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It's inevitable somethings going to give somewhere.

I *hope* its the grexit....


but there seems to be always a last minute deal.

eventually though there won't.

saw it on cnn it was a last minute bail out, they still have to meet the European central bank

Bailout? It has been rejected by Eurogroup. That is why the Greeks are going ahead with the referendum, on whether they should implement even tougher austerity measures or not. 

And regarding the default, it has been confirmed by Tsiparas that no payment will be made before the deadline (30th June). The referendum is scheduled for 5th July, and only after that date they will make the decision about the payment.

this was i saw on the cnn, i guess from a glance they making seen like a last minute bail out http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/06/27/greek-debt-talks-labropoulou-cnni-nr-bpr.cnn

Bailout? It has been rejected by Eurogroup. That is why the Greeks are going ahead with the referendum, on whether they should implement even tougher austerity measures or not. 

And regarding the default, it has been confirmed by Tsiparas that no payment will be made before the deadline (30th June). The referendum is scheduled for 5th July, and only after that date they will make the decision about the payment.

It seems Greece are never able to pay back on time and always ask for bailout! It cannot be like this forever! But it seems they fall in this dilema, creditors have to extend the loan and bailout Greece otherwise Greece will default!

Slowly, the Greeks will be able to repay their loans.

Allow them to generate the tax revenue, and then they will be able to pay back their debts. The Greek agricultural, real estate, and the tourism sectors have all been hit hard by the EU sanctions on Russia. Their industrial sector is in shambles, due to the tax increases. Exclude Greece from the EU sanctions on Russia, and allow the construction of the Turkish Stream on Greek territory. Slowly, the Greeks will be able to repay their loans.

The Grek debt is not sustainable because the interes ton it is super high and compounded..It has to be restructured, like the allies did for Germany after ww2 and wiped off a shit load of it that's how the German economy took off. Basically the Germans got rewarded for causing the the 2nd world war and the deaths of million..I like Germans don't get me wrong, Greeks can learn from the discipline of German culture but Greeks should get the same respite as the Germans then that is fair play.. THE EU ruined the Greek economy, along with corrupt and overspendign Greek politicians so those politicians that ruined the country should be put on trial as criminals and the Greek debt restructured first.. :D ;D

Greece will rise after that exit. needs time to adjust in new environment,

if this is indeed the case, then other weak euro countries will also decide to leave in order to get the same effect. that will have a huge negative impact on the remaining euro countries.

Exactly!

I have been screaming here for the last 2 weeks or so about the need to restructure the Greek debt, but no one is willing to listen to me. The only way the troika will get (at least a part of) their money back is by restructuring the Greek debt. If the Greek debt is restructured, the local economy will get a boost, thereby increasing the tax revenues. As a result, the Greeks will be able to payback at least a part of their debt.

Sounds like the vibe is the public will vote yes on the referendum.  So no grexit just higher taxes and whatever else they impose.

It seems Greece are never able to pay back on time and always ask for bailout! It cannot be like this forever! But it seems they fall in this dilema, creditors have to extend the loan and bailout Greece otherwise Greece will default!

I have been screaming here for the last 2 weeks or so about the need to restructure the Greek debt, but no one is willing to listen to me.

The only way the troika will get (at least a part of) their money back is by restructuring the Greek debt. If the Greek debt is restructured, the local economy will get a boost, thereby increasing the tax revenues. As a result, the Greeks will be able to payback at least a part of their debt.

They already got a 50% cut on all private debt (all bond holders lost half of their value, whether banks or private persons).
The only requirement was to have a positive balance before interests or loan paybacks.  They didn't manage.


The Greek state doesn't actually have a debt problem, they have a deficit problem.  80% of state spending is on retirement and on public servant salaries and other allowances. 

The point is not so much that the EU wants its money back.  The point is moral hazard.  Greece is small and a few billions could be thrown at it without most EU citizens noticing.  But if Greece gets this deal, then why did Spain, Ireland and Portugal make such efforts ?  Then why wouldn't Italy also go back to some serious deficit spending ?  Hey, why wouldn't even France get its debt restructured ?
One cannot be nice to Greece because it has a totally ill structured state budget doing systematic deficit spending, and ask others to apply severe restructuration.

The Greek debt is not sustainable because the interest on it is super high and compounded..It has to be restructured, like the allies did for Germany after ww2 and wiped off a shit load of it that's how the German economy took off. Basically the Germans got rewarded for causing the the 2nd world war and the deaths of millions..I like Germans don't get me wrong, Greeks can learn from the discipline of German culture but Greeks should get the same respite as the Germans then that is fair play.. THE EU ruined the Greek economy, along with corrupt and overspending Greek politicians so those politicians that ruined the country should be put on trial as criminals and the Greek debt restructured first.. :D ;D

How anyone can keep more money than absolutely necessary in a greek bank at this time is completely beyond me. The way I see it, it is virtually a certainty that there will be capital controls and/or deposit confiscation in the near future.

I agree why would you keep your money in a bank right now based on the fact that 'they might not close on Monday'. If you withdraw you lose nothing. If you don't withdraw you could lose an unknown amount. There is only one logical choice.

Right now, the YES camp is ahead of NO, by some 10 points or so. Tsiparas is vigorously campaigning for a NO vote. That said, some 20% of the voters are not decided, and they can potentially swing the results. I am still hopeful that some last minute deal will be reached before July 5th, thereby avoiding the need for a referendum.

How anyone can keep more money than absolutely necessary in a greek bank at this time is completely beyond me. The way I see it, it is virtually a certainty that there will be capital controls and/or deposit confiscation in the near future.

BTC has had weeks to become attractive to Greeks but it doesn't seem to have caught on. Why is that? I can only guess that they are so deluded with a socialist mindset that they really expect someone else to bail them out yet again, so they haven't turned to BTC. What do you think?

I am keeping money (savings) in the bank because we need working banks instead of paper cash.
Participation comes with responsibilities. True for every system either political or financial

edit: FYI I'll vote NO, and if it comes to it vote yes on Grexit

I am Greek but live outside of Greece as I was born a Brit..am in Cyprus now but all i want to say is that if I were in Greece I would vote no myself. The situation is far more complicated than a lot of number crunchers here want to point out..If TSIPRAS AND SYRIZA leave then it will open the door to more corruption and bad governance that got Greece herein the first place. They all blame this government for the emss but it was the previous governments that created all this shit in the first place. The past stupid governments shouldn't have bought those high risk ninja mortgage derivatives from wall st, also they shouldn't have just been yes men lackeys to every EU demand.. Both the U.S and the EU want SYRIZA government to fall because they don't want this kind of leftist government in power that is trying to change the status quo..if the Greek people vote yes and don't realise what is happening to them then they are truly f*cked .. Sorry fro my french, but if they vote NO at least they go down with some self respect and dignity and then if things get too bad they can get off their butts and rebuild the country from scratch. This is why I even built my own crypto currency with the hope that one day I may create a whole new fully functioning economic system where every one is thriving...not just the 1% Elite.

Completely agree with your arguments. Right now, Tsiparas and SYRIZA are the only things which are standing in between the troika and the complete slavery of the Greek people. Recently Tsiparas has taken some pro-Russian and anti-troika decisions, so I can undestand why the Americans and the Germans want to topple him.

I will vote "NO' for revenge.

The Greek debt is not sustainable because the interest on it is super high and compounded..It has to be restructured, like the allies did for Germany after ww2 and wiped off a shit load of it that's how the German economy took off. Basically the Germans got rewarded for causing the the 2nd world war and the deaths of millions..I like Germans don't get me wrong, Greeks can learn from the discipline of German culture but Greeks should get the same respite as the Germans then that is fair play.. THE EU ruined the Greek economy, along with corrupt and overspending Greek politicians so those politicians that ruined the country should be put on trial as criminals and the Greek debt restructured first.. :D ;D

Revenge for what? For not getting money for free?

Apart from that it will not be revenge it will be a great relief for the rest of the Eurozone, because then it's finally clear that the Greek people do not want to stay and therefore do not need more support.

Hopefully this outright childish comedy comes to an end soon.

ya.ya.yo!

The bankers and politicians ruined it.  The people do not deserve to suffer.

The bankers and politicians ruined it.  The people do not deserve to suffer.

7. ALL THE GREEKS THAT BETRAYED THEIR COUNTRY BY TAKING OUT HOARDS OF BLACK MONEY INCLUDING PAST GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS SHOULD GET THEIR ASSETS FROZEN AND BE PUT ON TRIAL FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

9. EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS ON LEARNING TO BE USEFUL IN SOCIETY AND RESOURCEFUL..MANDATORY ALSO FOR ADULTS TO DO 2 HOURS COMMUNITY SERVICE IF THEY ARE PHYSICALLY ABLE AND IF WEALTHY ENOUGH TO CONTRIBUTE A LITTLE SOMETHING TO THE COMMON GOOD TOG ET THE COUNTRY ON ITS FEET..

Grexit , Brexit and Texasexit...  ;D

MY SOLUTION FOR GREECE:
1. VOTE NO IN THE REFERENDUM..
2. CREATE THEIR OWN DIGITAL CURRENCY BACKED BY PUBLIC AND PRIVATE ASSETS..
3. SEND HALF OF THE POPULATION OF THE BIG CITIES WHO HAVE NO JOBS AND INTO THE COUNTRYSIDE OPENING KIBBUTZ / COOPERATIVE STYLE MINI VILLAGES..
4. CREATE COOPS SO EVERYONE WORKING HAS A SAY AND A DIRECT OWNERSHIP/PART OF PROFITS OF ALL INDUSTRIES ETC..
5. OPEN A COOPERATIVE BANK AS A CENTRAL BANK THAT AGAIN IS OWNED BY THE WHOLE NATION SO AS IT GETS
PROFITABLE THE ROI IS SHARED AMONG THE WHOLE NATION..also generating more jobs, mini cooperative, semi resource based/cooperative economy.
6. BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE ECO FRIENDLY more cheaper than normal concrete shit that is both uneconomical and stupid..so EVERY FAMILY IS HOUSED AND FED..
7. ALL THE GREEKS THAT BETRAYED THEIR COUNTRY BY TAKING OUT HOARDS OF BLACK MONEY INCLUDING PAST GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS SHOULD GET THEIR ASSETS FROZEN AND BE PUT ON TRIAL FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
8. EDUCATION ON SOUND FISCAL POLICY AND MONEY MANAGEMENT , MANDATORY IN ALL SCHOOLS AND KIDS SHOULD BE TAUGHT TO SAVE AND LIVE WITHIN THEIR MEANS..NO BORROWING..
9. EDUCATION IN SCHOOLS ON LEARNING TO BE USEFUL IN SOCIETY AND RESOURCEFUL..MANDATORY ALSO FOR ADULTS TO DO 2 HOURS COMMUNITY SERVICE IF THEY ARE PHYSICALLY ABLE AND IF WEALTHY ENOUGH TO CONTRIBUTE A LITTLE SOMETHING TO THE COMMON GOOD TOG ET THE COUNTRY ON ITS FEET..

Sorry for the caps but that is just my blueprint for a sound resourceful economy that is sustainable and fair.. :)

yeah but the "brexit" will be because the pound >>>EU.

I am so glad the UK never entered with the EU best decision ever. Hopefully the UK/England will leave the EU. The UK can do much much better alone.

Khmer Rouge style.

Greeks really seem to like living under a communist dictatorship... how about showing some personal initiative (start some business)?

Thought the same. ;D

Greeks really seem to like living under a communist dictatorship... how about showing some personal initiative (start some business)?

The greedy banks, politicians, rich Greeks and what not are only the most shiny examples of a whole nation accustomed to central planning and corruption. Instead of blaming others it would be very healthy for the Greek people to start thinking about their own behavior.

ya.ya.yo!

I am so glad the UK never entered with the EU best decision ever. Hopefully the UK/England will leave the EU. The UK can do much much better alone.

Right now the United Kingdom is playing second fiddle to Germany in the European Union. All the major decisions are taken by Germany (and to a certain extent France), with the UK being completely sidelined. A good example is the recent migrant crisis in the Mediterranean. I can’t see any major benefits for the Brits from their EU membership. 

Guys, the European leaders insist that there is no longer any serious risk from contagion now that the EMU bail-out fund (ESM) is in place and the ECB has full power to act as a lender of last resort, if necessary by buying the bonds of vulnerable states on a mass scale.

So you think TTIP will be any better?

I came to know from Huffingpost that German Chancellor Angela Merkel will be responsible for the Greece exit from the Euro zone , I do not know how far it is true, since Germany is the euro monetary union’s largest economy and, arguably, its most powerful voice on the international stage. With one decision of Angela Merkel, Greece fate would be either start again for good or end.

you have to understand that this right now is a classic political fight.

the german goverment is trying to increase the pressure to the maximum.
i honestly dont think that either the germans/eurozone nor greece is ready for maximum pain right now.

it will be a huge blow to the euro and the eu and i doubt that we will just recover easily from it.

It's certainly true that a currency that could be devalued could increase competitiveness. That could help Greek exporters. It would remove some important excuses for Greek failure - Summers.

It's certainly true that a currency that could be devalued could increase competitiveness. That could help Greek exporters. It would remove some important excuses for Greek failure - Summers.

Yes, the devaluation of the currency can definitely open roads for greek exporters, and then there would be no excuses left for all of these apparent failures.

But at the same time, the people will be losing a major part of their savings, and this will have an impact on the long term. Only the bankers will get rich from the currency devaluation.

Let's examine on who will lose how much.  ;D

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/78D6/production/_83943903_who_owns_greeces_deb_v2_624.png

Germany and France will be devastated, while the UK will be able to escape without much damage. The Greek default will be a serious blow to the German dominance in the European Union.

Imho, they will loose only ''monitor screen money'', not the real one

It's inevitable somethings going to give somewhere.

I *hope* its the grexit....


but there seems to be always a last minute deal.

eventually though there won't.

uhh so what happened with Greece? no referendum and they said just Yes, more money from EU? how stupid they are..

Let's examine on who will lose how much.  ;D

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/78D6/production/_83943903_who_owns_greeces_deb_v2_624.png

Germany and France will be devastated, while the UK will be able to escape without much damage. The Greek default will be a serious blow to the German dominance in the European Union.

Why we recommend a NO in the referendum – in 6 short bullet points
Posted on July 1, 2015 by yanisv

Negotiations have stalled because Greece’s creditors (a) refused to reduce our un-payable public debt and (b) insisted that it should be repaid ‘parametrically’ by the weakest members of our society, their children and their grandchildren

The IMF, the United States’ government, many other governments around the globe, and most independent economists believe — along with us — that the debt must be restructured.

The Eurogroup had previously (November 2012) conceded that the debt ought to be restructured but is refusing to commit to a debt restructure
Since the announcement of the referendum, official Europe has sent signals that they are ready to discuss debt restructuring. These signals show that official Europe too would vote NO on its own ‘final’ offer.

Greece will stay in the euro.  Deposits in Greece’s banks are safe.  Creditors have chosen the strategy of blackmail based on bank closures. The current impasse is due to this choice by the creditors and not by the Greek government discontinuing the negotiations or any Greek thoughts of Grexit and devaluation. Greece’s place in the Eurozone and in the European Union is non-negotiable.

The future demands a proud Greece within the Eurozone and at the heart of Europe. This future demands that Greeks say a big NO on Sunday, that we stay in the Euro Area, and that, with the power vested upon us by that NO, we renegotiate Greece’s public debt as well as the distribution of burdens between the haves and the have nots.

This is just in from Yanis Varoufakis blog:



http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/01/why-we-recommend-a-no-in-the-referendum-in-6-short-bullet-points/

So basically they want a loan modification, just like anyone who wanted one back in 2008, but very few got it.

The question is, if they have no way paying it, the modification of their debt still become debt imo.

The whole Eurozone crisis has shown how a monetary union without a political union is worthless.

Just because of one state, it is not fair to blame the monetary union, it has few advantages such as reduction of transactions cost and the avoidance of unnecessary adjustment burdens in the real economy.

The whole Eurozone crisis has shown how a monetary union without a political union is worthless.

Would that mean that bitcoin is hopeless ?  As this is a world monetary union without any hope for a political union ?
And is that also the reason why gold doesn't work out ?

Would that mean that bitcoin is hopeless ?  As this is a world monetary union without any hope for a political union ?
And is that also the reason why gold doesn't work out ?

i don't think it has to do with that, it is the contrary, it show that one entity cannot control well the money that belongs to multiple entity, and the whole printing mania has helped sustaining their crisis a lot

also gold isn't really demostrative, of a thing that isn't centralized

Grexit is coming. EU is ready?

According to this article: http://www.enikonomia.gr/timeliness/27275,Baroyfakhs-Exoyme-symfwnia-poy-8a-ypografame-amesa.html
mr Varoufakis revealed to the Channel 4's journalist that "Right now we have a proposal that we'd accept right away". And continues: "since we announced the referendum, we've been bombarded with offers that if we had earlier, we'd never go for a referendum".

So, it's basically a "means of pressure" in order to achieve a viable deal that won't ruin the country with more austerity measures and deliver the long awaited economic (and thus social) growth. Besides, it's very well known that EVEN A COUNTRY WANTED, they couldn't flee the Eurozone. It's not documented nor allowed by the initial treaty. So, no Grexit.

If there's a "Yes" (unlikely) - it would mean more austerity measures, more recession and Greece will eventually be the worst place to live in the EU. If there's a "No" Tsipras will have an opportunity to talk on a fresh basis and get a better deal (backed up by the voters).

What's significant though is the fact that many "everyday" people ask about bitcoin here. How they can buy it - how to use it, etc. People start to "get" it. That's the best part of this crisis.

Grexit is ?

the exit of greece from europe, it would only be benefical for europe at this point it's not good for europe to continue lending them money that they cannot return

better to take them out

Greek banks prepare plan to raid deposits to avert collapse - Financial Times

The plans, which call for a “haircut” of at least 30 per cent on deposits above €8,000, sketch out an increasingly likely scenario for at least one bank, the sources said.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9963b74c-219c-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html

no, just no. its only 90 billion over 5 years - tbh. that is more or less just pocketchange for the german state.
this here is about credibility and reliability of the EURO and the eurozone.

Greek official denies this and calls for propaganda from FT. I don't see this is an possible scenario though, but just in case it is, I even don't believe they will break the 100,000 Euro rule that the EU has signed. This is just another means of pressure for the upcoming referendum.

Link:
https://news.makedonias.gr/132330/%CE%B7-%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CE%B1-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%B7-%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%88%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%B4%CE%B5%CE%B9-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%83-ft-%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84/

Do you think that €90 billion is a pocket change for Germany?

Definitely not. Even for the United States, €90 billion would have been a significant amount of money. Do you know that the total German tax revenues are around €330 billion per year? If they lose €90 billion, then it will represent a black hole of 6% of their tax revenues, for a period of five years. This will wipe-out the German budget surplus, and will start a recession in Germany.

I agree. Do you *really* see this happening though? Is there a way? I think that if ANYONE deploys ANY tactics for an "exit" whether it's a GR-or BR or AU, the ship will have a breach and one by one countries will begin to step out. Nothing to worry about though. Germany will still be there... ;)

According to this article: http://www.enikonomia.gr/timeliness/27275,Baroyfakhs-Exoyme-symfwnia-poy-8a-ypografame-amesa.html
mr Varoufakis revealed to the Channel 4's journalist that "Right now we have a proposal that we'd accept right away". And continues: "since we announced the referendum, we've been bombarded with offers that if we had earlier, we'd never go for a referendum".

So, it's basically a "means of pressure" in order to achieve a viable deal that won't ruin the country with more austerity measures and deliver the long awaited economic (and thus social) growth. Besides, it's very well known that EVEN A COUNTRY WANTED, they couldn't flee the Eurozone. It's not documented nor allowed by the initial treaty. So, no Grexit.

What's significant though is the fact that many "everyday" people ask about bitcoin here. How they can buy it - how to use it, etc. People start to "get" it. That's the best part of this crisis.

I agree. Do you *really* see this happening though? Is there a way? I think that if ANYONE deploys ANY tactics for an "exit" whether it's a GR-or BR or AU, the ship will have a breach and one by one countries will begin to step out. Nothing to worry about though. Germany will still be there... ;)

If many countries desire leaving the Eurozone, then why should one try to stop them ?

'just 90BILLION EUROS'. Are you kidding me? Exactly, it would create a black hole in their economy. A period of 5years or maybe more, the recession would hit Germany because of the loss of this huge sum of money. It is a big amount for all countries, man. if a country is not making good use of its surplus budget, it is indirectly loss for them too.

please look at the german budget and tell me if there is deficit or surplus and since when. you could also add the rating of german solvency.
germany could easily take 20 billion in debt every year for the next 5 years.

my point still stands, a loss off 90 billion in greece would not damage germany on a important scale.

Do you think that €90 billion is a pocket change for Germany?

Definitely not. Even for the United States, €90 billion would have been a significant amount of money. Do you know that the total German tax revenues are around €330 billion per year? If they lose €90 billion, then it will represent a black hole of 6% of their tax revenues, for a period of five years. This will wipe-out the German budget surplus, and will start a recession in Germany.

I heard about that many people have changed their stance from no to yes since bank started to limit withdraw. It seems banks still have the control, unless people's knowledge about money improves, they will still be the slave of bankers for a foreseeable future

ECB is printing €60 billion per month, so it is a pocket change

Wrong. The ECB is printing €60 billion per year, and not per month. And only a small part of this is printed in Germany. Check this:

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/euro/circulation/html/index.en.html

For the month of May 2015, the ECB printed banknotes worth €5,474,705,800. Divided in to:

€5  - 7,570,130 notes worth €37,850,650
€10 - 15,418,060 notes worth €154,180,560
€20 - 14,236,370 notes worth €284,727,440
€50 - 71,172,090 notes worth €3,558,604,250
€100-12,410,700 notes worth €1,241,069,600
€200-117,130 notes worth €23,426,800
€500-349,690 notes worth €174,846,500

Wrong. The ECB is printing €60 billion per year, and not per month. And only a small part of this is printed in Germany. Check this:

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/euro/circulation/html/index.en.html

For the month of May 2015, the ECB printed banknotes worth €5,474,705,800. Divided in to:

€5  - 7,570,130 notes worth €37,850,650
€10 - 15,418,060 notes worth €154,180,560
€20 - 14,236,370 notes worth €284,727,440
€50 - 71,172,090 notes worth €3,558,604,250
€100-12,410,700 notes worth €1,241,069,600
€200-117,130 notes worth €23,426,800
€500-349,690 notes worth €174,846,500

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ecb-announces-stimulus-plan-1421931011

You are halfwrong.
60 billion € per month for atleast a year.
What do you think was the reason for the dramatic loss against the dollar and the 50% increase in stock prices?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ecb-announces-stimulus-plan-1421931011

You are halfwrong.
60 billion € per month for atleast a year.
What do you think was the reason for the dramatic loss against the dollar and the 50% increase in stock prices?

Why doesn't USA help Greece paying the debt? put your money where your mouth is, once again.

Bonds are different from banknotes. They are not real money. And the over-printing of the Euro banknotes is not the real reason why the currency lost its exchange value against the US Dollar. The Euro banknote market cap is increasing at a rate of around 6% per year, which is almost the same rate as that of the US Dollar. The reasons why it went down are: 1.Greek crisis 2. Strong dollar.

They are the ones that got the first hit from the Banksters back in 2008; remember Lehman Bros? They faced it by printing more money 'cause "Too Big To Fail". IMHO, they have every right to "advise politely" the IMF since they have a pretty big amount invested in there (https://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/memdir/members.aspx). Don't forget; IMF was created NOT to "save" countries, but to "earn" money! They're an international bank! Failing to do so properly is... well... bad?

Propaganda is king everywhere right now, I don't blame anyone that "got it" wrong. But if you're from Germany (or can speak German) please watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDbyMX3NHhc

It's not from the Greek television. It's the ARD, on the show "Monitor" on July 2nd 2015.

Very good show and with some really important facts about the greece crisis.
Although there are critical voices against the greece policies of frau merkel the majority of german news is pro austerity and rather supportive to a grexit in the case of a No.

First of, there's no official directive for a country to leave the Eurozone. The initial treaty failed to introduce such an "option". I believe you're smart enough to understand why...

Second: Having another currency and still being into the Eurozone? Hmm... let me think. No I cannot think of any other country doing so... Oh wait! England!

Third: Do you really think that mr. Juncker is telling the truth and Yanis doesn't? Why wouldn't be vice versa?

Eurozone has been created to advance the civilization to the next level. If the experiment fails because the fat lady is afraid to understand that the GLOBAL economy is failing - and prefers to address it only to a single country, then I'll say it as politely as I can:

By all means, let Greece go.

Nobody is telling the truth, exept Angela Merkel, because she can decide.  Anything that is decided in the Eurogroup, has to be confirmed in the Bundestag  (the German parliament).

It is not surprising that the very idea of a referendum would provoke the ire of the eurozone authorities. Unlike the European Union, which has a different history, the eurozone project has become a fundamentally anti-democratic project. It has to be; the people currently running it want to reverse, as much as possible, decades of social progress on issues that are vital to Europeans.

But you don't have to take my word for it: there is a paper trail of thousands of pages that spell out their political agenda. The IMF conducts regular consultations with member governments under Article IV of its charter, and these result in papers which contain policy recommendations. There were 67 such consultations for EU countries during the four years of 2008 to 2011, and the pattern was striking: budget tightening was recommended in all 27 countries, with spending cuts generally favored over tax increases.

Cutting health care and pension spending, reducing eligibility for disability and unemployment compensation, raising retirement ages and increasing labor supply were also overwhelmingly common recommendations.

The European authorities took advantage of the crisis and post-crisis years to impose parts of this agenda on the weaker eurozone economies: Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland and most brutally of all, Greece. More than 20 governments fell as a result, until finally, in Greece on January 25, a government was elected that said no. The goal of the European authorities, therefore, is to topple this government. This has been apparent since the ECB cut off its main line of credit to Greece on February 4.

When do the polls close and when will we know?

But... what if everybody asked for their money back?
 Why Germany, back then was eligible for a "gift" and Greece now is not?

My heart goes out to the people in Greece. That's the reality it needs to be faced

Polls will close at 19:00 Athens timezone http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/greece/athens and I believe we will know 1-2 hours afterwards

Simply, because the first time that one didn't do that, they started WWII.  WWII is essentially the result from NOT bailing out Germany's debt after Versailles.  So to avoid a repetition of that, we bailed them out.

Greece didn't start a war, and probably won't start a war, so one doesn't have to bail them out.


That said, Greece can declare itself bankrupt which it probably will if the "no" vote wins, and if Angela puts a middle finger up (which she might probably do).
In that case, Greece bailed itself out.

It will be an interesting day.
I'm fairly confident it will be a vote against the Euro their will be an exit poll so it will give some sentiment during the day but seeing as it will be close either way we really may not know until a few hours after.

The older guys have seen the depreciation of drachma.
It isn't going to be easy to decide to go back.

One of the strangest referendums I have ever heard about in my entire life. Two extreme-right parties (Xρυσή Aυγή and Aνεξάρτητoι Έλληνες) and one extreme-left party (ΣYPIZA) supporting the NO vote, while all the mainstream parties supporting the YES camp. The first example of the extreme right and the extreme left coming together in Greece.  ;D

'just 90BILLION EUROS'. Are you kidding me? Exactly, it would create a black hole in their economy. A period of 5years or maybe more, the recession would hit Germany because of the loss of this huge sum of money. It is a big amount for all countries, man. if a country is not making good use of its surplus budget, it is indirectly loss for them too.

I'm not so sure about that...

https://i.imgur.com/qbRz3gn.jpg

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-04/why-euro-finished


But in any case this voting has nothing to do with Euro or Drachma,  Europe or out of Europe, those dilemas are brought up  by the old corrupt politicians in Greece and the media in Greece that suport them in order to scare the voters(also lets not forget ECB and lots of European politicians that decided to intervene in favor of "Yes" in an attemp to remove Tripras from power, that was their plan from day one! The economic strangle of Greece until people revolt against Tsipras, my estimation is that they failed.)

Gap between No & Yes will be more than 4%.

"No" will probably reach the 55-58% by the end of the night

Seems we will wake up in a new europe tommorow

"EU project is now dying. It’s fantastic to see the courage of the Greek people in the face of political and economic bullying from Brussels."

source: https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/617731260740411392

and he is just right as always. hopefully, this stupid EU project just start disbanding and other similar news will follow..finally.

Seems we will wake up in a new europe tommorow

Sure. But it is really bad news, if you own equities or mutual funds. The stock markets are going to bleed tomorrow. The indices will crash, and trillions of USD in investor wealth will be wiped out. The Frankfurt Stock Exchange will be a toast tomorrow. Expect the DAX to dip by as much as 5% to 7%. Good time to do some short selling, if you ask me.  ;D

Seems we will wake up in a new europe tommorow

I'm not so sure about that...

https://i.imgur.com/qbRz3gn.jpg

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-04/why-euro-finished


But in any case this voting has nothing to do with Euro or Drachma,  Europe or out of Europe, those dilemas are brought up  by the old corrupt politicians in Greece and the media in Greece that suport them in order to scare the voters(also lets not forget ECB and lots of European politicians that decided to intervene in favor of "Yes" in an attemp to remove Tripras from power, that was their plan from day one! The economic strangle of Greece until people revolt against Tsipras, my estimation is that they failed.)

It will be rude awakening tomorrow when the ECB decides not to raise the ELA level.
Tomorrow is the last day that Euro's will come out of Greek ATM machines.

I am very curious to see what will happen now..

I can tell you my opinion:)

ECB will stop supporting Greece banks and Greeks will start printing own and one of the oldest currency again - Drachma. This is amazing impulse for every anti-euro guys (Jean-Marie Le Pen in FR or UKIP in UK). There may be also new Schengen border..

amazing times.

I think the Greeks showed the EU that nothing can be pushed too much.

Just the opposite. It's not the EU that has no time left.
When ECB will not raise ELA tomorrow, banks and the government will have no more cash in 1 or 2 days.
So no more withdrawels from your account, no more pensions/government salaries will be paid, no more food/gasoline/... will enter the country. Tourists will leave because the hotels won't be able to provide food. Even Credit card companies could stop processing transactions inside Greece.
How long do you suppose the Greek government will survive that? 1 week, 2 weeks ??

You don't really expect EVERY European politician will roll over because of this vote ?
The Greek voted no to Europe so Europe will simply stop funding Greece.
It's been made very clear to the Greek that this was the outcome when voting no.

As EU we should automatically block all Greek bank accounts everywhere in Europe, and preferably also in Switserland.

What a great text; very bright new ideas! I find this attitude of yours pretty democratic; solidarity excels from your phrases while your thesis represents every single human into the EU. Let me ask a naive question though since your mental abilities clearly overcome mine.

Do you think this is the way things should go from now on? A regional entity that was created with the idea of economic growth, equality, exchange of ideas should work this thing out like this? Should the EU just ignore the democratic demand of 62% of a member state? Pardon my ignorance but I fail to comprehend how this could work out this time, the next time and so forth...

PS:
Congrats JohanM. You're a true EU believer!
PS2:
Is it true that Germany forced 3000eur as max daily withdrawal since Friday? Tick Tock Johan. Tick Tock...

What a great text; very bright new ideas! I find this attitude of yours pretty democratic; solidarity excels from your phrases while your thesis represents every single human into the EU. Let me ask a naive question though since your mental abilities clearly overcome mine.

Do you think this is the way things should go from now on? A regional entity that was created with the idea of economic growth, equality, exchange of ideas should work this thing out like this? Should the EU just ignore the democratic demand of 62% of a member state? Pardon my ignorance but I fail to comprehend how this could work out this time, the next time and so forth...

PS:
Congrats JohanM. You're a true EU believer!
PS2:
Is it true that Germany forced 3000eur as max daily withdrawal since Friday? Tick Tock Johan. Tick Tock...
PS3:
http://s17.postimg.org/61mziinu7/referendum_Greece.jpg

Thank you macsga I was going to reply similarly.

Anyway we shall see in the next days. I do think that this vote is historical because, as I said, it's the first time since the EU that a population refuse to follow blindly what the EU says. And I'm sorry but a part from the freedom of movement there's nothing good coming from the EU instituition.

Well, this has to change. Change is always coming from the people who have the ability to think differently than the masses; the missfits. Directives are being carved by circumstance to face specific situations. This is the case we have now in our hands. A brand new situation. We have a region that is being governed by officials that for the last 5 years all they did is wrong.

We as Greeks today voted for a "No" to the austerity measures proposed by ECB/IMF/EU last week (I leave aside the fact that they took it back just when the referendum had been announced). Now, us the 62% of the Greeks we have to ask a new question to the EU officials:

Do we want a better Europe?

If the answer is "Yes", then Greece will be the one to introduce the "how we build it" directives. If the answer is "No" I'm afraid Greece will have to work itself out of there ASAP. We didn't want and we didn't sign for such a coalition... and I'm sure it will be better off alone.

PS: Thanks for your kind words.

What if Greek banks start to print euro? 50 billion a month? :D

http://i57.tinypic.com/33lf76r.jpg

No further comments...  ;D

When written in Chinese, the word 'crisis' is composed of two characters. One represents danger and the other represents opportunity.

Since 2010 greek goverments (PASOK & Nea Dimokratia) were nothing more than "YES Sir".

This is now changed! Greek goverment has the power to say an official BIG "NO" to the austerity measures proposed by the IMF and change the negotiation tactics. ECB will HAVE to raise ELA first thing tomorrow morning, and EuroGroup will have to make new decisions regarding the future of EU.

Simple as that.

I salute the people of Greece for their vote. Once again, they teach a lesson to the people of Europe.

What if Greek banks start to print euro? 50 billion a month? :D

Maybe. But someone should also teach them a lesson. Their way how they live and run the country is no longer possible.

Yes the IMF is desperate to get their hands on their money owed so they are trying hard to get everyone round the table for talks again so that they gradually get what they want and benefit themselves

I think like Frau Merkel said: Europe cannot overlook the results of the referendum. That is why we will see talks starting again today or tommorow.

As i can tell from german news they are decreasing the grexit populism and are talking in a much more supportive way of the greece question. Even talking about debt relief.


Also it seems the US is pro Greece, im reading a lot of articles like this:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/06/germany-1953-greece-2015-economic-marshall-plan-debt-relief

The result of the referendum is a "No". It is the Grexit time. Greeks need to restructure their policies ,now that they're out of Euro Zone. Many subsidies and benefits have been taken away from it. There is no time to back down now, the economy needs a boost.

It is getting real hard in Europe now russia said it will help Greece if they bailout

Russia should maybe focus helping their own people instead of donating Greeks, because compare to Germany, they are in deep shit:) those games just putting political interests over human needs..

Let's just say that this is not certain yet and many things have to be considered in order for such an exit to happen. Even in Germany the rhetoric has been changed. FWIW: I don't see this as a bad thing though; for Greece that is... ;)

So this means that when they axe the euro (bound to happen) they will make their own currency?
They are in talks with Russia as we speak. Maybe Putin will pay off the economies debt in exchange for loyality to them.

What if Greek banks start to print euro? 50 billion a month? :D

As per the European Union rules and regulations, the National Bank of Greece has the right to print/mint Euro banknotes and coins, just like all the other national central banks in the EU. However, this does not mean that they can print any amount of Euros as they want. They can print only as many notes, as the Emergency Liquidity Assistance (ELA) allows.  

Five Reasons Why The Greeks Were Right
 
On Sunday, Greek citizens overwhelming rejected the bailout plan penned by its creditors. Subsequently, many observers have condemned the Greeks as lazy, ungrateful and unwilling to accept the consequences of their spendthrift ways.

But the Greeks were right to say no. What lenders were trying to force upon them is patently unfair and ultimately destructive to the entire EU. The real problems are inherent to the euro system itself and treating Greece like an irresponsible teenager who must be scolded by their parents is both a mis-diagnosis and a guarantee of continued problems.