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Author Topic: Alternatives to the new OzCoin 3% DGM Fee  (Read 4075 times)
zvs
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August 12, 2012, 01:02:27 AM
 #21

I am very sorry that you feel the services OZCOIN is not worth 3%. We all wish you luck in the future on finding a pool you will be happy with.
it isn't worth 3% because there are pools like eclipseMC and maxBTC that one can switch to, that don't have fees

what exactly does ozcoin have that makes it better than eclipsemc?   i'm honestly curious

and pls no comments about how it's down atm.   extended down time has happened... twice in the last two months?

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August 12, 2012, 01:12:35 AM
 #22

I am very sorry that you feel the services OZCOIN is not worth 3%. We all wish you luck in the future on finding a pool you will be happy with.
and pls no comments about how it's down atm.   extended down time has happened... twice in the last two months?
I know you don't want to hear this but...

Stability.

Since I joined OzCoin I haven't seen my miner directing any significant traffic at any of my backup pools. And this isn't because the servers haven't gone down. Rather, it's a mix of OzCoin's servers being in different locations (allowing for easy failover and no single point of failure) and the sysadmins being very proactive in their approach (pointing DNS entries at other servers when they go down, whether for maintenance or otherwise).

You can't discount the quality of service.
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August 12, 2012, 02:02:26 AM
 #23

I am very sorry that you feel the services OZCOIN is not worth 3%. We all wish you luck in the future on finding a pool you will be happy with.
and pls no comments about how it's down atm.   extended down time has happened... twice in the last two months?
I know you don't want to hear this but...

Stability.

Since I joined OzCoin I haven't seen my miner directing any significant traffic at any of my backup pools. And this isn't because the servers haven't gone down. Rather, it's a mix of OzCoin's servers being in different locations (allowing for easy failover and no single point of failure) and the sysadmins being very proactive in their approach (pointing DNS entries at other servers when they go down, whether for maintenance or otherwise).

You can't discount the quality of service.
i'll concede the point about diff locations

eclipsemc used to have some EU servers, but now they're all located in US (all through wholesale internet).  so when wholesale internet messes up (which I think was probably the case this time), it takes the whole operation down

but, you could just use eclipsemc and have maxbtc (or visa versa) as backup server.  i mined on maxbtc for about a month straight & it probably had about 12hrs of downtime in that period

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August 12, 2012, 02:16:48 AM
 #24


Graet, I mean no disrespect to what you have done for the coin community, and I apologize if anything was taken that way.  I still strongly disagree with the 3% increase, though it appears that I may be the only one to date Smiley
quite a few people disagree, some have been quite abusive some have just moved on.
one made a forum thread full of fud.
then started aplogising.

OH ROFL JUST LOOKED AT 1ST POST - CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY WHILE A WAS ASLEEP

I was going to write a big long post but honestly cbf

no-one is required to mine at Ozcoin - as always miners that would like to mine at Ozcoin are welcome.

Inaba is a good guy - go mine on EMC if you don't like fees or one of the many other 0fee pools Smiley

I made a business decision about Ozcoins future - If this is the only time in your life you have been dissapointed by a businesses decision you are either very lucky or very young.

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August 12, 2012, 02:33:11 AM
 #25

what exactly does ozcoin have that makes it better than eclipsemc?   i'm honestly curious

I've never mined with eclipse, but there are 2 huge factors of why Ozcoin rocks:

Stability - With multiple servers at physically different locations, it's hard to get to a point where I can't mine. My first 3 failover pools are Ozcoin backup servers, so it ensures I'm always mining. (of course, solo mining is failover #4  Wink)

Integrity - From what I've seen, Graet has been nothing but upstanding and honest with his miners, especially if any problems arise (down servers, payout not working, and the recent ddos). This to me makes it worth it.

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August 12, 2012, 04:02:17 AM
 #26

evanesce why you have shares in current round?
I thought you had left Cheesy
cheers

oh
I couldn't find you on this list
https://ozcoin.net/content/hall-fame-donations-bitcoin
maybe something is broken?

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August 12, 2012, 04:35:54 AM
 #27

evanesce why you have shares in current round?
I thought you had left Cheesy
cheers

oh
I couldn't find you on this list
https://ozcoin.net/content/hall-fame-donations-bitcoin
maybe something is broken?

You might need some, you can buy it with the 2.5% you've been saving

http://www.amazon.com/Harold-Imports-2-Ounce-Size-Cream/dp/B001732FVG
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August 12, 2012, 08:17:17 AM
 #28

evanesce why you have shares in current round?
I thought you had left Cheesy
cheers

oh
I couldn't find you on this list
https://ozcoin.net/content/hall-fame-donations-bitcoin
maybe something is broken?
I rolled back to oz momentarily when eclipse was down for those few hours but don't you worry I made sure you got your 3% in that round..  I'll set up my client to roll back to deepbit instead next time.

You know, for having such a wonderful reputation in the community you sure arent impressing me much on a personal level.

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organofcorti
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August 12, 2012, 09:22:27 AM
 #29

evanesce why you have shares in current round?
I thought you had left Cheesy
cheers

oh
I couldn't find you on this list
https://ozcoin.net/content/hall-fame-donations-bitcoin
maybe something is broken?
I rolled back to oz momentarily when eclipse was down for those few hours but don't you worry I made sure you got your 3% in that round..  I'll set up my client to roll back to deepbit instead next time.

You know, for having such a wonderful reputation in the community you sure arent impressing me much on a personal level.

Well, you do seem to think that he shouldn't be paid for his work, right? You're implying that his work on Ozcoin isn't worth being paid. You want to reduce your mining variance for free. Graet has put a huge amount of unpaid personal time into Ozcoin and you're saying it's not worth being paid for. I can see why he'd be pissed at you.

Try solo mining for a while and you'll see why many miners don't mind a small fee in exchange for variance reduction and charging a fee means that donators aren't subsiding miners like you. So you'll move to EMC? Great pool, and Inaba is an excellent pool op. But you moving there does bugger all to help him, and his fulltime miners will be subsidising you.

Put yourself in a pool operators shoes: if you had to spend a portion of every day running a pool, would you be happy working two jobs - one to feed your family and one for free? Would your wife and kids be happy never seeing you? Would you be confident you could handle any emergency any time?


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evanesce
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August 12, 2012, 09:29:30 AM
 #30

I agree with you wholeheartedly.  Knowing what I've learned over the past days or so of the importance of donations I would have definitely been donating more all along.  I'm starting off on the right foot with eclipse by donating from the get-go and I encourage any of you reading this to consider donating as well.

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August 12, 2012, 09:41:35 AM
 #31

I agree with you wholeheartedly.  Knowing what I've learned over the past days or so of the importance of donations I would have definitely been donating more all along.  I'm starting off on the right foot with eclipse by donating from the get-go and I encourage any of you reading this to consider donating as well.

OK, so can you see the point of a fee then?

As someone who donates, would you be happy to know there are a bunch of freeloaders relying on your donation keeping the pool going and still reaping the benefits? Many of these freeloaders would contribute nothing to the pool other than shares through proxies.

Or are we just haggling about the percentage the fee should be?

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evanesce
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August 12, 2012, 09:52:33 AM
 #32

I agree with you wholeheartedly.  Knowing what I've learned over the past days or so of the importance of donations I would have definitely been donating more all along.  I'm starting off on the right foot with eclipse by donating from the get-go and I encourage any of you reading this to consider donating as well.

OK, so can you see the point of a fee then?

As someone who donates, would you be happy to know there are a bunch of freeloaders relying on your donation keeping the pool going and still reaping the benefits? Many of these freeloaders would contribute nothing to the pool other than shares through proxies.

Or are we just haggling about the percentage the fee should be?
Regarding the freeloaders.. I was once among one of them, and I believe now that its likely the majority of them simply don't understand the importance of making voluntary contributions and the consequences should that not happen.

But yes, I do think going from 0% to 3% when it was clearly stated operating costs were 1.5% is a bit over the top in my opinion.  I would have preferred mandatory 1.5% to cover his costs and then open up the donations beyond that like he's doing now.  But its not my pool or decision to make I understand this Smiley

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August 12, 2012, 10:15:36 AM
 #33

But yes, I do think going from 0% to 3% when it was clearly stated operating costs were 1.5% is a bit over the top in my opinion.  I would have preferred mandatory 1.5% to cover his costs and then open up the donations beyond that like he's doing now.  But its not my pool or decision to make I understand this Smiley

OK, I think I see where you're coming from. But keep in mind "operating costs" don't include time. If you want someone available to manage a pool for at least 8 hours a day then you need to offer a salary on top of operating costs.

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August 12, 2012, 10:25:56 AM
 #34

But yes, I do think going from 0% to 3% when it was clearly stated operating costs were 1.5% is a bit over the top in my opinion.  I would have preferred mandatory 1.5% to cover his costs and then open up the donations beyond that like he's doing now.  But its not my pool or decision to make I understand this Smiley

OK, I think I see where you're coming from. But keep in mind "operating costs" don't include time. If you want someone available to manage a pool for at least 8 hours a day then you need to offer a salary on top of operating costs.
I see where you're coming from too.  Finally someone that understands me heh.. Decent wording to convey my thoughts into something others could clearly underatand and make sense of was never one of my stronger attributes heh. 

Regarding his "salary" however, being that he opened the pool as zero fee, I had just assumed that this was his hobby and his time was his contribution to his hobby.  He might consider stating to his clients that this is no longer the case and he's now running a strictly "for profit" business here.  Or has he already and I'm just unaware?

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August 12, 2012, 10:38:22 AM
 #35

But yes, I do think going from 0% to 3% when it was clearly stated operating costs were 1.5% is a bit over the top in my opinion.  I would have preferred mandatory 1.5% to cover his costs and then open up the donations beyond that like he's doing now.  But its not my pool or decision to make I understand this Smiley

OK, I think I see where you're coming from. But keep in mind "operating costs" don't include time. If you want someone available to manage a pool for at least 8 hours a day then you need to offer a salary on top of operating costs.
I see where you're coming from too.  Finally someone that understands me heh.. Decent wording to convey my thoughts into something others could clearly underatand and make sense of was never one of my stronger attributes heh. 

Regarding his "salary" however, being that he opened the pool as zero fee, I had just assumed that this was his hobby and his time was his contribution to his hobby.  He might consider stating to his clients that this is no longer the case and he's now running a strictly "for profit" business here.  Or has he already and I'm just unaware?

Read his most recent post on the ozcoin thread.  There's a lot of money involved in running ozcoin.  I doubt he's making much profit.  However, it is a business, as he pointed out on his post.

M

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August 12, 2012, 10:38:59 AM
 #36

p2pool seems to be an alright pool if you don't mind a bit more variance than you've had at ozcoin/emc(it's pplns not dgm). It can also be 0% fee if you want..
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August 12, 2012, 10:41:39 AM
 #37

But yes, I do think going from 0% to 3% when it was clearly stated operating costs were 1.5% is a bit over the top in my opinion.  I would have preferred mandatory 1.5% to cover his costs and then open up the donations beyond that like he's doing now.  But its not my pool or decision to make I understand this Smiley

OK, I think I see where you're coming from. But keep in mind "operating costs" don't include time. If you want someone available to manage a pool for at least 8 hours a day then you need to offer a salary on top of operating costs.
I see where you're coming from too.  Finally someone that understands me heh.. Decent wording to convey my thoughts into something others could clearly underatand and make sense of was never one of my stronger attributes heh. 

Regarding his "salary" however, being that he opened the pool as zero fee, I had just assumed that this was his hobby and his time was his contribution to his hobby.  He might consider stating to his clients that this is no longer the case and he's now running a strictly "for profit" business here.  Or has he already and I'm just unaware?

Situations change, and larger pools need more management. Arsbitcoin failed. MtRed has had more downtime as they've increased in hashrate.

It's clear that Graet was at a point where he'd have to end Ozcoin as we know it, or he'd need help from all miners to make it a full time proposition. I don't think any pool op maintains a pool as a hobby. And would you want a hobbyist as a pool op? Honestly, would you mine somewhere that could disappear with your unpaid shares tomorrow?

I think you'll find that many smaller pools that are donation only now will become fee only pools in future as they obtain more hashrate and workload for the pool op increases. They might also not want to add a fee, and I'm sure Graet didn't want to either.


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August 12, 2012, 10:46:09 AM
 #38

Fair enough response Smiley

Interestingly enough, I've actually watched one of the smaller pools http://btcmine.com/ go from fee based backwards to donation only.  That was my first pool getting into BTC, so it has some sentimental value to me Smiley

Oh and by the way, I love how they operate, check out this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4251.msg1064554#msg1064554

Quote
default donation is 2% and miner may disable donation or switch to another in 1-5% range.

Now... how come this didn't / wouldn't have worked for OzCoin (with the exception of making the default 3%)?  Did they just not consider it or think of this before going mandatory, or have they tried setting a default already and had it not work for them?  Huh

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August 12, 2012, 11:59:01 AM
 #39

Fair enough response Smiley

Interestingly enough, I've actually watched one of the smaller pools http://btcmine.com/ go from fee based backwards to donation only.  That was my first pool getting into BTC, so it has some sentimental value to me Smiley

Oh and by the way, I love how they operate, check out this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4251.msg1064554#msg1064554

Quote
default donation is 2% and miner may disable donation or switch to another in 1-5% range.

Now... how come this didn't / wouldn't have worked for OzCoin (with the exception of making the default 3%)?  Did they just not consider it or think of this before going mandatory, or have they tried setting a default already and had it not work for them?  Huh

That change may be an attempt by BTCMine to regain some of the hashrate they lost over the last 12 months. I think it's more like a last ditch effort to get new miners on board.

BTCMine used to be a significant proportion of the network hashrate but the 'c' value they use for their score method is too low so miners get too much variance. And the pool is still hoppable.


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August 12, 2012, 12:59:55 PM
 #40

Fair enough response Smiley

Interestingly enough, I've actually watched one of the smaller pools http://btcmine.com/ go from fee based backwards to donation only.  That was my first pool getting into BTC, so it has some sentimental value to me Smiley

Oh and by the way, I love how they operate, check out this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4251.msg1064554#msg1064554

Quote
default donation is 2% and miner may disable donation or switch to another in 1-5% range.

Now... how come this didn't / wouldn't have worked for OzCoin (with the exception of making the default 3%)?  Did they just not consider it or think of this before going mandatory, or have they tried setting a default already and had it not work for them?  Huh
in June last year Ozcoin opened as a 2%fee pool, within 2 weeks it was obvious that being among a swarm of new pools we would need to drop the fee to get anywhere. The longer term miners might remember some of those pools, only a couple remain.I have some theories on this. but its not today's subject.

when we opened DGM with yourbtc.com frontend there was a default 2% donation setting - we missed when setting up, we were quickly told by users we were trying to "trick " them into donating, so we removed it - just cant win either way by the look.

I have always encouraged and thanked donors, unfortunately even after that post the donations maxed at 0.6% still well under 1.5% (the difference for those months added up)
I don't make a big thing of it but I regularly donate to different BTC projects that I get value from - to me its just a respect thing. I guess my biggest mistake was hoping the majority of miners on the pool showed the same sort of respect to me. once again thanks to those that do Cheesy

when I made the post quoting 1.5% we had 1/2 as many servers and about 1/3 the hashrate, ASICs werent on the horizon etc etc etc, stuff changes fast in Bitcoinworld.  since I announced fees my costs have changed, AU host has informed me that my traffic costs for next month have gone up $250.

apart from that I have posted the same stuff over and over, no point repeating it again.

I know its no excuse,
but I announced fees,
got the flu,
got abusive emails,
got 4 hours sleep,
got ddossed
more abusive emails
found out the pool didnt cope with the ddos and wanted to pay out 4 x each on 9 blocks
had a stinking headache
got 4 hours sleep
tried to placate unpaid miners
did what I could to get problem resolved
tried to explain my reasoning for fees to miners
got 1/2 of the payout problem fixed
got 4 hours sleep
was awake when payout problem fixed to top up wallet so miners would get backpay asap
continued trying to explain to miners my reasoning for a fee
had 1/2 an interesting conversation with a guy in irc (unfortunately I was a bit busy with fixing my wife's business mobile to stop and pay full attention)
came to forum found FUD thread
had 5 hours sleep
woke up to find FUD thread tile and OP changed
still have the flu
In between I have helped my wife with her busy dog walking business, cared for our 2 children, fixed a mates PC, had one 4 card mining rig crash and not had time to troubleshoot, and more

so if I seem to have been a bit grumpy....
all I can do is apologise

Just one question, would you have been so angry if I had closed the pool and paid out miners, cloned the software and opened up the next day as a 3% fee pool?



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