Pirate accomplices

[imsaguy]

You all are dumber than a box of fraking hammers.

One:
No rich idiots exist that buy 10% over price.  Period.  Certainly not enough to move 500K BTC a week every week into perpetuity.

You're already missing it.

OK, so what is it? I'm honestly curious about what wrinkle turns the madness D&T describes into a totally winning business plan. What's to lose? Pirate's shutting down anyway, and even though many continue to deny it was ever a Ponzi scheme, you know that hope is fading every day.

Scroll back a few pages where someone asked me the same question and I replied.

[Frankie]

You all are dumber than a box of fraking hammers.

One:
No rich idiots exist that buy 10% over price.  Period.  Certainly not enough to move 500K BTC a week every week into perpetuity.

You're already missing it.

OK, so what is it? I'm honestly curious about what wrinkle turns the madness D&T describes into a totally winning business plan. What's to lose? Pirate's shutting down anyway, and even though many continue to deny it was ever a Ponzi scheme, you know that hope is fading every day.

Scroll back a few pages where someone asked me the same question and I replied.

You talked about OTC trading with 5% margins on both sides, and then some whales came in.  Please don't assume I'm Micon--I read these threads.

What did D&T get wrong?

[imsaguy]

You all are dumber than a box of fraking hammers.

One:
No rich idiots exist that buy 10% over price.  Period.  Certainly not enough to move 500K BTC a week every week into perpetuity.

You're already missing it.

OK, so what is it? I'm honestly curious about what wrinkle turns the madness D&T describes into a totally winning business plan. What's to lose? Pirate's shutting down anyway, and even though many continue to deny it was ever a Ponzi scheme, you know that hope is fading every day.

Scroll back a few pages where someone asked me the same question and I replied.

You talked about OTC trading with 5% margins on both sides, and then some whales came in.  Please don't assume I'm Micon--I read these threads.

What did D&T get wrong?

No, after that...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=103623.msg1139115#msg1139115

[Bitcoin Oz]

You all are dumber than a box of fraking hammers.

One:
No rich idiots exist that buy 10% over price.  Period.  Certainly not enough to move 500K BTC a week every week into perpetuity.

You're already missing it.

OK, so what is it? I'm honestly curious about what wrinkle turns the madness D&T describes into a totally winning business plan. What's to lose? Pirate's shutting down anyway, and even though many continue to deny it was ever a Ponzi scheme, you know that hope is fading every day.

Scroll back a few pages where someone asked me the same question and I replied.

You talked about OTC trading with 5% margins on both sides, and then some whales came in.  Please don't assume I'm Micon--I read these threads.

What did D&T get wrong?

There hasnt always been lots of exchanges to choose from. No that long ago we had to do the majority of bitcoin trades OTC simply because the infrastructure didnt exist. Pirate just discovered how to get a lot of liquidity doing that I imagine.

[556j]

3. Goat shouldn't be the only scapegoat. Add here the others, everyone who gave coins to Pirate to support his scam should be blamed.


PPS: I repeat for everyone - blame everyone who gave coins to Pirate, especially if they got profit with it.

We do/are. Check post #12 in this thread. Goat is taking a lot of heat because he was very vocal in trying to get new investors during July, he claimed to know what pirate was doing and suggested it wasn't a ponzi, and now he thinks he can pretend he never said those things and has no liability. That he thinks him and Theymos are a similar situation is laughable when it's pretty much the exact opposite. If you use logic he jsut plus his ears and goes *la la la, can't hear you* or uses some wanna be lawyer talk to try and wiggle his way out of it. But the people he's arguing with (other than me) are quite a bit smarter than himself and he keeps making a fool of himself. It's kinda of like watching a quadriplegic fight a MMA champion. After he gets smeared he declares himself the champion and struts around. He deserves all the shit flung at him in this thread and then some.

[Frankie]

You all are dumber than a box of fraking hammers.

One:
No rich idiots exist that buy 10% over price.  Period.  Certainly not enough to move 500K BTC a week every week into perpetuity.

You're already missing it.

OK, so what is it? I'm honestly curious about what wrinkle turns the madness D&T describes into a totally winning business plan. What's to lose? Pirate's shutting down anyway, and even though many continue to deny it was ever a Ponzi scheme, you know that hope is fading every day.

Scroll back a few pages where someone asked me the same question and I replied.

You talked about OTC trading with 5% margins on both sides, and then some whales came in.  Please don't assume I'm Micon--I read these threads.

What did D&T get wrong?

There hasnt always been lots of exchanges to choose from. No that long ago we had to do the majority of bitcoin trades OTC simply because the infrastructure didnt exist. Pirate just discovered how to get a lot of liquidity doing that I imagine.

OK.  I've read this and the post imsaguy cited again, and I do not see where D&T went wrong.

The business model is selling large numbers of coins above exchange rates repeatedly, right?  If not, what is wrong with this description?

[JoelKatz]

But as I said before I do not think pirate is running a ponzi so most of these loaded questions are N.A.

You mean you still don't?! Seriously?

[556j]

You sound like a sore loser :/  

What did I lose exactly? In fact I think most of the vocal people in this thread have nothing to lose in all of this. While you have very much to lose if you happened to be implicated as a coconspirator, as you should be.
At the beginning of this thread you were asking people to quote when did you claim it wasn't a ponzi and called p4man a slanderous fool. You go back and forth on your words and think you can pretend you never said or did things Then we dig up your old posts and you insult everyone that speaks out against you from that point.

[Snapman]

I say burn all those fuckers at the stake.... or give them a ruler thrashing they will never forget

[JoelKatz]

But as I said before I do not think pirate is running a ponzi so most of these loaded questions are N.A.

You mean you still don't?! Seriously?

The pro ponzi team has shown no evidence to support their claim. Why would I trust your word?

Wow, this is like arguing against evolution denialists who continue to insist that no matter how much argument and evidence you produce, until and unless you provide the unspecified evidence they insist on, nothing has been shown.

For about the fifteenth time: Every legitimate investment provides investors with some way to know that their funds were actually legitimately invested in something that has a reasonable expectation of making a profit and provides them some way to know that claimed profits or losses were actually the result of legitimate investment activity and not manufactured. It provides an assessment of the risk factors that affect the investment and some way for the investor to at least begin to assess the level of risk.

[stochastic]

Maybe this will teach people not to lend or borrow money anymore.  It does not matter if it was a ponzi or not, there is a lot of risk in lending and borrowing.

[556j]

You sound like a sore loser :/  

What did I lose exactly? In fact I think most of the vocal people in this thread have nothing to lose in all of this. While you have very much to lose if you happened to be implicated as a coconspirator, as you should be.
At the beginning of this thread you were asking people to quote when did you claim it wasn't a ponzi and called p4man a slanderous fool. You go back and forth on your words and think you can pretend you never said or did things Then we dig up your old posts and you insult everyone that speaks out against you from that point.

Yeah most people in the thread have nothing to lose. People like p4man already have their profit coin and now are trying to blame someone for their guilt. What you lost was your dignity. Your trying to blame me for your personal mistakes are now public. Deal with it. Accecpt some personal responsibility. There is no one here to bail you out!

Goat I didn't know I would literally have to spell it out for you, but I never had a penny invested into anything to do with pirate, ever. It was painfully obvious to both you and me what that operation was since day one. Rather than trying to profit off it like you, I mostly ignored it. Sometimes tried to warn people, watched you turn up the propaganda machine to get more marks, and now calling you out on it and you don't like it. Boohoo.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Maybe this will teach people not to lend or borrow money anymore.  It does not matter if it was a ponzi or not, there is a lot of risk in lending and borrowing.

No. People... People never change.

[JoelKatz]

So all non-legitimate investments are ponzi's? No wonder! You really just think this is not legitimate, you do not think this is a ponzi at all. Please look up what the word ponzi means and try again...

Do you really think it matters whether people knew that this was a Ponzi scheme or wondered precisely what type of illegitimate investment it was?

The argument that it must be a Ponzi scheme is complex and nuanced. But the argument that it is indistinguishable from a Ponzi scheme is trivial.

Rational people should treat a car the same way they treat something indistinguishable from a car. So as far as culpability for actions goes, it makes no difference.

[Frankie]

You all are dumber than a box of fraking hammers.

One:
No rich idiots exist that buy 10% over price.  Period.  Certainly not enough to move 500K BTC a week every week into perpetuity.

You're already missing it.

OK, so what is it? I'm honestly curious about what wrinkle turns the madness D&T describes into a totally winning business plan. What's to lose? Pirate's shutting down anyway, and even though many continue to deny it was ever a Ponzi scheme, you know that hope is fading every day.

Scroll back a few pages where someone asked me the same question and I replied.

You talked about OTC trading with 5% margins on both sides, and then some whales came in.  Please don't assume I'm Micon--I read these threads.

What did D&T get wrong?

There hasnt always been lots of exchanges to choose from. No that long ago we had to do the majority of bitcoin trades OTC simply because the infrastructure didnt exist. Pirate just discovered how to get a lot of liquidity doing that I imagine.

OK.  I've read this and the post imsaguy cited again, and I do not see where D&T went wrong.

The business model is selling large numbers of coins above exchange rates repeatedly, right?  If not, what is wrong with this description?

One part you are missing is the ability to set or manipulate the price on Gox. Setting the price when you buy and sell is pretty awesome.

This is where the explaination seems odd to me. The advantage that supposed IRL buyers have in buying through pirate is that he can give them a fixed price (say+10%) without changing the exchange price. Ok, so far so good.

Because he pays 7% every week he has to turn over these coins in order to continually make the payments. You explain this away with alleged market manipulation, but when you look at the market numbers, they don't seem sufficient to cycle through 500k bitcoins every week or two. Moreover we're back to a mystery--rich clients can't buy thousands of coins without moving the market, but somehow pirate can--repeatedly. Ads to this the difficulty of moving MILLIONS of sollars to exchanges each month, and I think you'll agree this theory seems as implausible as D&T harshly said it was.

Or am I still missing something?

[Frankie]

You all are dumber than a box of fraking hammers.

One:
No rich idiots exist that buy 10% over price.  Period.  Certainly not enough to move 500K BTC a week every week into perpetuity.

You're already missing it.

OK, so what is it? I'm honestly curious about what wrinkle turns the madness D&T describes into a totally winning business plan. What's to lose? Pirate's shutting down anyway, and even though many continue to deny it was ever a Ponzi scheme, you know that hope is fading every day.

Scroll back a few pages where someone asked me the same question and I replied.

You talked about OTC trading with 5% margins on both sides, and then some whales came in.  Please don't assume I'm Micon--I read these threads.

What did D&T get wrong?

There hasnt always been lots of exchanges to choose from. No that long ago we had to do the majority of bitcoin trades OTC simply because the infrastructure didnt exist. Pirate just discovered how to get a lot of liquidity doing that I imagine.

OK.  I've read this and the post imsaguy cited again, and I do not see where D&T went wrong.

The business model is selling large numbers of coins above exchange rates repeatedly, right?  If not, what is wrong with this description?

One part you are missing is the ability to set or manipulate the price on Gox. Setting the price when you buy and sell is pretty awesome.

This is where the explaination seems odd to me. The advantage that supposed IRL buyers have in buying through pirate is that he can give them a fixed price (say+10%) without changing the exchange price. Ok, so far so good.

Because he pays 7% every week he has to turn over these coins in order to continually make the payments. You explain this away with alleged market manipulation, but when you look at the market numbers, they don't seem sufficient to cycle through 500k bitcoins every week or two. Moreover we're back to a mystery--rich clients can't buy thousands of coins without moving the market, but somehow pirate can--repeatedly. Ads to this the difficulty of moving MILLIONS of sollars to exchanges each month, and I think you'll agree this theory seems as implausible as D&T harshly said it was.

Or am I still missing something?

mtgox is not the only place to sell coins. its really a bad place if you want to stay under the radar. i wonder if D&T has even heard of a place call fastcash4bitcoin.com  Here you can move BTC for cash with no ID... This is one of many...

So we strip away the claims, and all that's backing up "you're already missing it" is a sarcastic non sequitur?

[JoelKatz]

So all non-legitimate investments are ponzi's? No wonder! You really just think this is not legitimate, you do not think this is a ponzi at all. Please look up what the word ponzi means and try again...

Do you really think it matters whether people knew that this was a Ponzi scheme or wondered precisely what type of illegitimate investment it was?

The argument that it must be a Ponzi scheme is complex and nuanced. But the argument that it is indistinguishable from a Ponzi scheme is trivial.

Rational people should treat a car the same way they treat something indistinguishable from a car. So as far as culpability for actions goes, it makes no difference.

That is all you have? You only admit you have no real evidence and you can't back up your claim and I should just trust your assumption?

Yes you convinced me... Good job!  

Are you trolling now? Or are you seriously saying that you need me to provide evidence that Pirate is indistinguishable from a Ponzi scheme? You know what Pirate said, right. You know what Ponzi schemes are, right? If you think they're distinguishable, why not just tell me what distinguishes them?

I'm arguing that something is absent that would be trivially identifiable if it existed. If you want to maintain that it exists, just point it out.

I mean, I can do a point by point comparison of what we know about Pirate and what we know about Ponzi schemes, but I've already done that at least five times. I don't see the point in doing it again.

Honestly, I think you've switched to trolling at this point. Or you are very seriously in denial.

[SMTB1963]

So all non-legitimate investments are ponzi's? No wonder!

Good point.  I think many here are so invested in the "ponzi proposition" that they're refusing to consider other possibilities.

At the same time, it would be great if you could spell out your understanding of what pirate was up to (as long as it was legal ofc).  What is there for you to lose at this point?

Ponzi or not, there's no legal activity that I can think of that would allow paying such returns for any length of time. 

[humanitee]

Lol, pirate himself said in an IRC log that he knew what it looked like from the outside.

Trolls be trollin'.

[sadpandatech]

OK.  I've read this and the post imsaguy cited again, and I do not see where D&T went wrong.

I agree, D&T's image is no more or no less than it was before someone said he was now to be thought of lesser for his postings..

The business model is selling large numbers of coins above exchange rates repeatedly, right?  If not, what is wrong with this description?

 That's the exact business model. It has been the only known part of the business model since day one. We keep seeing posters make comments like, "It was so easy, I figured it out in seconds". No shit, Sherlocks, that is the extreme obvious conclusion. And the same one most of us drew from the get go. Now, if you can wrap your brains around the HUGE gaping hole in the model, then you will become instant millionaires! And that is, just how exactly would you reacquire coins + 7% without paying more than you just sold them for?
Private sellers?
 Sure, we could possibly find sellers who would want to avoid the same pitfall as the buyers would face making large buys/sells on the open market. But, who in their right mind would be a seller at a locked in, reduced rate when they can instead earn 7% on that BTC invested, or slow sell it as the market trend was and has been UP? (partly due to lots of liquid BTC being pulled into said investment, removing potential sellers from the market)
Strategic Market Buys?
 Yep, you bet. It is easy to move the market a bit to stagger in buys without jogging the market up. The cavaet however is two fold. One, the market trend is up. Two, the market movement is of a gain/loss volume that is not large enough to absorb more than a few K BTC without still moving it. Meaning, the more you need to purchase over a few thousand worth, the more you will find you have to manipulate the perceived trend, utilizing greater volumes of currency than you can afford to keep illiquid and still have inventory to sell to buyers and pay in interest.
Buy them from gpuMAX yourself
 Surely, this must be the answer. Except that in order to purchase shares from gpuMax and in turn acquire the bitcoins from the pools mined at, you have to pay for them upfront with BTC.. Even if we consider that we can manipulate the per share cost to be within 20%(a very conservative number as it is usually more like 35%+) and we can convince buyers that 27%+ is still cheaper than the alternative market route. We are then limited by the output capacity of gpuMAX. This total output was observed a few months back(sorry for lack of citation) and was roughly 1TH~. 1TH will produce ~2884 per week. We could even consider that the 1TH, if utilized at it's maximum Pool Hopping capacity may be able to produce an extra 20%. This would provide an additional 576.8 coins. For a total of 3460.8 coins purchased at a cost of 3460.8 coins. At that rate it is a zero sum benefit as the extra 20% of coins acquired are eaten by the 20% cost per share. We also assume we can negate the 10% fee since we control it. This is overly optimistic as that fee would likely be consumed in hosting and operator costs but I've left it out to attempt to give us the most benefit in BTCST's favor.
Unknown Method to buy coins below market price
 There could even be some uber secret method to buy large amounts of coins at or below market price. I can think of a few methods, all of which involve hedging other markets (I.E., S R) and have a HUGE risk of being negated by price movements. This secret sauce being unknown is what kept my coins away from this venture. Maybe some of you thought of this one too and it was very obvious to you. I however, could think of nothing and Pirate was unwilling to divulge this piece of the business model.

One part you are missing is the ability to set or manipulate the price on Gox. Setting the price when you buy and sell is pretty awesome.

I could not stop laughing long enough to sum up a meaningful response to place here.