In Gox we trust

[eMansipater]

First the, main reason this thread is in "Marketplace" is because of the gargantuan "$45,000 thread" in here.  But, it also fits here because it is about Mt. Gox and Mt. Gox is a key player in the Bitcoin marketplace.

Second, the purpose of this topic is to help out people who are trying to interpret what that giant thread actually means for Bitcoin, Mt. Gox, etc. without having to wade through it.  It is not a place for bickering over scams, calling people out, arguing about details--page 6289 of the other thread is for that.  It is just a simple place for people, in one short post per person, to describe their level of trust in Mt. Gox, and what their personal experience with the site and its owner has been.  Save the speculation and philosophical conflicts for elsewhere, please.  Let's keep this about just the day-to-day participation of Mt. Gox in the Bitcoin community.

Now, to help ensure the details of that other thread don't need to get rehashed too much in this one, here's a rough overview of what it contains:

On February 21, a user "Baron" (new account) posted that:

• his Mt. Gox account had been frozen with approximately 45,000 USD in it.
• Mt. Gox had questions over certain Bitcoins in his possession
• Baron had purchased these Bitcoins anonymously over IRC and was unable to remember any details such as channel, usernames, etc.
• the frozen money came from Liberty Reserve

Mt. Gox responded:

There is pretty strong evidence that this guy was involved in some theft of BTC. I'm trying to talk to him to make absolutely certain.

Baron continued posting extensively, saying he wanted to return the 9000 BTC in question, offering his own chronology, but then later altering his original IRC story, saying that although he had trusted Mt. Gox with 45,000 USD he would not provide Mt. Gox with his real name or an ID scan, saying that involving authorities and the law would be financially impractical but then claiming to have spoken with his lawyers less than 2 hours later.

TheKoziTwo demonstrated how Baron's account was linked to the BTC in question--a direct link with no middlemen.

Mt. Gox clarified:

Guys I really don't want to go into details about this until it is resolved. If baron is in fact a scammer the less he knows about what I know the better.
I'm still talking to baron and trying to get to the bottom of this.

BCEmporium: How can you say what you would do when you don't know what is really happening? If I allow him to trade and he is a scammer it is very easy to send the majority of his money to another account just by clearing out the order book and then trading with another account he makes.

And of course I have talked to the victim and am convinced his account was stolen from. I don't enjoy just blocking random people's accounts. I wouldn't do it unless there really was no other option.

Also I'm not holding his funds because I think he bought stolen BTC. I'm holding them because there is a chance he stole BTC.

Bimmerhead: I'm waiting for him. He isn't waiting for me. I've been trying to get him on the phone since this happened.

"Baron" continued posting more irately, threatening legal action and demanding access to the frozen account "to take screenshots", demanding information about Mt. Gox, claiming unable to speak on the phone due to muteness, etc.

Mt. Gox offered a complete rundown of what happened with Baron's account.  Executive summary:  damning evidence of more than $45,000 worth of theft.

Baron began posting in red that Mt. Gox is a scammer, that he would have him put in jail, while still refusing to identify himself or even his nationality, apparently forgetting that he claimed he had already done so.

Mt. Gox added that since putting the money in his Mt. Gox account Baron has been withdrawing the maximum per day, and that logs of the standard bitcoin trade channel on IRC contain nothing like the alleged purchase from "the real thief".

And that's where we're up to now, 37 pages and a little over one week later.  I hope I was able to save some people the wade through all that.  I'll try to update it as anything new comes in so we can keep it out of this thread as much as possible, and hopefully save some people the dig through that one as well.  Took a good few hours out of my life, but better one person than everybody.  So to get the focus back on track, here is my own short and sweet description of my trust in Mt. Gox:

I had no prior relationship with anyone in the Bitcoin community when I joined it a couple months ago.  Every single Bitcoin I have purchased (not a fortune, but a decent amount) has been facilitated in one way or another by Mt. Gox.  I think that Jed has handled this difficult situation exceptionally well.  I don't feel at all that he's overstepped his boundaries.  To stand idly by while a thief made off with so much cash would have been unconscionable.  He's been fair, open, and the only thing anyone can say against him is that he doesn't spend his whole life on the internet.  Thank goodness he's actually running the business part of the time!  Baron is working his story as hard as he can, but it doesn't begin to match up.  If Mt. Gox was acting in the least bit unfair toward him it would have been a massive risk that an unknown Mt. Gox user turn out to be a respected member of the community, or the planet, who could destroy Mt. Gox's reputation in a heartbeat.  Instead we have a nameless, faceless username just trying to stir up trouble because he got caught.  I won't begin to give him the satisfaction.

End result?  I pretty much trust Mt. Gox hands down.  I'll trust the exchange with my money and identity, my respect, and with an important role in the future of the Bitcoin community at this crucial time.  I would firmly recommend it to any new or old user of Bitcoin as reliable and trustworthy.  That's the takeaway from this thing--tested and found true.

Go Mt. Gox!  I'm behind you!!  This incident just proves how hard you work to do your job, and I'm greatly indebted to you for it.  Here's to a long and bright future for both you and Bitcoin itself, despite anybody else's attempts.


Sincerely,
eMansipater

[1714152968]

1714152968

[1714152968]

1714152968

[1714152968]

1714152968

[FreeMoney]

I picked "other" because while I trust strongly that mtgox will not screw me or other honest traders on his own I worry that he will be willing in the future to comply with third parties concerning our accounts. So far there is not much evidence for this, he hasn't tried any KYC stuff which is a good sign. He does have a $1000/day restriction which I believe is based on his understanding of some regulation from some government. I don't have a problem with the rule; I can see already how it has saved some money from fraud. But I'm concerned about what will happen if a government that he considers himself subject to writes down that bitcoins must be destroyed or some nonsense like that.

Maybe he does have more loyalty to justice than to governments, but that isn't clear to me.

Concerning Baron's case, well done imo.

[BitterTea]

I've done business with mtgox three times now - twice using paxum, once via write transfer. I have been completely satisfied each time.

I trust him, but at the same time some clear terms would be nice.

[TheKoziTwo]

I personally don't know much about mtgox and base my trust mostly upon others experience. In other words, I trust him as an honest guy. However I do not believe that he is running a legal business (following all required laws). I do not blame him for this, but I think his site is constantly at very high risk from authorities all across the world where he is operating (bank accounts). I can imagine one or several of his bank accounts being frozen eventually, and that could lead to the loss of our money, or a large part of it anyway. On top of that there has been several security breaches. I currently trust him with a 4-digit amount and I think I could trust him with a small 5-digit if a substential amount was stored as bitcoins (this is just based on a wild guess that mtgox will not let bitcoin-holders suffer if bank accounts are frozen).

In summary, I trust mtgox as an honest guy, but I don't think his business will be left alone forever.

[jgarzik]

+1 mtgox

[wb3]

You say this:

First the, main reason this thread is in "Marketplace" is because of the gargantuan "$45,000 thread" in here.  But, it also fits here because it is about Mt. Gox and Mt. Gox is a key player in the Bitcoin marketplace.

Second, the purpose of this topic is to help out people who are trying to interpret what that giant thread actually means for Bitcoin, Mt. Gox, etc. without having to wade through it.  It is not a place for bickering over scams, calling people out, arguing about details--page 6289 of the other thread is for that.  It is just a simple place for people, in one short post per person, to describe their level of trust in Mt. Gox, and what their personal experience with the site and its owner has been.  Save the speculation and philosophical conflicts for elsewhere, please.  Let's keep this about just the day-to-day participation of Mt. Gox in the Bitcoin community.

And then go on to explain the whole case.

How does MtGox track BTC and why should he care?  They went from one account to another, the hows and whys don't matter.

So from the above quote:

I don't know MtGox, I have not tried to find out who he is, but wouldn't seem to be that hard. What I do know is that by his own admission, he froze an account due to suspicious activity determined by HIM.

Scenerio:

   If I stole $9,000 dollars from one bank, store, person, whatever and deposited the money into a bank account, the bank doesn't care or want to know where I got the money (Exception: in the U.S. if you deposit more than $10,000 they won't ask you anything but they are required to report the xaction, I think it is Title X Laws). This is why alot of the proffessional launders do $8,000, 9,000,  or maybe even $9,999.99 but thats obvious.

  And if later I want to take out the $9,000 dollars there is again no questions asked. They will verify who I am, and pay me. They never ask where I got the money. Or prove to me how you got the money.  The ID part is irrelevant here; but what if Baron did send a scanned passport to MtGox. Would MtGox release the money. I doubt it. How do you verify the passport info? You can't.

So a guy on the otherside of the world, will have to show up at MtGox, Inc in the USA to satisfy the dispute. I can get you scanned copies of passports all day long.

Law Enforcement freezes accounts, not banks.  PayPal does it but report the activity to law enforcement and request details. It hurts their business too.

It looks like someone needs to open the Xchange in Switzerland or the Cayman Islands to avoid all the minutia.

Hell, illegal sites shy away from freezing money (i.e. all the gambling sites that cater to the U.S. are illegal but they don't ask where you got the money from, and they give it back pretty quickly) Why? Because it is good for business.


In conclusion:

Personally I would want to trust MtGox but questions and actions have raised an eyebrow.

If MtGox wants to operate as a business, legitimately, then fine:

Provide an Name, Address, Phone Number, Email, Incorporation Data, etc....  Then MtGox will be on the road to legitimacy.


Anyway Hope it gets resolve because these service will be needed for success of the BitCoin, but as of now I am leaning towards a NO on MtGox.

[BitterTea]

Just so you know, many of us here are anarchists, and care not one whit whether or not any state considers mtgox to be a "legitimate" business. So while that may be a concern for you, don't assume that it is a concern for anybody else.

edit... In fact, my trust in mtgox would be lower if he became "legitimate", almost entirely because I do not trust any states to act in a way that is good for me and my money.

[BCEmporium]

Just so you know, many of us here are anarchists, and care not one whit whether or not any state considers mtgox to be a "legitimate" business. So while that may be a concern for you, don't assume that it is a concern for anybody else.

Issue; if you are anarchist you wouldn't want any form of state, be it an organized state as we do have normally, or mtgox's state.

I don't care for this specific issue, I care for overall damage on BTC, being mtgox the core of BTC exchanging any damage to mtgox roundabout to damage the community. This Baron vs mtgox shouldn't be taken place here in the bitcoin core.
Void threats with "I unleash my lawyers at you (and they're rabid)" and so on... 

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

My answer:

Quite a bit:  I think there are probably some details to work out and changes to make, but we're getting there.

Mtgox's behavior is certainly annoying, but i still do trust him as an exchanger.

[eMansipater]

@wb3 the content in the first post is just direct quotes and summaries, all linked back so you can read it yourself without going through the whole thread for hours.  Your conclusion is bang on topic, the scenario bit might be better served in the big thread.  Up to you and everybody else to decide, but just as a suggestion.  There are lots of relevant responses to it(if you're interested in what I mean I'll happily expand in another thread) but my preference is not to clutter up this topic with them.


@vladimir definitely!!!

[wb3]

Just so you know, many of us here are anarchists, and care not one whit whether or not any state considers mtgox to be a "legitimate" business. So while that may be a concern for you, don't assume that it is a concern for anybody else.

edit... In fact, my trust in mtgox would be lower if he became "legitimate", almost entirely because I do not trust any states to act in a way that is good for me and my money.

The anarchist bit I understand.

But if you do not know MtGox, and EXPECT no recourse through legal means, why would you give money to him.  You would trust him less if he was legitimate, huh...    So by being illegitimate you trust him more...  And you don't personally know him... Yea that is an anarchist...

 An anarchist with no money.

I think I trust him more than Baron, but Baron isn't operating an exchange. MtGox is.

Lets assume Baron stole the Money, why does MtGox care?, and if he recovers the money from Baron's account, what is he going to do with it? How is he going to get it back to its rightful owners? Can that even be done?  Is MtGox going to keep it for himself?

I know one thing for sure, even the anarchist like their money. But if you really want to cause havoc, just send all your money to:

1BRsTuYvGB5ALSTuk7GXb8R5kkW5j9ic3C

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

@wb3 the content in the first post is just direct quotes and summaries, all linked back so you can read it yourself without going through the whole thread for hours.  Your conclusion is bang on topic, the scenario bit might be better served in the big thread.  Up to you and everybody else to decide, but just as a suggestion.  There are lots of relevant responses to it(if you're interested in what I mean I'll happily expand in another thread) but my preference is not to clutter up this topic with them.

I would advise everybody to be VERY CAREFUL when discussing with wb3.
He registered just today, and many of his posts are in mtgox-related threads.

He is highly likely to be Baron's alter ego. If that is the case, he will be manipulating everybody to lower their trust in mtgox.

The anarchist bit I understand.
(...)
I know one thing for sure, even the anarchist like their money. But if you really want to cause havoc, just send all your money to:

Hey, are you Baron by any chance ?

[eMansipater]

Lets assume Baron stole the Money, why does MtGox care?, and if he recovers the money from Baron's account, what is he going to do with it? How is he going to get it back to its rightful owners? Can that even be done?  Is MtGox going to keep it for himself?

Details like this very much off topic.  Keep it in the other thread.

[grondilu]

Well, one thing about a bitcoin exchange plateform is that you can easily get your bitcoins back, right?

Right now I'm in the process of funding my MtGox account for the first time.  Hopefully I'll be able to get my bitcoins as soon as I buy them right? 

However, I remember having heard about a 45 days delay.  Does it still exist?  I hope not.  Moreover, if I recall correctly, this delay was due to paypal reversal possibility, and I founded my account with a bank wire.  So I guess there is no reason why there should be a delay for me.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

@wb3

So will you answer me ? Are you Baron or not ?
How long will you keep me waiting ? I can see that you are online...

[BitterTea]

If I stole $9,000 dollars from one bank, store, person, whatever and deposited the money into a bank account, the bank doesn't care or want to know where I got the money

If you think the state endorsed banking system will let you keep money under suspicion of theft, you are sorely mistaken. Your accounts will be frozen and unless you can answer all questions to the satisfaction of the police, you will never see your money again. In fact, suspicion of illegal activity isn't even necessary in order for your money to be stolen by the police. There have been many cases in the U.S. where an individual traveling with a large amount of cash, absent any indicators of illegal activity, had their money seized by the government.

Issue; if you are anarchist you wouldn't want any form of state, be it an organized state as we do have normally, or mtgox's state.

A state is an entity with a monopoly on the use of force in a geographical area. It uses violence, or the threat thereof, in order to extract money from those living within its borders, in order to provide services that may be unwanted.

Mtgox can only take my money if I agree to exchange his services for my money.

As you can see, mtgox is nothing like a state.

[BitterTea]

The anarchist bit I understand.

I doubt you truly do.

But if you do not know MtGox, and EXPECT no recourse through legal means, why would you give money to him.

He offers a service that is useful to me, at a price I find reasonable. I trust him based on his reputation, which is earned, unlike a state granted license.

You would trust him less if he was legitimate, huh...    So by being illegitimate you trust him more...  And you don't personally know him... Yea that is an anarchist...

You don't understand. I consider the state to be illegitimate. Anyone who rejects the state gains legitimacy in my eyes. Not yours, but mine.

Lets assume Baron stole the Money, why does MtGox care?

The money was stolen while placed in his care. His business's reputation is at stake. Let's say you had 9000 BTC in your mtgox account and it was stolen. Would you continue to do business with him if he just said "too bad" and let the thief get away with the money?

Is MtGox going to keep it for himself?

I find this outcome highly unlikely. Again, his reputation is on the line. Why would he risk it?

[wb3]

@wb3

So will you answer me ? Are you Baron or not ?
How long will you keep me waiting ? I can see that you are online...

Sorry I was doing some research.  

No, I am not Baron.  Baron was an idiot. I don't have to much sympathy for him.  My concern it the Xchange. There needs to be one, and one that follows accepted rules.  I hope MtGox can be trusted. That is the question. Most people or services for xchange care little for where the money comes from. They just want the fees for the xchange.  

Baron didn't put himself up as a service, he just used a service.  What is to be decided is if the service operates fairly amongst all BTC xchangers.

I am interested in an Xchange, so I am looking into the MtGox thing.  Regeristered in Brooklyn,NY, USA servers in Dallas,TX etc...  associtated with edonkey etc...  

If I give him or them a $1000.00 USD, I want to know "who" to blame if something goes wrong with the xchange.

Because I can tell you one thing, If it was my 45,000 USD, he wouldn't need my passport. We would be talking face to face, mono et mono.  If he ask where I got the money, it would be none of his business. If he expects its criminal then Prove it.

So no, I am not Baron.  Because if I was and if the fee for transfers are 1% or whatever, I would have xferred $10.00 at a time. The fee would be the same. Baron was a fool.

[mndrix]

I trust Mt. Gox quite a bit.  I deal with him 2-3 times each week depositing large amounts to my account there.  Mt. Gox has always been responsive and based on my dealings I am persuaded that it's as honest a Bitcoin business as there is.  Mt. Gox handled the PayPal account problems last fall and the recent baron business respectably.  In both cases, his response increased my trust in him.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

@wb3

So will you answer me ? Are you Baron or not ?
How long will you keep me waiting ? I can see that you are online...

Sorry I was doing some research.  

Of course you were.

No, I am not Baron.  Baron was an idiot.
(...)
Baron was a fool

Why do you keep emphasizing that he was stupid ?
Are you a newer, better, upgraded version of Baron 2.0 or what ?

Will your scams be far superior to Baron's ones ?

I don't have to much sympathy for him.  

1. Hmmmm.... Talking almost as if you knew him, you are.
Suspicious it is, indeed.

2. If you don't have too much sympathy, then you have SOME sympathy after all. Is that correct ?