Bitcoin Forum

"fuzzy" date

• No certain delivery dates.

yeah, they fucked this up last time so they are reluctant to make promises this time and blow it again

 - Exactly, they fu**ed up once so they are probably going to f**k up again!

• No pictures or schemes or anything.

they are literally sitting on a gold mine, that IP is going to be very closely guarded

 - If I have a gold mine and I am looking for inverters, I wont show the where the mine is, but I will give them pictures from inside the mine.

• Very limited information (actually there is no information on the ASICs).

see above

- So again if im sitting on a gold mine I wont tell where it is but I will provide geological data or something.

• I never got it why are BITCOIN payments preferred.

duh, they want to promote bitcoin

 - duh, cause with BITCOINS you may get away without returning them

• They broke the law of e-bay - 2 months to appeal and ask for a refund with their 2 to 4 to 6 months delivery - maybe.

??

- If you have bought anything on e-bay you will see that u can ask for your money back within 2 months, well BFL are telling me on e-bay that I can buy something with PayPal and they will probably maybe send it to me within 6 months. So again I cant get my money back - see above. :)

   and?

His point was that it seems unprofessional and maybe even a rush job. But it works for them, it works well. Should it be changed?

• They are a business registered in Massachusetts on the name of some Mexican woman.

because no Hispanic people live in Massachusetts

Apparently it is a huge secret, because at least once a month I hear someone just learning about it and talking like they think it is evidence of something sinister.

The two I bought (at different times) had the order number in the email.

i just paid for two "warmer" units via paypal and email support for order number. A person named pegi replied saying the order number is the paypal transaction number . Did anyone get this same reply ?

BFL has not and does not sell on eBay.  

BFL is not registered in Massachusetts ... not sure where that came from?  We are currently registered in Wyoming.

I think he means about all the point in his OP he made about something being funny about BFL's new ASIC. You proved him wrong on the owner location.

BFL have proved they are a serious company, shipping physical product and not a scam.  the only thing they have been reluctant to reveal is delivery dates etc, probably due to development issues.  When they first started accepting preorders, they probably had not developed the tech, but hopefully by now they have and its a question of asthetics etc?!  After all, they are due to start shipping in 4 weeks!

Yes that is what I mean. You have proven me wrong on one point, now please prove me wrong on the other points that I mention in the first post, so I you can persuade me to buy some of your ASICs.
Now I am a skeptic so if you manage to persuade me I will probably persuade 1/4 of the Bulgarian Bitcoin forum and u can see from the mining statistics how many we are. :)

I agree with you, but I think that they are a real but not a serious company based on their PR, support and overall look.
I do think that they will eventually produce some ASICs, but I am willing to bet that:

   BFL won't start shipping before January - February 2013!  :)

...
The website of BFL says it all.
...

I paid with paypal but received an invoice as well as an order number (four digits). So I highly doubt its the paypal transaction ID, they were probably requesting your transaction ID from paypal so they could bring up your order number.

What if they made their original product at a (slight) loss to build a good reputation for themselves so people believe them enough to please a large preorder for the suppossed ASIC?

(...)  We are also working very hard on getting the ASICs out the door on time.  We are really beefing up our production capacity and moving everything we can in house.  We've purchased a pick and place machine, an oven, stenciler and other equipment to manufacture all the boards in house.  This means we can produce as many boards as we need without being at the mercy of board manufacturers and their timing/runs. (...)

...We just shipped orders from the first of August, so we are getting caught up there....

This is the most interesting part of Josh's replay.
So we should expect in the next 10 days or so, people to start receiving them, posting results, pictures etc.

So why don't you finally post 1 picture of a Jalapeno or another ASIC?
If you are already shipping them it shouldn't be a problem!

Josh, don't convince him. Let them stay with GPU mining. There is cheap electricity in Bulgaria.  :P

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/primary/black-spider-monkey.jpg

This is a picture of one of the helper monkeys that work behind the scenes at EMC to send all those text and email messages.  People always wonder what they look like.

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/primary/black-spider-monkey.jpg
This is a picture of one of the helper monkeys that work behind the scenes at EMC to send all those text and email messages.  People always wonder what they look like.

They have deplorable customer service. It's the main reason why I may go with a totally different ASIC provider.

If they release an ASIC product first, it doesn't matter what that product is - if network hash rates increase by 5 or 10 times (potentially 40 times) then GPU mining becomes pointless. And you'll then be stuck with no way to earn. My advise is this, if you haven't jumped on the BFL bandwagon yet - do it now, order an fpga single and pre-order the upgrade for it. If another company produces an ASIC product, you should buy from them as well. The more developers making this hardware would be the best thing for growth of bitcoin longterm.

Indeed, the bottom line is we are working to improve customer service and our shipping times. 

btw, jalapeno

Hardware break even: 11 days
Net profit first time frame: 287.44 USD


i will have a lot of fun watching this thing!

Ya.. I wish. LOL. Just remember the difficulty is GOING TO SKYROCKET. THat means if it's up by 10x then our little doodads (I ordered a Jalepeno for poo and giggles) will only make 28.74 USD in that timeframe for the same amount of hashing work done.

There has been 0 proof from any of these so called ASIC developers. Each time the community shouts at one to show their hand, they bitch on how the other groups havent shown theirs. So we end up starting back at square one, with these groups charging an arm and leg for their units which don't technically exists yet except in concept.

And yet, people all over these forums are throwing tens of thousands of their hard earned dollars into a product nobody is willing to demonstrate.

Indeed, the bottom line is we are working to improve customer service and our shipping times.  We just shipped orders from the first of August, so we are getting caught up there.  I have been working hard on the customer service issue as well as the shipping issues.  We are also working very hard on getting the ASICs out the door on time.  We are really beefing up our production capacity and moving everything we can in house.  We've purchased a pick and place machine, an oven, stenciler and other equipment to manufacture all the boards in house.  This means we can produce as many boards as we need without being at the mercy of board manufacturers and their timing/runs. 

Our ASIC chip is 100% original IP and we will have as many chips as we need, when we need them.  We are standardizing a lot of our equipment, so we can keep massive quantities of inventory on hand (at least 6 months of production work is the goal), allowing us to crank out units - literally - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if need be.  We've hired more personnel and will be hiring yet more people as we gear up.   

The ASIC generation is going to be much less complex, as well, so there will be less steps to creating a fully functional end unit, and we will also be able to assemble/produce the much faster.  Everything you know about BFL is changing now and will continue to change.  The only thing I can do is assure you we understand the concerns and we are doing everything we can to address the past mistakes. 

What bugs me is the Hash power that they are introducing. 3 gh/s & 40 GH/s (no problem) but why is the next step a 1TH/s. Shouldn't or wouldn't make sense to come out with like an upgradable 250GH/s unit?

You would think they would start a little smaller (250GH/s upgradeable) and sell a bunch of those then move up in size a little bit (Just like with the rest of the computer industry)Then maybe two-three years down the road move up to the 1TH/s. There's no acceleration here, it's either stopped or WFO.

Seems like to me introducing this much speed will pretty much eliminate ALL the small guy's. By small I mean anything under 100Gh/s. I would think this will basically shoot them in the foot and they will realize what i'm talking about once everything is on the market and people are plugged in. Start small and work your way there. Don't go from ground floor to the 13th floor all at once. That's my 2 bits thanks for letting me vent.

If they offered a 250GH/s unit for $7,500 instead of a 1TH/s unit for $30,000, why couldn't those who ordered a single mini-rig instead just order four 250GH/s units?

In other words, it would make very little difference in overall network hashrate if they had chosen 250GH/s as their largest hasher instead of 1TH/s.

I have a strong feeling they will deliver, but not on time. I've never ordered from BFL before except to pre-order my jalapeno but by reading these forums I'm nearly sure the ETA for delivery will be pushed back quite a bit.

They did buy up ALL the ad space on this site.... I think something is up and they will be very far behind schedule... I think maybe 1 of each units will be shipped out per week for the next 15 years :)

Well, October is near. Either they start delivering some ASIC or then i'll add them to my scam list

Remember that delivering FPGA is much much much easier than ASIC  ;)

Seems like all these so-called asics producers want your money before they even have produced a single asic-miner at all? And if you do not get involved now, either way you never get one that will pay itself back in a reasonable time, or will have to pay almost double the pre-order price when waiting.

it was the same with their fpga's and they did deliever.
i am not afraid ;)

Remember that delivering FPGA is much much much easier than ASIC

it was the same with their fpga's and they did deliever.
i am not afraid ;)

it was the same with their fpga's and they did deliever.
i am not afraid ;)

Seems like all these so-called asics producers want your money before they even have produced a single asic-miner at all? And if you do not get involved now, either way you never get one that will pay itself back in a reasonable time, or will have to pay almost double the pre-order price when waiting.

EXACTLY
They are counting on that to make you pay them formidable amounts of money without any securing, and all the mentioned above points.
I am beginning to believe that ASICs and particularly BFL will be the Next New Old Ponzi Scheme.
Cross our fingers and lets hope for the best! :)

If this company is producing these super hashing units, then why are the selling them?

Wouldn't they make more profit by just plugging them all in an keeping them all for their own mega-pool?

If I was producing these I would not let one of them outside the company and keep them all running as constantly as I could. Unless I am missing something.

Cross our fingers and lets hope for the best! :)

His point was that it seems unprofessional and maybe even a rush job. But it works for them, it works well. Should it be changed?

If this company is producing these super hashing units, then why are the selling them?

Wouldn't they make more profit by just plugging them all in an keeping them all for their own mega-pool?

If I was producing these I would not let one of them outside the company and keep them all running as constantly as I could. Unless I am missing something.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1018ky/q_if_these_fpga_and_asic_miners_are_really_worth/c69i9r0

I am still a newbie so this is the only place I can post this.

Josh from Butterfly Labs @ Bitcoin Conference 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT-smMzg54k&feature=colike

BTW, not my video.

I see that the poll indicates over half agree that they will get them just not when they promise...

Did you read this shit:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110868.0

It is the funniest thing I've read, it is like e 5 year old retard is trying to make me believe in Santa! :D

• No certain delivery dates.

yeah, they fucked this up last time so they are reluctant to make promises this time and blow it again

• No pictures or schemes or anything.

they are literally sitting on a gold mine, that IP is going to be very closely guarded

• Very limited information (actually there is no information on the ASICs).

see above

• No one answers their phone.

see their FAQ

• They answer your e-mail within 2-3 weeks.

they answered my last email the next day

• All their answers are with a maybe or possibly.

see the first point

• I never got it why are BITCOIN payments preferred.

duh, they want to promote bitcoin

• The broke the law of e-bay - 2 months to appeal and ask for a refund with their 2 to 4 to 6 months delivery - maybe.

??

• They are a business registered in Massachusetts on the name of some Mexican woman.

because no Hispanic people live in Massachusetts

• They are playing with millions yet their website is made with WordPress.

and?

• Up to today no one has either seen, touched or heard their ASICs. (even remotely)

see point 2

<SARCASM>yes because you can obviously reverse engineer an ASIC from a photo of its box.</SARCASM>

My only question about BFLabs is:

Why would they sell a ACSI equipment for $30,000 that can mine 1,000G/Hash (roughly 4,500 dollars in BTC per day) and you can recover the investment in about 8 days, when they can easily build it for themselves and mine the shit out of it and become millionaires by running 10-20 of those themselves?

They can make like 500 units per day, these will run a 24-hour burn-in test, so they will be constantly mining with 500 pcs of jalapenos/40Ghs/1TH machines. At 400X3.5G+80X40G+20X1TH.....
1400k+3200k+20000k=24600k Mh/s=$106,863.96 a day?? ???

Check my calculation please, someone?

A) Have one successful build.
B) Have one that is able to work with the bitcoin network
C) They require water cooling so they do not catch fire.
D) Have one that does not catch fire after running for 12h.

What if they made their original product at a (slight) loss to build a good reputation for themselves so people believe them enough to please a large preorder for the suppossed ASIC?

Yes, I'm sorry if I confused anyone, but we are only shipping the FPGA products at the moment.  The comment above was with regards to the FPGA Singles - our helper monkeys (They are on subcontracted out from EMC) are busily creating more singles as we speak for shipping either later this week or early next week. 

We also have more than 300 boards on their way after that to satisfy current and future orders prior to the ASICs.  It will sure be nice when we have the pick and place ready to go and we don't have rely on a third party to place the components on our boards.

They can make like 500 units per day, these will run a 24-hour burn-in test, so they will be constantly mining with 500 pcs of jalapenos/40Ghs/1TH machines. At 400X3.5G+80X40G+20X1TH.....
1400k+3200k+20000k=24600k Mh/s=$106,863.96 a day?? ???

Check my calculation please, someone?

I'd drop that figure to about 1/5.  No way they're building 20 minirigs a day.

But even assuming they are, compare the price of those (assumed) hardware pieces compared to the mining revenue.

400 x $150 + 80 x $1300 + 20 x $30000 = $764,000 selling price.

So, even if they make $107k/day mining, it still wouldn't make up a substantial portion of their revenues.  And that $107k wouldn't last long either - as more of the units are released into the wild, that revenue would drop to maybe $10k/day, if that.

I'm not particularly happy that BFL is choosing to mine on the main net, but I'm not going to cancel my order over it either.

...so they will be constantly mining with 500 pcs of jalapenos/40Ghs/1TH machines.

Whoa! I may have to cancel my pre-order. Nobody said anything about EMC being involved. I work for HP, I can't be seen buying anything that's had EMC hands in it.... SO TORN NOW

I think that they are building 0 ASIC mining rigs a day.....  :)

In my server room I have HP Proliants and EMC NAS cohabitating. Tell you what? They're both great  ;)

They can make like 500 units per day, these will run a 24-hour burn-in test, so they will be constantly mining with 500 pcs of jalapenos/40Ghs/1TH machines. At 400X3.5G+80X40G+20X1TH.....
1400k+3200k+20000k=24600k Mh/s=$106,863.96 a day?? ???

Check my calculation please, someone?

I've made a fun game out of the absurd knocks against BFL by replacing any mention of BFL with any huge name company, and replacing any instance of ASIC with a high profile product that they make. For example:

OMG BFL IS A SCAM WHY WON'T THEY SHOW ME PICTURES OF THE ASIC AND THEY WON'T KEEP A RUNNING BLOG OF DEVELOPMENT PROGRESS AND I'M CALLING A LAWYER BECAUSE THEY TOOK PRE-ORDERS AND MISSED THEIR RELEASE DATE BY A FEW WEEKS!!!!!!

becomes

OMG APPLE IS A SCAM WHY WON'T THEY SHOW ME PICTURES OF THE IPHONE 6 AND THEY WON'T KEEP A RUNNING BLOG OF DEVELOPMENT PROGRESS AND I'M CALLING A LAWYER BECAUSE THEY TOOK PRE-ORDERS AND MISSED THEIR RELEASE DATE BY A FEW WEEKS!!!!!!

My only question about BFLabs is:

Why would they sell a ACSI equipment for $30,000 that can mine 1,000G/Hash (roughly 4,500 dollars in BTC per day) and you can recover the investment in about 8 days, when they can easily build it for themselves and mine the shit out of it and become millionaires by running 10-20 of those themselves?
If I had the capacity to build such miners, would I build them and sell them at such a low price or would I just mine with them and make my business the mining business?

Just a thought...

Its a scam, the CEO of BFL is a major scammer and has already been in jail for it too for mail order scam.

If you have already preordered - Don't count on getting your money back.

Do some research, he spent time in prison............ Says a lot.

It basically says "he paid his debt to society"...
Just because someone had a conviction doesn't mean they can't change...

Hi, I am a child molester, but I did 10 years in prison. Would you let me take care of your kids, please?

In the words of a wise man:

Shit reasoning is shit.

they are literally sitting on a gold mine, that IP is going to be very closely guarded

A hardware SHA256 processor isn't exactly rocket science... the fact that they give no updates really smells IMHO.

Sounds like a scam to me.

So, another scam popped today - GLBSE
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115704.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115669.0

Why is it so hard for people to see that BFL is also a scam! :)

WTF links that scam to the company BFL?
Running out of bogus claims, aren't you?

What?
Are you retarded?
I've never sad that those links are connected in any way with BFL! It is just meant to show you that miners are like little children believing in Santa - ponzi Santa that is.

btw it is the 8th of October - Anyone received their BFL ASIC :D :D :D

Oh, so it is November now a month ago it was October, :) I guess a month from now it will be December and so on....

Dude, you start with the accusations, speaking about me beeing payed by someone, or no personal life and shit, that is the oldest trick in the book, get real or are you really retarded.
I personally thought BFL's ASICs were a scam from the beginning, but after rising my questions, and not getting satisfactory answers, I became certain of it but only time will tell. :)


P.S. And yeah I do have a couple hundred GPUs but they broke even months ago, I have no FPGAs and GPUs are easily sellable so I couldn't care less. :)
If an ASIC comes out I'll buy it. Actually when an ASIC comes out, I wouldn't care if it is BFL or someone else. So January I'd probably be buying one of the first ASICs. :)

Currently, the most powerful GPU for mining, the AMD Radeon 7970...

I beg to differ, my 7990 is far more powerful than the 5970.

I kinda doubt that you have a 7990, cause they have been out out for like 20 days, and you can't find them in mot countries.
And only PowerColor makes them (I think) and I wont buy PowerColor ever again :D

But yeah you are right!

Right... I don't have one.  Just like BFL is a scam.  Whatever.

I'll just leave this here.

http://communityhosting.net/ih/images/camerabxb.jpg

Damn Inaba - don't ever get tired smacking down haters?

I think thats been photoshopped. I can tell by the pixels cause i have seen a lot of photoshops in my time.

Indeed, the bottom line is we are working to improve customer service and our shipping times.  We just shipped orders from the first of August, so we are getting caught up there.  I have been working hard on the customer service issue as well as the shipping issues.  We are also working very hard on getting the ASICs out the door on time.  We are really beefing up our production capacity and moving everything we can in house.  We've purchased a pick and place machine, an oven, stenciler and other equipment to manufacture all the boards in house.  This means we can produce as many boards as we need without being at the mercy of board manufacturers and their timing/runs.  

Our ASIC chip is 100% original IP and we will have as many chips as we need, when we need them.  We are standardizing a lot of our equipment, so we can keep massive quantities of inventory on hand (at least 6 months of production work is the goal), allowing us to crank out units - literally - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if need be.  We've hired more personnel and will be hiring yet more people as we gear up.  

The ASIC generation is going to be much less complex, as well, so there will be less steps to creating a fully functional end unit, and we will also be able to assemble/produce the much faster.  Everything you know about BFL is changing now and will continue to change.  The only thing I can do is assure you we understand the concerns and we are doing everything we can to address the past mistakes.  

Right... I don't have one.  Just like BFL is a scam.  Whatever.  This is why everything you say is complete bullshit.  You make statements and pronouncements that you have absolutely no ability to back up and you have absolutely no knowledge of, yet you try to proclaim these things as facts.  You know exactly nothing, and anything you say is basically crap.

I'll just leave this here.

http://communityhosting.net/ih/images/camerabxb.jpg

I formly ignored all the asic talks so far as in some occasions something that sounds to good to be true eventually is , yeah, not true.
Or in an other context, you can put lipstick on a bear but its still a bear.

Let's play guess-the-alt.

"if needed, weekends and 24 hour shifts can keep the production line moving to satisfy quick delivery of customer orders. To this end we've purchased an entire SMT assembly suite and hired a capable team to run it. These units are currently being installed in our new facility."

"BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 09:47 AM
The setup has a conservative capacity of 300 units per 8 hour shift or 900 units in a 24 hour day."

I know that when I buy manually produced tech devices that I would love to get ones produced towards the end of 24 hour shifts. "Can't get enough of your faults, baby."

This is the way I look at it..

BLF said..


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php/120-BFL-Invests-in-Assembly-Equipment (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php/120-BFL-Invests-in-Assembly-Equipment)

..ok if that is true, why is anyone bothering to risk money on a pre-order?  :P

I suspect chips that fail to make the grade after the oven will end up in the Jalapeno (it's a slower speed)
I suspect faulty Single SC's will end up sold as Little Singles (with up to half the chips dissabled/damaged)

It's shows they have planned this through. Like bad Ati 5890s are graded down to 5850s and 5830s.

Hope not, if it is i'll be in the poor house.

Never put all your eggs in one basket, especially when that basket is on the internet.

Day 0 is expected roughly around November 30th, plus or minus a week:

Day T-10: Four of the five ASIC manufacturers claim to be finalizing the design / optimizing / trying to resolve some nagging power issue / whatever, yet not a single person that pre-paid for an ASIC has one in-hand.
Day T-8: Difficulty of 3.5 million and exchange rate of $15 mean profitability is still acceptable for GPU miners paying average electric rates or less.
Day T-5: A lot more "N Ghash/s for sale" listings will start to appear [Edit: as-in total liquidation of N GHash/s of capacity]
Day T-4: Difficulty for Litecoin rises as miners experiment, causing there to be no chance of profit from Litecoin mining either.
Day T-3: Block 209,664 -- last difficulty adjustment before the block subsidy reward drops (fact, not a prediction)
Day T-1: Last day that anywhere near 7,200 BTC is produced (fact, not a prediction)
Day 0: Block 210,000 hits and only about 3,600 are produced (fact, not a prediction)
Day 1: Blocks slow to about 11 minutes as some GPU miners realize basic math and power down.
Day 2: Exchange rate volatile, both up and down, but returns to previous levels -- about $15.
Day 3: Anger and vitriol from GPU miners who are still "underwater" on their GPUs purchased in 2012.
Day 4: Anger and vitriol from FPGA miners who somehow didn't realize that "much more efficient" doesn't protect against a revenue drop of 50%
Day 5: Blocks slow to about 12 minutes as more GPU miners realize the payouts are dismal and begin to proceed past "denial", the first step in the grieving process,
Day 6: ASIC hardware developers see an even greater number of prepayments for hardware. Much gnashing of teeth on the forums.
Day 7: Hashing on CoinLab's GPU network grows tremendously as miners cash in their built-up loyalty credits.
Day 8: Nearly all NVidia GPUs that were used for mining are now either computing with CoinLab or have been decommissioned.
Day 9: Gamers elated over some really good AMD and NVidia graphics cards available "really, really cheap" on eBay.
Day 10: Blocks slow to about 13 minutes, as not only did the block reward subsidy drop but so did the frequency of blocks -- making mining bring in even less revenue each day.
Day 11: Speculators hoping for the "doubling" of the exchange rate realize it didn't happen (or perhaps already happened, from $5-ish, over the summer), and sell off a little Exchange rate drops to $12-ish.
Day 12: ASIC manfuacturers claim to be finalizing the design / optimizing / trying to resolve some nagging power issue / whatever, yet not a single person that pre-paid for an ASIC has one in-hand.
Day 13: Block 211,680 - difficulty adjusts. Drops 15%. Back to one block every ten minutes.
Day 14: Mining operators are still seeing electric bills from the previous month's consumption. Even more anger, vitriol and gnashing of teeth.
Day 15: Christmas-related activities overtake bitcoin as being the event more important to many mining operators.
Day 25: The daily "average price" remains in a range between $12 and $15.
Day 26: Many "slightly used" GPU cards land in wrapped boxes under trees. Others, particularly those who had a larger investment in their GPU rigs, are using the phrase "bah, humbug" more than they had in any prior holiday season.
Day 27: Difficult adjusts, dropping another 5%. Yawn.
Day 30: ASIC manufacturers claim to be finalizing the design / optimizing / trying to resolve some nagging power issue / whatever, yet not a single person that pre-paid for an ASIC has one in-hand.

I just LOVED this!

just wait, just 2 more months

What happened to BFL_Josh? Is he alive? :)

While I can't give a hard date and say "absolutely" this is the date, it looks like the week of the 11th,

So did I or did I not say January!
Here is a quote from BFL's admin:
source: https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=125.0

So did I or did I not say January!
Here is a quote from BFL's admin:
source: https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=125.0 (https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=125.0)

We're supposed to listen to the judgement of someone that hasn't even mastered "copy and paste"?

We're supposed to listen to the judgement of someone that hasn't even mastered "copy and paste"?

Yes, because he told you so, and was right! :P

Here is a quote from BFL's admin:
source: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a.html

Interestingly, since the first per-orders the price of BTC went almost double. So will BFL return full refunds or "full refunds" ;)

I am expecting some comment from all who opposed me, blamed that im working for someone, and were defending BFL.

Well I am not 5y old so I think they can play it in two ways.

Return the exact amount of $ to the people who payed in $ and return the exact amount BTC to the people who payed in BTC, which would be fair.
-or-
Return the exact amount of $ to the people who payed in $ end return the the amount in BTC to people who payed in BTC but according to today prices not the number of bitcoins they payed. Example:
Back then the price was around 8$ per BTC. I payed 100BTC x 8$ =800$ so I gave them 800$, and now they return to me my 800$ / 12$ = 66.6BTC and they give me only 66.6BTC.

Don't you people know how scams work?  ;D

Well I am not 5y old so I think they can play it in two ways.

Return the exact amount of $ to the people who payed in $ and return the exact amount BTC to the people who payed in BTC, which would be fair.
-or-
Return the exact amount of $ to the people who payed in $ end return the the amount in BTC to people who payed in BTC but according to today prices not the number of bitcoins they payed. Example:
Back then the price was around 8$ per BTC. I payed 100BTC x 8$ =800$ so I gave them 800$, and now they return to me my 800$ / 12$ = 66.6BTC and they give me only 66.6BTC.

Don't you people know how scams work?  ;D

WoW, sorry I ain't "that stupid" to buy a BFL ASIC in the first place, so I didn't know that payments went only thru bitpay. ;)

So if BFL refunds everyone right now they will get almost 1/2 of their bitcoins.
Pretty clever scam -  lie till the price goes up, then return 1/2 the bitcoins. :D
Everyone knew that bitcoin price was going up. :D Damn they are smarter than I thought. I wish I had come up with the ASIC scheme :D

WoW, sorry I ain't "that stupid" to buy a BFL ASIC in the first place, so I didn't know that payments went only thru bitpay. ;)

So if BFL refunds everyone right now they will get almost 1/2 of their bitcoins.
Pretty clever scam -  lie till the price goes up, then return 1/2 the bitcoins. :D
Everyone knew that bitcoin price was going up. :D Damn they are smarter than I thought. I wish I had come up with the ASIC scheme :D

WoW, sorry I ain't "that stupid" to buy a BFL ASIC in the first place, so I didn't know that payments went only thru bitpay. ;)

So if BFL refunds everyone right now they will get almost 1/2 of their bitcoins.
Pretty clever scam -  lie till the price goes up, then return 1/2 the bitcoins. :D
Everyone knew that bitcoin price was going up. :D Damn they are smarter than I thought. I wish I had come up with the ASIC scheme :D

Man you are retarded, even my 5-year old daughter is brighter and smarter than you. Don't bother to respond, I'm pretty sure you will never get it.

60 GH/s BFL Single SC - Pre-Order Yours Today!
`````` Only $1299.99 - butterflylabs.com ````

Huh???

Quote: In my personal opinion there is something very stinky about BFL:

   1. No certain delivery dates.     ----------- no asic vendor gave, besides this was known when you posted, so a useless comment
   2. No pictures or schemes or anything.  ---------  fail point, pictures shown, if you expect to get schematics, dream on!
   3. Very limited information (actually there is no information on the ASICs).  ------------ Too basic complaint. What do you want to know?
   4. No one answers their phone.  ------------ How many times have you called? I bet never.
   5. They answer your e-mail within 2-3 weeks. ------------ utter lie, I had email exchanges with answers between 2 minutes to 2 days at the august peak periods
   6. All their answers are with a maybe or possibly. ---------- again, what are you asking?
   7. I never got it why are BITCOIN payments preferred. ---------- They  are not, but considering it's all about bitcoins, I wouldn't mind if they were
   8. The broke the law of e-bay - 2 months to appeal and ask for a refund with their 2 to 4 to 6 months delivery - maybe. --------- fail, bfl does not sell on ebay, some bloke sells his places in line
   9. They are a business registered in Massachusetts on the name of some Mexican woman. ------------- fail, fud from months back.
   10. They are playing with millions yet their website is made with WordPress. --------------  So?
   11. Up to today no one has either seen, touched or heard their ASICs. (even remotely) ---------- Not heard of their asics? Are you deaf? Do you read magazines, follow more vendors?

In short, utter fail attempt to score with nothing. Again.

This user is currently ignored.

Huh?

Dude, I don't want to be your 5y old retarded daughter, poor thing she has a lying father. jk :D :D
How much did BFL pay you to put this in your signature:
You understood exactly what I sad and if you haven't. Try denying this:
If BFL bought BTC with the money everyone gave them a long time ago, and issues a refund right now, assuming that they didn't spend any money to develop anything and were just lying, will they make a profit?

Now if you follow my posts, you will see that I don't think that BFL is a scam, but that they are lying again and again about the shipping date, so they can make a few $ more, and catch a few more fish(miners). :)

I withheld from comenting on this:

But now I have to:
1. Any serious business gives delivery dates of their products, so your comment is useless!
2. They showed the first picture, when the should've started shipping their ASIC, so they send pics instead, :D again your comment is useless.
3. When I give someone money, and not a small amount of money I expect information, and a webpage not made with WordPress ;)
4., 5., 6., Are true! 2-3 months ago there was literally no customer support on BFLs side, again you are useless and pointless in your comment.
The next few we have commented.
11. Again 3 months ago, no one had seen their ASIC, I dont think that anyone has seen it yet, but dude, this thread is 3 months old learn to read!
You are giving today's information to 3 month old questions!

All this still feels unfounded... Let's wait until we see what they do. Which I somewhat hope the ASICs are a hoax so I can at least see more insane rigs that span entire walls. I like that creativity going on. These lunchboxes take out a lot of the fun.
On another note, this guy who is blowing the whistle on BFL sure has a tendency to be a name caller and is more argumentative than trying to actually come up with a logical conclusion.

And at first I wasn't blowing any whistle, but I have some experience with projects and a easy calculation told me that the earliest they can deliver is mid January, so all their claims for October were ridiculous and kind of got me pissed off.

all depends on the value of the btc's

Well, we will see. In any case if you invested in ASIC you should have done so with more than one vendor in order to mitigate risk.

I could not disagree with that more!
You should invest in ASIC only after you have seen one delivered to someone somewhere.

4 months ago, when the first pre-orders started, if u invested 10 000$ in BTC or in GPUs, now (if you sell the GPUs) you would probably have 15-20 000$ depending on how smart and lucky you are. Although this is a very very rough estimate, how is investing in a ASIC 4 months ago a better than this?

Now if we assume that ASICs come today and difficulty rises 2-3 times. If you buy ASIC after you will miss the most profitable period, but that would be roughly compensated from the 50-100% income of mining or just playing on the BTC market or doing something else with your money for 4 months. So lets say that its relatively the same.

But what if ASICS don't come out, or come out in 2-3 months. ;)  ???

Well, we will see. In any case if you invested in ASIC you should have done so with more than one vendor in order to mitigate risk.

So BFL cancels one delivery date after the other, because they are supposedly only waiting for parts (mainly the ASICs themselves!) - yet they are still fiddling around with the final design of their casing?!?!

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/459-new-single-sc-pics.html (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/459-new-single-sc-pics.html)
BFL_Josh: "I was taking some pics for some promotional stuff tonight, so I thought I'd share some of the pics. This is the new, taller case to accomodate some better airflow, ..."

So BFL cancels one delivery date after the other, because they are supposedly only waiting for parts (mainly the ASICs themselves!) - yet they are still fiddling around with the design of their casing?!?!

One could expect that they by now have tons of casings ready just waiting for the PCB to be plugged in - yet they don't even have that!

I've had to deal with fabrication before, and I can tell you that several of my designs wound up changing at the 11th hour before production.

A new case rev takes us between 2 and 5 days to go from design document to product in hand.  It's not really an issue.

But many video games (GTA V and Duke Nukem) for example blow past the expected release dates.. Tesla cars same thing.. endless list of collectibles do the same.

Or as Inaba would say: "OK BFL sucks. But bASIC/Tom sucks even more".
Or like Hitler would have said: "OK I suck. But Stalin sucks even more".

Two wrongs doesn't make one right ...

Or as Inaba would say: "OK BFL sucks. But bASIC/Tom sucks even more".
Or like Hitler would have said: "OK I suck. But Stalin sucks even more".

So I assume on the day the little Chinese leprechauns bring you your ASICs all the other problems, redesigns, difficulties in delivery, etc. are solved mysteriously and the "magic" (aka everything is working together nicely) happens. Somehow. And one day later your have a working product that you can ship. Yes?

There are usually working samples made before final fabrication to make sure you are getting what you want.  I would imagine that they should have at least 1 working prototype right now ...

They don't have a working prototype. They already admitted that.

Hopefully they don't have any issues with assembly.

Well, that's capitalism. Take chances, win big or lose your money.

If BFL does have ASICs, then the people who put their money on the line in pre-orders are going to have a heyday when it first gets released and the difficulty hasn't increased yet. The people who decided to wait will still have a chance to mine, but not until after the difficulty has ramped up.

If BFL doesn't have the ASICs... well. That's highly unfortunate, but hey; you're working with experimental technology that works with a relatively experimental e-currency, you have to expect that things might not turn out according to plan. Invest at your own risk.

I haven't pre-ordered (Although I gave the Jalapeno some serious thought with the low starting price), so I think I'll see how it works when the first people begin to get theirs and think about it.

Hopefully we can see shipments start to go out between the 24th and 31st...if not, refunds on January 1st were promised to be available.

They've already said it's going to be at least another 30 days (whether that's when they expect the chips to be completed or when they expect to receive them isn't clear).

They've also said that anyone who wants a refund can have one now.

Unofficial yet...but I was referring to "Assuming that date is correct, we would contractually have the chips in bulk no later than the 24th" on https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/251-more-jalapeno-pictures-shipping-update-44.html

Thanks for the update :) was unaware of the change in refund policy.

After talking with our liaison tonight and still having not received a final confirmation date, we were as tired of this as everyone else is, so we continued to push for a date and they gave us 30 days from today.

If we have extended our date beyond your ability to stick with us, we at Customer Service are ready to refund money for those who want to get out of the line.

just wait, just 2 more months

LOL GOIN ON 4 MONTHS NOW. HINDSIGHT IS HILARIOUS!  :D

Well at least we now know that the fab isn't in China, so no Chinese New Year delays.

BFL is liking waiting for all the dates to expire by which users can return items, so they can take the money and run.

Because waiting for return policies to expire makes taking the money and running any more legitimate?  If they were going to run, they would have done so long ago.

Well at least we now know that the fab isn't in China, so no Chinese New Year delays.

As you'll recall - I said it would be march at the earliest. I'll be pleased if they show up any sooner than that.

Just curious how the months of November and December add up to 4?  By my count, that is two.  Even if you include all of January, which is unlikley, that's 3.  So where does 4 come from?  Last I checked, 1 + 1 = 2 and 1+1+1 = 3.

just wait, just 2 more months

If they had never, ever delivered a functioning product in the past I'd be far more suspicious.  But they have.

Still enough braindeads here who still buy into their "queue". With every day they do not run off they make more money...
*edit* A bit like the pirate situation: Everyone knows its a trap but most people fall for it due to their greed..

In my personal opinion there is something very stinky about BFL:

• No certain delivery dates.
• No pictures or schemes or anything.
• Very limited information (actually there is no information on the ASICs).
• No one answers their phone.
• They answer your e-mail within 2-3 weeks.
• All their answers are with a maybe or possibly.
• I never got it why are BITCOIN payments preferred.
• The broke the law of e-bay - 2 months to appeal and ask for a refund with their 2 to 4 to 6 months delivery - maybe.
• They are a business registered in Massachusetts on the name of some Mexican woman.
• They are playing with millions yet their website is made with WordPress.
• Up to today no one has either seen, touched or heard their ASICs. (even remotely)

So what is your opinion, I personally believe that they are developing something but they are quite away from delivering it or with the given characteristics.
Some of my friends think that all of it might be a lie.

EDIT:
So after 3 months this is what BLF has to say:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a.html
Got to love that! :D

Now I understand that BLF are still "waiting" for their fuzzy chips to arrive,... they said something like 30 days :D
Lets see what will they come up win 30 days.

I think people should understand when having millions of dollars and at such sudden rate company's would and will do anything to keep it until providing the actual product. they didn't have maybe have the interest of the people when telling everyone the shipping dates but dont get me wrong they are trying to keep a hold of the amount they have without people asking for refunds so its kinda understandable.






NOT A BFL STAFF

...Making more excuses and being vague only shows how unprofessional they are....
Bullshit.

I'm convinced they dumped most of that money into btc investments and are cashing out slowly and refunding people while making filthy amounts of money on the BTC growth over the last months. They will end up sending out a soso product after the first company or two beats them to the punch then will claim they still sent out what they promised performance wise which at this point I wouldn't trust.

I'm convinced they dumped most of that money into btc investments and are cashing out slowly and refunding people while making filthy amounts of money on the BTC growth over the last months. They will end up sending out a soso product after the first company or two beats them to the punch then will claim they still sent out what they promised performance wise which at this point I wouldn't trust.

When did they start planning their ASIC production? 3 months seems like a short time for ASIC production from scratch.

I'm convinced they dumped most of that money into btc investments and are cashing out slowly and refunding people while making filthy amounts of money on the BTC growth over the last months. They will end up sending out a soso product after the first company or two beats them to the punch then will claim they still sent out what they promised performance wise which at this point I wouldn't trust.

I'm convinced they dumped most of that money into btc investments and are cashing out slowly and refunding people while making filthy amounts of money on the BTC growth over the last months. They will end up sending out a soso product after the first company or two beats them to the punch then will claim they still sent out what they promised performance wise which at this point I wouldn't trust.

Make the wait a little more interesting?

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=1030 (http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=1030)

After a long and anxious waiting, we have finally got our packaged chip samples at hand. Everyone would be busy in the following 2-3 weeks.

The following pics are taken from my cellphone.

30GHash/s of computing power on one table:
http://img3.douban.com/view/photo/photo/public/p1823831858.jpg

Top and bottom side of the chips:
http://img3.douban.com/view/photo/photo/public/p1823831931.jpg

A closer look at our baby:
http://img3.douban.com/view/photo/photo/public/p1823832020.jpg

Why in the world is this thread in Other --> Newbies?

They still have a long way to go but it seems they are way ahead of BFL.
I'd love some comments from those who give BFL money and were thinking they are so smart, and  those who sad that I'm some troll or been payed to talks smack about BFL.

Some funny new sh*t from BFL :)

An interview with BFL Josh and his fake ASIC box:
http://youtu.be/5ZUPniBo5UQ


A real photo of the ASIC BOX (miner):
 http://www.picvalley.net/u/2390/7091294924542137231357823445DbRNmg2gF2jIslD4gXBg_m.JPG (http://www.picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2390/7091294924542137231357823445DbRNmg2gF2jIslD4gXBg.JPG)

Some funny new sh*t from BFL :)

An interview with BFL Josh and his fake ASIC box:
http://youtu.be/5ZUPniBo5UQ

Some funny new sh*t from BFL :)

An interview with BFL Josh and his fake ASIC box:
http://youtu.be/5ZUPniBo5UQ


A real photo of the ASIC BOX (miner):
 http://www.picvalley.net/u/2390/7091294924542137231357823445DbRNmg2gF2jIslD4gXBg_m.JPG (http://www.picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2390/7091294924542137231357823445DbRNmg2gF2jIslD4gXBg.JPG)

Yeah, good luck with that.  :)

Let us know how that worked out come January.

ANNOUNCEMENT: BFL just uploaded photos of their mighty ASIC technology:
http://cdn.cnet.com.au/story_media/339286306/photos-dissecting-a-dinosaur-the-commodore-64_25.jpg
 ;D

Well, that's capitalism. Take chances, win big or lose your money.

If BFL does have ASICs, then the people who put their money on the line in pre-orders are going to have a heyday when it first gets released and the difficulty hasn't increased yet. The people who decided to wait will still have a chance to mine, but not until after the difficulty has ramped up.

If BFL doesn't have the ASICs... well. That's highly unfortunate, but hey; you're working with experimental technology that works with a relatively experimental e-currency, you have to expect that things might not turn out according to plan. Invest at your own risk.

I haven't pre-ordered (Although I gave the Jalapeno some serious thought with the low starting price), so I think I'll see how it works when the first people begin to get theirs and think about it.

In the meantime, if the current rally is for real, those people who already paid in bitcoins are falling further behind.

WoW BFL more and more seems like a scam!
Today I learned, that another manufacturer, has posted real pics of their chip, not like BLF's fake pics.

They still have a long way to go but it seems they are way ahead of BFL.
I'd love some comments from those who give BFL money and were thinking they are so smart, and  those who sad that I'm some troll or been payed to talks smack about BFL.

What exactly is that?

Fingers crossed they will get there... soon... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neHHrC3qgIE

Looks real to me this is their old bitforce.

each product "available" is less than $5k.  In the USA, over $5k means it can be taken up in civil court, not small claims.  Small claims court means footwork for the claiment  in the jusidiction of the company.  I bet they refund the $30k to the folks who paid for the big rig to avoid a real hassle.  Then the people who win judgements plus interest still have to collect the money themselves and I bet every identifiable person in BFL claims to not own the company or claims to have just been acting as a "consultant".

As a retired firmware developer, I can say that a project such as this one by BFL is perfectly normal. We use to have a standing rule: Estimate your development time and then double it.  The project leader would accept the your times and then double them again. The final boss would then double the leaders time.  BFL, obviously, doesn't have enough depth in its management to get everything doubled enough to suit its customers.

As a retired firmware developer, I can say that a project such as this one by BFL is perfectly normal. We use to have a standing rule: Estimate your development time and then double it.  The project leader would accept the your times and then double them again. The final boss would then double the leaders time.  BFL, obviously, doesn't have enough depth in its management to get everything doubled enough to suit its customers.

The simplest scam in the world is to offer either something that does not exist or that makes money without doing much of anything, and BFLs products cover both quite well.

Because of that I'd advise people, if they decide to buy these "products" to pay with a credit card (not debit card). Because of the chargeback option.

Your bank will never deny the chargeback and they will back you up in 99% of the cases, especially if you've waited for months and they give you lousy excuses.

Yes I have always sad that if something works well it shouldn't be changed, so that maybe one down but it still remains a big list :D

Since BFL is not delivering, Avalon seems to have a monopoly in the consumer ASIC market, and the lucky receivers of their second batch are making far too much bitcoin in a short period, effectively giving them too much power in the bitcoin economy. There should have been more ASICS, or none at all... The current situation is not good IMO.

Since BFL is not delivering, Avalon seems to have a monopoly in the consumer ASIC market, and the lucky receivers of their second batch are making far too much bitcoin in a short period, effectively giving them too much power in the bitcoin economy. There should have been more ASICS, or none at all... The current situation is not good IMO.

7 billion people, silent BTC revolution, but just two companies producing ASICs. Why?

I think at this point the delay before anyone STARTING now would be too long for people to trust to invest in, most of the BTC/inflow of cash is already diluted into these companies. I mean, I'd do research, and I know a little about chips, but don't work in the field, and nobody's going to really trust anyone else taking their BTC for development when they'd be 'so far behind'... (even though they may still beat some of the asic companies! ;P)

It would be helpful if the mining algorithm could be modified to minimize the impact of processor type.  Supposedly litecoin was designed in address this.  It might not be feasible for bitcoin to change that much at this point, but it's possible that Satoshi considered this early on and isn't concerned with the implications.  Only if we see the network hash rate really spike, and make the difficulty jump with it, will we know the impact on the network as a whole.  Smaller miners, like myself, might just bail if the block mining expectancy jumps by years.