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Author Topic: Starfish Personal Credit Ratings  (Read 4732 times)
PatrickHarnett (OP)
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August 10, 2012, 01:36:24 AM
 #1

Starfish is offering a service for borrowers and lenders based around a personal credit rating.  For borrowers, the cost to obtain a rating is 5BTC.  For lenders, the cost is zero.

To obtain a rating I'll look into the usual stuff I do when assessing a loan.  This will include asking for personal information, and before the anonymity brigade get all up in arms, this is about money so get over it (otherwise it may as well be a donation).



Over the past year I have had the pleasure to deal with a lot of very good people in the lending section (the majority), and the displeasure of dealing with some scumbags (the minority).  A little while I ago I introduced a rating system for deposit takers to help identify some of the risk/return trade-offs and that is still a work in progress.

I have also been approached (and I also check with) other lenders when asked for a loan.  I have also been asked by some people about an individual "credit rating" system and I've tossed around various ideas for a few weeks.  The piece that I was missing was related to the dual questions of:

Borrower: "why should I get a Starfish rating?" and
Lender: "why should I trust a Starfish rating?"

My answer to that is to back the ratings with cash. 
If I rate someone and they default on a loan, I offer to take over the loan at the percentages given in the table below.  The offer is only good for one-time per rated person, and excludes interest.  That is a sensible thing to do to prevent various games being played.  Also, loans need to be reasonably well documented, because successful loans can be used by borrowers to improve their Starfish rating, and if a lender wishes to cash-in the guarantee, they need to have documentation as well.

1 StarfishBad Riskup to 10BTC paying 50% for first claim
2 Starfish - up to 25BTC paying 60% for first claim
3 Starfish - up to 100BTC paying 70% for first claim
4 Starfish - up to 250BTC paying 80% for first claim
5 StarfishTrustedup to 1000BTC paying 90% for first claim

some questions you might be asking
What if someone defaults?
Obviously a defaulted loan gets a special score of zero.

Why should I pay 5BTC to you?  5BTC is a lot!
You don't have to pay.  5BTC helps sort out those serious about getting a loan from those opportunistic people wanting to scam lenders.  Also, it helps cover the insurance default costs, and the cost of running the scheme.

I got a lousy score - you did it wrong/I disagree with you/I want my money back
Tough - this is designed to weed out bad risk people.  If you're paying to get a rating and it comes out bad, you must have something to cause it, and I'll probably tell you why.  I'm backing my own money on this so if you do default, I carry the risk.

User XYZ got a X-Starfish rating - mine is lower, and I'm better than them.  Why/it's not fair
You'll probably never know and fairness is subjective.  The information held on the people being rated will not be disclosed other than their rating.

I've done X-thousand of bitcoin business with you or XYZ, why do I need a credit rating?
You probably don't.  I have customers I'll lend 1000 coins to on the basis of past performance and recommendations from people that have extended large loans as well.

Lender XYZ is demanding I get a credit rating, but I don't have 5BTC and it's unfair.
Look for another lender, one prepared to take on a different level of risk.  This isn't a compulsory scheme, just one that is available.

Lender XYZ makes terrible loans - won't that drive you out of business?
I'm covering my ass by doing due diligence on the borrower first.
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PatrickHarnett (OP)
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August 10, 2012, 01:36:47 AM
Last edit: August 27, 2012, 11:01:56 PM by PatrickHarnett
 #2

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August 10, 2012, 01:53:13 AM
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I like this idea behind this. How does one become a lender?
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August 10, 2012, 01:57:06 AM
 #4

Interesting.  IFL.

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August 10, 2012, 02:03:02 AM
 #5

Do you plan on rescoring borrowers after a certain period?

PatrickHarnett (OP)
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August 10, 2012, 02:13:12 AM
 #6

Do you plan on rescoring borrowers after a certain period?

Yes - as information comes to hand.  It's not a static exercise.  Plus, it would be in the borrower's interest to get an improved score over time as that should lower their borrowing cost.
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August 10, 2012, 02:20:17 AM
 #7

You should rate those ppl on who pays what thread

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August 10, 2012, 02:22:18 AM
 #8

Yes - as information comes to hand.  It's not a static exercise.  Plus, it would be in the borrower's interest to get an improved score over time as that should lower their borrowing cost.

I figured as much, but it was worth checking. Smiley
This shows promise and would be a valuable service to the community; I hope it goes well.

BadBitcoin (James Sutton)
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August 10, 2012, 02:35:30 AM
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+1, I vote a sticky for this, wheres maged?
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August 10, 2012, 02:38:50 AM
 #10

Why wouldn't I trust my personal data with a starfish?  Tongue

Just kidding, nice idea. I hope you don't get shakaru'd.
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August 10, 2012, 02:49:28 AM
 #11

The starfish already has my personal data on file somewhere, as I've done a loan through him in the past
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August 10, 2012, 02:57:10 AM
 #12

I would do it, not necessarily because I'm asking for "loans", but I am basically receiving "loans" each time someone buys my coins (since they are basically giving me the coins they will be receiving back in the mail).

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
PatrickHarnett (OP)
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August 10, 2012, 03:07:51 AM
 #13

The starfish already has my personal data on file somewhere, as I've done a loan through him in the past

Yes I do.  (and a successful loan it was too)

Why wouldn't I trust my personal data with a starfish?  Tongue

Just kidding, nice idea. I hope you don't get shakaru'd.

I'll add the info to my dirt collection (under the rock) - the object of the exercise, like the WPW thread is to keep data confidential.  For example, today I have done a preliminary rating for someone, very interesting, but it's not public.

As for being shakaru'd, I hope not, but I expect to suffer a couple of painful losses in the course of setting this up.

Scott J
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August 10, 2012, 12:13:56 PM
 #14

This is a great idea Cool

I would love to get myself rated, though have little need to at the moment so spending 5 BTC would be frivolous.

This will undoubtedly take some time to set up and is not without risk, so thanks Patrick.
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August 10, 2012, 03:55:52 PM
 #15

A copy of your real credit score... free and more valuable to a potential lender if you are actually a good credit risk.
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August 10, 2012, 04:02:02 PM
 #16

A copy of your real credit score... free and more valuable to a potential lender if you are actually a good credit risk.
While you might be right, there's a certain attraction to us being self regulating.
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August 10, 2012, 04:21:59 PM
 #17

While you might be right, there's a certain attraction to us being self regulating.

Fkn wrd.  Kind like Luxembourg.

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PatrickHarnett (OP)
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August 10, 2012, 09:31:38 PM
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A copy of your real credit score... free and more valuable to a potential lender if you are actually a good credit risk.
While you might be right, there's a certain attraction to us being self regulating.

I have no particular use for a credit score - I assume you're talking something USA based.  That doesn't help in the framework that is essentially non-recourse loans.

Also, people that have established borrowing reputations are unlikely to need to obtain a score unless they are looking to do something different.  Using ScottJ as an example, our arrangement is working fine and I wouldn't expect him to need to spend 5 coins to get a rating.  If he went to Kluge for a loan, he'd cite me as a reference.
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August 10, 2012, 10:37:28 PM
 #19

I have no particular use for a credit score - I assume you're talking something USA based.  That doesn't help in the framework that is essentially non-recourse loans.

If a personal credit score isn't considered, potential customers might conclude they have no particular use for the rating service you are offering.  There is a strong correlation between one's credit score and their ability and willingness to repay loans.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
PatrickHarnett (OP)
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August 11, 2012, 12:21:51 AM
 #20

I have no particular use for a credit score - I assume you're talking something USA based.  That doesn't help in the framework that is essentially non-recourse loans.

If a personal credit score isn't considered, potential customers might conclude they have no particular use for the rating service you are offering.  There is a strong correlation between one's credit score and their ability and willingness to repay loans.

Thanks for the comment - it's useful to consider different points of view.

If someone was offering that as support for their credit worthiness, then that would probably help some people.  However, credit scores are not universal (for instance, I don't have one) and in a recourse/contractual sense, people are more likely to pay in real life when there are consequences versus bitcoin land where most scams go unpunished. 
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