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Christian bakers fined $135,000 for refusing to make wedding cake for lesbians.


The owners of a mom and pop bakery have just learned there is a significant price to pay for following their religious beliefs.

Aaron and Melissa Klein, the owners of Sweet Cakes By Melissa, have been ordered to pay $135,000 in damages to a lesbian couple after they refused to bake them a wedding cake in 2013.

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The Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industry (BOLI) awarded $60,000 to Laurel Bowman-Cryer and $75,000 in damages to Rachel Bowman-Cryer for “emotional suffering.”

“This case is not about a wedding cake or a marriage,” the final order read. “It is about a business’s refusal to serve someone because of their sexual orientation. Under Oregon law, that is illegal.”

According to the BOLI, the lesbian couple suffered great angst. One of the women “felt depressed and questioned whether there was something inherently wrong with the sexual orientation she was born with.” They said she had “difficulty controlling her emotions and cried a lot.”

moar - http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/07/02/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians.html?intcmp=trending

Very old news i'm afraid, but it's one of the major news events that has led to the recent legislation to make same sex marriage legal in the US. Now, the social debate continues on whether people who disagree with same sex marriage due to religious beliefs can refuse service to those they know are gay. The test for whether this is discrimination hinges largely on whether sexual orientation is a protected class in the US, I believe it is, which would make it illegal for a business to refuse them service (if the reason for the refusal is due to the sexual orientation.)

Good.

If they [were white and] had refused to make a wedding cake for a black hetero couple, imagine the reaction.

Zero tolerance for bigotry, this is America.

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/13900000/GAY-pride-flag-gay-rights-13910079-363-466.jpg

Fighting a rather natural, I'd say grass roots discrimination with positive discrimination forced from the top of the society will lead to more hatred instead of fixing anything.

A business should be free to sell or not sell to anyone it likes. America seems to be self destructing

Picture that - I wont sell my used phone to a person i dont like, i get fined

So you think gays struggle as much for acceptance as blacks do? You can't tell if a person is gay just by looking at them, and if they really wanted to they could just pretend to be straight. Ask one of your black friends what the success rate they would have pretending to be white would be.

As far as the cake, it is not like they came into a restaurant and they refused to feed them, or they were refused entry into some public club for being homosexual. They are purchasing a service, and that service requires a lot of investment of time, resources, and effort. Wedding cakes can be extremely complicated and expensive, and forcing a baker to spend all that effort on something that they object to for whatever reason is not appropriate. In effect you are denying the baker the right to observe their religious beliefs, as if there are not other bakers who will gladly accept your business.

I don't think it is appropriate for one very important reason. Ones sexual orientation should not be a legally protected class, because it is something that is not demonstrable with empirical evidence. It is easy to prove if someone is black in most cases, try to prove someone is gay. IE it would be indistinguishable to the the difference between an actual homosexual and someone who just claims to be homosexual, leaving everyone else open to lots of abuse via the legal system not just form actual homosexuals, but people pretending to be homosexual. I believe all humans should be treated with respect and not be discriminated against, but the law works with facts and proofs, not attractions.

Lets examine this logic further. People have the right to free speech in this country (supposedly). Yet companies like Walmart actively refuse to make southern flag cakes because some people (other than the customer ordering the cake) find it offensive. Yet some how a baker who probably has to spend at least an entire work day, or more making a wedding cake is not allowed to turn down a job because it offends them? Censorship seems to be very selective. Also Social justice warriors seem to have an unhealthy fascination with cakes.

Furthermore even if you think homosexuality should be a protected class, you you really honestly believe the supposed hardship placed on this lesbian couple was so severe that the baker should pay $135,000, a sum that would be sure to destroy the livelihoods of almost anyone? Is the punishment proportional to the supposed crime? I don't think so. I believe this is way beyond insane.

I'm more than happy to see bigotry come at such a high cost to the ignorant ones who practice it. Bigotry kills. Hate kills.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots

I think that's a fruitless and fucked up question to ask. In both cases, less so each passing day as Christianity slowly dies in America.

Yeah, I am aware you have no sense of justice or proportional punishment and would gladly exterminate all those whom dare not fit within your imaginary utopian social construct. This is not bigotry, this is a business owner exercising their right to choose who they contract with. It is not like they sat down at a diner and they refused to serve them a meal. Making a wedding cake is a LOT of work, and some people might find being forced to use their craft to support something they find offensive under threat of hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines pretty excessive, imposing, and intolerant of their own religious rights and their rights as a business owner. Making homosexuality as a protected class is simply not something that can be enforced justly or equitably with any degree of certainty.

People in the past who denied services to people based on their race did not do so on the basis of religion, they did it based on racism. There is no constitutional right to racism in the USA, but there is that right for religion. This kind of thing is a purposely constructed abuse of the law and a tale of victim hood designed to destroy those who practice their faith.


Interesting. A riot happened once. That proves what? I don't know if that compares to hundreds of years of slavery and institutionalized oppression. Also remind me when the hundreds of years of gay slavery happened.

Why is it a fruitless question? Because it points out your flippant characterization of the struggle of gays against homophobia being exactly the same as the struggle of blacks against racism? You are the one that made the comparison, why is it an invalid comparison now when I point out the inconsistencies under your own example? Also who said anything about Christianity? You are showing your bias and hatred for a particular group of religious peoples. I believe all religious peoples should be free to practice their faith as long as they are not violating the rights of others. Refusing to bake a cake for someone does not qualify as violating someone's rights in my book.

Having a business owner be able to discriminate based on religion is a tough topic for sure.  If we lived in a world where you could go next door to the Christian baker and get a cake made for anybody, I really would have no problem with it.  However, this simply isn't the case.  Coming from the deep south, the vast majority of the people here are anti-LGBT and would turn you away in a heartbeat if they had the option to.  Is it really okay for somebody to have to drive hours just to get a service they want to pay for simply because they live a different lifestyle than the service provider?

Moreso, people won't be happy if it's just marriage based services, and even if they were it would be hard to figure out where the line is drawn.  Is it okay to not allow a gay couple to stay at your motel on their honeymoon because of your beliefs?  If I claimed to be a Humanist and refused to serve anti-gay people on my religious basis, would that be okay?  While it wouldn't be possible to do that since you'd have no idea, you get the point I'm trying to make.

Religion shouldn't have any basis in a publicly owned business.  You're welcome to donate it's money to whatever causes you want, welcome to pray every day before starting work and take off early to go to church.  However, your rights end where another person's right to be served begins.

Bakers should just bake, no questions asked.
But then again, $135K is a crazy amount of money.

I'll agree there is a huge disconnect between government "justice by fining" and the realities on the ground for Americans today,  the political caste seem to be blissfully unaware that most folks aren't millionaires.

Perhaps that's because we haven't devoured them yet.

Not sure how I feel about this. Should they be sued? Why not just shame them publicly and voice your support by refusing to use their business. The negative impact will have a big effect on their business for sure.

http://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/files/2012/04/WayneBrady.jpg

Barack Obama makes it look easy.

Funny shit.

Well, religious beliefs or whatever beliefs don't give a special right to people to do whatever they want, specially not following the law, that would be quite chaotic...

In the USA fines are way too high, but surprisingly it didn't went to millions, maybe if it was a bigger store the couple would have been granted a couple million.

I wonder where they are going to find the money to pay the fine.

Mrs. Klein told me her five children were subjected to death threats -- death threats for simply refusing to participate in a same-sex wedding. Eventually, the bullying became so severe the family had to shut down their retail store and Mr. Klein had to take a job picking up garbage.

Here is the Lesbian couple:

http://portlandtribune.com/images/artimg/00003518720302.jpg

And here are the bakers:

http://www.independentsentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/The-Cryers-400x265.png

And here is Brad Avakian (Commissioner of the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries) who awarded the Sodomites $135,000 in compensation.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Brad_Avakian_2008_Color.jpg/220px-Brad_Avakian_2008_Color.jpg

I just hope that other conservatives will step in and donate, to help Aaron and Melissa.

Why do you hope that?   I have quite a few gay friends and it is a very hard thing for someone to have to go through life like that.   They have 3 choices, 1) Hide the fact that they are gay and go though life spiteful and miserable, 2) Actually be gay out in the open and live life happily, or 3) become a catholic priest.

Whether or not it makes people uncomfortable, people should not be afraid to be who they are.   You may tell yourself that being gay is a "choice", but the 400% increase in suicidality among gays seems to suggest otherwise.

What about #3? So you are agreeing that most of the gays are pedophiles?

If they are running a business, then they should be a professional who accept every customers, doesn't matter who the customers are. The main point is, the customers like your product and your business is going up. It's okay if the shop owners have their rights to choose their customers, but I guess the business won't get success.

You can't walk in to a Jewish run bakery, and demand that they make a birthday cake with Nazi decorations. When someone tried that, not only he had his cake denied, but all of his children were taken away from him and placed under foster-care.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nazi-devil-worshipping-n-father-fighting-custody-adolf-hitler-article-1.1367217

Now law should be equal to everyone. If the sodomites can have their cake, then why can't the Nazis?

Well Jewish do that because Nazi has made terrible things to their predecessor. So, what the gays have done to the cake shop owner? The gays never do anarchy in society I guess, then you need to differ Nazi with gays people.

OK... for now, let's leave the Nazi part. A few days ago, Walmart decided not to sell cakes, with the confederate flag on it. Some 25-30% of the American population is directly descended from the Confederate soldiers, and for them the confederate flag is something which celebrates their heritage. And going by your logic (Walmart should be professional, accepting every single customer), Walmart has no right to deny them the Confederate cake.

most homosexuals may not be paedophiles but most paedophiles are homosexual

Why does he hope that? Maybe because this whole family doesn't deserve to have their entire life destroyed because two women had to go to another retailer to get the services they wanted. I am sure that is a scar that will last a lifetime. Its not like they denied them medical treatment. Its not like they assaulted them. As far as I know they were completely polite but refused services on the grounds that is violated their religious beliefs. Doesn't it seem a little moronic to you that one should remove the rights of one person to protect the rights of another? Furthermore, now the baker is responsible for all the ACTUAL bigotry perpetrated against homosexuals in their lifetime now?

Better example. But, do you know about the civil war behind the confederate flag? I think there are US people who have bad experience with that civil war. If you can give me an example that never involve any war, that would be great.

Blah blah blah... Now straight people are responsible for gays committing suicide? They have no problem with marching around naked in front of little children, and performing sodomy in the open. But suddenly, these people will commit suicide if someone denies them a cake? Considering the number of pedophiles and HIV-positive people among the gays, it does not surprise me that the suicide rate is higher among the LGBTs.

I am wondering why these bakers just didn't refused making cake on the grounds of overflow of the order list. They could tell these lesbians that they have already a bunch of unfinished work and cannot accept more orders now.

In otherwise, I am wondering why the lesbian couple didn't go to other cake shop then. I think there are many cake shop in Oregon, and I guess among them there must be same-sex marriage supporter.

The lesbian couple selected this particular shop after much planning. They know that the shop was run by religious people who don't approve of the LGBT propaganda. And after a well planned operation, they got themselves richer by some $135,000. Perhaps they will give $35 K to Avakian, but that still leaves them with a hundred grand.

Look how you actually ignore the facts and twist things to suit your own perverse and ignorant argument. Look at the very first sentence of that article:


He didn't have his kids taken away from him for the cake, he had them taken away because he's a wife and child beating unfit father from the sounds of it. Someone who names their kids  Adolf Hitler & Aryan Nation obviously doesn't care about them that much.

So do you think the couple did that purposely? And you still blaming the owners of cake shop because their religion principals? You just made a good idea for the same-sex couples to get some bucks in US.

Yes. I think that the "victims" targeted that particular shop after much planning. These discrimination lawuits are big business in the United States, especially in the liberal states such as Oregon and Washington. That said, I don't have a very good opinion on the religious nuts either. This situation could have been avoided, had the bakers handled it a little bit more intelligently.

I'm all for gay marriage and such and I believe as long as two people are consenting the government has no right to stop them. But at the same time I believe anyone should have the right to refuse buisness to ANYONE for ANY reason. That bakery doesn't allow gay people to purchase cakes? Go to the one down the street, in the other town and give them your business. The only real way to stop this is hurting buisness owners in the worst place possible, their wallet.

You will soon have segregation if that kind of logic is allowed.  :)

at least this liberal is honest and admits that whites only accept blacks in their communities because they are forced to, usually liberals pretend a multiracial society is what the majority of people actually believe in

You posted the other day that one third of victims of paedophilia are male. Now you say that most paedophiles are gay. Get your facts right.

On topic, this is a dumb case, but they've obviously gone for the maximum payout because they knew that stories like this are super-popular with the media. Did they plan the incident? It's certainly possible but we should probably get some evidence before accusing them of that.

I have no problem with gay marriage, but this does seem disproportionately harsh on the bakers. On the other hand, business rules are pretty strict in supposedly free countries like the USA and UK, so they should have known that this was a bad idea. They have five kids as well, these breeders shouldn't be turning anyone's business down. At least the gays aren't contributing to the overpopulation problem, in fact they're actively helping by adopting unwanted kids. Ha, went a bit off topic there...  :D

the third is only what we know, its going to be a lot higher because boys are less likely to report that these unseemly things were done to them

also not everyone who is attracted to kids will act on their urges, not every queer at the "pride" march got to fuck that half naked 10 year old boy who was twerking and give him aids but you can bet your left testicle they wanted to, they're still paedophiles

:D

As saddampbuh had posted earlier, male pedophilia is under-reported when compared to those incidents, which target female kids. That said, if 1% of the population (2.3% of the population is LGBT according to the NHIS, of that around half will be gay males) makes up 33% of all the pedophiles, don't you think that it is a very high number?