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Author Topic: bitcoin as in-game currency  (Read 4035 times)
mizerydearia
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September 07, 2010, 10:53:06 AM
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<potoco> Is it possible to implement using Bitcoin as an in-game currency?
<zukaraka> yes.
<potoco> hmm
<zukaraka> the question is
<zukaraka> why would you
<zukaraka> potoco: oh
<zukaraka> and
<zukaraka> you'd have to be a collosal dick
<zukaraka> and put a btc cracking engine in the gam
<zukaraka> *game
<zukaraka> and have it give you all the btc
<potoco> hmm?
<shuknar> btc cracking engine?
<shuknar> what for?
<shuknar> that poker site works well and uses BTC as in-game currency
<shuknar> I'd love to see BTC inside OpenSim, someone was mentioning it
<potoco> I'd like to implement bitcoin as in-game currency for a project I'm working on.
<shuknar> do!
<shuknar> the more games use bitcoins the better for the currency
<shuknar> whether or not bitcoins will be suitable depends of course on the type of game... it's perfect for poker
<shuknar> but if you want NPCs give monetary rewards to players who complete quests... it might not work
<potoco> shuknar, "but if you want NPCs give monetary rewards to players who complete quests... it might not work" -- Could this be possible though?
<shuknar> potoco, yes... if the NPCs had their cache of bitcoins ;-)
<shuknar> e.g. you would generate BTCs for them or something
<shuknar> or give out very small rewards, like the bitcoin faucet
<shuknar> either way, it's an interesting problem :-)
<shuknar> I think in general, if you want to be able to control the in-game currency, then BTCs are a bad choice. If you want to allow for an open market however, then not necessarily so
<zukaraka> <shuknar> btc cracking engine?
<zukaraka> <shuknar> what for?
<zukaraka> <potoco> hmm?
<zukaraka> to produce btc for the in game economy, duh
<tritro> you don't really need it but...
<shuknar> zukaraka, you don't need to crack BTC for that, you just need to generate them
<tritro> you could have your entire game economy = 1 BTC
<zukaraka> shuknar: exactly, and heres the great part
<zukaraka> the more people that play your game
<zukaraka> the richer YOU get
<tritro> then you process your ingame transaction yourself
<shuknar> zukaraka, not necessarily, it all depends on the game
<potoco> tritro, How can entire game economy be 1BTC if transactions smaller than 0.01BTC are not possible as of yet without costing more than the transaction itself?
<shuknar> worst comes to worst, you can fork off bitcoins and create something similar but on different rules
<zukaraka> shuknar: well, Im assuming mmo conditions
<shuknar> e.g. give 1M BTCs to the game world and don't allow for generation
<zukaraka> it'd be interesting as fuck, though, to let people import BTC
<tritro> potoco: if you really want btc to process transactions you would need to implement zukaraka solution
<shuknar> zukaraka, it's kinda possible already, with a L$ <-> BTC exchange
<tritro> you may process transactions yourself with 0 fee
<shuknar> you'd need shitloads of CPU power though
<zukaraka> shuknar: yeah but he asked for BTC in game
<zukaraka> as opposed to merely transferring
<tritro> but really there is no good reason to use btc ingame
<tritro> better to separate those
<shuknar> well I'd create a thought experiment
<shuknar> say we made a WoW clone and hosted the servers ourselves
<shuknar> I never played WoW, but what would the problems with using BTC as in-game currency?
<tritro> hacking
<zukaraka> actually
<zukaraka> that'd be hilarious as fuck
<zukaraka> use BTC
<zukaraka> have everyone gen coins
<zukaraka> you get the coins
<tritro> legally it would be easier to defend with ingame credits than with btc
<zukaraka> they get paid, say, interest on their coins in the game bank
<murror> The fee is rediculous, there has to be some way of adjusting the fee to vary with the load on the network, if it is absolutely necessary at all
<zukaraka> and the BTC economy, as a whole, savagely rapes the ingame economy.
<zukaraka> murror: dobut it
<tritro> the fee is *enormous*
<zukaraka> you'd have to do trillions transactions a second to do anything to the network
<tritro> that is the same than having ipv6 but only be able to use 10 bits for your own usage
<murror> So then why is it there?
<tritro> ask satoshi
<shuknar> zukaraka, I don't understand your "you get the coins" statement
<zukaraka> shuknar: the clients ran on other people's computers run a btc cracker in the background
<shuknar> what? the fee on <0.01BTC transactions can be easily removed
<zukaraka> shuknar: the users dont get the contents of the cracker
<tritro> the only advantage i see using btc ingame is that you don't have to write some code Smiley
<zukaraka> shuknar: the owner of the mmo does.
<shuknar> zukaraka, but that kills their CPU and they can't play the game
<zukaraka> shuknar: not at all.
<shuknar> tritro, the big advantage that I see is that it boosts BTC economy
<tritro> if you implement btc miner in your mmo you can process your own transactions without fee of course
<zukaraka> shuknar: because, see
<zukaraka> shuknar: people have more than one core.
<zukaraka> and operating systems, generally, allow thread priorities
<tritro> maybe we should try to write some simple mmo game with btc ingame
<tritro> just to see what happens
<shuknar> well, yes, you could do that
<shuknar> that'd just be ripping off peoples' computers
<zukaraka> shuknar: nope
<tritro> of course with some 5% fee for me Smiley
<zukaraka> it'd be paying for the infrascturue
<shuknar> you can do that with any game, it doesn't even need to have BTC as an in-game currency
<zukaraka> mmos dont come cheap.
<shuknar> if they agree to it and do it, why not
<tritro> but if you use BTC as ingame it will raise value of BTC economy
<tritro> ie games will know thay their currency is usable elsewhere
<tritro> gamers
<zukaraka> well
<zukaraka> the fun part is
<tritro> and everything is virtually 'free'
<zukaraka> you could rebase btc
<shuknar> well these are two unrelated subjects really
<zukaraka> if you only have 1000btc in the economy
<zukaraka> that could be like
<zukaraka> 1000 million game coins
<shuknar> you can just let the players generate BTC themselves and charge a BTC fee for playing the game separately
<tritro> even 1 BTC could be enough zukaraka
<zukaraka> tritro: well no
<zukaraka> remember, its limited to 8
<shuknar> yes, you can further fractionize BTC in your game
<tritro> you could use nanoBTC as your unit ingame
<zukaraka> so if you have btc
<zukaraka> and you're limited to 8
<zukaraka> you can only do 100 million in the whole economy
<tritro> we are not limited to '8'
<zukaraka> tritro: yes you are
<shuknar> no, you're not limited to 8
* tritro looks at the code exactly
<zukaraka> the clients are limited to 8 places.
<shuknar> you can make 0.00000001 BTC be 1000 in-game coins
<zukaraka> they visibly show only two
<zukaraka> shuknar: except you need to be able to have sub-gil transactions
<zukaraka> ie, gil should bottom out at 2 places.
<zukaraka> ergo
<tritro> static const int64 COIN = 100000000;
<zukaraka> we have _6_ places.
<zukaraka> so 1 btc == 1 million gil
<zukaraka> which, dont get me wrong
<zukaraka> thats not horrible
<shuknar> what's gil?
<zukaraka> shuknar: game coins.,
<tritro> i don't find that much Sad
<potoco> (Japanese ?? giru) is the name of the fictional currency used in every game in the Final Fantasy series, although English translations have occasionally replaced it with "GP" (short for "gold piece(s)") or simply "G". "Gil" is both the singular and plural term for the currency. ...
<shuknar> it depends how you implement the transactions. if your game processes all the transactions itself, you just buy in for 0.0000001 BTC and get 1000 gil, you then do in-game transactions with gils, and withdraw your BTC if you earn > 1000 gil
<zukaraka> potoco: thank you.
<zukaraka> shuknar: no no no
<zukaraka> gil is just a mockup of btc
<zukaraka> shuknar: I mean
<zukaraka> sure
<zukaraka> you COULD just run your own transaction network
<zukaraka> which is actually possible since the users dont own btc
<zukaraka> they just own gil
<zukaraka> the actual btc (which is the "gold in fort knox" of the game economy) is owned by the mmo owner
<tritro> paytxfee option exists btw
<zukaraka> so sur,e that could work.
<zukaraka> but
<zukaraka> I have like 450 btc.
<zukaraka> that'd be 450 million gil.
<potoco> zukaraka, shuknar tritro murror: May I post transcript of this discussion to forum? ^_^
<shuknar> potoco, I'd be thankful if you removed the timestamps
<zukaraka> potoco: fix my typos first.
<tritro> replace my nick Smiley
<shuknar> or replace my nick, yeah, that'd be cool too
<potoco> zukaraka, Blah...too much work ^_^
<murror> potoco: That's cool
<shuknar> anyway the most interesting way would be to make actual players exchange bitcoins between them
<potoco> I'll just replace names then
<shuknar> are linden dollars divisible?
<zukaraka> shuknar: no, because then it invites the IRS to come look at both BTC and the mmo
<zukaraka> allowing a one way in is fine though
<zukaraka> ie
<zukaraka> you pay the mmo in btc, you get gil, but you cant gil->btc
<zukaraka> which would be fucking hilarious when you get really rich douchebags running around being douchebags.
<potoco> I would like to implement gil<->btc
<zukaraka> potoco: dont
<zukaraka> otherwise it just leads to very direct gold farming
<shuknar> not true
<shuknar> take SL with L$<->BTC exchange
<zukaraka> yes, and I dont trust that L$ shit
<potoco> zukaraka, In such cases, players could then sell ingame currency themselves.  So why provide the barrier in the first place?
<shuknar> I don't trust any currency like that
<zukaraka> potoco: so the IRS doesnt start snooping in my shit.
<zukaraka> in other countries, they're even trying to tax virtual goods
<zukaraka> the aformentioned virtual goods are owned by the owner of the game, not the user; yet the user is still being taxed
<shuknar> the goods don't even exist
<zukaraka> so having limited inroads for exploration by governments is very much worth it
<shuknar> taxing is funny
<zukaraka> shuknar: yup.
<zukaraka> and its absurd
<zukaraka> Im surprised mmo companies havent sued the governments trying it
<shuknar> to work around taxes, you'd have to have a totally distributed and at least semi-anonymous game engine
<zukaraka> since its a massive legal liability
<zukaraka> shuknar: nope.
<zukaraka> like WoW will never be taxed
<zukaraka> you cant buy gold, and you cant sell gold for usd.
<zukaraka> and gold farming is massively illegal under WoW's rules.
<potoco> You can, but not through official channels
<zukaraka> but having _any_ sort of inroad for external currency, even btc, attracts unwanted interest.
<zukaraka> so, I'd only ever let btc->gil
<zukaraka> never gil->btc
<shuknar> zukaraka, you'll have users doing that anyway
<shuknar> some game, don't remember the title, allowed only 'balanced' trades for that reason
<zukaraka> shuknar: no I wont.
<zukaraka> gil wont be able to be transferred.
<shuknar> which is ridiculous, the whole point of the excercise is to bind the in-game economy with the real world economy
<zukaraka> thats not what I mean
<zukaraka> they can only interact WITH the economy
<zukaraka> they are forced to.
<zukaraka> ie, they can buy from in game stores BUT players arent allowed to run the in game stores
<shuknar> then it makes you the central owner of the whole thing and I don't want to play your game
<zukaraka> shuknar: too bad. most games are ran that way.
<zukaraka> and I own your shit anyhow
<shuknar> there are enough games that do that already
<zukaraka> even if you own it, I own it.
<shuknar> second life is a nice exception
<zukaraka> even the most free and open sort of game, that allows all sorts of shit
<zukaraka> anything in the game, I own.
<zukaraka> its in the EULA.
<shuknar> error: undefined identifier: own
<zukaraka> so if I decide to, one day, nuke the whole fucking thing and run away with the money
<zukaraka> I'm legally allowed to.
<shuknar> zukaraka, I don't want such a game
<shuknar> that's boring ;-)
<shuknar> I haven't looked at OpenSim yet
<zukaraka> thats every mmo ever with an economy.
<shuknar> but it looks interesting
<zukaraka> businesses _cannot_ be held liable for things that _dont exist_
<zukaraka> _period_
<shuknar> yes
<shuknar> that's why these games are boring
<zukaraka> yes, being not sued is boring. I like that sort of boring.
<shuknar> make a distributed, p2p, pseudonymous MMO: THAT's interesting
<zukaraka> its extremely chaotic
<zukaraka> and the IRS wouldnt care if its anonymous
<zukaraka> they'd still track down the guy who created it and tax him
<shuknar> tax him for what?
<shuknar> they can track down Satoshi this way and tax him for creating BTC
<zukaraka> essentially, a very large random number.
<zukaraka> shuknar: yup. they can.
<shuknar> it'd be hilarious to watch
<shuknar> "we want to tax you for your bytes!" "why don't you tax them for their bytes?" "ok, we'll tax them for their bytes too" "HEY EVERYONE! PAY \inf TAXES!"
<shuknar> delegalize internet!
<shuknar> then let's tax everyone who uses an abacus
<shuknar> for every movement of a stone
<potoco> "so if I decide to, one day, nuke the whole fucking thing and run away with the money" -- Therefore, if btc<->gil, then the end user has no risk for any loss and can use that as a reason to feel more comfortable with accepting playing the game and not to be concerned about wasting their time due to addictive gameplay that could have otherwise been pursued for more productive activities.
<shuknar> they either have to come up with a clever way to GTFO with their taxes, or the whole thing will collapse
<zukaraka> shuknar: my god, that is an irs agent's wet dream
<shuknar> zukaraka, you can see that won't work though, right?
<zukaraka> dude, the way the IRS already operates doesnt work
<zukaraka> that wont stop them
<zukaraka> rule #41234: NEVER hand the crazed gunman more ammo.
<zukaraka> potoco: anyhow, I dont want to stop people from doing it
<zukaraka> I just want them to protect themselves with common sense.
<zukaraka> I would be very interested in a game that used btc to back gil
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mizerydearia
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September 07, 2010, 12:33:21 PM
 #2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropia_Universe
USD-backed mmmorpg
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September 07, 2010, 12:57:10 PM
 #3

  There's a solution for this dilemma.  Lips sealed

 
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September 07, 2010, 01:52:41 PM
 #4

There's a solution for this dilemma.  Lips sealed
What is the solution?
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September 08, 2010, 01:14:37 AM
 #5

There's a solution for this dilemma.  Lips sealed
What is the solution?

Well you cant really use btc as a virtual currency because it is a cash equivalent. You can sell tokens for btc though. As long as you cant cash the tokens out for any cash equivalents immediately you wont face any repercussions. Once you have the tokens you can  use them like any other virtual currency. This is the same reason you cant just use cash and claim it is a virtual currency. Tokens that you can earn however could be cashed out once your users got to an agreed amount.

Bitcoin needs its own virtual currency fork to be used as an in game system and not break the terms of service of zynga,super rewards and other virtual currency products.

If btc had been setup as virtual currency from the beginning it would be different,so now it has to be done differently.
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September 11, 2010, 03:07:01 AM
 #6

>Bitcoin needs its own virtual currency fork to be used as an in game system
Something like that? Wink

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September 11, 2010, 04:26:48 AM
 #7

>Bitcoin needs its own virtual currency fork to be used as an in game system
Something like that? Wink

Yeah maybe not on the test network lol.
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September 19, 2010, 03:57:22 AM
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Well you cant really use btc as a virtual currency because it is a cash equivalent. You can sell tokens for btc though. As long as you cant cash the tokens out for any cash equivalents immediately you wont face any repercussions. Once you have the tokens you can  use them like any other virtual currency. This is the same reason you cant just use cash and claim it is a virtual currency. Tokens that you can earn however could be cashed out once your users got to an agreed amount.

Bitcoin needs its own virtual currency fork to be used as an in game system and not break the terms of service of zynga,super rewards and other virtual currency products.

If btc had been setup as virtual currency from the beginning it would be different,so now it has to be done differently.

What laws and rules are applicable here? When you say "As long as you cant cash the tokens out for any cash equivalents immediately you wont face any repercussions." what exactly do you mean? How does it work in the context of online poker, or the bitcoin casino? You're playing games with BTC directly, and can win BTC. You could then exchange BTC for USD. Legally you'd need to file a W-2G, correct? As far as I see it, as long as you do not engage in things like interest bearing accounts, engage in fiscal policy like the FED ( money out of thin air ) or provide a method to directly exchange BTC for USD ( that is up to the players to handle ), then there's nothing a government can do, correct?

For instance, say you had a virtual market game, where you bought and sold virtual commodities with BTC. There is no money being created by the game itself, so where is the issue? It is up to the traders themselves to report that income and pay applicable tax, if and when they exchange their earned BTC for a government issued currency. Obviously any profit made by the operators of such a game would need to declare and pay on that, right?

As far as I understand, the IRC discussion revolved around RPG style games where gil is created out of nothing and earned through things like battles and quests and such. In that instance, the concerns are founded - but what about games where money is not created at all - only virtual items that are traded with exchangable monies?

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September 19, 2010, 05:09:01 AM
 #9

Well you cant really use btc as a virtual currency because it is a cash equivalent. You can sell tokens for btc though. As long as you cant cash the tokens out for any cash equivalents immediately you wont face any repercussions. Once you have the tokens you can  use them like any other virtual currency. This is the same reason you cant just use cash and claim it is a virtual currency. Tokens that you can earn however could be cashed out once your users got to an agreed amount.

Bitcoin needs its own virtual currency fork to be used as an in game system and not break the terms of service of zynga,super rewards and other virtual currency products.

If btc had been setup as virtual currency from the beginning it would be different,so now it has to be done differently.

What laws and rules are applicable here? When you say "As long as you cant cash the tokens out for any cash equivalents immediately you wont face any repercussions." what exactly do you mean? How does it work in the context of online poker, or the bitcoin casino? You're playing games with BTC directly, and can win BTC. You could then exchange BTC for USD. Legally you'd need to file a W-2G, correct? As far as I see it, as long as you do not engage in things like interest bearing accounts, engage in fiscal policy like the FED ( money out of thin air ) or provide a method to directly exchange BTC for USD ( that is up to the players to handle ), then there's nothing a government can do, correct?

For instance, say you had a virtual market game, where you bought and sold virtual commodities with BTC. There is no money being created by the game itself, so where is the issue? It is up to the traders themselves to report that income and pay applicable tax, if and when they exchange their earned BTC for a government issued currency. Obviously any profit made by the operators of such a game would need to declare and pay on that, right?

As far as I understand, the IRC discussion revolved around RPG style games where gil is created out of nothing and earned through things like battles and quests and such. In that instance, the concerns are founded - but what about games where money is not created at all - only virtual items that are traded with exchangable monies?


      All I can say is read the terms of service when you sign up to things. I cant see facebook accepting a rival to their facebook dollars can you? A virtual currency cant be used in the physical world to purchase goods and services (tangible items). That means its not a virtual currency anymore. Once you allow cashing out of virtual dollars for real dollars you will fall foul of money laundering and racketeering laws,if not get your account suspended. Once your cash goes virtual it is fine as long as it stays that way. Virtual currency is usually platform specific .

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September 19, 2010, 05:16:55 PM
 #10

There's a solution for this dilemma.  Lips sealed
What is the solution?

Well you cant really use btc as a virtual currency because it is a cash equivalent. You can sell tokens for btc though. As long as you cant cash the tokens out for any cash equivalents immediately you wont face any repercussions. Once you have the tokens you can  use them like any other virtual currency. This is the same reason you cant just use cash and claim it is a virtual currency. Tokens that you can earn however could be cashed out once your users got to an agreed amount.

Bitcoin needs its own virtual currency fork to be used as an in game system and not break the terms of service of zynga,super rewards and other virtual currency products.

If btc had been setup as virtual currency from the beginning it would be different,so now it has to be done differently.

So what is the status of bitcoin funds on MtGox? Would it matter if he called your balance GOXies? What if he said you can't cash out unless you have 1 MTGOXie?

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September 20, 2010, 03:29:52 AM
 #11

There's a solution for this dilemma.  Lips sealed
What is the solution?

Well you cant really use btc as a virtual currency because it is a cash equivalent. You can sell tokens for btc though. As long as you cant cash the tokens out for any cash equivalents immediately you wont face any repercussions. Once you have the tokens you can  use them like any other virtual currency. This is the same reason you cant just use cash and claim it is a virtual currency. Tokens that you can earn however could be cashed out once your users got to an agreed amount.

Bitcoin needs its own virtual currency fork to be used as an in game system and not break the terms of service of zynga,super rewards and other virtual currency products.

If btc had been setup as virtual currency from the beginning it would be different,so now it has to be done differently.

So what is the status of bitcoin funds on MtGox? Would it matter if he called your balance GOXies? What if he said you can't cash out unless you have 1 MTGOXie?

While you can connect to the bitcoin network they are currency. If Mt Gox created his own different token system that stopped you from cashing out immediately it would be a virtual currency. The other difference is that Mt Gox would then own this virtual currency,not the person who deposited it. When you buy into a virtual currency it becomes the property of the company. You dont exchange bitcoins for proprietary coins that Mt Gox owns .

One way around this would be to create a centrally managed version of bitcoin. The company would own the server and customers would manage it with a web based client. In effect a bitcoin with only one node and the company would then be the only one that can generate coins and set the value of it. Virtual currencies are proprietary so to solve this we need a version of bitcoin that can be owned by a company and is separate from the main bitcoin network. There might even be benefits to the bitcoin community "certifying" and supporting this version ie companies would have to pay support/license fees to fork the project but still access the main bitcoin community.

The reason virtual currency has to be a silo is that companies want to control their own virtual dollars. Twitter wouldn't accept the same virtual money used on Facebook for instance. For the same reason you also cant use Second Life Linden dollars on Facebook. If proprietary versions of bitcoin can be forked from the main network and the bitcoin community offered to support it in exchange for those companies letting bitcoin be one of the accepted payment methods we would be onto something. Certifying forked projects is something that only our community can take advantage of in such a manner. These companies in effect would be hiring the entire bitcoin swarm which could be done by them paying transaction fees into the network.  We should accept it and profit from it!

What I am saying is that there would be a "facebook bitcoin" a "second life bitcoin" etc that dont connect to other forks of bitcoin but are all certified and supported by us for the benefit of the main network. Im guessing a "facebook bitcoin" with 400 million users would eclipse all the others so you definitely wouldn't want its block chain connecting to any other network. This also makes it easier for developers to port their applications to other networks because it would be standardised across platforms.
Please dont take what I am saying as negative because these are solutions that can get us what we want.  Smiley
 

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September 20, 2010, 03:47:20 AM
 #12

If someone will fork Bitcoin - so I hope that it will be with a different
address port and a different address version, like a test network. Wink

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September 20, 2010, 03:54:29 AM
 #13

If someone will fork Bitcoin - so I hope that it will be with a different
address port and a different address version, like a test network. Wink

Yes exactly. But an officially supported fork so that companies can pay the bitcoin network in transaction fees and allowing bitcoin as an accepted payment method in exchange for certification and ongoing support.After all who knows the most about bitcoin and could make sure nothing funky was going on ?
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September 20, 2010, 04:15:21 AM
 #14

One of us is really confused. You cannot pay transactions fees on one fork with coins from another afaik. And it would be really silly to spend cpu time on a fork that only you can create coins on anyhow, I mean, just create some book entries like everyone else for internal credit or points or whatever. All features of bitcoin are gone if you have your own private fork.

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Anonymous
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September 20, 2010, 04:50:28 AM
 #15

One of us is really confused. You cannot pay transactions fees on one fork with coins from another afaik. And it would be really silly to spend cpu time on a fork that only you can create coins on anyhow, I mean, just create some book entries like everyone else for internal credit or points or whatever. All features of bitcoin are gone if you have your own private fork.

I didnt say anything about using their coins to pay fees. That doesnt make any sense lol. They would pay certification and support fees most likely by purchasing bitcoins like everyone else does.

You are missing the point that virtual currencies are proprietary therefore a bitcoin implementation within a private company would also need to be proprietary. If it is ever used on facebook dont expect it to be used anywhere else by any competitor.


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September 20, 2010, 05:05:26 AM
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Quote from: FreeMoney
You cannot pay transactions fees on one fork with coins from another afaik.

You can build a separate currency system on top of the Bitcoin block chain, paying fees in bitcoins while transacting in another currency. This is a good idea for niche currency systems, since running their own chains would put them at risk of being attacked by people with a lot of CPU power.

Transactions made in an "offshoot" currency couldn't be checked for double-spending by the Bitcoin network before being inserted into a block. This doesn't affect security if the offshoot clients are designed correctly (AFAIK), but it would make it impossible for offshoot clients to use an abbreviated block chain, which might be a problem once it takes weeks/months to download the full chain.

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September 20, 2010, 06:03:46 PM
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Quote
While you can connect to the bitcoin network they are currency. If Mt Gox created his own different token system that stopped you from cashing out immediately it would be a virtual currency. The other difference is that Mt Gox would then own this virtual currency,not the person who deposited it. When you buy into a virtual currency it becomes the property of the company.

According to what, though? According to the Mt Gox TOS? What if the TOS said the explicit opposite? Is there case law already regarding this?

Is not the bitcoin casino, in effect, using bitcoin as in-game currency already? If not, what's the differentiating factor?

Quote
You are missing the point that virtual currencies are proprietary therefore a bitcoin implementation within a private company would also need to be proprietary. If it is ever used on facebook dont expect it to be used anywhere else by any competitor.

I don't follow the logic here. It doesn't absolutely have to be the case, just because it is usually the case. Just because some company says so in their TOS doesn't make it true in every instance, and it doesn't make it true that every company would desire to create their own proprietary virtual currency.

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September 22, 2010, 01:53:52 AM
 #18

Quote
While you can connect to the bitcoin network they are currency. If Mt Gox created his own different token system that stopped you from cashing out immediately it would be a virtual currency. The other difference is that Mt Gox would then own this virtual currency,not the person who deposited it. When you buy into a virtual currency it becomes the property of the company.

According to what, though? According to the Mt Gox TOS? What if the TOS said the explicit opposite? Is there case law already regarding this?

Is not the bitcoin casino, in effect, using bitcoin as in-game currency already? If not, what's the differentiating factor?

Quote
You are missing the point that virtual currencies are proprietary therefore a bitcoin implementation within a private company would also need to be proprietary. If it is ever used on facebook dont expect it to be used anywhere else by any competitor.

I don't follow the logic here. It doesn't absolutely have to be the case, just because it is usually the case. Just because some company says so in their TOS doesn't make it true in every instance, and it doesn't make it true that every company would desire to create their own proprietary virtual currency.

So are you saying if you sign a voluntary contract ie a TOS you can break it because you think it should say something else? If you use someones property you need to respect the rules they have. Unless you dont believe in property rights.....

I suggest you find companies that support what you are trying to achieve rather than barging into breaking contracts you sign. I believe in persuasion rather than conflict which is going to come up sooner or later if you ignore what their TOS says. Has anyone even contacted these companies to see if they would support using bitcoin or are you intent on just "hoping" they dont notice ? If they refuse to do so what are you going to do about it?


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September 22, 2010, 04:46:20 PM
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Quote
While you can connect to the bitcoin network they are currency. If Mt Gox created his own different token system that stopped you from cashing out immediately it would be a virtual currency. The other difference is that Mt Gox would then own this virtual currency,not the person who deposited it. When you buy into a virtual currency it becomes the property of the company.

According to what, though? According to the Mt Gox TOS? What if the TOS said the explicit opposite? Is there case law already regarding this?

Is not the bitcoin casino, in effect, using bitcoin as in-game currency already? If not, what's the differentiating factor?

Quote
You are missing the point that virtual currencies are proprietary therefore a bitcoin implementation within a private company would also need to be proprietary. If it is ever used on facebook dont expect it to be used anywhere else by any competitor.

I don't follow the logic here. It doesn't absolutely have to be the case, just because it is usually the case. Just because some company says so in their TOS doesn't make it true in every instance, and it doesn't make it true that every company would desire to create their own proprietary virtual currency.

So are you saying if you sign a voluntary contract ie a TOS you can break it because you think it should say something else? If you use someones property you need to respect the rules they have. Unless you dont believe in property rights.....

I suggest you find companies that support what you are trying to achieve rather than barging into breaking contracts you sign. I believe in persuasion rather than conflict which is going to come up sooner or later if you ignore what their TOS says. Has anyone even contacted these companies to see if they would support using bitcoin or are you intent on just "hoping" they dont notice ? If they refuse to do so what are you going to do about it?




Whoa whoa whoa, wtf are you talking about? Nobody's talking about breaking contracts here, dude, chill out. I'm talking about someone creating their OWN game on their OWN servers, with their OWN TOS - NOT someone creating a game on Facebook. Facebook, or any other company's TOS, means exactly dick to me. Eff Facebook. I suggest you reread my questions, slowly and carefully, before you start throwing "contract breaker!" around, or suggesting that I don't respect property rights - which frankly is laughable. You answered my first, very direct, questions with a simple "Look at Facebook's TOS" which didn't answer anything, nor did it have any applicability to my questions. You're still stuck on this - maybe you think that all games anyone could ever want to create would be FB games. Whatever your misunderstanding there is, you need to seriously examine your assumptions, and step down off of your soapbox.

Regarding your very fallacious statements: any solid answers to my questions?

Here, I'll rephrase the main one so you couldn't possibly misconstrue:

If I form a company, create my own game, write my own TOS that is carefully worded, and allow people to deposit, use, and withdraw bitcoins (just like MtGox, the Casino, etc...) what is LEGALLY stopping me from doing that? As far as I can tell - nothing. That's what I'm asking. Are there specific statutes or case law in effect? The way some other company, whomever they may be, does it is completely moot to me. The technical aspects of doing this are beyond the scope of my question. The IRC conversation focused on one very narrow segment of gaming and I do not believe the issues raised within apply to all games or ideas.

Second, very simple, very direct question:
Is the bitcoin casino (and MtGox in a way) not, in effect, using bitcoin as an in-game currency. If not, why?

The other questions I raised were merely me questioning your faulty logic, statements, and assumptions. All Virtual Currencies are Proprietary is a fallacy as is everything based on that assumption that follows. All TOS Contracts Limit Ownership is as well; just because it is so for every example you can find does not make it absolutely true.

If you can't answer my questions, or don't understand them, maybe you shouldn't respond like you're some authority on the subject; especially not in an underhanded manner.

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September 23, 2010, 04:41:54 AM
 #20

There's a solution for this dilemma.  Lips sealed
What is the solution?

Well you cant really use btc as a virtual currency because it is a cash equivalent. You can sell tokens for btc though. As long as you cant cash the tokens out for any cash equivalents immediately you wont face any repercussions. Once you have the tokens you can  use them like any other virtual currency. This is the same reason you cant just use cash and claim it is a virtual currency. Tokens that you can earn however could be cashed out once your users got to an agreed amount.

Bitcoin needs its own virtual currency fork to be used as an in game system and not break the terms of service of zynga,super rewards and other virtual currency products.

If btc had been setup as virtual currency from the beginning it would be different,so now it has to be done differently.

Since when is bitcoin a cash equivalent?

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