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Author Topic: Business Model of new company 21 Inc predicted by Satoshi?  (Read 2012 times)
jonald_fyookball
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March 15, 2015, 04:29:11 PM
 #21

Do you mean instant confirmation? I think you have never heard about greenAddress, it is a web wallet with an instant confirmation (the only rule is that also the other part uses it). Now it can be used for any payment processor.
I used to use green address until after an update it stopped working altogether, another update later and it's back working but slow as to open, it's empty now so i won't be using it again.

Has someone got a quick explanation of how instant transactions work.

An instant transaction wouldn't really be "instant" it was just be "instantly trusted" by those in the network. It could work like this:

A multibillion dollar company establish good rapport in the community and acts as a middle man. Each of us has a "bank account" with them in which we keep some fraction of our bitcoin. This huge/trusted company has 1 well known public address. We walk into a store and use our app that is run by this company, we scan the stores QR code and the bitcoin is sent to the store from that well known public address on our behalf, then the well known company deducts that amount of bitcoin from our "bank account" with them.

The store then sees that the payment came from a well known/regulated/large company and that they "are good for it" meaning that they will not try to create any double spends, thus the transaction is still on the bitcoin blockchain and the transaction is "instantly trusted" by the store, allowing the store to then give the customer the goods with confidence that there will be no double spend and thus no need to wait for confirmations.

a way to do it without trusted parties is just query other nodes in real time for any attempted double spends.  (see BIP 35) 

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BitmoreCoin
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March 15, 2015, 05:02:52 PM
 #22

If you and the company selling you the goods both have coinbase account, your transaction is also real time. Is it the same as 21?
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March 15, 2015, 05:28:13 PM
 #23

Business Model of new company 21 Inc predicted by Satoshi?

Plausible speculation:
New company 21 Inc to offer realtime payment confirmations for bitcoin:
"More likely, in my opinion, is that they want to become/create ‘trusted nodes’ within the Bitcoin mining network permitting merchants & machines near-instant confidence that their transactions will be 100% confirmed. "
Source: http://alistairmilne.com/2015/03/14/what-is-21-inc-developing/

Satoshi:
"I believe it'll be possible for a payment processing company to provide as a service the rapid distribution of transactions with good-enough checking in something like 10 seconds or less."
Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819

This is the most interesting Satoshi thread in two years. It does appear that he supports the trusted node concept as presented by the 21 group. Centralization wouldn't be necessary if the company simply intends to act as an insurance company against theft guaranteeing to pay their connected merchants for zero confirm transactions. They would need to comply with worldwide updates or risk being caught on the wrong side of a fork. They could also decide to fork Bitcoin into a private network, if necessary, at any point in time. Neither of these options would centralize the network. As for providing near-instant (0 confirmation) transactions that are guaranteed to be valid. I'm not sure that's possible as a trusted node component of the current larger network. It would be useful for avoiding cancer nodes or a Sybil attack but not classic double spend attacks.

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March 15, 2015, 05:57:45 PM
 #24

Business Model of new company 21 Inc predicted by Satoshi?

Plausible speculation:
New company 21 Inc to offer realtime payment confirmations for bitcoin:
"More likely, in my opinion, is that they want to become/create ‘trusted nodes’ within the Bitcoin mining network permitting merchants & machines near-instant confidence that their transactions will be 100% confirmed. "
Source: http://alistairmilne.com/2015/03/14/what-is-21-inc-developing/

Satoshi:
"I believe it'll be possible for a payment processing company to provide as a service the rapid distribution of transactions with good-enough checking in something like 10 seconds or less."
Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819

"Trust" equals to "failure" in Bitcoin world. If Satoshi seriously considered adding trust to Bitcoin then something wrong with this guy.

Not as long as it's optional whether you want to use 'pure' Bitcoin or 3rd party processing service.
This is correct. The core nugget of bitcoin remains, anything you build on top of that core does not compromise the blockchain.

Remember Aaron Swartz, a 26 year old computer scientist who died defending the free flow of information.
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March 16, 2015, 03:46:47 AM
 #25

Just to double check / confirm:
Yes, Satoshi seems to think fast confirmation can be done WITHOUT changing the core Bitcoin protocol.
See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819

Relying on Satoshi's opinion would be a mistake. He already has a track record of making big ones (unsustainability of mining without subsidies, selfish mining, centralization of mining). It's better to use your own brain if you know how, of course.


LOLOLOL. Trust me, you have no clue about Satoshi or his motives. So please don't make stuff up about him. You're using his creation, that would automatically make you a fool if you're calling him a fool. That's just circular logic.
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March 16, 2015, 08:05:50 AM
 #26

LOLOLOL. Trust me, you have no clue about Satoshi or his motives. So please don't make stuff up about him. You're using his creation, that would automatically make you a fool if you're calling him a fool. That's just circular logic.

Circular logic? There is only circular fallacy in your post.
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March 16, 2015, 11:32:35 AM
 #27

I think Satoshi just got a lot of the basic ideas and implications right, even at the beginning and the following 2 years or so - I mean he invented it. The companies that come along now are merely obvious incarnations of various ideas.

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March 16, 2015, 11:39:22 AM
 #28

There already are solutions that don't rely on centrally trusted nodes for instant confirmations besides sidechains:

http://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper-DRAFT-0.5.pdf
http://lightning.network/lightning-network.pdf
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=970822.0

There is no reason both cannot exist as well.

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