Grexit

[Amph]

ECB is printing €60 billion per month, so it is a pocket change

Wrong. The ECB is printing €60 billion per year, and not per month. And only a small part of this is printed in Germany. Check this:

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/euro/circulation/html/index.en.html

For the month of May 2015, the ECB printed banknotes worth €5,474,705,800. Divided in to:

€5  - 7,570,130 notes worth €37,850,650
€10 - 15,418,060 notes worth €154,180,560
€20 - 14,236,370 notes worth €284,727,440
€50 - 71,172,090 notes worth €3,558,604,250
€100-12,410,700 notes worth €1,241,069,600
€200-117,130 notes worth €23,426,800
€500-349,690 notes worth €174,846,500

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ecb-announces-stimulus-plan-1421931011

You are halfwrong.
60 billion € per month for atleast a year.
What do you think was the reason for the dramatic loss against the dollar and the 50% increase in stock prices?

so the grexit has indirectly caused the euro loss against the dollar? also accelerated by other european countries with similiar issue, which were calling for loans, i presume, right?

[macsga]

Even though I can't test it for its originality, there's a letter from the USofA Congress to mrs Lagarde of the IMF concerning Greece:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/270323472/Congressional-Letter-to-Lagarde-070215-1

[neurotypical]

Why doesn't USA help Greece paying the debt? put your money where your mouth is, once again.

[bryant.coleman]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ecb-announces-stimulus-plan-1421931011

You are halfwrong.
60 billion € per month for atleast a year.
What do you think was the reason for the dramatic loss against the dollar and the 50% increase in stock prices?

Bonds are different from banknotes. They are not real money. And the over-printing of the Euro banknotes is not the real reason why the currency lost its exchange value against the US Dollar. The Euro banknote market cap is increasing at a rate of around 6% per year, which is almost the same rate as that of the US Dollar. The reasons why it went down are: 1.Greek crisis 2. Strong dollar.

[macsga]

Why doesn't USA help Greece paying the debt? put your money where your mouth is, once again.

They are the ones that got the first hit from the Banksters back in 2008; remember Lehman Bros? They faced it by printing more money 'cause "Too Big To Fail". IMHO, they have every right to "advise politely" the IMF since they have a pretty big amount invested in there (https://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/memdir/members.aspx). Don't forget; IMF was created NOT to "save" countries, but to "earn" money! They're an international bank! Failing to do so properly is... well... bad?

Propaganda is king everywhere right now, I don't blame anyone that "got it" wrong. But if you're from Germany (or can speak German) please watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDbyMX3NHhc

It's not from the Greek television. It's the ARD, on the show "Monitor" on July 2nd 2015.

[criptix]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ecb-announces-stimulus-plan-1421931011

You are halfwrong.
60 billion € per month for atleast a year.
What do you think was the reason for the dramatic loss against the dollar and the 50% increase in stock prices?

Bonds are different from banknotes. They are not real money. And the over-printing of the Euro banknotes is not the real reason why the currency lost its exchange value against the US Dollar. The Euro banknote market cap is increasing at a rate of around 6% per year, which is almost the same rate as that of the US Dollar. The reasons why it went down are: 1.Greek crisis 2. Strong dollar.

The ECB is buying 50 billion € worth of government bonds and 10 billion € worth of securities each month from certain EU nations except greece and cyprus ( they have/had their own aid programme).
The goal is to give corporations and end consumer new fresh money through (easy) credits.
the 60 billion per month are very real and are one of the main reasons for the weak euro (besides the chaotic economical outlook of the eurozone).

Btw. If you look at numbers greece had the same economical power then Hessen - one of the 16 german federate states.
Saying greece alone is at fault for the euro crisis is just wrong.

[criptix]

Why doesn't USA help Greece paying the debt? put your money where your mouth is, once again.

They are the ones that got the first hit from the Banksters back in 2008; remember Lehman Bros? They faced it by printing more money 'cause "Too Big To Fail". IMHO, they have every right to "advise politely" the IMF since they have a pretty big amount invested in there (https://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/memdir/members.aspx). Don't forget; IMF was created NOT to "save" countries, but to "earn" money! They're an international bank! Failing to do so properly is... well... bad?

Propaganda is king everywhere right now, I don't blame anyone that "got it" wrong. But if you're from Germany (or can speak German) please watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDbyMX3NHhc

It's not from the Greek television. It's the ARD, on the show "Monitor" on July 2nd 2015.

Very good show and with some really important facts about the greece crisis.
Although there are critical voices against the greece policies of frau merkel the majority of german news is pro austerity and rather supportive to a grexit in the case of a No.

[macsga]

Very good show and with some really important facts about the greece crisis.
Although there are critical voices against the greece policies of frau merkel the majority of german news is pro austerity and rather supportive to a grexit in the case of a No.

They only have this policy to cover the most inalienable truth: "That the economic & political fracture of the EU needs a crucial update". It's a no brainer if you think about it. Would you decide over a country's financial death in order to keep the leash tight for the others not to ask for more? Is this the reason that EU has been formed in the first place? Financial enslavement? We ought to offer as partners what we have to the others.

We have olive oil, we have tourism, others have milk and car manufacturing. We're supposed to work together for a better common future. We're not supposed to form a "governmental puppet show" with appointed people that have been promoting what the strongest commands. That's not what we signed for.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/greeces-debt-burden-the-truth-finally-emerges

Edit:
‘We’ve made hope return to Europe’ – in conversation with Paul Mason on Ch4

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/04/weve-made-hope-return-to-europe-in-conversation-with-paul-mason-on-ch4/

[foxbitcoin]

part of the problem is that the Greek simply don't want to accept that they're in a tough spot and certainly don't want to carry that burden. Which is why they keep demanding that other countries step in and solve it for them.

[dinofelis]

First of, there's no official directive for a country to leave the Eurozone. The initial treaty failed to introduce such an "option". I believe you're smart enough to understand why...

The point is of course that it doesn't matter if you are "in" it or not.  The question is if you are USING Euros.

Second: Having another currency and still being into the Eurozone? Hmm... let me think. No I cannot think of any other country doing so... Oh wait! England!

GB is not in the Eurozone.  It is in the EU, but not in the Eurozone, like 10 out of the 28 EU countries, which have kept their own currency (like Sweden, Denmark, ....).

Third: Do you really think that mr. Juncker is telling the truth and Yanis doesn't? Why wouldn't be vice versa?

Nobody is telling the truth, exept Angela Merkel, because she can decide.  Anything that is decided in the Eurogroup, has to be confirmed in the Bundestag  (the German parliament).

Eurozone has been created to advance the civilization to the next level. If the experiment fails because the fat lady is afraid to understand that the GLOBAL economy is failing - and prefers to address it only to a single country, then I'll say it as politely as I can:

By all means, let Greece go.

I think that's what she's after in the first place.

[minerbit hill]

Here's a good article that explains how this happened:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/03/18-key-facts-about-greece-that-will-leave-you-totally-up-to-date-about-a-huge-crisis/

[macsga]

Nobody is telling the truth, exept Angela Merkel, because she can decide.  Anything that is decided in the Eurogroup, has to be confirmed in the Bundestag  (the German parliament).

Chances are you're right. She's telling the truth, since she has the rightful position to decide for a country's future... It's easy to say the truth when you're burden free. Living in a country that became "the miracle" of economic growth because in 1954* the other countries signed off its external debt; sure, seems the right way to do it.

But... what if everybody asked for their money back? Why Germany, back then was eligible for a "gift" and Greece now is not? Maybe Greece is just too small for Germany's big plans; but back in 1940 they settled all those plans back. History is a bitch. Tends to repeat itself; and fool yourselves not, we're at war today. Only the weapons are bonds, derivatives and Euro bills.**

Sources:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts
** http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/34431

Edit:
To backup my previous musings here's an interesting article from Huffington Post:

It is not surprising that the very idea of a referendum would provoke the ire of the eurozone authorities. Unlike the European Union, which has a different history, the eurozone project has become a fundamentally anti-democratic project. It has to be; the people currently running it want to reverse, as much as possible, decades of social progress on issues that are vital to Europeans.

But you don't have to take my word for it: there is a paper trail of thousands of pages that spell out their political agenda. The IMF conducts regular consultations with member governments under Article IV of its charter, and these result in papers which contain policy recommendations. There were 67 such consultations for EU countries during the four years of 2008 to 2011, and the pattern was striking: budget tightening was recommended in all 27 countries, with spending cuts generally favored over tax increases.

Cutting health care and pension spending, reducing eligibility for disability and unemployment compensation, raising retirement ages and increasing labor supply were also overwhelmingly common recommendations.

The European authorities took advantage of the crisis and post-crisis years to impose parts of this agenda on the weaker eurozone economies: Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland and most brutally of all, Greece. More than 20 governments fell as a result, until finally, in Greece on January 25, a government was elected that said no. The goal of the European authorities, therefore, is to topple this government. This has been apparent since the ECB cut off its main line of credit to Greece on February 4.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-weisbrot/congress-imf-greece_b_7716422.html

[Alley]

When do the polls close and when will we know?

[chryspano]

When do the polls close and when will we know?

Polls will close at 19:00 Athens timezone http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/greece/athens and I believe we will know 1-2 hours afterwards

[mark coins]

My heart goes out to the people in Greece. That's the reality it needs to be faced

[dinofelis]

But... what if everybody asked for their money back?
 Why Germany, back then was eligible for a "gift" and Greece now is not?

Simply, because the first time that one didn't do that, they started WWII.  WWII is essentially the result from NOT bailing out Germany's debt after Versailles.  So to avoid a repetition of that, we bailed them out.

Greece didn't start a war, and probably won't start a war, so one doesn't have to bail them out.


That said, Greece can declare itself bankrupt which it probably will if the "no" vote wins, and if Angela puts a middle finger up (which she might probably do).
In that case, Greece bailed itself out.

[dinofelis]

My heart goes out to the people in Greece. That's the reality it needs to be faced

Whatever happens, it must be a terrible day to live.

[EternalWingsofGod]

When do the polls close and when will we know?

Polls will close at 19:00 Athens timezone http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/greece/athens and I believe we will know 1-2 hours afterwards

It will be an interesting day.
I'm fairly confident it will be a vote against the Euro their will be an exit poll so it will give some sentiment during the day but seeing as it will be close either way we really may not know until a few hours after.

[Amph]

But... what if everybody asked for their money back?
 Why Germany, back then was eligible for a "gift" and Greece now is not?

Simply, because the first time that one didn't do that, they started WWII.  WWII is essentially the result from NOT bailing out Germany's debt after Versailles.  So to avoid a repetition of that, we bailed them out.

Greece didn't start a war, and probably won't start a war, so one doesn't have to bail them out.


That said, Greece can declare itself bankrupt which it probably will if the "no" vote wins, and if Angela puts a middle finger up (which she might probably do).
In that case, Greece bailed itself out.

and they cannot start a war in any case, they do not have a good military power, they do not have enough money for that, unless civilians will turn to militia or something

[V for Varoufakis]

Today is a victory against dark age europe.