I recommend asking me for a signature from my GPG key before doing a trade. I will NEVER deny such a request.
myrkul
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August 09, 2012, 04:17:27 AM
 #73

It appears my response to you was lost (I'm on my phone). I wanted to wager 5 BTC that we'd be able to destroy planets or planet-inhabitants before we find sentient life.

I have no idea what that even means. All the words are in English, but the order they're in makes no sense, at least not in the context of the discussion.

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nimda
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August 09, 2012, 04:43:37 AM
 #74

5 BTC. Bet. Wager.
Before humanity. Mankind.
Finds extraterrestrial, sentient life. Smart aliens.
Humanity. Mankind.
Will be able to either destroy entire planets (world bye-bye), or entirely wipe out said aliens. Extinct ET.


Yes or no? I'd prefer not to use escrow as the time value of my btc is quite high.

I recommend asking me for a signature from my GPG key before doing a trade. I will NEVER deny such a request.
myrkul
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August 09, 2012, 04:51:26 AM
 #75

5 BTC. Bet. Wager.
Before humanity. Mankind.
Finds extraterrestrial, sentient life. Smart aliens.
Humanity. Mankind.
Will be able to either destroy entire planets (world bye-bye), or entirely wipe out said aliens. Extinct ET.


Yes or no? I'd prefer not to use escrow as the time value of my btc is quite high.

You managed to find an even more confusing order, but though I was able to figure out what you're saying, your point is moot. Are we going to be able to wipe out ALL life in the universe? That's the only way MAD will work.

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organofcorti
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August 09, 2012, 06:13:27 AM
 #76

5 BTC. Bet. Wager.
Before humanity. Mankind.
Finds extraterrestrial, sentient life. Smart aliens.
Humanity. Mankind.
Will be able to either destroy entire planets (world bye-bye), or entirely wipe out said aliens. Extinct ET.

That's not a haiku.
Needs fewer consonants, nim.
Otherwise it's nice.

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August 09, 2012, 05:08:51 PM
 #77

5 BTC. Bet. Wager.
Before humanity. Mankind.
Finds extraterrestrial, sentient life. Smart aliens.
Humanity. Mankind.
Will be able to either destroy entire planets (world bye-bye), or entirely wipe out said aliens. Extinct ET.


Yes or no? I'd prefer not to use escrow as the time value of my btc is quite high.

You managed to find an even more confusing order, but though I was able to figure out what you're saying, your point is moot. Are we going to be able to wipe out ALL life in the universe? That's the only way MAD will work.
Not really. Tripolar conflicts have occurred before on a planet as small as ours. I can only imagine the differences between lifeforms in different solar systems would be large enough to support a multipolar MAD.

It occurs that nimda has a high chance of winning the bet, though. The fact that we are closer to discovering than being discovered indicates that we are far ahead of any other sentient life in close vicinity.

Though, certainly, destroying life is not nearly as efficient as trying to make peace or even ally with other sentient life. 5 + 1 = 6, while 5 − 1 = 4.
nimda
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August 09, 2012, 06:07:12 PM
 #78

So will you take the bet, myrkul?

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myrkul
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August 09, 2012, 11:30:02 PM
 #79

So will you take the bet, myrkul?

No, it's highly likely that we will have the capability of destroying at least ecosystems before we run into another sentience.

The point is, that even assuming we have Nova-bombs, capable of destroying entire solar systems, MAD does not work unless we know, ahead of time, who will be attacking, and have that nova bomb aimed at their home system, and that bomb, once fired, is unstoppable. Threatening any force that comes calling with mutually assured destruction only works if you can actually pull it off. Here's a hypothetical:

First race we come into contact with is isolationist. Following Nimda's strategy of knock once, then kick the door down, we force them to trade with us. Second race we run into is not isolationist, and, perhaps, has run into the first one. Their delegates ask us how we convinced them to trade. We reply, "Oh, orbital bombardment can be quite persuasive." After a brief discussion, verifying that, yes, we did just say what they thought we said, they call home, and get together 5 or 6 races that we have never even met before, and send their fleets to Earth. When the fleets arrive, we broadcast to them, "Greetings, don't fuck with us, or we'll blow up these two systems!" They send back "That would be unfortunate, but in the end, we would simply add that to the list of your crimes. We are not from those systems."

They then proceed to turn Earth back into a molten ball of rock.

Wouldn't it be better to just leave the isolationists alone, and trade with someone else?

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August 09, 2012, 11:42:35 PM
 #80

So will you take the bet, myrkul?

No, it's highly likely that we will have the capability of destroying at least ecosystems before we run into another sentience.

The point is, that even assuming we have Nova-bombs, capable of destroying entire solar systems, MAD does not work unless we know, ahead of time, who will be attacking, and have that nova bomb aimed at their home system, and that bomb, once fired, is unstoppable. Threatening any force that comes calling with mutually assured destruction only works if you can actually pull it off. Here's a hypothetical:

First race we come into contact with is isolationist. Following Nimda's strategy of knock once, then kick the door down, we force them to trade with us. Second race we run into is not isolationist, and, perhaps, has run into the first one. Their delegates ask us how we convinced them to trade. We reply, "Oh, orbital bombardment can be quite persuasive." After a brief discussion, verifying that, yes, we did just say what they thought we said, they call home, and get together 5 or 6 races that we have never even met before, and send their fleets to Earth. When the fleets arrive, we broadcast to them, "Greetings, don't fuck with us, or we'll blow up these two systems!" They send back "That would be unfortunate, but in the end, we would simply add that to the list of your crimes. We are not from those systems."

They then proceed to turn Earth back into a molten ball of rock.

Wouldn't it be better to just leave the isolationists alone, and trade with someone else?
Here's an interesting thought experiment.

What if we farm the isolationists? Sentience has a fuzzy definition, and by time we meet alien life they may be more similar to animals than humans. Maybe they use some tools from time to time, communicate with each other, have families, or some other things, but otherwise resembles animals. Would it be "right" to, because they are clearly incapable of resisting, put some in a zoo and farm the others for a valuable resource (say, their bodies produce diamond from carbon)?
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