Bitcoin Forum

Pirate's scheme from the getgo had all the hallmarks of a typical ponzi.  Without more information than what was and is known publicly, anyone who can think should and would have assumed it to be a ponzi.

The only reason I gave this scheme any credibility whatsoever was the fact that a lot of generally intelligent and (apparently at least ) even honest long timers on this forum gave it not only the benefit of the doubt, but full credibility. Many of them did know more than I did, because they met Pirate, because some at least claimed to know and understand his business model.  People who I assume to be smart enough to recognize a ponzi when staring at one this obvious. If they were totally convinced it wasn't one, what was it they knew that I did not?

This is still true today, perhaps even more so than 6 months ago. IF 6 months ago, I was 95% sure  it was a ponzi, right now, ironically,  I am *less * sure . Why ? Because these same, generally intelligent people  dont seem to be thrown off one bit, despite the fact that it looks like a ponzi now more than anything ever could.  Because I dont believe Matthew, crazy as he may be, is actually stupid enough or can even afford to bet $1M on something he wouldnt be sure off or doesnt  understand himself.  Because none of those big Pirate backers are getting out their pitchforks. In fact most of them are still tacitly supporting him.

There are not so many explications for this. Either it is not a ponzi and somehow Pirate will pay up, crazy as that may sound to anyone who has no more information than I have.

Or if it is a ponzi, then the vast majority of pirate backers were given an incentive to pretend to believe him. I might believe Goat is stupid enough to be fooled  by pirate, but I will not believe that from most of the others. IOW, if this unfolds like it appears it will,  they would be knowing accomplices.  And very effective ones at that.

What happened to the conspiracy theory where I was dating Pirate's sister? I liked that one better.  :D

I agree. If it turns out to be a Ponzi, the people who met him in real life and agreed to run passthrus etc should be looked at more closely.

Remember that early adopters could easily have already received far more than they put in. Rather than have it clawed back it might seem more politic to them to simply continue the charade...

-MarkM-

If you werent fooled, then either you are still convinced pirate will pay out in full, or you are saying that you knew all along. Which is it?

all these new guys  with under 10 posts defending pirate and blaming the victims of the theft look highly suspicious to me
same with people saying stuff like ,dont be posting his personal details online just because he scammed you in obvious ponzi etc like WTF ....

if he did  rob $5.5 million worth of bitcoins ,dont expect  "privacy to be respected"

also anyone buying up reduced priced accounts deserves further  scrutiny as well in the even that pirate does manage to buy his debt at about 30% of face value and then pay the remaining debtors

if he deliberately  created enough panic that he can pay back 2 mil instead of 5.5 mil i would still class that as a partial scam /default

If it all turns bad I dont think its fair to say *all* the PPT ppls were accomplices... some were pretty much saying they know how it all works and its safe blah blah blah and others were not... for e.g I dont think I saw Payb.tc give his opinion on if it was safe, he made the risks very clear... but yeah.. others operators were clearly trying to get more business.

Even if you had a brain, I cant look in to yours. The issue here is not if I am sure, a more interesting question is if you are since you have been on the take and convinced countless people to deposit. So are you saying you scammed them knowingly or that you still stand behind pirate?

You can know how it worked and still know the risks. Do you know failed safe business? I don't.

The following points in relation to all of the PPT operators (and GLBSE operators too) shall be considered:
- have they managed a proxy for an opaque investment that has exhibited all the classical signs of a ponzi scheme?
- have they profited from prolongation and proliferation of a ponzi scheme?
- have they owed a duty of care and fiduciary duty to anyone who gave them money?
- have they provided adequate risk disclosures?
- have they implied at any time that pirate is not operating a ponzi scheme?
- have they implied at any time that they know some magical/secret biz model behind pirate operation?
- have they implied at any time that they know true identity of pirate?
- have they promoted investment into and lent credibity (or false credibility) to a ponzi scheme in any way?
- ought they to know better?

I personally have ALL PPT operators on my shit list permanently. Which means that I will do my best to avoid doing any business with those people myself and will encourage all my associates to avoid doing any business with those people and I will refuse to be a member of any organisation or association which also has any of those people as members.

But that's just me, your mileage may vary.

for what it worth:

Vladimir, you forgot the ALL TIME CLASSIC.....


I wonder what that makes a person who tries to wipe his tracks out of the sand then ?

I haven't seen anyone mention anywhere the possibility that Pirate himself is getting screwed by someone else. If he really was he was using the BTC to fund some sort of real world operation, it's possible someone else saw the chance to use him as a fall guy and a sucker in his in own right. They saw a way to get him to suck 5 million out of the bitcoin community while leading him along the whole time. It sounds like an excuse, but it's entirely possible.

Yes...and the Moon is made of Cheese.

Do you mean something like this http://bitcoinmagazine.net/ponzi-schemes-the-danger-of-high-interest-savings-funds/ ?

Maybe he knows a Chinese relic collector named Chen.   ::)

Lets be honest. Nothing will happen to anyone just like all the scams before.

Show me one time a large theft of bitcoin ever got dealt with criminal charges?

Show me a case where the PERP was in the USA and known 100%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ3_gfgiNz8

Jonathan Ryan Owens  :D

Very few of the apparent shills were saying anything so modest (something like "well, he's always paid me back" might have been reasonable).  Instead, they launched in to tirades about how irresponsible it was call it a Ponzi without proof, and about how they know his business model--in fact, his business model was obvious!

This is not passive investment (indeed, a passive investor who thought he had a legitimate model might appreciate "FUD" because it would help keep others out and keep their own "legitimate" rates up). No, this was shill behavior.  I am convinced that the only reason these people continue to defend Pirate "credulously" is they want to convince others they are innocent victims rather than shills.

Vladimir,

when did i ever:

- imply that pirate is not operating a ponzi scheme
- imply that i knew what the hell pirate was doing behind the scenes
- imply that i knew the true identity of pirate

please supply direct quotes for the above.

Goat you do your nickname dishonour.
reread what I wrote and then respond.

Seems to me that all those that set up Pirate pass-thrus investments were very clear about what they were.  If they were trying to hide the fact that they were Pirate pass-thrus then that would be suspicious, but otherwise I can't see any reason to place blame on them.

That is an interesting thought.  If it was so obvious that Pirate was a ponzi, why did Theymos want in? and so late in the game besides?

I thought everybody already knew Nefario is a pirate?

At least I can read, which is apparently more than you can. Lets try again, shall we?
You deny being fooled by Pirate, correct?
Hence either you are still convinced he will pay out, or you never believed it. Which is it? Its a simple question goat, you cant have it three ways.

Theymos ONLY wanted into an insured portion of the fund.

People should not get the wrong idea and rather do their due diligence or ask him directly.

Well thats awkward.....

Insured or not, willing participating in a 'known' ponzi is certainly immoral and most likely illegal.  If nothing else, his request for the insured PPT is what blew up the PPT market.  Before then, there were very few, I think 1 actually.

..and you are a fucking COWARD shill.

Remember 1 thing: I didn't rip anyone off, nor is there a grey area in my ledger.

Perhaps try a bit of self reflection before pointing the finger to get heat off of yourself.

Goat on a Boat ? More like a Chicken getting a Dick'n.

Goat do you routinely out your clients and investors?  Remind me to never do business with you.  Crazy I know that I would expect financial privacy on business deals made in .... private.

The request was made in public.

Oh it's a 'known' ponzi now? That's a refreshing change from your usual posts.

By all means though, continue to deflect the heat onto your customers if you don't like the questions being asked.   ::)

I stand corrected.  Can't believe I missed that post.

I missed that as well, because at last check, I saw theymos talking about insured investments in Pirate.

Thats why its in quotes.  I get crap for not acknowledging it was an obvious ponzi.  I only raise Theymos' request because I think it indicates perhaps maybe it wasn't such an obvious ponzi as some would have you believe.

Simple logic isnt slander goat. You were the one claiming not to have been fooled, so you havent changed your mind. There are no other options than either you still believe in Pirates ability to pay back, or you never did.
As for this respect thing; please, you are the only one crying about it. Grow up.

Theymos admitted he believed it was probably a ponzi but considered a type of gambling.

Well I'm not p4man, but here you go buddy-

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91252.msg1064948#msg1064948

Shakaru, Bruce Wagner.

Theymos also took up Matthew on the bet that pirate will default, so it proves nothing either way.

If I was planning to scam millions of dollars, I'd put a bunch of work months or even a year ahead of time creating sock puppet accounts.

Sure thing. If I could read all the PMs...

So Goat... Not going to comment on THAT ?

It's not out of context it was the full quote linking to the thread.

It's like p4man already laid out, there is only two options.

Either you knew it was a ponzi, or pirate fooled you. No other way about it.

Well not all PMs. :)

Oh he can't? i was sure he could basically access everything

I think that they mean that he cannot read encrypted PMs.

You were either knowingly complicit in a Ponzi scheme, or full of shit. Which is it?
 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91252.msg1064948#msg1064948 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91252.msg1064948#msg1064948)

For the record, by "on the take" I mean goat profited from this scheme (at zero risk), as did all other PPT passthrough providers. There might have been incentives beyond that, but we dont know that.

As for there being 2 possibilities, there is a third, unlikely as it may seem; the OP is written with the explicit assumption it was a ponzi/scam. THis seems rather likely, but is not certain yet.

Good point.  This would be quite elaborate, but with a $5mm bankroll, I am sure you can find some social engineering experts looking to take up a challenge.  Hate to see anyone lose money though, hope you guys get it back.

Well, there have been a couple of forum members now who have claimed to have discovered his business model (with the inference it's not a ponzi). I couldn't find the older thread in my history, perhaps it was deleted. It had the phrase "open mind" while going through Pirateat40's forum posts revealed how he was legitimately generating consistent 7+% a week. But here is a fresher version, "That being said, read his post on this forum and on IRC and you will get an almost clear picture about his business.":

It seems to only survive as a quote from another poster:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.msg607752#msg607752

(I can't quote it properly since the thread is locked)

"Quote from: pirateat40 on November 03, 2011, 07:14:09 PM
The Business:
Over the last few months I have been selling BTC to a group of local people.  Now this is a don't ask don't tell group of people so I can't tell you exactly where and to whom the coins ultimately end up with but so far its been pretty painless.   During this last week I maxed out my available coins both personally and "leased" from other members and they needed a lot more.  Up until now, I have dealt with my core group of friends and been able to handle the requests, but they seem to be getting larger and more frequent.  So now I'm looking into other methods for keeping a consistent storage or on-demand availability of coins.  I have two plans available for those sitting on coins.

On-Demand
When an order comes in that is over what I have available I'll send out a request to users in this plan requesting the total needed.  The first to respond gets the deal and the transfer is made.  These coins will be tide up for 1 business day to give me enough time to settle the transaction and acquire the coins to return. This plan pays a flat 3.5%.

Storage
This plan works as an ongoing commitment.  You would send coins anytime to the address provided and you would earn interest on a daily basis.  You can withdraw your balance at anytime, but I do request that you give me a couple hours to insure I have coverage for the next order.  Interest payments are paid out ever 3 days until either you withdraw the funds or my local dealings dry up and I can no longer be profitable. This plan pays 1% per day.

Now I would hope to have enough people on the storage plan that I wouldn't have a need for the on-demand but I'll see how it goes.  I ultimately want the ability to provide coins at anytime and any amount for these guys and we can all share in the profits.

I've created my own custom management software that I've built to monitor deposits, withdraws and interest payments.  As this gets bigger I'll build a front end for it so users can view and manage there account and maybe putting that domain btclending.com to good use.   

For more information send me a PM or just ask below.  You can check out my OTC ratings in my signature.

Edit: I forgot to mention that dealing with anything less than 50BTC is more work than its worth so I've made that the minimum on both plans.

Thanks"


So, it seems like...money laundering!

No my friend, I don't believe you go far enough. Once this is finally determined to be a fraud, those who were his willing accomplices should be far more that "looked at more closely", they should be held accountable for their profiteering and their participation in whatever criminal enterprise was going on. That accountability should include full restitution to all victims of their participation in the fraud, immediate and permanent banning from all commercial activities in this community, and lengthy jail sentences, where they can enjoy being on the receiving end of a raping similar to the one they have all been giving to everyone else involved in this disaster from the word go.

Every shill, every mouthpiece, every pass-thru pimp, every die hard sockpuppet should be destroyed financially, forced into receivership to make good on every centime that they gained by taking part in the Rape of Bitcoin, beaten severely, lose all online access for life, be branded across the forehead with INTERNET SCAMMER, and forced to become the fucktoy of a diseased, angry, and horny White Supremacist convict in the hardest Federal Vacation spot available.

Because these, brothers and sisters, are the very rotten maggots eating away at the heart of this movement, stealing and defrauding for their own gain, and killing any chance this alt-currency will ever have to be accepted as a legitimate means of exchange by the world at large, and keep it the private playground of the bleeding edge technorati and the criminals who are learning to prey upon them.

Stake a few of them up on the border of the Internet pour encourager les autres, just as they did with a previous generation of pirates at the entrance to Port Royal.

Am i reading this right? SO now you say you knew it was a ponzi all along? Woha, some people are going to have a field day digging up quotes from you Im sure.


No Goat, In fact I did exactly what Theymos did. But there is a difference between saying something is almost certainly a ponzi yet gambling some of  your own money on being able to extract your coins in time, as compared to what  you did. IF nothing else, one is a criminal offence in most places, the other isnt.

I can even quote, go figure:


And stop hiding behind Theymos.

Based on that thread, it seems all Theymos possibly needs to do is to apologize to the community for his short-sightedness and disgorge ill-gotten profits, perhaps by making a donation to a worthwhile cause.

While all the shills likely shall face criminal investigation or worse and face the consequences of their actions.

Those who did the pass-thru-bonds;

I'm not defending them, in fact with hindsight I'm sure even themselves think what they did was pretty bad decision. One could say stupid.
Hindsight is like that though, it's not kind to you when you did something that _could_ really turn around and bit you in the ass.
Pirate himself should of done these kind of bonds on GLBSE, got to ask why he did not. They got used.

They got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, but the problem is it had a false bottom, pirate's already taken the cookies.
They are the ones left behind trying to explain they didn't steal the cookies.

Best to calm down, for those who lost big, do your best to make a legal case against pirate, their seems to be enough info floating around about him now.

Perhaps he did bitcoin a favour by making this blow up faster. Either way, Theymos clearly stated he assumed it to be a ponzi, and most importantly, he gambled with his own money.

I wish you guys would SSSsshhhhhh.......or we will never get paid  ::)

I love you Pirate ! Please send money for Granny's hip replacement soon.

Love Always,
Your Dear Friend,
bitlane.

I've repeatedly said it was probably a Ponzi.

---

---

No way. All BS&T investors should have known the risks before investing. A 7% weekly interest rate is obviously incredibly risky, even if the interest is generated legitimately. I gambled and, though I was prepared to lose it all, I was lucky enough to win. Others who were not so lucky have no right to complain to me.

I can, so here it is for posterity.

To answer your question; I cant be bothered to  search through all your drivel, so these quotes will have to do:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91661.msg1012605#msg1012605

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91661.msg1030188#msg1030188

Im sure others will find more juicy ones, there must be a bazillion posts where you insult anyone questioning Pirate or BST, but these should be enough to make you crawl back under your rock.

The reason I believed it to NOT be a Ponzi was that I truly believed that he manipulated the market, but gradually lost his stranglehold on it once Bitcoinica disappeared and he lost the ability to trigger panic liquidity on 'the down swing' from inexperienced traders using that along with shitty BOTs.

<EDIT>
In hindsight, the Ponzi may have very well been born when the above that I wrote took place and personal returns diminished, requiring new money to pay old.

Theymos, you have your opinion, I have mine. We can agree to disagree. This is a relatively minor point anyway.

Yah I remember the thread he said something to the tune "no one with half a brain thinks it's a ponzi", Someone replied "yes only people with a full functioning brain do". Can't find it now since goat post too much. He joined in on spamming "ponzi, ponzi, ponzi, mushroom, mushroom" mocking anyone that suggested it was a scam. Was really aggressive during July, him, Clipse, BurtW, imsaguy, aq are the ones that really got desperate. Sure there's more but those were the ones that really put the propaganda machine into full motion that I can remember. Now he's totally flipped position, his arguments in this thread are devoid of any logic and half of them are just ad hominem attacks, this guy is a world class sleaze ball.

Thanks, I googled your memory :)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91306.msg1008107#msg1008107

To his credit, he probably was right on the second paragraph :)

You bastard! You stole my reply.

To paraphrase a line from Apocalypse Now: I love threads like this first thing in the morning.

~Bruno~

Goatski! I'm stunned. When have you ever known me to retract a statement? Or (yuck, it just sounds wrong even writing it...) deleting a post to be politically correct? And please, for the sake of debatorial consistency, re-read my post. I said nothing that was anti free market or pro-regulation. If anything, I was pro LYNCH MOB. Pro-regulation typically does not include forced branding of the face, Nazi gang rape in prison, or the application of smiting the evil law to the finances of the accused. Free markets, of which I am a well armed, deep thinking and militant activist for, are not the protected playgrounds of the criminal, and those who call for the execution of or at the very least physical torture, and forced servitude of criminals who violate the mores of that market is not against the system, they are the advocates of that system bringing justice and consequence to those who would violate the market for unethical gain.

As an early adopter of the Pass Thru Bond, and a vocal advocate of the system... you have made considerable gain from your use of the "pirate system" whatever that system may be. That's great for you, and those that have profited with you. But if this whole "pirate system" turns out to be a scam writ large, as I and many others suspect it will be, you will not be on the side of the angels if you sit back and try to wrap yourself in a cloak of outrage about attitudes towards free markets. Free markets are not about a license to cheat, they are about removing artificial constructs to govern the behaviour of the means of exchange between seller and buyer of goods and/or services. If one side of that equation is cheating, they that side had best make good when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

Or don't be surprised when the exercise of free market response to unbalanced trade is the forcible removal of that offending hand with a rusty chain saw. While your wife watches. And your children are sold into white slavery to satisfy your debt to the scary men with weapons who also believe in free markets that you tried to cheat.

Pass Thru does not isolate you from responsibility. Those who created the Pass Thru mechanism, and marketed it did so as the agents of the system, and will not have any place to hide when the note comes due. You are as responsible to those who entrusted funds to you to invest with pirate as pirate himself is, you chose to be a middleman and profit off the transaction. You now own the obligation. How are you going to make good on it is what you should be thinking about right now.

The terms of the PPTs were very clear. The vigilante sentiment that has been floating around lately is just sickening (even considering the hyperbole).

+1

Not only do I love how you write, I admire the way you look out for the community.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7276/7873630046_58328269a0.jpg

^^This is the real reason bitcoin will never become mainstream.  This internet-vigilante-stalker shtick does more harm to bitcoin's image than any obvious scam.

Please don't misuse the term.   Adam Smith defined free markets as markets free from corruption, fraud, coercion, and governmental interference.  A ponzi scheme is not a free market.  Not unless you accept that the victims have a right to extract $5M in compensation from the operator.  Having the perpetrators hide behind the defense of the law (governmental interference) while claiming "free market, free market" is the height of hypocrisy.

The free market would involve the creditors using any means necessary to secure recovery of their funds including seizing all Pirates assets, his livelihood, his businesses, his future earnings/pensions/inheritances, and holding as collateral anything he holds dear.  The same would be done for those who helped to perpetuate this fraud.

Thankfully for Pirate and others there is no free market but please please don't pretend a free market is only a one way street.  A market which allows a criminal to engage in fraud but then protect him from consequences of that fraud is not free, not even close.

Hmm.. Im not sure I  agree.
Their main responsibility would be sticking to the letter of their contracts. Particularly someone like  PayBTC who has to his credit   been fairly upfront about the pirate risk, never said he understood or even trusted the business model, but there was demand for passthroughs bonds and he delivered and fulfilled his end of the bargain.

That might even be true for goat's bonds, but the big difference here is Goat claimed to know what pirate did, and said over and over again it was not a ponzi. Now it appears he did indeed know what pirate did and it was a ponzi.  Perhaps that could or should make him liable for losses incurred, IANAL, but even if not, it sure makes him a hypocrite lying sack of shit.

I just want to say here that notme deserves a lot of credit for how he handled his passthrough (he paid back his subaccounts out of his own pocket). Kudos to him, man. That's not the kind of integrity you see everyday, much less on the internet.

HB

HonestBob- if you are willing to put honest in your name, I know we don't have to worry about you, but is it really a "vigilante sentiment" when folks start talking about the consequences of stealing over $5,000,000? To me it is more cause and effect. Nothing sentimental about it. You offer a service and make good on that service, you deserve your reward, enjoy your profit and pass Go, collect $200 and have a great life. You create a multi-dimensional scam, recruit a willing army of dupes to pimp it for you, fleece five million dollars worth of value from the "investors" who contributed to your magical money making machine, and then think because you can curse at a couple of folks you get to walk away free and clear with your gains? Nope. And still not sentimental, you deserve that reward too, it just won't be as pleasant as the first. You created the scenario, you live with the results, irrespective of how horrific they may be. Lay down with dogs, expect fleas. Lay down with an anonymous money laundering operation that is generating profits at a South Sea Bubble rate and then think you can just walk away with everything? Expect consequences. Big scary, bad men with bad intention consequences.

Don't play if you don't like results when you don't win. Big boy games that can make 7% gains in a day, every single day do not attract big boys that are forgiving when the balloon pops.

Thanks for your constructive thoughts little sockpuppet. I'm so glad that you have determined what is good and not so good for bitcoin. Scam = good, talking about what happens to scammers = bad in your world. Okay, glad you cleared that up. Go back to your corner and resume drooling, the grown ups really don't need your input on this one. We'll let you know if there is a call for the simpleton vote, and you will be the guy.

Patrick also said the he figured it out.

I see what you are saying. If I were Pirate, I too would be scared for my life. I guess the line between discussing the grave reality of revenge vs. actually condoning it is a blurry one for me.

For starters. You knew enough to meet him in Vegas along with all the others who are now a part of this too. All of you are a part of this theft.

No! No no no. They went and gambled and had some fun. I think they really believed in his business. They're victims, not thieves.

This isn't a productive path to go down anyway.

Why, because they were complicit in bringing in massive amounts of new "investment" to an incredibly shady lender running a ponzi scheme, all the while trying to shut down any questioning of the scheme and conspiring to maintain opaque accounts etc? Well fucking waaa. I feel so sorry for them.  ::)

Interesting post.


This post has disapeared somehow.

If I understand  it correctly Burt Wagner was quoted as saying:


That would be nice to have that Burt's post "undeleted" and posted here.

Vladimir, I've never respected you more than I do now after reading this..

This is a very rational way of thinking about this..

Some of these people need to be under the magnifying glass..  not all..

Thank god some people around here still have a brain!..

This is also my exact thoughts as well..

Plenty of fraudsters have public lives and stick around too long. That is not evidence for or against legitimate conduct. Neither do pseudo-anonymous allusions to vigilantism magically negate the responsibility those, who claimed to know what business pirate was engaged in while defending his investment vehicle, have to come forward with that information.

+1  - Reputation is worth more in the long-run.

There is a world of difference difference between fooling and being fooled, scamming or being scammed. If you genuinely believed it to be true, and it turns out it isnt,  even if you spread the  word, you were still  scammed,  not scamming. You didnt profit from it, you lost.


Pirate co owns gpumax, but he isnt the only one. Besides, the risk is minimal, one or two days worth of mining.  But if gpumax paid out once a week or month, I doubt there would be many miners there right now.


Seems to me zux0r is the one doing all the work there.


I can only speak for myself, but the accusations I make are under the stated assumption this turns out to be a scam, which seems highly likely  now, but Im willing to give it another week or so before I drop any such qualifications .
(There are some exceptions, regardless of the outcome of this saga, goats constant contradictions and flatout lies should stick to him regardless of what happens next. If by some miracle pirate pays out, Im sure Goat will tout he was always right and said so all along, and we should all bow and apologize, not to mention, we should forget he just claimed the opposite, and has been claiming the opposite of that opposite before. Whatever makes him more money.)

This might be what you're looking for.

I tend to agree (and wonder if any big lender already started to lawyer up), BUT we are not speaking about a smart con of real investors Madoff style. Here the scam was mathematically warranted and obvious to anyone with a brain; in fact most if not all "invested" betting to take home enough interests and maybe the capital too before the castle of cards collapsed. That's at least what I knew and did, and in a some months I took home enough interest to compensate all or almost of my capital now gone with a PPT.
This obviously does not absolve in any way the pro-pirate party, on the contrary it aggravate much their position.

Now, I would add that a further proof of the criminal scam is that nobody received a bitcent back (apart from a few fishy second-hand rumors of a few hundreds coins). If Pirate was honest in his intention to pay back, he could have liquidated whatever he was doing and give back what he could like in any business gone wrong. The fact that he instead keeps bulshitting around occasionally and paying nothing from 10 days speaks for itself.

No you don't because that is complete and pure hyperbole.  Not a single person has calimed they will engage in vigilantism and even if they did that would be what 1 (or a handful) out of tens of thousands.  Hardly "associated almost exclusively".

The fact that you can't see past that means you don't want to see past that.  You have no use for Bitcoin.  You have no use for this forum.  You have no use for your account other than to troll until the trolling gets boring and then you will disappear.

BTW you don't speak for 100,000 people.  You don't speak for anyone except your small insignificant self. 

I've actually reported several over the last few days and the forum mods seem to be cleaning them up pretty quick. 

We have thread after thread around here in which people point out that they're not children and they don't need to be warned about risk and the possibility of losing their money.  And yet here we have a thread in which people want to blame others for the risks they not only chose to take but were almost beating down doors to be allowed to take.

Most start ups will fail.  Most HYIPs will collapse.  These things are a given which people wilfully ignore time and time again in their rush to be in on the ground floor of high risk financial services.

Whether pirate's scheme was a scam or just a spectacular (and likely inevitable) business failure is yet to be determined, but nobody should being doing less due diligence when using pass-throughs than they would if they were making a direct investment.  Those running pass-throughs aren't your financial advisors or portfolio managers.

There should obviously be a serious attempt to find out whether pirate has taken the money and run, spent it on hookers and blow, or simply lost it in what was emphatically known to be an extremely high risk venture.  The appropriate course of action should be determined by the findings of such investigation, not solely by the fact that people lost money (a risk they happily undertook of their own free will).

For once, the amount involved is probably large enough to warrant investigation by conventional financial/computer crimes authorities rather than simply being regarded as a civil matter.  Of course, any such investigation may well reveal that pirate was using everyone's Bitcoins for explicitly illegal purposes and that the interest payments people received were the proceeds of crime.

To those seeking vigilante justice - how likely do you consider it is that you can exact retribution against pirate without any acts of vengeance against him being investigated?  Is this really something you're willing to risk prison time (or worse) over?

For first point, wouldn't really matter. He never disclosed was the was doing so "investors" wouldn't be held liable.

2nd point, well I wouldn't give a shit since I'm a ghost. But at the same time time I saw this for what is was long ago that I have no interest helping the idiots that were balls deep in this.  It's pretty funny to post about though.

I would be willing to act within the law as a PI though. i own a sailboat and am more familiar with SA/CA/Caribbean than anyone here I'm sure. :) With nothing to go on by a picture chances are slim to none though. And I would keep at least half of anything recovered.

Uh huh. The critical sailboat involved in investigating all ponzi schemes. And I'm sure you know soooo much more about all those places that say, oh, I don't know, how about the legitimate businesses that are being run in some of those places by folks in this community without the stench of criminal fraud? Is your Magnum PI the Sailor Boy certificate better than that too?

All of you little wonderful sock puppets and shills who have come out to cry foul over the pirate debacle just make me want to puke. How utterly and completely predictable. Big scammer plays his endgame and all the predictable trolls come running out to the defense of the gangster hoping that by toadying up to him they will get the crumbs from his table.

Here's a dose of "vigilantism" for you... think about just how important this coin is to the criminal elements that use SR. And then think about what fucking over $5,000,000 of that economy is going to feel like. Think there aren't a couple of pissed off hombres who would think nothing of the value of human life for that amount? You think there isn't a cartel hireling who would love nothing more than to make his bones with El Jefe by bringing him the head of the juiced up hacker boy who fucked up the single best money laundering operations El Jefe has found to date? When this turns out to be what many believe it already is, pirate is a dead man walking. That's not a threat, that's not vigilante action, that's the shakes in the world he decided to fuck around in. Oops, bummer, probably not the way he would have scripted it, but when you fly at that altitude, you really don't want to hit the windshield of reality. You fuck up $5,000,000 worth of somebody else's shit and think that you are going to walk? The vig on that alone is worth more than ten of your lives, and your family's lives, and your ancestors lives.

It's a lot like suicide bombing... that vest looks really cool and all, and the 47 hookers in paradise sounds really fun, but it really sucks when it all blows up in your face.

Quoted for awesomness.

Da fak are you on about. I agree with most of your posts, I was mostly joking. I've lived as expatriate in aforementioned areas for the last 7 years. I do what pirate /might/ do with his stolen funds. I was posting some lighthearted shit about my familiarity of the area. I'm not going to post on public forums about my intentions of killing some fool that stole (more like 1.5mil max) funds from a bunch of idiots. Just throwing the idea out there, hey someone is convicted that pirate ran to Caymans? Gimme some BTC and I'll check out your hunch. That's all. Fuck yourself if you read more into that. Self promotion is #1. You talk about cracking skulls but those people that talk aren't shit, you know I'd happily scam you and piss on your wifes face and you wouldn't do shit, you know how I know> Because you are here posting on forums how hard you are (via proxy) you aren't even man enough to own your convictions but you pass them off on on people like me. Guess what, I am who you are talking about and can tell by you posts you are just another shit talking do nothing lil bitch. Continue to post all the bad stuff that will;l happen by someone (n ot you) like you have any idea what you are talking about meanwhile alienating the very people you think you agree with.

I accept your challenge/offer.
My house is the one with the Skyline GT-R parked in front.....as I am not a 'sailing' man.

Unfortunately your sailboat won't get you here, so I hope that after paying for sex, you have enough left over to buy a Greyhound ticket to Calgary.

LOL, RolloPollyBrownShit guy put up a bounty on me today. Mods deleted it.

Why did he do that ?

Yeah.  I've seen a lot of posts disappear lately like that. So to say the threats aren't happening is probably a misguided.  You just have to be in the right place at the right time before ninja maged gets them.

you misunderstand me man, not interested in any of you guys. I'm drunk and pissed that laroux guy totally misinterpreted my post since i agree with most of what he says. not trying to stir shit and get myself in trouble, especially as I have noting invested in any of this drama. A simple offer of LEGALLY investigating someone when I have the means and opportunity leads to some bullshit drama, I expected more of him.

NO, I didn't misunderstand when you said I was full of shit in another thread and was ALL TALK AND NO ACTION.

So police report was filed right?

I would guess organizing a bitcoin meetup is quite an offense in his eyes.

He's an "Internet Gangsta" = bored kid with nothing to do

Sorry...what was your interest in this situation again ?

Nahh, I've considered it as not serious. However, one more wrong move from him and I'll press on as a tonn of bricks.

So that's a no, like I said, you're another shit talking useless bitch.

Is Trendon REALLY that desperate that he now needs to employ anonymous sockpuppets to gauge the extent of the shitstorm coming his way ?

Well in that case, NO, nobody is doing anything.....as there hasn't officially been any crime(s) committed.
He is 110% safe and in the clear. Nothing pending and no trouble headed his way.

I hope that gives you enough to report back with.

 :-\


556j has been saying that BS&T is a ponzi for months. I don't see how he could be a pirate shill now?  ??? ???

Ah Bubba, don't get pissy about it. I'm sure you are the number one bad ass mofo in the sailboat armada. I was poking fun at your statement that we now learn is drunken silliness in citing your owning a sailboat as a key differentiator supporting in your abilities as a PI. I never talked about cracking skulls, I pondered a hypothetical. If I was going to crack skulls (which I wouldn't, too messy and way too close for my preference, I prefer to reach out and touch from distance, using really good optics) the very last thing I would do is talk about it in an open forum that has pretty much been outed as being monitored by LE. I would quietly do my thing, and the first you would hear about it, is that you wouldn't hear about it.

If you were that good of a PI, you would have caught the critical flaw in the CayMEN Islands rumor, that the website in question is a bad hack job, and the location is mis-spelled. Clearly a globe-trotting raconteur like yourself would know from reading your Jimmy Buffet novels that Cayman is actually spelled Cayman, not Caymen (although intriguingly enough there are multiple Cayman Islands so Caymen would not be that wrong, but I digress, and you are drunk...)

But seriously now, put down the boat drinks, toss your anchor overboard and slow this puppy down. I'm glad you like my writing. Don't be an ignorant bitch and make silly denunciations about internet vigilantes and we will get along just fine. And don't try to compare dicks online. We would both end up lying, and probably making ourselves look stupid with a macho throw down contest. If you LEGALLY have a way to investigate... do so. All talk and no walk makes Jack a puffed up douchebag. And by the latest statement on the sum total involved here pirate is sitting on 500K btc. At an average price of around $10, before somebody started playing games with the economy, that math makes the issue about a $5,000,000 issue. Give or take, I don't care. My point is that bad people will do very bad things for w whole hell of a lot less than $5 mil. If by some chance this is just a really big fuck up that got out of control, and not a premeditated long con, pirate really ought to be looking for friends with very tall walls around their safe havens right now. Cause for this kind of jack, he is target number one. Not because some internet vigilante says so, but because that's enough money that is used in "those" kinds of transactions, that a lot of pissed off very hard monbres will be looking for his ass to withdraw their pound of flesh.

The last thing we would expect!! Brilliant!

...tumbling down the rabbit hole...  :o

This appears to be the "Make Team Pirate walk the plank" thread so I'll throw my +1 in.

Remember that everyone here has an ethical obligation to discourage current and future investors in a likely Ponzi scheme.  Not only should the investors walk the plank but anyone doing anything other than warn against Pirate should as well as they're helping to build confidence in the Ponzi for later investors.  It's not ethical to remain silent, it's not ethical to sit on the sidelines and not warn people and it's definitely not ethical to treat Pirate and BTCST as anything normal.  It doesn't matter if a user has a financial interest or not, they're ripping off their fellow Bitcoiners and need to be marooned.

Stop worrying about petty forum rules and scammer tags, there's a higher calling here.  Anyone defending Pirate or instilling confidence in BTCST needs to walk the plank and it's everyone's mutual responsibility to make sure that happens.

You're assuming that pirate has ripped off whoever he was lending the Bitcoins to when the reverse could very well be true or he could have been setting people up to be ripped off by his clients.  After all, if they just say "not gonna pay you any more, thanks for the BTC", what exactly is pirate going to do about it?  If pirate is involved with seriously nasty people, he has far more to fear from them than he'll ever have to fear from vigilante Bitcoiners should he rock their boat.  And if he hasn't ripped of those people, then they'll protect him.

$5,000,000 is not a great deal of money in the world of serious money laundering.  Bitcoin might be attractive to small time money launderers but it doesn't have the capacity to absorb the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars which serious organised crime launders.

While pirate's scheme may have been attractive to his clients, there's no reason why they wouldn't take a better deal if one came along.  I'm quite sure that other people in this community have considered tapping his market and possibly even succeeded.  His model was contingent on his clients needing increasing amounts of Bitcoin weekly and being willing to pay 10% for it, but I seriously doubt he was in a position to argue if they suddenly decided they wanted less BTC or were no longer willing to pay 10%.

Everything pirate has said could be pure bullshit.  There might never have been any clients, let alone nasty, shady ones.  He could come in here tomorrow and post that all your Bitcoins now belong to Los Zetas and you'd never know whether it was true or not - and even if it could be established to be true, are Bitcoiners really going to fuck with a drug cartel, a gang, or whatever other version of organised crime people believe pirate may have been servicing? I'll buy tickets to watch that event.   

He could also be just another opportunist who saw a chance to exploit people's greed.  He may or may not be working alone.  He won't be the last such opportunist the Bitcoin world encounters if that's the case.

pirate can write any narrative he wants right now and there's not a whole lot people can do to verify what he says in the short term.  

Well put :)

Thanks for the kind words.

Just going along with the memes. In my other posts I mention 12 noon flight to Bermuda. BTW I travel with a dog and Cayman islands are rabies free = HUGE hassle to travel there for me. Honestly my only motive is for fun. :)

I agree that anyone expecting extra consideration from an uninsured pass through is mainly in denial or trying to pass the buck. But I think it's about time for people who said they "knew what pirate was doing" to step up and either say "nah I was just fronting for pirate" or reveal the information they claimed to possess.

When the shit hits the fan the last place you want to be is standing in front of it. Thats just the way shitstorms work  :)

I really dont think lawyers are what the pirate brigade need to worry about if pirate was doing what I think he was doing. Anyone with half a brain would have avoided the whole situation not put themselves in the firing line when the inevitable happens. I dont know who made the worse decisions here, the people who thought they could get out before it collapsed or the people who setup pasthroughs knowing they would be left holding the bag if  pirate runs off to the caymen islands and sits on the beach sipping pina coladas.

tl;dr Are you really surprised that shit rolls downhill ?

You have handled the situation with integrity.

I don't think this is unreasonable.  Even if pirate spun a plausible line of bullshit about his business model, I'm interested in hearing why people were willing to trust him with large amounts of money without investigating his prior business background, references, etc.  Anyone can claim anything on the internet.  What did pirate say which convinced people that he, personally - as opposed to his business model - was both trustworthy and competent?  What evidence did people ask for of his competence and worthiness of trust? 

A plausible business model is no guarantee that someone isn't just going to run off with your funds, so I don't think that can be the only reason the "institutional" investors placed their funds with pirate (or at least I hope it's not, because it would be hopelessly naive not to research the person behind the offer).

Yeah. No one asked this noob (who has been a "Pirate is a Ponzi and you guys are shills" kinda guy from day one), but I find the threats here disturbing, especially the threats against true innocents.

Here's a post I made a bit ago:


and to further expand..

When I first joined #bitcoin-otc, I did a crapton of trading.  I did a bunch of moneypaks to btc and back.  Basically, playing market maker for whomever needed to move.  Pirate joined around the same time as me, a few days earlier if I'm not mistaken.  He was doing much the same thing.  As a result, it was inevitable for us to end up trading.  At various times, we each would come up with some big fish (or so it seemed at the time) and would help each other out with sourcing coins or finding coins good homes.  All of these trades were always online, with random people that would join #bitcoin-otc.  Eventually, pirate had some 'IRL' customers and it seemed they were larger than your typical moneypak transactions.  Eventually, I got into mining rather than trading because of a few bad moneypaks that someone screwed me with.  It seemed safer and less time intensive.  Meanwhile, pirate seemed to be branching out his trading and there were times where he needed to borrow coins.  When trading, you'd try to line up the incoming with the outgoing to minimize exchange risk and maximize profit, but then sometimes things go weird with one side or whatever and a person would end up needing to borrow.  It happened to me at times in the past so I didn't think anything of it to loan out.  Time went on, the lending became more regular and one thing leads to another and we end up here.  Pirate never really told me what he was doing but I felt I had a good grasp of what was going on.  The dip in and out of two transactions could make 10% pretty easy (5% on both sides, sometimes much more than that) so 7% actually seemed fair.

Yep, because you're generally a gigantic douche.

(for those thinking I put a hit out on him or something, it was just for a swift kick in the nuts.  Something he thoroughly deserves, but clearly not a serious offer.   Still, I'd love to see it :D).

This is about the best written and reasoned post in support of Pirate not being a ponzi that I've seen here.

There are many types of fraud, the ponzi fraud is paying out returns from new investors money. The business can start out completely above board but the moment it begins recruiting new investors so that it can take that money to pay promised returns to current investors, it becomes a ponzi scheme.

If someone takes investment money and provides it as an unsecured loan to a friend or associate knowing the associate will "invest" it in a manner to benefit the lender, that is not a ponzi but it is fraud.

If someone takes investment money claiming it is for Business A but uses the funds for Business B and C, that is not a ponzi but it is fraud.

I would love to hear this brilliant business model that I'm too closed minded or dumb to spot that allows Pirateat40 to not cutoff interest accrual upon closing. If it's high interest loans not done in a fraudulent manner how can the returns have been so consistent and how can he be so confident of repayment that he doesn't put a stop on compounding interest? Please oh wise claimants, enlighten us. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If this was the primary source of Pirate's income, wouldn't it imply that at 10% fee per trade he is doing 350k in trading per week? That's almost 2/3rds of MtGox's volume.

I never sourced my coins on gox.  When he and I traded, afaik, neither did he.  We knew large miners, etc that had coins and were looking to sell.

Any reasonable businessman would not continually borrow capital at 7% interest per week.  Reinvesting profits in his own business would be much more profitable in the long run than relying on larger and larger loans.

 If you can imagine all the investors standing on an island it looks like pirateat40 standing at the wheel of the pirate ship and the PPT operators are swabbing the decks. Now the PPT operators are claiming they were never on the pirate ship when their are pictures of them  sailing the high seas with the captain :D

It explains why gigavps went to vegas  :)

If Pirate is doing 300k worth of trades in and out of BTC per week, every week, why is it taking him so long to get back into BTC? Even if for some reason he was sitting on $5M is USD and 0BTC, you would expect after a week he should be able to have at least half that back.

There's no reasonable excuse to not start paying back lenders after 10 days.

I have not ever met Pirate IRL.  I was supposed to meet him in Vegas, but ended up sick while out there and leaving without meeting anyone but the few people I had met earlier in the week to exchange coins with.  Those parties did confirm the trades, either here or in #bitcoin-otc. 

Anyone who thinks the sell OTC trades at 10% markup was a plausible investment strategy is dumber than a box of fraking hammers.

One:
No rich idiots exist that buy products 10% over price.  Period.  Certainly not a continual supply of downright retards with deep pockets so you can unload 500K BTC a week every week into perpetuity.  I mean scope people.  We are talking about 5% of all Bitcoins ever mined (and given idle, cold, and lost accounts probably closer to 10% of all coins in active circulations).  Doing that once would be hard to believe, doing it every single week for months and months.  Are you stupid, or did you just fail elementary math?

Two:
So he can make 10% gross profit assumming he can perfectly utilize his capital.  He gives away 7% and then pays another half percent in trading & banking fees.  So he is left with 2.5%.  He does all the work, takes all the risk, dealing with clients, moving massive amounts of funds in irreversible transactions and gets the tiniest cut.  Worse if he has a slow week he is operating at a loss because his interest costs are fixed.  How dumb did you think Pirate is?  If you thought he was that stupid why would you have him handle your money?

Three:
Nobody thought it strange he never capped deposits?
Nobody thought it strange he never paid down the principal?
Nobody throght it strainge his funding requirements never changed?

Nope there just was this imaginary pool of 500K BTC worth of rich idiots.  Every week.  Not occasional but every friggin weak, forever.  These rich people just happened to only be know by Pirate and likewise never knew anyone else.  They also were totally incapable of using email or their web browser to locate other sources at less than 10% bloody markup?

Honestly anyone who thought this was the master investing plan is even more stupid then the ones who just didn't have any idea.  The fact that you guys thought this was such a great idea that you needed to keep it a secret is just sad.  Had you explained this theory I would have gladly debunked it weeks ago given our company brokers bitcoin deals we might know a little about it.

It is honestly the stupdiest explanation for the cashflow I have heard.  Hell the SR mixer idea while totally impossible is less stupid. Sorry for the rant but Christ people.   Seriously if you thought that please for the love of God hire a broker and never manage your own money ever again because I don't want to have to support you when you are 60 and on welfare due to you "investing skillz".

Okay, LoupGaroux’s posts are interesting to read and the amount of cheesy quotes is indeed overwhelming, but really? Aren’t we all been here before? Even if it actually was the whole $5m stolen, the perpetrator/s will never be romantically punished by the ‘masses’ (you’ll in fact buy conference tickets from them in a few weeks) and surely there’ll be enough ‘investors’ born to fill up all the inconvenient gaps. These types of ‘incidents’ are bound to scale up together with the project and are indeed a result (maybe the very point) of a ‘free market’ experiment. The life lesson cannot be taught by any amount of typing/talking/screaming, as all parents should know. Sometimes it is beneficial to let kids break their heads a bit. I’d like to hope, however, that the pirate40 would not become an annoying evil hero figurine or an avatar of half of new users on these forums.

You're already missing it.

Um that is why coinabul isn't moving $5M in gold a week.  Hell they probably aren't moving $5M in gold this year.

Poor execution.  Does the owner even leave mommy's basement?

If his customers can't fund even a fraction of the funds needed, why not reach out to other sources? Bitinstant is likely sitting on a pile of BTC, and since if he isn't in the negative already he should have enough USD to buy the BTC he needs, they could probably supply at least a sizable chunk that he could begin paying out the 7% accounts with to stop the bleeding.

No the only thing that is missing is your money.  It is gone because you are even stupider (if that was the theory you invested your funds on) than the ones who were just clueless.  Most of them were just gambling.  If you thought that theory made sense then please find a broker.  Please please because with investing "skills" like that you are going to need a good one.

You aren't adding anything to this conversation but personal attacks.  To the ignore you go.

The respect of someone that clueless, lost doesn't mean a whole lot.

I had more respect for you when I thought you believed it was a ponzi and were just looking to time it for max profit.  Unethical but not stupid.  This theory is just stupid.   On par with ideas like "a rich person could destroy Bitcoin by buying all the coins" but nobody was ever foolish enough to invest on that idea.

In related news Mr-10%-OTC-Trader no longer only owes his creditors ~$5 mil USD.  
It is now more than $6 mil USD and increasing at a rate of $0.75 per second.  

500K BTC * 1.07 * 1.04 * $11.00 = ~$6.1 mil USD.
So congrats are in order I guess.  All you "investors" just made another cool million (on paper)!

I think if any one were to go through D&T's posts they would find plenty of substance.

Smart people get fed up with idiots on forums just like they do in real life.

If nothing else, I think D&T has held himself in check quite admirably.

I do think it's a viable business idea on some level. I believed it at one point, mostly because I wanted to believe.

But it's the volume of BTCST plus the extraordinary interest rates (over such a long time) that make me unable to believe it.

Possible, maybe. I just don't think that is what is actually taking place. If it weren't for my new bet, I would like to be wrong.

It's also very easy for a legitimate investment scheme to slip over into the realm of ponzi. I do tend to think it was a scam from the start, and that this business idea is the only one Pirate could propagate to justify borrowing so many coins. It was only a matter of time before someone realized how simple a bitcoin ponzi scheme would be to pull off. Inevitable.

By your logic, Coinabul could pay out 10% interest a week because they charge a 20% premium.

Keep dreaming!

http://gifs.gifbin.com/112011/1322675357_pluto_dreaming.gif

No, they didn't. For starters, none of the above promised a consistent x% per week.

Thanks for the non-defensive answer.  I honestly have no idea whether pirate is a confidence trickster who planned to take the money and run all along, a ponzi operator, someone who thought he had the perfect business model but was operating out of his depth and now doesn't know how to deal with the collapse of his scheme, or something else entirely.  Maybe he's the predator some people are making him out to be, maybe he's just a guy who isn't as smart as he thought he was when it comes to making money (and both the Bitcoin world and the conventional business world are filled with such people).

What I can't do is blame pass-through operators for whatever pirate's scheme turns out to be.  People were virtually begging to be given a piece of the pirate action which was not directly available to small investors.  That the scheme went sour is not the fault of the pass-through offerers.  That some people got back more than they invested before the scheme collapsed and others didn't is also not the fault of the pass-through operators.  Nobody would be complaining about the role of the pass-through operators right now if the scheme was still profitable.  The pass-through operators didn't take people's money under false pretences - people knew it was being invested with pirate and that his venture was high risk.  You can't blame your stock-broker if the stock you chose tanks.


1 and 3 are the big warning signs for me.  Why a single, uncapped fund?  Unless he could place the ever-increasing amount of BTC in his fund at 10% every single week and the interest he was receiving was being compounded, his scheme couldn't be sustained.  But if the demand was predictable, then why weren't the loans fixed term (even if that term was short)? How was he protecting himself against a sudden decrease in demand or against someone else offering his clients a similar service for less?  How was he hedging his risk?  Were his clients repaying interest only?  If so, when was the principal due to be returned?  What allowance had he made for his clients defaulting?  Why wasn't he trying to entice the hoarders who are still sitting on large amount of BTC which barely ever move?

These are all questions to be asked the next time a similar scheme comes along - and it will.

I do think there are circumstances under which people will both buy and borrow at a premium, but when that appears to be happening on a large scale I think it's probably wise to curb one's enthusiasm and ask some difficult questions before assuming you've discovered the goose which lays the golden egg.

The theory that I've always thought for this is:

There are 50*6*24=7200 new btc per day.  If pirate wanted to control the market price, he'd need to control a certain percentage of the market.  The open deposit policy was a way to suck up those new btc.  Obviously he had to continue to expand things to cover for that, but that is probably part of the reason 1) he was lowering rates a bit (even if people argue he really wasn't) and 2) he said he didn't know how long it would go on.  Anyone that thought that 7% would continue for years is sadly mistaken. When I see the exponential formulas that people want to throw around and they're extrapolated to anything more than 18 months, I just write them off as trolling.

Out of curiosity imsaguy...
1) How do you pronounce your name? I keep pronouncing it like I'ms (or Iams, like the dog food) A Guy
2) At this point, given the long delay and minimal communication do you think Pirate will be able to pay out the rapidly increasing debt he owes as per the terms of his post (principle + interest to the hour)?

Do you really think there is a never ending line of rich fools out there lining up to buy bitcoins at over inflated prices week after week? Further,by compounding the interest they would need to increase their appetite for btc or he would need to find increasingly more and more rich fools.

Yes, saying D&T is "missing it" is pretty flippant. If that was his model:

1. Why was Pirate's appetite for more BTC seemingly insatiable, until he closed?

2. How was he able to promise consistent returns for such a long period of time?

3. Why has he not publicly stated interest compounding has ceased?

4. What is it about this claimed trading model that has left him seemingly short of quite a bit of BTC a week after closing?

1) Illinois Math and Science Academy (IMSA)

2) I've said and continue to say that I am going by the terms of the Vandroy bet which has a deadline of Wednesday if I'm not mitaken.  When the bet was made, it seemed no one had issues with the terms, so if both sides signed off on it, I should be ok with it as well.  It is frustrating to not have any information, but outside of filing legal action, there's not a lot I can do.  Most lawyers (hell, even the credit bureaus) won't touch any sort of default until at least 30 days  have passed, so it seems prudent to wait and see.  So to answer your question directly, the longer things go, the lower my expectations.

I see being 'dense' goes both ways, because I already answered 1) a few posts up.

2) I expect business growth.

3) I can just imagine the additional stink people would make if he didn't pay total the interest due on things. I know its a drop in the bucket compared to the principal. It may have also just been an oversight.  I really don't know, he hasn't told me.

4) If he sells coins to investor Y at say $10, coins that weren't really his, but coins that he borrowed off you and I, he must return the coins to us.  In the past, the coins were slowly appreciating, so once they hit $11, investor Y would sell.  Well, he announced the closure and the price tanked.  So now investor Y doesn't want to sell.  Sure, pirate's got cash he could buy coins.  We all know trying to buying a bunch of coins on gox is going ot make the price jump like a SOB so that's a terrible option.  Meanwhile, investor Y's pissed that he's taking a loss.  Perhaps the contract from pirate guaranteed a certain minimum price for X amount of days.  A whole slew of scenarios could be there.  Regardless, the sudden closure has thrown a wrench in things.  Probably an overreaction on pirate's part, but Monday morning quarterbacks always pick the right play.

I think there are more than you're willing to give credit.



Please point me to a solid number that was verified by Maged or someone else reputable that indicates just how much was actually reinvested, because AFAIK, nobody really knows that answer.

And since as of late the questions seem to be directly posed at me, I'd like to say I don't speak for Pirate, nor have I talked to Pirate in the last day.  The last time I talked with Pirate was in his IRC channel for the Q&A with everyone.

I think it's more just that you were one of the people involved with the first pass through and profess to have a basic understanding of his system. Since Pirate has seen fit to grace us with an average of 1 or 2 lines a day in IRC, you fill in in his steed.

Actually I think whoever started it is smart. Even though the premiums are high, it's pretty much the only option out there if you want to convert BTC to hard currency almost completely anonymously and avoiding the prying eyes of the tax man. It's great if... say you are a SR vendor and need some way to get tens of thousands of dollars a week without the money passing through though a bank on your end. Sell the bullion to a local dealer or oraigslist for cash money...

2) So much growth he doesn't seem to have a need to control how much inflow of investors there are? Opening up to the public with seemingly no limits or buy in rounds? I know this is an "internet" business but I thought the dotcom bubble and now facebook would have killed the idea of such growth.

3) An oversight he has never corrected, riiiiiiiight.

4) It's not sideline quarterbacking when he's the one who set out his payout rules. If anything it's amateur refereeing, heh.

There wasn't unbounded growth.  There were people that weren't ever going to invest with Pirate.  There were people that were only going to invest X with Pirate.  Still others couldn't afford to buy more coins because they ran out of funds and/or the price was goin gup past their preferred purchase point.  That only leaves the new coins from mining and obviously, that's limited as well too. 

But when he started opening up to public BTC, did he ever say no? Even something growing by leaps and bounds would need to setup some controls such as investment rounds. Perhaps he is a wizard who can plan for a completely uncapped investment flow. So far I haven't seen anything past speculation at his business model, far from the confident proclamations of "I've figured it out and you might be able to as well if you are resourceful" from some Pirate backers a while ago.

???

...mmm...Brunic, do you actually know what pirate was doing to legitimately earn 7%/week, or do you just have a theory?

I'm a little late to the conversation here, but I've done a considerable amount of reading on this matter over the last few days.  Frankly, I've yet to see any substantial information on pirate's business model posted anywhere.  I've seen many who claimed they knew what pirate was doing, but nobody provided any specifics (for the typical dubious reasons).  The most detailed info on pirate's op I've been able to find is in this post:


The above + other stuff I've read here indicates money laundering - not ponzi - to me.  Reason being that market plays/arbitrage/trading skill by pirate would only last so long.  IMO, money laundering is the only model that's sustainable for any length of time, given the returns pirate was paying.  Problems would only occur when the guy(s) with dirty money who will pay >=10% to clean it stop showing up on a regular basis.  I think that's just what happened.  To me, it's the only non-ponzi explanation that fits.

But since you claim pirate's operation has been explained on these forums ad infinitum, it should be a simple matter to point me to a post that explains pirate's legitimate operation succinctly.  Or perhaps you could spend a paragraph explaining your understanding of it.  After all, there's no reason why you or anyone else couldn't divulge their knowledge of pirate's op now, and without ambiguity, unless his op was illegal from the gitgo.

 :P

You didn't find shit.  It was in this thread about a page up.  I've already offered my guesses as to whats going on in other threads.  If you're so lazy that you want me to do the work for you, I couldn't be half assed.  My job isn't to defend pirate.  My post history is freely available and I'm sure within the last 10 pages you can find something that'll suit your fancy that you can properly distort.

I've been a pretty decent sport about answering questions as neutrally as possible and all I get for it is a bunch of trolling and people insulting my intelligence.  It isn't much encouragement to continue the dialogue.

money laundering doesn't mean what you think it means.

Depends what your idea of money laundering is.

Deposits were increasing exponetially (roughly) from start to finish, not just in the summer. As dooglus has said, exponential growth in a finite universe is impossible to sustain. It's math that killed the golden goose, and Pirate took the eggs. When the growth of compounded interested exceeded the net growth of deposits, Pirate pulled the plug.

Either it's not a key detail or Pirate was lying when he said gpumax was unrelated (I think he was lying...).

Sorry, I wasn't addressing you.  I was addressing Brunic.  I guess I should've been clearer about that.

But there's no need to get in a twist about anything, since I stated that your post was the only substantial info I've been able to find on pirate's business model.  And FYI, I read the quote of your post a couple of days ago in another thread.  

Funny, I thought I was complementing you.

 :'(

EDIT:  nope, I'm wrong.  I did read imsaguy's post in this thread.  and nowhere else at no other time.  Time to stop drinking I guess.   :-\

I think gpumax is brilliant as a standalone, legitimate business.

But if BTCST is a scam, then I think it's probably involved somehow.

BTCST already ended badly.

So just a theory, then.  Thanks for responding.   :)

Definitely not trolling - although I do admit I often come off as a troll.  I guess I should work on that.   ;D

The theory involving pirates business model depends on there being enough people who wish to bypass rules and regulations on moving cash around. I dont consider wanting financial privacy as money laundering even though the government might. I would say that if hes involved in doing that theres is probably only so long you can before it gets noticed.

Didn't pirate say he's made 30k BTC or $300.000 USD in profits from his scam? I'm sure the IRS would love to know about this.

If it were a scam, he'd have made $5 milllion off of it, and seems the FBI would be more interested than the IRS.

Fuck the IRS.

Enemies can be friends in times like this.

It is a scam.  Get ready to pay out.

Indeed. In Korea, irregardless of shady business practices, local codes, or various unlawful activities, no one will touch you if you're paying your taxes.

True, tax avoidance also makes sense as a non-ponzi explanation for pirate's ability to continue paying 7%/wk.  If that's the case, pirate must be very persuasive with well heeled folk in meatspace.  IMO, it's unlikely.

But whether his customer base was composed of people looking to clean money or avoid taxes ultimately doesn't matter.  Both are illegal.  But  at least if it's one of the two, depositors might have a chance of getting their principal back.

Honestly, I hope one of the above is the case.  Bitcoin doesn't need another black eye right now.

True, but the burden of proof for tax evasion is much lower. Just ask Al Capone.

Knowing how the government works there is probably a snitch line to ring and report people.

How many BTC did he actually pay back out? Is there some public full accounting of transactions I'm missing?

What's so great about GPUMax exactly? Other than inspiring your wet dreams..


http://www.thestranger.com/binary/e759/1281478044-donaldduckerect.jpg

Except I'd.guess most reinvested the interest, and didn't actually realize all those paper gains.

We also don't know how much of his debt he himself holds. So some portion of his interest payments may have just been to himself.

sure, only compound interest make you rich , and the most of us want to become rich by bitcoins...

and then less than 12 hours later in the same thread.


Epic fail.

That's only the case if the BTC price crashes. If it skyrockets whilst his funds are in USD instead, he's not just out part of his business value, there is no upper limit on his potential liability to his lenders. That's... probably something he would want to avoid.

Well, ponzi schemes tend to do that in their early stages. I'm sure everyone here has seen that webpage about Currin Trading (http://www.geocities.ws/currintrading/) by now? If he were to allow big investments early on, one big fish withdrawing would be enough to sink the scheme. It's not until later stages when the ponzi's demand for new money becomes voracious.

Suppose you're a ponzi operator and it's far too early to scuttle the scheme yet, but people have asked for withdrawals you can't afford to pay right now. What do you do? (See also page 8 of this document (http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/04/08/Permapave.pdf), from a proven Ponzi called Perma-Pave.)

Sorry, but that is not what is implied by your question.

I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not express yourself properly as anyone who has read your posts can tell that your "wright"ing is not the best.
But then there is this awkward little bit from the same thread:

followed momentarily by:

Stop hiding behind Theymos. Theymos never claimed that he understood the business model and it is definitely not a ponzi. Quite the opposite. Theymos did not attack anyone on the forums who dared warn others that it might be a ponzi. You on the other hand have a well established track record.


I have indeed. Have you read any of it?

Goat, you are wiggling too much. Simply answer these simple question honestly if you capable of that.

- have you  managed a proxy for an opaque investment that has exhibited all the classical signs of a ponzi scheme?
- have you profited or expected to profit from prolongation and proliferation of a ponzi scheme?
- have you  owed a duty of care and fiduciary duty to anyone who gave you money?
- have you provided adequate risk disclosures?
- have you implied at any time that pirate is not operating a ponzi scheme?
- have you implied at any time that you know some magical/secret biz model behind pirate operation?
- have you implied at any time that you know true identity of pirate?
- have you promoted investment into and lent credibity (or false credibility) to a ponzi scheme in any way?
- have you tried to silence, spam, mock, attack those who publicly warned about the risks of investing into such schemes?
- ought you to know better?
- what is you your real name and address for service of legal papers?

These are simple questions. Answer them if you dare.

You met pirate, claimed to understand his operation and helped funnel money into the scam through your PPT.
Say what you want, and I have to give you kudos on paying out your insured PPT quickly, but it's difficult to look at the pictures of the pirate posse in Vegas and conclude that you're all totally innocent, particularly given how that meetup was used to legitimise BS&T...

To help you further bury your knowledge that it was a Ponzi scheme. To help you later deny "really knowing" it was a Ponzi scheme. And for a variety of non-rational reasons.

To help avoid losing significant BTC on your bonds. To help you convince yourself that your money was safe, which is what you wanted to believe. And for a variety of non-rational reasons.

It is really astonishing how Ponzi schemes make people think and act. People who know it's a Ponzi scheme will lie about the scheme to friends and family to get them to invest and will convince themselves that they're helping them. It's pretty stunning really .. and sad. You've been reading the forums. You know how it is.

People who have money in a Ponzi scheme often maintain a kind of split personality where to some extent they know for sure it's a Ponzi scheme and to some extent they hope it isn't and can act like they don't know it is. It's quite strange and makes otherwise reasonable people do the very strangest things.

You know something. But you think it's in your interest not to know it. So you convince yourself you're not really sure. But deep down, you are sure. But you have a kind of plausible deniability that you build up in your own mind. I'm sure a lot of people reading this are finding that it resonates, and I hope a lot of them don't like that in themselves and try to learn something from this mess.

Or double down. Whatever. It's up to each of you.

In case you missed it Goat. 

Seems to me ppl r trying to find a scapegoat and Goat just has an appropriate name. Everyone who gave money to Pirate ought to blame only himself.

If you hire a hit man to kill your boss, you ought only to blame yourself. But everyone else can blame the hitman too.

If you invested in Pirate, you probably deserve some blame. If you encouraged others to invest in Pirate, you probably deserve some blame. If you lied a "white lie" to help people invest in something you thought would really help them but should have known was a Ponzi scheme, you deserve some blame. Etcetera.

 ::)

Took about 30 sec to find that one, there's many more.

Even in the long-term and with such a huge volume??

1. Some guys on BTC-e stated they earned good money using Pirate scheme and withdrew money just in time.
2. Noone here said "I'm an idiot coz didn't withdraw my coins before the closure of Pirate's scam".
3. Almost everyone here makes Goat a scapegoat.

All this looks incorrect. From the correct point of view it would be:

1. Some guys got coins of other guys with Pirate's help.
2. "Victims" of the scam should say "I'm an idiot, next time I'll be smarter".
3. Goat shouldn't be the only scapegoat. Add here the others, everyone who gave coins to Pirate to support his scam should be blamed.

PS: Goat, perhaps u r not interested in my opinion, but I'd like to say that u should ignore accusations in this thread.

PPS: I repeat for everyone - blame everyone who gave coins to Pirate, especially if they got profit with it.

Er?  So you would only be trying "to stop anyone from expressing their opinion" if you said something like "and if anyone else who hasn't expressed their opinion yet thinks its a Ponzi, shut yo' mouth."

Hairsplitting a bit much, aren't we?

OK, so what is it? I'm honestly curious about what wrinkle turns the madness D&T describes into a totally winning business plan. What's to lose? Pirate's shutting down anyway, and even though many continue to deny it was ever a Ponzi scheme, you know that hope is fading every day.

Scroll back a few pages where someone asked me the same question and I replied.

You talked about OTC trading with 5% margins on both sides, and then some whales came in.  Please don't assume I'm Micon--I read these threads.

What did D&T get wrong?

No, after that...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=103623.msg1139115#msg1139115

There hasnt always been lots of exchanges to choose from. No that long ago we had to do the majority of bitcoin trades OTC simply because the infrastructure didnt exist. Pirate just discovered how to get a lot of liquidity doing that I imagine.

We do/are. Check post #12 in this thread. Goat is taking a lot of heat because he was very vocal in trying to get new investors during July, he claimed to know what pirate was doing and suggested it wasn't a ponzi, and now he thinks he can pretend he never said those things and has no liability. That he thinks him and Theymos are a similar situation is laughable when it's pretty much the exact opposite. If you use logic he jsut plus his ears and goes *la la la, can't hear you* or uses some wanna be lawyer talk to try and wiggle his way out of it. But the people he's arguing with (other than me) are quite a bit smarter than himself and he keeps making a fool of himself. It's kinda of like watching a quadriplegic fight a MMA champion. After he gets smeared he declares himself the champion and struts around. He deserves all the shit flung at him in this thread and then some.

OK.  I've read this and the post imsaguy cited again, and I do not see where D&T went wrong.

The business model is selling large numbers of coins above exchange rates repeatedly, right?  If not, what is wrong with this description?

You mean you still don't?! Seriously?

What did I lose exactly? In fact I think most of the vocal people in this thread have nothing to lose in all of this. While you have very much to lose if you happened to be implicated as a coconspirator, as you should be.
At the beginning of this thread you were asking people to quote when did you claim it wasn't a ponzi and called p4man a slanderous fool. You go back and forth on your words and think you can pretend you never said or did things Then we dig up your old posts and you insult everyone that speaks out against you from that point.

I say burn all those fuckers at the stake.... or give them a ruler thrashing they will never forget :P

Wow, this is like arguing against evolution denialists who continue to insist that no matter how much argument and evidence you produce, until and unless you provide the unspecified evidence they insist on, nothing has been shown.

For about the fifteenth time: Every legitimate investment provides investors with some way to know that their funds were actually legitimately invested in something that has a reasonable expectation of making a profit and provides them some way to know that claimed profits or losses were actually the result of legitimate investment activity and not manufactured. It provides an assessment of the risk factors that affect the investment and some way for the investor to at least begin to assess the level of risk.

Maybe this will teach people not to lend or borrow money anymore.  It does not matter if it was a ponzi or not, there is a lot of risk in lending and borrowing.

Goat I didn't know I would literally have to spell it out for you, but I never had a penny invested into anything to do with pirate, ever. It was painfully obvious to both you and me what that operation was since day one. Rather than trying to profit off it like you, I mostly ignored it. Sometimes tried to warn people, watched you turn up the propaganda machine to get more marks, and now calling you out on it and you don't like it. Boohoo.

No. People... People never change.

Do you really think it matters whether people knew that this was a Ponzi scheme or wondered precisely what type of illegitimate investment it was?

The argument that it must be a Ponzi scheme is complex and nuanced. But the argument that it is indistinguishable from a Ponzi scheme is trivial.

Rational people should treat a car the same way they treat something indistinguishable from a car. So as far as culpability for actions goes, it makes no difference.

This is where the explaination seems odd to me. The advantage that supposed IRL buyers have in buying through pirate is that he can give them a fixed price (say+10%) without changing the exchange price. Ok, so far so good.

Because he pays 7% every week he has to turn over these coins in order to continually make the payments. You explain this away with alleged market manipulation, but when you look at the market numbers, they don't seem sufficient to cycle through 500k bitcoins every week or two. Moreover we're back to a mystery--rich clients can't buy thousands of coins without moving the market, but somehow pirate can--repeatedly. Ads to this the difficulty of moving MILLIONS of sollars to exchanges each month, and I think you'll agree this theory seems as implausible as D&T harshly said it was.

Or am I still missing something?

So we strip away the claims, and all that's backing up "you're already missing it" is a sarcastic non sequitur?

Are you trolling now? Or are you seriously saying that you need me to provide evidence that Pirate is indistinguishable from a Ponzi scheme? You know what Pirate said, right. You know what Ponzi schemes are, right? If you think they're distinguishable, why not just tell me what distinguishes them?

I'm arguing that something is absent that would be trivially identifiable if it existed. If you want to maintain that it exists, just point it out.

I mean, I can do a point by point comparison of what we know about Pirate and what we know about Ponzi schemes, but I've already done that at least five times. I don't see the point in doing it again.

Honestly, I think you've switched to trolling at this point. Or you are very seriously in denial.

Good point.  I think many here are so invested in the "ponzi proposition" that they're refusing to consider other possibilities.

At the same time, it would be great if you could spell out your understanding of what pirate was up to (as long as it was legal ofc).  What is there for you to lose at this point?

Ponzi or not, there's no legal activity that I can think of that would allow paying such returns for any length of time. 

Lol, pirate himself said in an IRC log that he knew what it looked like from the outside.

Trolls be trollin'.

I agree, D&T's image is no more or no less than it was before someone said he was now to be thought of lesser for his postings..


 That's the exact business model. It has been the only known part of the business model since day one. We keep seeing posters make comments like, "It was so easy, I figured it out in seconds". No shit, Sherlocks, that is the extreme obvious conclusion. And the same one most of us drew from the get go. Now, if you can wrap your brains around the HUGE gaping hole in the model, then you will become instant millionaires! And that is, just how exactly would you reacquire coins + 7% without paying more than you just sold them for?
Private sellers?
 Sure, we could possibly find sellers who would want to avoid the same pitfall as the buyers would face making large buys/sells on the open market. But, who in their right mind would be a seller at a locked in, reduced rate when they can instead earn 7% on that BTC invested, or slow sell it as the market trend was and has been UP? (partly due to lots of liquid BTC being pulled into said investment, removing potential sellers from the market)
Strategic Market Buys?
 Yep, you bet. It is easy to move the market a bit to stagger in buys without jogging the market up. The cavaet however is two fold. One, the market trend is up. Two, the market movement is of a gain/loss volume that is not large enough to absorb more than a few K BTC without still moving it. Meaning, the more you need to purchase over a few thousand worth, the more you will find you have to manipulate the perceived trend, utilizing greater volumes of currency than you can afford to keep illiquid and still have inventory to sell to buyers and pay in interest.
Buy them from gpuMAX yourself
 Surely, this must be the answer. Except that in order to purchase shares from gpuMax and in turn acquire the bitcoins from the pools mined at, you have to pay for them upfront with BTC.. Even if we consider that we can manipulate the per share cost to be within 20%(a very conservative number as it is usually more like 35%+) and we can convince buyers that 27%+ is still cheaper than the alternative market route. We are then limited by the output capacity of gpuMAX. This total output was observed a few months back(sorry for lack of citation) and was roughly 1TH~. 1TH will produce ~2884 (http://tpbitcalc.appspot.com/?difficulty=2440642.6069&hashrate=1000000&exchangerate=11.11&bitcoinsperblock=50.00&rigcost=500.00&powerconsumption=200.00&powercost=0.10&investmentperiod=355) per week. We could even consider that the 1TH, if utilized at it's maximum Pool Hopping capacity may be able to produce an extra 20%. This would provide an additional 576.8 coins. For a total of 3460.8 coins purchased at a cost of 3460.8 coins. At that rate it is a zero sum benefit as the extra 20% of coins acquired are eaten by the 20% cost per share. We also assume we can negate the 10% fee since we control it. This is overly optimistic as that fee would likely be consumed in hosting and operator costs but I've left it out to attempt to give us the most benefit in BTCST's favor.
Unknown Method to buy coins below market price
 There could even be some uber secret method to buy large amounts of coins at or below market price. I can think of a few methods, all of which involve hedging other markets (I.E., S R) and have a HUGE risk of being negated by price movements. This secret sauce being unknown is what kept my coins away from this venture. Maybe some of you thought of this one too and it was very obvious to you. I however, could think of nothing and Pirate was unwilling to divulge this piece of the business model.

I could not stop laughing long enough to sum up a meaningful response to place here.  :-*

ITT I have learned that Goat is greedy, stupid, amoral, and a liar.

We all did exactly what you just did. We considered it, and then rejected it as completely implausible.

But even so, it doesn't matter. If something is indistinguishable from a Ponzi, and most likely a Ponzi, you should treat it like a Ponzi. If you have a gun that looks like it's loaded, you should probably treat it like it's loaded.

That's exactly what brings an economy to a screeching halt.

There is nothing legally gray either about fraud or property rights.

I really hope you're just trolling Goat. :)

Goat, as your attorney, I advise you to just eat the damn pills and leave it at that.  8)

http://i2.listal.com/image/1959110/936full-fear-and-loathing-in-las-vegas-screenshot.jpg

We are definitely in Bat Country now.....

I believe the point of the OP is that the large piles of gold accumulated by pirate drew in accomplices, who accepted some guilt in helping to dupe more greedy fools.  The responses of said accomplices (denial) only show that there are lessons being learned here on both sides:

1) The lenders are learning the psychological effect of piles of gold (i.e. greed).  Namely, it can make people do stupid stuff that results in losses.  It's an ancient story but if you don't know it, you might get bit.  It's ok to trust people anonymously but if something seems to good to be true, step back.  You don't need that shit.  Enjoy your wealth, don't sweat all day and risk it all in the hope to make it larger.  Careful or you wind up like gollum.  

2) The borrowers and accomplices are learning the same lesson.  It doesn't really feel that great to steal candy from babies after all does it.   I'd rather have 100 coins and not a care in the world than 1000 coins and a bunch of trolls on my ass every day nibbling at my karma.  Live and learn.    

There will always be people needing to learn these lessons.  Bitcoin is just a new way to learn them :)  

One more point:  did Matthew actually put any money on the table?  

No.  He has stated he will payout if he loses but hasn't escrowed any of the 10K BTC he wagered.

An
And we will need the cocaine... and acapulco shirts

He hasn't even proven he controls enough coins to pay out, despite being asked to multiple times.

He's ruined on this forum/community if he doesn't.

He's pretty much staked his whole reputation on it so even if he doesn't pay, everyone still gets their pound of flesh.

He was trying to earlier today in IRC. I only glanced in once in awhile, but apparently he was having issues with downloading the blockchain, then sent to a different computer who's wallet didn't have the blockchain in order to sign a message, and has to download it there as well.

It is ironic how Bitcoin is being destroyed by idiocy of its users. I wonder what Satoshi thinks when he reads threads about guys falling for Pirate's scam.

On a side note - when is Pirate supposed to pay out? I must sell my btcs until then.

Why is bitcoin being destroyed by that scam (or fail; since nobody knows what's really is?)?

If anything history has taught us that these big scam's always eventually make us stronger.


Look at the Mtgox Hack of last summer... people were saying Bitcoin was dead and gone when the price crashed to $2 but it made a very strong come back and the network is more secure than ever.


When Pirate closed down shop the Bitcoin value was almost cut in half (from $15-$7.50) however in only what a week's time has recovered  very nicely in a much shorter amount of time than the last big disaster.

Not only in this community but also IRL, AFAIK people know his identity and more or less where he lives.
I wonder what has gone wrong or was he really that stupid to run a ponzi scheme? I will retract my words if it proves to be otherwise but so far it seems there is little doubt that it's a pyramid.

Duck fallacy!

http://blogs.falmouth.k12.ma.us/simplysuzy/files/2009/10/duckrabbit.jpg

If someone was selling pitchforks for BTC, they could make a killing (snicker) right now .

That is what THEY want you to think an economy needs.  There is no problem investing money into projects rather than loaning money out.  Also, borrowing money to build businesses or to finance a lifestyle is adding more risk than is necessary.  Most businesses fail because they borrow too much money, don't have a decent income stream, and then can't make the interest payments.  Start small, build your income up and that company would be in a better financial situation than a competitor that is swimming in debt.

People, governments, and societies can't borrow their way to prosperity.

He's on a boat u know ..... and on 12 different airplanes..... (he even has a commercial for this here on bitcointalk) :D

*that was not meant to harm Goat in any way*

hooo, oohhh ohhh ohh, ho hohooo ohhhh maannnn, those weren't pills your attorney just gave you, Goat...

http://distilleryimage0.s3.amazonaws.com/c20fd7a42acc11e1a87612313804ec91_7.jpg

So what is it you know about pirate's op that causes you to reject the possibility of some other non-ponzi scheme, like money laundering or tax avoidance?  (not trolling, just curious) :)

Purely hypothetical...but it seems to me that if one runs in certain circles, one would know plenty of people willing to pay 90, 80, or even 70 cents on the dollar to clean/hide their money.  Maybe I'm missing something, but a steady stream of dirty funds wanting to be cleaned would certainly allow pirate someone to pay his 7%/week by running a BTC laundromat - no ponzi necessary.  Further, I think running a laundering scheme via BTC would be pretty durn complex...i.e., it couldn't be unwound quickly/easily/without significant loss if something unexpected occurs.


Hey, I'm all about the "if it walks/talks/tastes/smells like a X, then it is a X" line of reasoning; it's a great rule of thumb that has served me well.  But by definition, rules of thumb are not axiomatic.

Again, I'm not trolling or even trying to be argumentative.  In fact, if someone held a gun to my head and said "Ponzi or not ponzi....decide or I'll shoot!", I would immediately choose ponzi - whether the gun was loaded or not.  Thing is, the more I feel like I'm about to become convinced of something, the more I try to challenge my own assumptions (as long as no one's holding a gun to my head).  Since I don't really trust myself to do this on my own, I seek outside help.  No other place to do that but this forum, and I fully expect to get flamed, labelled a troll, or otherwise marginalized in the process.  Especially on this forum when emotions are running so high.

In this case, my process has led me to the conclusion that it is in no way certain pirate was/is running a ponzi.  I see no hard evidence that tips the balance towards ponzi vs some other shady alternative like laundering/tax avoidance/etc.  Joel, if you or some other smart mofo can show me the error in my position, all the better for me.   ;D

To be sure, I see no compelling argument at all that the operation was conducted legally.  If someone who claims to know what pirate was doing would care to offer an explanation to the contrary, I would gladly change my mind.  Again, if there was nothing illegal going on, there's no reason why anyone who knew the nature of pirate's op couldn't share it with the community now (given that the op is shuttered).

Just so no one has any ideas about any bias on my part: I've NEVER invested or bought BTC.  I currently have a few BTC in a wallet somewheres that I earned via mining a long time ago.  I think bitcoin has potential, but only if/when it's used as a medium of exchange beyond the current pitiful level.  When that happens, all the drama related to these "investment" scams will become largely irrelevant to the broader BTC world.


Really?!?  Say it aint so!  But as Vladimir pointed out, using BTC as a vehicle to facilitate a criminal enterprise doesn't change the legality of the overall operation one little bit.


Har!  I mean aarrgh!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3HnXd9r-SB4/TUyk9SCYiOI/AAAAAAAAAAU/oEC1reMdrbs/s350/penguinpiratearghLOGO.jpg

So you're saying unethical is preferable to stupid.  Thanks for admitting you feel this way.  I will be sure to avoid doing business with you in the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98958txVSrE

Much more respect for you now that I know you're not I'm "something awful" guy.

He said no by lowering interest rates, like a free market business should.  Too bad the FUD masters incited the herd to stampede for the exit :-\.

Oh noes you got me notme; I am shady.   That is why you won't find a single person with an unresolved complaint (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90866.0).   Feel free to take it that way and not do business with us.  

Then again we don't offer pie in the sky 3400% APR so I doubt you would be interested anyways.

Still why so grumpy?  Since I wrote that last post you "investors" have locked in another $300,000 or so in profits!  
What are you going to buy with your share?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P-gDZmFnTQ

Naive and stupid people got fucked by a scammer, but it's not their nor the scammer's fault. It's the fault of those who warned them.

Fuck logic. Let's use emotions instead!

+1
At first I thought he was just a little slow on the uptake, but right now I have no option but to believe that he realised that he can either come out of this looking like a scammer (if he knew it was a ponzi and encouraged others to invest) or like an idiot. He went with idiot, but is overplaying his hand if you ask me. If you really are that stupid IRL you are virtually guaranteed to do yourself an injury before reaching adulthood. That's how evolution works.

None of these require borrowing funds at way above fiat market rates over anything but the very shortest time frames. None of these require taking the huge exchange rate risks that Pirate takes by having debt denominated in an unstable currency. None of these work if your cash flow rate is forced by these kinds of exponentially increasing interest payments. Basically, if you can afford to borrow money at 3,000+%, your first priority would be paying down that debt.

The idea that he had some business that was so profitable that paying 3,000% was doable translates into an argument that Pirate had so much money, he could afford to needlessly give it away to people. And the people he picked to be the beneficiaries, for some reason, are people who would invest in something that looks exactly like a Ponzi scheme.

If you put your keys in your desk drawer, there's always a possibility someone moved them. Normally, we ignore this possibility because the odds of it happening are low and the affect it has is small. However, if my life depended on the keys being there, I'd probably check them. For unlikely events, you can assign a rough probability and ignore them unless you have some situation where their affect is dramatic.

If I had to assign a probability to Pirate being something other than a Ponzi scheme, I'd make it less than 1%. Unless I'm dealing with something that has an affect by more than a factor of 100+, I can ignore this possibility. If I was going to make some decision where I'd be killed if Pirate wasn't running a Ponzi scheme, then I'd have to consider the possibility that he's not. I have yet to encounter a situation where I can't ignore that possibility.

Yeah, because the only bump he hit was that far into it... until just that point, he didn't need to adjust inflows of capital at all. Oh and is his completely legitimate enterprise still offering compounding interest while shutting down? That's the most mind boggling part, he admits he doesn't have the BTC to pay it all out yet doesn't announce interest of 0%.

Interesting you blame FUD for a stampede, didn't seem like the attitude of Pirateat40 skeptics changed much at all in intensity this whole time. Just maybe it was the opaque and seemingly unsustainable nature of Pirateat40's offer that created an easily spooked customer base.

What's with putting your text above the quote?

Pirate did at one point pay interest every 3 days instead of 7.

Question:
Now that the fraud has finally collapsed and BS&T has defaulted on all its obligations, are you planning on making a public apology for your role?

Yes, some people have. (1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.msg854918#msg854918), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.msg855012#msg855012), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77457.msg862125#msg862125))


The actual reason is explained in this scientific paper (http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/0022-3514.77.6.1121).

Here's a big thumbs up to the so called "bankers" as well as to the rest of the citizen finance Doolittle Brigade. Well done fellas, great treasure awaits.

+1

This is an especially terse and lucid explanation of why it makes no sense to pay so much for lending, even if you did have a fabulously profitable business that could cover it.

Pirate's debt is denominated in BTC and his interest obligations are denominated in BTC.  I don't see how an "unstable currency" is a problem, as long as you make certain assumptions.

If pirate has a source of dirty capital willing to be cleaned at 70 cents on the dollar per week, it's a simple matter for him to pay "investors" 7% per week out of the 30%/week he earns.  Since he must pay interest on his BTC debt in BTC, all he has to do is be a net purchaser of BTC over the long term.  And when all his "investors" never withdraw squat, he can defray BTC purchases in the short term and be even more wildly profitable.

Since the scheme doesn't require borrowed BTC to sustain itself, why would pirate need any investors at all?  Keeping BTC prices stable limits his exchange rate exposure.  Controlling the exchange rate of an otherwise volatile currency is a good thing if you're planning on flushing a lot of $ in and out of BTC.

Consider (if you will) the following:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5CvU3ybiFRI/TT37168gySI/AAAAAAAAAno/PiIfcSGL77E/s1600/twilight%252Bzone.jpg

• You are a BTC sophisticate
• You are able to move large amounts of coin OTC (off exchange)
• You know a guy who knows some dude who's brother in law generates $1M/week in dirty money
• Guy's dude's brother in law will take $0.70 on the dollar to clean his money
• You see an opportunity to earn 1/.7 per week

but

• Your OTC customer base can't handle 100% of guy's dude's brother in law's volume
• Cleaning guy's dude's brother in law's money via the exchanges exposes you to more xrate risk/fees

however

• BTC exchanges are (relatively) illiquid/thinly traded - therefore easily manipulated
• If you can control enough coins, you can control BTC price

but you aints gots enough coins to control BTC price, so

• Offer 7%/week on bitcointalk.org marketplace for large deposits
• Deposits roll in; you now control enough coin to control BTC price
• xrate risk to launder guy's dude's brother in law's money is now minimized
• You enjoy the additional financial benefits of being the only elephant on the BTC dance floor

then

• Babies start screaming about how you won't take their candy, but you don't need any more coin to control BTC price
• Eventually decide that accepting babies' candy is ultimately good for business
• Farm out admin overhead for baby accounts to proxies

Rinse/repeat/vacation in Vegas

_________________________________

Look, I don't claim the above scenario reflects reality - so don't respond to it as such.  It's merely my latest thought experiment to figure out how BTCST might not be a ponzi.

Critiques welcome.   ;D

Say the price of BTC doubles. Now, Pirate's customers need half as much BTC as they did before. Yet Pirate still has to pay the same amount of interest. Does he now double his customer base?

why?

that assumes their investment was denominated in USD.

as with my 1800 BTC shakaru debt, the value of the coins in USD was irrelevant. To me the debt was always 1800 BTC.

whether USD/BTC triples or halves... i just want the coins.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98684.msg1130274#msg1130274 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98684.msg1130274#msg1130274)

Close to Washington ? 

Because half as many coins do whatever it is they need to do. Whether they're buying drugs or laundering money, they now need half as much BTC to do it.

No, it doesn't. It's independent of what denomination is used to measure the value of investments.

You may think it doesn't affect you because you loan to someone a number of bitcoins and just expect a number of bitcoins back. And they may think it doesn't affect them because they deal with others in bitcoin amounts. But somewhere at the bottom there will be someone who cares what bitcoins are worth. There just isn't any enterprise that can operate in terms not connected to an amount of value either directly or indirectly other than by pure hoarding. And there's nothing you can hoard that will give you a significant net positive return over bitcoins. Value fluctuations ripple through the chain with bitcoins just as they do with dollars. And right now, bitcoin is much more volatile.

bitcoins are worth 1 BTC each.

In a Ponzi, every cent of profit the "clever" people make is money that other investors lose. The people that invest in the scheme are guaranteed to lose money on average no matter how clever they all are, because it's a Red Queen's Race - the sooner everyone pulls out, the sooner the scheme collapses and the sooner they'd have had to have pulled out in order to avoid losing their shirts in the collapse.

That's why - if you're an utterly unethical, greedy scammer - it's to your benefit to convice as many of the other investors as possible that it's not a ponzi, that they're idiots who just don't understand the scheme if they think that it is, that anyone who claims otherwise is an evil troll slandering the good name of the scheme's operator, and so on and so forth. Sound familiar?

In my hypothetical model, pirate has two sets of customers: The whale(s) who give him money to be cleaned, and his BTC depositors who expect 7%/week on their BTC balance.  The former don't want ANY bitcoins, they simply want to turn their dirty $ into clean $ as quickly as possible.  The latter only want their interest credited to their account weekly (and many never make any withdrawals).

If the price of BTC doubles, his whale customers care not.  Pirate's obligation to them is in dollars - and at 70 cents on their dollar.  He just buys/sells half the amount of coin with their money.  He still earns 30% USD in the process.

On the depositor side, pirate's 7% BTC interest obligation simply costs him 2X the USD it would if the BTC/USD price remained stable.  His 30% cut of the whale money easily covers this exposure.  If pirate's depositors make no withdrawals after the price doubling, his cash flow is unaffected.  He simply records a liability on his books...a liability that disappears if BTC prices drop to their previous level.

But guess what?  BTC/USD price never doubles in the near term, because pirate controls BTC/USD price!

I would have thought posts like this are out of fashion.

Please explain why someone making 30% would need to borrow any money at all after the first few weeks.

I loathe that it got brought up, but basically, the price wasn't dropping, so his liability wasn't magically dropping.  He never claimed to be making 30%, instead only confessing to something like 10%. When you factor in the 7% on the btc side, that leaves 3%.  Perhaps he thought growing was worth the continued debt load.

Even I will admit 30% is just stupid/crazy.

This model for Pirate has already been refuted. If this was his model, his number one priority would be getting rid of his high-interest debt. Since he was actually acquiring such debt as quickly as he could, this translates into another version of, "Pirate has some secret business strategy that makes so much money, he can afford to give tons of it away, and he just happens to like giving money away to people whose investment strategy is picking things that look exactly like Ponzi schemes."

Dilution. You would want to dilute both the dirty money with cleaner money as well as dilute the investigative resources of whoever is after you.

Bernie Madoff unfortunately stole the spotlight from Bernie Ebbers.

And studying the scams of Bernie Ebbers is way more educational.

I wonder why didn't Pirate offer, say, 2 or 3% a week (which is still a lot) would still warrant him a lot of ''investors'' and maybe he wouldn't run into these troubles... not to mention he would look a bit more credible and could keep more for himself. But maybe there is something more to this.

If you want to dilute you have to rotate the money. Sitting on the same funds for 6 months (and thus owing 10x the principal) doesnt really help

Heh, I've never been very fashionable...except for a small period of time during the early 80s.

http://www.simplyeighties.com/resources/boy-george_80s.jpg



OK.  If you need to stabilize the BTC/USD exchange rate, and you don't want to spend your own money buying enough BTC to control the market, you borrow the BTC.  In order to attract enough BTC investment, you have to offer a significantly higher ROR than other borrowers in the market, so you offer 7% (but only actually pay ~6%).  Sure, paying off your lenders with all the money you make is an option in the future, but doing so puts you long in BTC, and maybe you don't want that.  Remember, you're a money launderer.  You never risk your own money for anything.

As I stated earlier, I'm playing devil's advocate with these little theories I've been posting.  Just trying to hammer at the ponzi argument a little to see how well it stands up.  My best guess at this point is that while BTCST may not have started as a ponzi, it eventually became one.  Of course it's all academic at this point.

Anyways, thanks for all your replies to my unfashionable posts!   ;)

I'm not grumpy.  I broke even, my pass through customers made a handsome profit, and I got kudos for paying my customers out from my own pocket.  On top of that Matthew will owe me 200 BTC and Pirate may yet do a partial payout.  I've got nothing to complain about, just thought your reasoning was odd and decided to point it out.

true that. little kids know that.

e: typo

Others have already debunked this business plan based on the plain unnecessary costs of choosing to lend money at 3400%/year interest when something like 10%/year interest is much better choise.

However that is not the only argument to debunk this business plan.

The problem is that maybe you looked at the 30% profit of selling the coins and thought that when it is bigger number than the 7%/week interest, then the business is making money. Well it is not. The 30% profit is a one-time profit of selling the coins, but the 7%/week interest keeps on running till infinity until the debt is cleared. The coins that pirate has sold still remain as coins that pirate has lended and he needs to pay 7% for them on this week, another 7% the next week and 7% the week after that and pretty soon the whole 30% one-time profit is eaten and pirate has massive problems keeping paying the interest with no new profit in sight with those coins he has long sold. If you think that pirate solves the problem with new customers for more coins and pirate then lends new money to sell them that means running the traditional "running a massive loss but making it up in the volume" business plan.

I cannot think any other solution to the problem but pirate needs to start rotating his entire capital. Not just new money, but everything also from the beginning. Use the obtained cash to buy massive amounts of coins and sell them at profit again. This might work if pirate would rotate his entire lended capital every 2 weeks raking in new profits every 2 weeks.

However there are big problems in this sceme as well. The primary motivation to all this is money laundering, right? Typically money laundering works in an trivially normal established business which does not raise any eyebrows if somebody is caught involved in that. Additionally the volume of the global business must be so huge that the laundered money does not blip on the radar.

Now imagine that pirate needs to rotate his entire capital of 500k BTC ( or whatever ) in every 2 weeks. Annually it means that pirate would need to buy at annual level about 12500k BTC and sell them to the buyer which needs then to sell them in some place so that the fiat money coming from the end looks like it is plain normal vanilla money with nothing suspicious ( Where could he do that? ). 12500k BTC means USD125M money flow for pirate to buy coins with and then somebody to cash out. Sounds slightly nontrivial and if IRS gets hold of the wind, mr. pirate might be in trouble explaining where is he getting money to buy USD125M worth of bitcoin every year.

Somebody could think this whole business plan sounds ludicrous.

The exactly same argument can be said about any other business plan which involves a one-time profit. The massive profits need to rake in every couple of weeks. Using the lended capital to controlling the BTC price is another business plan where I don't see the frequency of the massive profits to be high enough and also needs to rotate huge amounts of capital very fast to obtain enough profits in this scheme as in here the profits can not be expected to be 30% per every rotation of the whole capital. Somebody could have seen this massive flow of capital if it really happened.

On the other hand unwinding the operation is trivially simple. Just use the same methods you use every 2 weeks to buy the coins and give them back to lenders and the massive debt and interest costs vanish instantly.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82560
Relevant?  Has anyone heard from OP since?

hmm

"we know that even people who don't have a relationship with us are using it to launder."

"Pirate is a nice guy at heart, but he does business with some ugly people who I don't want coming back to me."

My bet is that it is Nakaska

Sounds like some dangerous territory...

That was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw it as well - ZACH

Reading through this gives a list of stupid people to forever ignore.

Maybe.. For all we know, Pirate could have had him post that to get a reading on community sentiment...

Was already shown the coins didn't move enough to be laundering scheme. It's really sad how far people will go to try and argue they weren't actually tricked into a ponzi. Not to mention the fact that for someone that knew as much as pirate about btc it was worth the risk to invest in own business and have some faith in btc. As the interest loss would be > than volatility. I know bitlane has nothing better to do with his life than post on forums but the rest of you are better than this. Accept you got fucked in the ass, learn your lesson and move on. This is a sad show to witness.

If you read the BS&T thread from the beginning, pirate went to a great deal of trouble to create the impression that he was money laundering (even talking about how after he'd been paid in cash by his clients he didn't transfer the BTC until he was "out of harm's way").  Whether he was actually doing it or not, it was a good way to both deflect questions about his clients and their business and to create an explanation for how he was able to offer high returns.  He told people what they wanted to hear.

Who are you speaking to, 556j? No one in quite a few posts in this thread has said anything to the contrary. And some of us just like to theorize, and that often means exploring all possibilties, even the ones that might support legitimacy...

disclaimer; I lost 0 coins to BTCS&T

Getting fucked in the ass would be a kindness.

In reality, they got fucked in the ass with a jagged two by four lined with rusty nails!

Unfortunately, there's a lot of "they's" these days.  "They" line up to get fucked, and "they" scream LOUD on the forum after they're fucked.  Even BTC'ers who lost nothing in one scam or another scream LOUD after "they" get fucked.  Ultimately, this scares away BTC adoption by legitimate new businesses who come here looking for answers on how they might profit from accepting BTC.  Sad.

I wish the bitcoin community would shift it's focus away from the zero-sum game of trading BTC for fiat gambling in favor of working on vendor adoption.  If you have enough people exchanging BTC for REAL goods and services, all the financial scam drama that so regularly occurs here would fade into insignificance.

But that requires work, and people are lazy.

 >:(

But everyone liked 3400% interest ......we were all going to be millionaires
in just a few months :(

What are you doing the help BTC economy beside forum hero? Every single day I am trading goods and services for BTC. I have literally lived off bitcons for over a year. I haven't gotten any USD paycheck since college which was many years ago. Yes you can post on forums with ideals that are baselsss. But really what do you know? Let me tell you. People that do business with btc don't give a shit about idiots that "invest" in 7% a week ponzis or the current exchange rate. Is there someone that trades USD/EUR/GBP fir BTC? If yes then bitcoin is fine. Cry elsewhere.   

https://twitter.com/nakaska

His last post was: You Can Quit But You Can't Give Up http://bit.ly/tT9RkZ

The bit.ly address is http://bryce.vc/post/13198157725/you-can-quit-but-you-cant-give-up

The author of post:


http://oatv.com/


Head on over to the above to read more, but back to Nakaska's Twitter account. I touched on this before, but possibly effed-up with that AMD stuff. Once again, I bring to your attention Intellinerds, but this time I followed the links (plural).

http://blog.intellinerds.com/post/3437693856/tripdiv-launch

When you click on TripDiv you arrive at (I want a BlowBob for this) https://mining.demo.nakaska.com/


http://www.webboar.com/www/intellinerds.com

~Bruno~

SOB! Right back to BusCog: http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=69812266&authType=OUT_OF_NETWORK&authToken=zAt9&trk=hb_upphoto

wtf!

I just added the following to my post. (paraphrased)

SOB! Right back to BusCog: http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=69812266&authType=OUT_OF_NETWORK&authToken=zAt9&trk=hb_upphoto

You've lost me Phin.  We already know that Zach Nakasa is one of the active officers of GPUMax, we didn't need the Twitter posts to establish that - it's part of the public record.  

I'm not sure whether the true identity of ninjaat40 matters  (although my best guess would be his brother Rylan - the family seems to be well established and would have more reason than anyone else to not want Trendon's activities coming back on them and would know about any change in his spending habits).  Either the people who are really pissed off about pirate's scheme collapsing will report it to the US Attorney's Office (they seem to be the people who investigate and prosecute ponzis) and IRS and they'll ferret out any shady connections, or people will just gnash their teeth over this for a while before eventually moving on.  

To be honest, I doubt that many people who lost money to pirate want his activities properly investigated - which means that what he was really doing and with whom will likely remain a mystery.

I expect nothing to come of it as has happened with all previous scams of this magnitude.

Exactly, for I was the one who first bought light to him. Since he's the closest to Pirate that we can get at the moment, I felt it important to see if we can nail down this guys location.

From http://edge.dev.box.sk/newsread.php?newsid=275 we learn that he does have control of nakasa.com



~Bruno~

Yes, in the end, if any theft takes place, or all funds are not paid as agreed to in Pirate's original agreement with Lenders, Zach Nakasa is implicated simply due to Trendon's admission of 'wallet-sharing' between GPUMAX and BTCST, which although he cites for 'security reasons'....we can clearly show that BTCST Deposits were used to pay GPUMAX miners, of which Zach Nakasa is a partner in.

Great stuff.

Its nakaska.com

Registrant:
   Zach Nakaska
   6601 W Plano Pkwy
   Plano, TX 75093
   United States

   Registered through: GoDaddy.com, LLC (http://www.godaddy.com)
   Domain Name: NAKASKA.COM
      Created on: 28-Dec-08
      Expires on: 28-Dec-13
      Last Updated on: 08-Mar-10

   Administrative Contact:
      Nakaska, Zach  nakaska@gmail.com
      6601 W Plano Pkwy
      Plano, TX 75093
      United States
      +1.4323494476

   Technical Contact:
      Nakaska, Zach  nakaska@gmail.com
      6601 W Plano Pkwy
      Plano, TX 75093
      United States
      +1.4323494476

   Domain servers in listed order:
      NS61.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
      NS62.DOMAINCONTROL.COM

Now how the hell did I leave off an S when I was copy&pasting? At any rate, I would have had the same thing if I did the search correctly.

Anybody in for a road trip to Plano, TX?

~Bruno~

Setup a bitcoin meetup in plano  :D

Or contact his ex-schoolmates: http://www.midlandisd.net/Page/11090

That makes him about 30-years-old.

From his Twitter account:


~Bruno~

You realise that all this info is worth jack-shit if none of the people affected by this scam have the balls to go confront them, right?

Speaking of balls, Zach seems to get a hard-on every time he mentions Andrew Chen on Twitter.

http://andrewchen.co/about/


500 Startups keeps coming up in my research, but this is the first time I've taken the time to dig into them.

I found an Eric Ries: https://twitter.com/ericries (May 15, 2011)

So what you saying is, Balls cause hard-ons ?

For some people, yes. At any rate, look at what I just added to that post above, for we cross-post.

~Bruno~

Andrew Chen related to Zouh Tong ?

Only if he's the relic guy.

~Bruno~

A good friend of mine told me that bitcointalk is full of scammers and fraudsters. I did not believe him at first and he pointed out this thread. This is just epic. Some things are not quite clear but it is still an eye openiner. Lots of ponzy runners are still active on the forum, some changed their nicks like pay.btc -> chowyunfat, some simply trying to bury history under disguise of being helpful to noobs like Goat. All that after clearly criminal activity right here on this forum. Unbelievable!

Beware people, this is a den of thieves. Do not get fleeced.


Another epic thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91252.0 started shortly before pirate collapse. It gets really heated in the middle. Nicely shows who is who.

Certainly there has been plenty of scamming and fraud on here, but also lots of helpful people and good information too.  As with everything you just need to be careful who you trust.

And the trust system is working perfectly. Take a look at pirate's.


It wouldn't surprise me to see Trendon currently involved in some other Bitcoin endeavor.

You're pretty much exactly correct.

Refreshing to see new people as oriented as this.