Bitcoin Forum

This is a X-post from here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114818.0) but I guess it is very interesting for all the lurkers of this board, with certainty more then for those in its "correct" place.

http://www.bit4x.com/css/images/logo.png

So, I just read about them on reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10sjgs/bit4xcom_new_forex_trading_platform_for_bitcoin/):

http://www.bit4x.com/


1: Does that mean I can trade my bitcoins with 1:1000!! leverage??

2: Or does it mean that we can fund our accounts with bitcoins but are only allowed to trade on traditional currencies with that 1:1000 leverage?

-edit-
This article indicates (thx Enky1974), that no currency pairs involving BTC are traded, only traditional currency pairs, like USD/EUR or XAU/USD, while your account balance can be funded with bitcoin.

1:1000 leverage O.O

My scam-sense is tingling.

Next drama in 3.2.1...

Here we go again...

am i the only one that thinks its legit?

1:1000 leverage common... ( you'll get liquidated 3 seconds after you place the order... so why wouldn't they offer it  ;) )

hahaha "1:1000" + "100 BTC Live account minimum" = "here lack the fine print"

lol

Their broker, VenetFX, is almost completely unknown to Google. Kind of strange for a company with offices in 6 countries.

I smell scam. Bitcoinica ring a bell?

Let's see how many suckers fall for this one....

LOL  :D

And the VenetFX.com domain was only registered in April this year...

Lol!

No we are in two. 1:1000 leverage is not so insane if you just scalp. So far i've done 14 trades with them without problems, i reported some impressions and examples in my last blog post.

three. good people.

Anyone knows him ?
Enky1974 > How did you get to be a beta tester ? Did they asked for testers in this forum ?

Would be so nice if it was a quality (with MT4), legit service.

Yes kakobrekla is a sharp and thoughtful guy.

No it must be legit, just think:

If I or any group of people deposited 21001 BTC and went long or short with 1:1000 leverage, guess what?
They would have to buy/sell more bitcoins then will ever be in existance.  ;D

You see? Hang on..

I know kakobrekla personally, that's all, i was glad to test it.

Ok, I hope you had a nice relationship, becauseit will be over as soon as this scam goes down the drain.

Just think about this:

Lets say I got 1000 BTC in total.
I put 900 BTC in a SELL order at 20$ at MtGox.
Then I fire up my 1:1000 account on Bit4x.com with the remaining 100 BTC. I execute a BUY order for 100k BTC
--> price shoots up to 20.02$! on MtGox (if all 100k BTC were to be bought there)
My 900 BTC were justsold for 20$ each (63% profit). I could completely loose my 100 BTC on bit4x.com now and still pocket a huge instant gain (I probably wouldnt loose much because price would rally up to somewhere below 20$, so I could still sell at a small loss, or execute an insane SELL order to play the game in reverse).

You hold the account in bitcoin, no btc cross trading on leverage, cant imagine that in th enext 5 years.

+1

you execute a buy order for 100k btc?

more then likely btc4x.com would be a bucket shop setup. they only buy and sell on an exchange when needed.
so if the above scenario actually happened it is highly doubtful that btc4x.com would react in any shape or form.

bitcoinica was a bucket shop in most aspects.

From my reading of things, they only let you trade currencies and metals.  The bitcoin is for margin only.

forgive me for my ignorance. I know nothing about advanced trading. Was your answer a yes or a no?

my question is:   is it now possible to execute a buy order on mtgox for 100k btc when you only have 100btc?

Can anybody clear this up by confirming that NO trading on BTC/* currency pairs is happening on bit4x.com?
That you can only deposit and withdraw in BTC but cannot actually trade on any bitcoin markets with your leverage?

Correct, see trade example http://btctrading.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/714/

Just think for a minute, this would have been announced big time, at least on bitcointalk, zerohedge, bloomberg, businessinsider, wsj....
And if its introduced, why only by one broker that nobody ever heard of and with a leverage from 1:1000.
Its a wet dream to trade btc vs other currencies like eur/usd on leverage but surely we will have to wait and there should be pre announcements when if/its introduced.

it appears, no. you cannot.
you might as well just deposit USD into the account. at least there is a traceable record of it. unlike btc where you send
it into a possible blackhole and no one cares since it is bitcoin. i dont count the blockchain as traceable in the equation as
a court will not really give a damn. unlike USD where they are used to it.

Ok, got it. So it's a standard forex platform where your account is in BTC.
Thus you are subject to risk from BTC variations, without being able to hedge it.

Is the BTC/USD rate the one from MtGox ?

" Bitcoins are volatile, can you guarantee my payouts if Bitcoins rise or fall in value?
Yes, our broker VenetFX holds extra Bitcoin reserves, twice the sum of all clients deposits at all times. Just in case that won't be enough, the broker will acquire more Bitcoins on the market. "

This is enough to say that I won't put a single $ or BTC on this broker.

BTC/USD rate is irrelevant for your trading limits and whatnot.

Yep, but it'll affect your margin. If BTC/USD is up, your margin is increased, and vice-versa. Right ?
So if an event like the pirate default happens, your margin can be cut in half in 3 days.

This is essentially btcdaytrade all over again.

In case you missed it: Yeah this is very probable a scam.
Looking forward for another "I told you so." incident - can't have enough of those. :P

Accually no, if you want to go into details, margin is affected by EUR/USD rate, but its going in your favour anyway.
There seems to be no way around this until the BTC will be one of the 'official' Forex currencies. You can read about margin details here: http://btctrading.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/714/

No kidding, how could twice all balances ever not be enough? They obv plan to fail at that and then they will fail at getting them at all.

If your margin is denominated is BTC for a trade on EUR/USD, then it has to be affected by BTC/USD (and/or BTC/EUR).
If your margin is not denominated in BTC, say in USD, then it means that your short BTC/USD (because you had to sell btc to get usd margin).

Disclosure : Had an exhausting day, I may be saying crap. Please explain me all the transactions when opening a position, that could work better.

It is not complicated, i'll report, again, one of the trade i did these days:


Account leverage 1:10
Account deposit 100 btc
Allowed to open a position size of 0.01 lots MAX


Opened long position on EUR/USD at 1.28882 on 12 sept 2012
Closed long position on EUR/USD at 1.31143 on 14 sept 2012

1.31143 divided by 1.28882 = 1.01754318 or ~1.75%

1.75% profit on my position times 10 ( the leverage of my account)  =17.54%

17.54% of 100 btc of position size = 17.54 btc profit

account now 117 btc from 100btc

note: position margin size VISUALIZED on mt4 while the TRADE WAS OPEN was 77 because they convert the magin size with actual eur/usd cross ratio (100/1.29=~77) i think due to an internal technical reason of the broker, this doesnt affect your trading, your PROFIT IS COMPUTED USING 100 BTC.

INCREASING THE LEVERAGE wouldn't have changed the sort of that example, it would have simply reduced the margin from 77 down to 7.7 in the case of 100 to 1 leverage and so on..., to increase the margin you have to increase the POSITION SIZE IN LOTS

Hope it is clear:)

Cya

Can you explain the same trade with BTC/USD loosing, say, 20% meanwhile ?

Yes, nothing will change in btc, just in usd:
actual btc/usd ratio is 12.70$ per btc

you earned 17.5 btc, or 17.50 times 12.70$ = 222.25$ profit from that trade

in the second case with a drop of 20% at mtgox
you earned 17.5btc, or 17.50 times 10.16$ (12.70-20% drop at mtgox) = 177.8$ profit from that trade

you still have 17.54 btc profit on your account in both cases regardless of BTC vs other currencies

I anxiously await a report of the first Bit4xonging.

Lol I see what you did there! :D

Forex brokers have an INSANE amount of regulation that varies depending on what country you are in.  As a us citizen, I cant even trade with a couple of the major brokerage houses due to government regulations

I HIGHLY doubt bit4x meets the operating guidelines required by law of brokerage firms (meaning they can be shut down by government authorities)

That's IF they don't just run off with your money.

Be careful people.

Most dont know that i guess but you can run a bucket white label brokerage with a simple financial srevice proider licence which can be optained between 2.5 and 30k USD depending on the jurisdication. Thats how unregulated brokers get founded, next step would be to get a regulation but i really dont now how hard its to get a regulation documents. There are indeed a lot of black sheeps out there but some are as stupid as black, 2 years ago i got fridays quotes on a sunday opening in forex, could have made a killing if i wasnt sucha noob back then xD.

- We comply to all local regulations. Clients should be compliant with their local regulations.

- As for bucket shop, VenetFX connection to Currenex is provided by http://www.admd.com.

FTFY

For your clients to comply, they need to know what country you operate from.

So you are a member of nfa and liscensed? If not you cannot do business in the USA (or with clients based in the USA). If not, are you liscensed by your countries regulatory body, and can you provide a link to your license registry?

The fact that you haven't listed these things on your site makes it look very suspicious.

VenetFX head office is in UK.  All Bitcoin denominated accounts/clients are treated as 'domestic' or 'local'.
See http://bit4x.com for the required info to open a Live account.

So you are regulated by FSA. Can you link me to your liscense registry? No one in their right mind is going to open an account (much less give you money) if you aren't liscensed.

Edit:
I see venetfx liscense info on their site, but nothing on yours.

http://venetfx.com/bitcoin/

Along with taking care of technical side of Bitcoin, holding deposits and so on, I am exclusive introducing broker for Bitcoin for VenetFX.

I see.

 I would recommend linking your liscensing info on the bit4x page as well. There are a ton of forex scams out there, and it looks suspicious when you don't have it conspicuously displayed.

Added in the text. Hope that is sufficient.

What i wonder is, bitcoin by law is not threated as currency as a lawyer told me.
How does this complains with the regulation?.

On your website http://bit4x.com/ is no statement of regulation.
From the http://venetfx.com/regulations/

On the http://venetfx.com/ is nothing mentioned about MFID standard.

I also miss a privacy statement.

As http://venetfx.com/  also states that they accept bitcoin for deposit, i conclude that http://bit4x.com/ is just a normal white label introducing broker (affiliate). Now the question for me would be, how are you compensated for the introduccing service? IS there any spread/commission markup?

VenetFX lawyers have been working on this and have set up a system for it.


Bit4X is a VenetFX service. http://venetfx.com/bitcoin/
I have a contract signed for exclusive IB for Bitcoin.
Working with me is like working insurance agent who works for insurance company. I bridge end clients with VenetFX.
Because of my technical background and OTC history I also take care of all Bitcoin related technical stuff and hold all clients deposits.
A seperate page was made for a better presentation of Bitcoin support. (Trading rules are also different with BTC.)

The FSA is responsible for the regulation of the securities industry in the UK. It has incorporated MiFID into its Handbook of rules and guidance.

I will be adding a FAQ soon and it will be added there.


Commissions are built in the spread. Spread is the same as with all VenetFX accounts.

I have been getting a lot of questions about how does the margin and leverage work exactly, hope this clears it up.

Just saying, if you don't want to blow your account in one week, you shouldn't use leverage superior than x100 on currencies.
And x25 max on commodities.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101081.0

I'm not quite following the point of all this --- You're basically running a venetfx passthrough. . . since venetfx accepts bitcoins as well, where's our advantage to using your service?

It's not like you're adding btc pairs into the mix (I long for the days of the 'big 7' ) so exactly what value are you adding over us going direct?

I take care of all VenetFX/Bit4X Bitcoin clients.

Yah that's what I thought - so you're basically adding no service level at all --- and running a passthrough. Nice  ::)

Huh? I thought he said he was handling all of VenetFX's bitcoin business. So I guess that's a currency exchange service rather than just a pass-through.

Let me rephrase, without me there is no trading Forex in Bitcoin. Not with Bit4X, not with VenetFX. I think I'm adding a lot of value.

No currency exchange is taking place. But you would have known that, if you would have read the text on the website.

So then why are you operating as a seperate entity? If you're legitimate reseller/agent/whatever for venetfx - I would think that they'd have you integrated into their main site... Either way, it just looks shady.

Some interesting insights:

Bit4X claims to have its service provided by VenetFX.
The VenetFX website claims it is located at 29 Harley Street London.
When googling this address the first link tries to sell virtuall offices located at that address.
The second link is this: http://www.bobbear.co.uk/finance.html
It appears there are scams run off of this virtual office space.

There is absolutely no reason to trust these people.
The chance that this is not some form of scam is subatomic.

It gets even more hazy when you follow the FSA number listed at the bottom of the VenetFX site.
The number listed there does not resolve to a firm called VenetFX, it resolves to a firm called Worth.it Financial Services Ltd in London which doesn't have a functioning website (but still with a registered domain. Edit: domain seems not registered).
Meanwhile, there is no firm called VenetFX in the FSA register.
Still, they manage to claim Best FOREX award 2011 or something similar next to that FSA number.

BTW. watch out for the software VenetFX is trying to push.
On their Meta Trader 4 page they make it seem as if they create or resell Meta Trader 4. If you click on the picture with the 5 monitors you will start a download of venetfxsetup.exe . Which should be handled with EXTREME CARE.

Edit: Apparently the file is virus free and seems a legitimate way of branding meta trader..

+1 Obvious scam.

Added this topic as info to the Bit4x entery.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101081

VenetFX is a Worth ltds brandname.

http://shrani.si/f/3E/3n/49Dt3vRo/vfx.png

Best Forex award is for MT4 software.



As you can see, file is hosted on http://metaquotes.net/. Official MetaTrader page.
We can not upload our own files there, they build customized exe for each broker.

ok..
Aah, the site does not make that clear and it seems the reward is for venetfx.
I missed that and it makes you look somewhat better.
However, your operation still seems to lack transparency.

So somebody paid a fee to have branded mt4 - all that takes is money. If you are scamming, then you only need 100 people to buy in before you've recouped your branding fee.
I'm going to skip it now - since I don't see any added value vs going with an existing (and well know) forex broker. Since the vast majority of my money is fiat, might as well pay directly with less risk.

venetfxsetup.exe it's virus free:
https://www.virustotal.com/file/90dd1c70f719c8882aa40c6e7e66e5909b16cfd07aab353c704d9d9412bb71cb/analysis/1349639967/
checked with virustotal, 43 antivirus.

Can someone please report what the spreads are like on EUR/USD and GBP/USD? Are they fixed or variable? A screenshot of the quotes window in MT4 would be really appreciated!

2.9 pips on average EUR/USD and GBP/USD; they can vary a little around few tenths of  a pip

I've also activtrades as fiat forex broker, better spread on currencies but on silver/gold venetfx is better

My scam-detector is showing "scam detected"  :D

here's the screenshot, the last two are gold/silver
https://i.imgur.com/tMmoK.png

Yup - yours and everyone elses.

Mine is showing "maybe", but then again I think mine's broken.  I've lost money to:

Some dick on bitcoin-otc over a year ago
SIN
Bitscalper
Pirate
GLBSE
Bitfloor
and probably a couple others I'm forgetting at the moment

Thanks a lot Enky1974!

BTW, I'm also a '74er  :)

Are you interested in buying a bridge?  :D

It depends... where does this bridge go?

Yes, that's the wrong question.
A good question would be something like: "Is the bridge smoking or burning in any way?" or something like that
:D

Those are follow up questions... first I need to know if I even want to go where this bridge will take me.

100 btc just to open an account??  :o No Thanks.

What company is this through?  I mean I see Bit4x.com accepts bitcoin for forex trading but who owns them.  How can I verify the company so I know its real?

If anyone ever tries that out, pls drop an experience report!

P.S.: No Sockpuppets!

This is still a scam. Waiting for the first "got scammed by them" report!  :D

anyone look for EURUSD shorts using this platform ;D

Did twice today, from 1.2970 to 1.2935 and few mins ago from 1.2979 to 1.2958

This is what my problem is - I simply don't have 100BTC to park. Most of these small ForEx brokers I've seen usually only need $100 to open an account. While that's probably enough to ensure that the customer will lose it all, I'm not sure that 10X that is necessary to ensure the customer doesn't lose everything in a heartbeat.

kakobrekla, maybe you guys could set another account level? Allow insane leverage only on the 100BTC accts, and allow up to 1:??(20? 100?) on the smaller accounts? maybe 25BTC to open?

I have pushed the minimum deposit to open Live account as low as I could (yes, the original suggestion was even higher), at 100 units a technical limit was reached. While in theory it would be possible to trick this with deciBTC denomination, which was discussed at some point, the complexity of implementation out weights the gains.

guruvan, I tried to reach you in #bitcoin-assets with no success. Please drop me a message when you are online.


On a side note, until the end of 2012, all new Live accounts receive a 5 BTC bonus.

First of all leverage doesn't have any influence on risk, it will just reduce the margin required to open a position allowing you to open more trades to diversify or hedge your trading positions.
What is important it's the size of your trade, roughly to do 1 lot you need at least 1000 btc and for the min position size of 0.01 you need theoretically 10 btc but if you aren't good enough  is still too low as a starting deposit.
I don't think that for an amateur 25 btc are enough to cover the max initial equity drawdown that you'll probably have. Maybe 50 btcs are enough to operate with a position size of 0.01-0.02 Lot but as Kako said there are technical limitation to go under 100 btc.
If you think to be skilled enough, find 3 guys that are willing to give you 75 btcs and manage that sum for them.

This is the clearest scam I have seen in a long time.  Why has a moderator not deleted this thread and banned the associated individuals?


- Your firm is NOT regulated by the FSA and you are lying when you claim to be.  Everyone follow these steps:
1.  Go to http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/firmSearchForm.do
2.  Type 217689 (This is FXCM - a regulated, respected, and legal broker)
3.  Click regulators
4.  Notice how it says, "Financial Services Authority" - FXCM is legally regulated
5.  Follow step 1-2 with 194835 (The number for VenetFX)
6.  Click regulators
7.  Notice the void?  VenetFX is NOT regulated by the FSA and they claim to be
8.  Now click the permissions link for each of the above firms.  VenetFX is NOT authorized to transact in foreign exchange, contracts for difference, or spot forex

- All you have done is create a company and register it with the FSA - I have personally done the same and have my trading firm listed with the NFA.  If I were to turn around and offer a brokerage service and claim that I am regulated by the NFA, I would go to jail - which is what may happen to you in the near future.

- It is illegal to solicit foreign exchange business in the United States without being registered with the CFTC and NFA as a RFED
http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr5883-10

- The maximum legal leverage in the U.S. is 50:1 - by offering your service to Americans, you are violating our laws
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=1&SID=bb4e8713bff1ff87626ea3fb658a963d&ty=HTML&h=L&n=12y1.0.1.1.42&r=PART#12:1.0.1.1.42.0.9.9

- The logic and claims of the website are entirely flawed
-- "Yes, your Bitcoin deposits are never converted into fiat or any other form"
-- When you "buy" EUR/USD, you are selling dollars to buy euros.  To say that you can trade currencies without converting your BTC is a straight-up lie.  This claim blatantly tells you that they are trading against customers or just stealing money.

- I have reported this firm and its "subsidiary" to the FSA

LOL and I totally missed this:

Absolute lie!  Alpari won the best Forex broker in UK and Europe in 2011 from the IBTimes...the website totally falsified its awards.

http://www.alpari.co.uk/en/cnews/show/id/1899/



http://www.thetradequest.com/bitcoin/BestFX.jpg

Thanks for clearing this up for people... it does see to be a somewhat complex scam.

The fact that a scammer like pirate walked away with 5 milion USD... I think that told the world that the BTC community are a bunch of suckers. That's why the lending forum has devolved into two assholes with 25 usernames trying to scam 1btc at a time off of well-intentioned BTC investors. It may not seem like a big problem yet... but we have to be ready for a flood of serious and organized scammers who will spend a lot of effort to get one tenth of what pirate stole.

A huge scam like that, where the crook gets off scot-free, is bound to draw a lot of ambitious thieves into our midst. I'm not surprised to see more and more complex frauds like this targeting this forum particularly. 

Thank you for your concerns, I normally wouldn't bother to post an answer since most has already been addressed in this very thread, but with so much bold statements (see, we are already having pun), it seems like I have to repeat myself.


These things take up to 6 months to update in the register.

I hope they will take you seriously to provide you with a proper reply.

Smells like you are leaking your motives.



Spot Forex and Bitcoin is unregulated in Slovenia and through Balkan. We believe in Bitcoin privacy properties strongly and do not ask for any delicate information when clients open a Bitcoin account.

False. If you do not understand it, it does not necessarily mean its flawed or wrong. "’cause it’s the opposite of that." (Leroy Van Nuys, 2012)

True. Your balance is denominated in Bitcoin, so are you P/L and withdrawals. I don't know why we should be converting clients deposits.
I hold all deposits in a cold storage at all times. With the current dead mans switch implementation, it would take a strategic nuclear weapon that levels 250 km radius around my house to render those Bitcoins useless. Even if Forex blows up, coins are safe.

With leverage, in Bitcoins. This has been explained already here and is in the FAQ.

False.

False. I do not have a clue where or how you derived that from. Also, our Currenex link provider was already covered in this thread, go check up with them.

Some things might not be obvious at the first glance, but whoever can't put two and two together from the information published on the website, with perhaps an intelligent question or two following, is encouraged to stay away from Forex trading altogether, disregarding denomination. This is not Bitcoinica. This is not a game.

There is no official announcement for the service on this forum for a good reason. Since Pirate defaulted (or glbse if you want to pitty yourself) there is only a handful of people left with more than 100 BTC and only a few of those have heard of Forex before. In conclusion, this will be my final statement in this thread. For more information, I am available on irc, #bitcoin-assets or email info@bit4x.com.

"Psi laju, karavane prolaze."

I'm not replying directly to this post - it's full of twisted lies.  I call out your legality, and you insult my intelligence and credibility.  I provide links directly to the legal code and you accuse me of having twisted motives.  Weak performance.

I enjoy how you decided to hint that I'm your competition - simply not true.  My trading firm makes money from trading, not stealing.  And I will never mention the name OR ask for any funds from any person.  My position of having a trading firm, being registered for spot FX trading, working for four trading companies, and trading FX for the majority of my adult life uniquely positions me to call out your scam.

It's for the best that this is your final statement - you are a scammer and you are breaking the law.  I hope that you return all client funds and pursue legitimate business endeavors before punishment ultimately catches you.

Allow me to interject a brief statement:

We have taken this matter seriously - Matic Kočevar and Mircea Popescu are working together on a soon to be released project (unrelated) and Mr. P is paranoid about trust & credibility (among other many countless neverending things, hence the capital P).

It's agreed the awards graphics in the footer were not a smart move. The claim is that the FSA number is in fact valid. The problem of getting to the bottom of whether it is or it isn't however is not trivial.

Irrespective of all this, Matic Kočevar has made it emphatically clear that he holds at the present time all the Bitcoins deposited by users, and this will remain so in the future. This obviously means that he is making himself liable for any legitimate claims from users irrespective of what happens to the forex venture.

In short: it's too expensive for our interest at this time to establish whether the underlying business is legitimate or not. It would appear it can be verified that the trades are actually being executed (ie, not a bucket shop). In any event, users are well advised to make their own judgment of the creditworthiness and counterparty risk of kakobrekla, and deposit only according to the results of that judgment. Business as usual in the Bitcoin world, as it were.

It's hard to know who's honest and who's not at first (few) glance(s) these days, but if this turns out to be a scam, +1 to you Goomboo; I will officially trust you more.

After getting burned by Bitcoinica (which seemed extremely legit when I played there, but then it was my first and only forex endeavor), (and seeing how much potential BTC has otherwise) I'm not betting any BTC anymore on leveraged gambling type stuff.

The fact that you can hold BTC from anywhere without any third party should not ever be understated, least of which by a scamster / fraudster.

Until you see an established 4X house start accepting bitcoin, be wary.

@the OP if you want to scam people you'd be better off designing a fake forex site that has BTC pairs... and then just saying that you're opperating illegally since btc isn't fiat.. =P

My advise: Just get hacked

any news on this one?

How do you create a demo-account? I haven't found the option, though they say there is the option. I downloaded their MT4, and now?

from the page

would read my question again?
but it's ok, I already managed it

I would suggest using IRC if you experience any difficulties.

checked this today, and it still the case.

Liteforex, another broker which accepts BTC seams to be scam, too.

Is there any serious FX-broker I can deposit with BTC out there?

Let me LOL at that one ..... LOOOOOOOOOOOOL....... question that you have to ask:
1) how will calculate a broker with your account equity if the price of bitcoin can drop from 266 to 60 in 3 days
2) how will deal a broker if you deposit bitcoins that got involved in a scam or are from a theft (taint bitcoins) bitcoin does not have the legal status of a fungible currency

serious FX brokers make this questions i wonder if you do .......

A brokerage could easily use something like Bitpay to allow people to deposit using Bitcoins.

exactly:


let me ask about this 2 brokers:


1)Plus500

2)Forex-Metal


the second allows deposit and withdraw in BTC

the first is blocked for my country

Wait on Forex-Metal is there an actual BTC/USD pair? That would be awesome for no other reason other than BTC existing in metatrader.

Also can somebody explain to me what the actual fuck does "infinite leverage" mean? WTF?

Also they say 1.5 pip spreads, on EUR USD, but I'm seeing spreads of a full pip more almost constantly. This is not fun.

then there is no point of using bitcoin the point of using bitcoin is to keep the account in btc and gain account value if the price goes up

sure, that would be perfect. Bit4x does give this option, 1broker (CFD), too.....but both are unregulated

On the other hand, it is a nice option if you can trade some forex with a BTC deposit (which is changed to $) while BTC is  going sideways or down isn't it?



no, but I think Plus500 has, I can't visit their site to check



where did you see that? lol





They have 3 acount types. I'm testeing a demo account now

if u are in USA that a good thing because is illegal for normal uss citizens to trade CFD, synthetic index's, trade with leverage over 50 and a long list

arent all market making Forex-Brokers actualy offering a CDF on pairs (though they don't call it like this)?? And the maiority is market maker

Bit4X is the only ECN forex broker with bitcoin denominated MT4 balance. Also the best.

If you have any serious questions, you know where to find me.

Well if it's the only, it's not dificult to be the best, isn't it?
claims like this, f.e. false awards on the page or false claims that one is regulated are nor trustworthy to me.



I don't kknow where to find you, so I try it here:

First: Who are you? You work for them or are a custumer?


How can I check it is really ECN? website doesn't say this.

Kind of weird I have to spell it out but here goes: start by reading the Bit4X.com webpage.

well, support seams to be bad as well. :-(


Venet-FX page doesn't mention ECN.....and Bit4x seams to mention all kind of things that sound good

Troll or stupid?

thank's, I was even considerating trading on your page before your posts, but you made my decision easy.

To all: WHat kind of person is this? You'll tust a guy like this? I won't

You are welcome. It's not a webpage that you trade on anyway. And yeah, I am trusted, since early 2011 [check the OTC].

So can anybody confirm if Bit4X is legit, and if it actually offers 1:1000 leverage? Because it seems like it only offers up to 500, to me.

Of course its legit, I run it.
1:1000 was limited and it is no longer available for new accounts, the old ones keep it.

It does, but Im in US so I can't. Honestly, I've said "i'm in US so I can't" far too many times already its starting to piss me off.

1broker
Yea :\

Plus500: I can't trade eith them either as they block Brazil. hehehe...take it easy

1broker: Never seen that claim, but since I allready traded their BTC/USD CFD I gues they mean that you can change leverage (up to the limit of course) on the fly when doing an order. (Not that that makes any sense to me, you want half of max leverage, just trade half the size

HEY GUISE I FIGURED OUT HOW TO MAKE GUARANTEED BITCOIN!

(Assuming 0% credit risk on Bitstamp/Gox, Plus500 & Broker1).

23c5ee89582f5474327d1606bf7d57bdb5b6b935

(Lets see if anybody can figure this out).

What could possibly go wrong?

In any case, do you think that Broker1 & Plus500 (broker1 in particular) can be trusted? Even a preliminary look at their model shows how easy it is to cheat.

Also:

"If high leverages are used and markets are volatile, yes. However, if a position loses too much of its value and a leverage greater than 1 is used, it gets closed automatically. There are currently no "margin calls" or similar mechanisms on our platform. "

What the actual fuck is this supposed to mean. If a order is closed automatically, thats a margin call, unless im missing something?

Similarly:

"Currently all markets are closed on weekends and holidays. Some markets are also closed at night. However, placing orders is possible all the time. "

Does this apply to BTC/USD? And if so, wtf? And if so, do I still get my swap/interest?

also what does it mean to long BTC with a leverage of 1 with an account denominated in BTC? That essentially just means longing BTC with a leverage of 2 assuming USD denomination?

Honestly this is fucking weird. Also, how come BTC gets a 65.7% interest rate yearly? Is it because you are essentially leveraging x2? Even then, you're getting like 32.85% interest, wtf?

Why are you surprised, you are talking about diy noob made bucket shop and not something like Bit4X.

unfortunately bit4x doesn't appear to have any way for me to even make an account nor does it have a BTC/USD pair (apparently they are making a... USD/BTC pair?) so unless somebody is able to confirm it actually works, I'm not really going to bother.

there isn't even any post of someone who tried it out

explain this

I did send you your PGP signed contract in a couple of minutes after receiving your application. I don't see how theres no way?


If you think traders will find you .... well good luck with that. On the other hand, finding them is pretty easy.


FYI there are, even on this very forum. At this point I think you are illiterate and there is nothing that can be done for you.  
But, because I am a very nice guy, I will cross paste it for you from the OTC:

Feel free to contact the people in question, thats why OTC is about.

Anyway, I think the real problem is that you do not even have 10 BTC. (I am assuming that based on your posts contents and donation addresses in the signatures, which only poor noobs use to beg)
If that is the case, please stop wasting my time.

you should as this things in the 1briker thread, but i'll respond those.


"margin call" is the warning, "margin close" is the forced closing



No, it's open 24/7


sure. your cfd is leverged 1x and your real BTC, too (if you want to call it like that)

That's exactly the same when you trade a dolar pair on forex with a dolar dominated account


well it's a market maker, he makes the rules....it's a take it or leave it thing......

@kakobrekla

I wouldn't waste my time to waste your time.....And I wont waste any more, to respond to people like you

Yet you are still doing it.

(Assuming 1 BTC price is $100).

Step 1: Deposit 1 BTC into Broker1 & Deposit $100 into Plus500
Step 2: Long BTC/USD in Broker1 with 1 BTC & short BTC/USD in Plus500 with $100, hopefully as close to the same price as possible.
Step 3: Wait for BTC price to go up 50% or down 50%.
Step 4: Collect interest from Broker1 while you wait.
Step 5: Close the position in both brokerages after 50% change & Realize that even if interest was 0, you just made money.

Reason:
If I long BTC/USD in Broker1, and BTC goes to $150, you made 1*5*0.5 = 2.5 BTC = $375.
If BTC goes down to $50, you lost 1*5*0.5  = 2.5 BTC = $125.
If I short BTC/USD in Plus500 and BTC goes down to $50, you made $100*5*0.5 = $250 = 5 BTC
If BTC goes up to $150, you lost BTC $100*5*0.5 = $250 = ~1.7 BTC.
If BTC goes down, you make 2.5 BTC
If BTC goes up, you make 0.8 BTC

Step 6: Re-balance your closing on the exchange of your choice by buying BTC with an amount of USD equal to your USD profit, or selling BTC equal to your USD loss.
Step 7: Tip kazu: 1FQLWseEPhJNQey2m6Mi1pSFf8iyK8e5s7

or I didn't understood or it doesn't make sense:

both have 5x levergage?

(ignoring interest (which shouldn't be ignored))


you are hedging one against the other with 5x - until price falls or ups 20% your gain/loss is 0.......after that you have one trade left (the other is 0 now), which can win or loose! it's like waiting 20% movement to make a trade in the movement direction.
BTW: at least ar 1broker you can hedge against other positions, so no need for 2 brokers. and don't forget, interest rate changes all the time

Leverage is just to make the profits matter more, otherwise you'd make very little. Theoretically you could do it with no leverage.

Also, you're worried about margin calls again? Darn, that little bugger. Note that you'd still make money on the 20%, even taking into account spreads. You're giving up 0.7% in either direction, so we're looking at:

Loss of 1 if DOWN.
Win of 0.93 if UP

On the other side,
loss of $100 if UP
Win of $93 if DOWN.

Now we've essentially either bought 0.93 BTC for $100...
OR we sold 1 BTC for $93 if down.

Swell right? I save myself $13 per coin if going down, or add on 0.93 BTC if down for a measly $100 when that 0.93 BTC should be worth $111.6.

Now technically you've still lost money in a downtrend, but you've cut that loss from $20 to $7, for no real reason.

And interest is always positive for BTC/USD right? Ive yet to see it ever dip below 0%. So that cuts loss further.

EDIT: How would you hedge on 1broker? Am I missing something? As far as I can tell, all of the accounts are by default BTC-denominated, so its impossible to hedge entirely out of BTC unless there is some special option im missing?

If somebody is actually willing to loan you Bitcoin (not through CFD short, but actual loan, for use on any exchange) its possible to make much more money, and guarantee an increase in value even if BTC price goes down, by protecting you from margin call and allowing much more fluctuation before you've gotta close.

Also, just realized that if your loaner lends you enough, you don't even need any of these weirdo places, you just need Gox/Bitstamp, and Broker1. Now, just to find someone to lend me some BTC, despite the fact that I live in the USA :P You don't have to deal with huge spreads that way either, just my normal volume-adjusted fee-lowered Gox account. Best part? I don't even have to bother withdrawing the USD so I dont have to worry about their huge fees! yay!

Edit: Actually I think I'm going to seriously consider doing this. Here are the terms:

Service: Bitcoin price hedging by Kazu :)
Description: Deposit some amount of BTC. Pick some net change greater than or equal to 25%. After a change of 25% in either direction, you will receive your Bitcoins back. In case of the price going down, you will receive your Bitcoins back plus your net change, to make up for the drop in price. In case of the price going up, you will receive your Bitcoins back. All upside no downside!
Risks: Counterparty risk of Gox, counterparty risk of broker1, counterparty risk of... me :), negative interest rates on Broker1 for an extended period of time.
What I get from it: The extra bonus Bitcoins if it goes up as you saw in my last post, and the ability to use my own bitcoins while using yours to protect from margin calls.
How you know i'm being real: Statements on all broker1 and gox accounts each day.

Think anybody here would be interested? Should I make a whole thread about it, or is it too random?

bump

any user experiences lately?

Yep, I'm still a user. Started when bitcoin was a little above $10. They've been able to honor all of my withdrawals with no problem. Spread is pretty good, I have a pro account. I haven't found any service close to this.

Bit4X, in my opinion, is probably the best investment opportunity available to the average retail investor. You get the insane growth of bitcoin + whatever you make in forex, which can result in some astounding returns.

Let's say you're a reasonably good investor and you can get 5% per month in forex trading, using Expert Advisors in MT4 or whatever. You deposit X amount of bitcoin now, and you're making 5% per month on your original investment (in terms of fiat). Let's say, after a year, the value of bitcoin increases 10x. This is not unlikely and has happened many times before (bitcoin is up something like 80x this year so far, $10 to $800). Now, if you're still making 5% per month in terms of bitcoin, you're making 50% per month of the value of your initial investment in terms of fiat. This is awesome.

Additionally, I'm an "anonymous" user. Bit4X just knows my username and PGP key. You don't have to submit any stupid "AML/KYC" info, you just go.

tldr: it's awesome, ask me for my affiliate ID before you sign up for free bitcoin. (I've gotten it a few times already).

It's now sure been way more than 6 months since the date of your post - November 05, 2012. There's still no record of your company with the UK regulators as of this time. How do you explain this?

Hi, you must be new. A lot of things have happened in the while, for example, http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bitcoin-litecoin-crypto-currencies-law-uk-legislation-526227

anybody else with experiences?

How does that link justify you lying about having a UK regulation for your brokerage while in fact never having it?

We did not lie, details of this go past this forum. Now take your sockpuppet account and troll someone who cares.

That's just what you did - lied, conned, and deceived. You have no regulation in the UK and never had. Yet you claimed having one, not showing up because it presumably took some months for the regulator's site to update their information. Now more than enough time has passed and your con has surfaced. Honestly, you would have better not replied to me with that link because now I won't leave this thread without discrediting your conning practice completely.

See, you have no idea, and bring claims to the table like you would have. That is familiar. Goomboo?

Nothing more to say in defense of your scam?

Only lol. At you and your sock.

I wonder what your next lie will be. That your vaults got hacked and you now have to part with all the cash collected from your investors who thought they were dealing with a regulated British institution? ROFL.

Yes ROFL at you. As if regulation guarantees anything, you must be new.

Lies about being regulated sure don't guarantee the security of one's investment. 8)

Sockpuppeting on the other hand does.  ;D

Anyway, try harder next time. And get a new sock first, this one already stinks.

I've done what I intended: exposed your con and got you jumping at the fence for a lack of arguments. Now, whoever invests with your lying scam will have no one to blame but themselves.

Yes you have done a wonderful job. Pat on the back of your socky!

Psi laju, karavani prolaze.

In case anyone still cares:


 BIT4X.Com is legit. Don't take the word of the "arm-chair" traders in this thread who will never be satisfied with any answer proving ("proving") the legitimacy of the BIT4x service. They haven't tried it, they haven't put their money where their mouth is... and they won't because "they know better". Well I have.

In December I opened an account, downloaded the software and transferred 10 btc, following all the instructions as provided. I have been trading forex pairs with my bitcoin funds ever since. Granted, I've been loosing my ass... but that has no bearing on the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the BIT4X.com service. I'm a rookie and while I was quite proficient making easy gains trading bitcoin in a down trending bitcoin market; translating my "skills" after two months of watching every youtube video I could find on trading- didn't quite take in the big-leagues.

There is something to be said about *truly* understanding the power of a leveraged trade... and the inherent risk of being over-leveraged and under-educated. But nonetheless, I've got nothing but great things to say about the service, about Matic- and I'm hoping they continue to grow the business.

Constructive criticism: The MT4 trading platform is great. Actually it's so great, 2001 called and said they wanted it back. Seriously. I do all my charting on tradingview.com and have to set my positions using MT4. It's a pain in the ass. The charting  tools are junk. Why couldn't they partner with tradingveiw.com and put some serious teeth on that bitch. If I could trade from the same platform I chart on, that would be F*cking fantastic. The same is true with my BTC trading. I use bitstamp for my limit order trades, chart with tradingview.com. Yeah, there's QTOpen trader or whatever that's called... it's just kinda... meh.  Anywho, if you want to get into forex using bitcoin funds, BIT4X.com- works. No gimmicks, no shadiness- it straight up, just works. cheers.

Haven't heard anything about any "break". Everything still works exactly as it did when I posted. I did however trade my account to pretty much zero $150 USD at this point.... so I haven't been trading Forex much. Thank god I only started with 10btc. Too bad I didn't start with a demo account first. :p live and learn.

I've been looking at Bit4x for a while now as I liked the idea of having my account denominated in BTC. Been reading through this thread today and glad I did not go ahead with it. Thanks for all those who exposed this business.

To the owner, Matic, the remarks you made in this thread is not what one would expect from a professional and or a person in your position. At stages I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt but your remarks smacks of arrogance and you never really answered any of the pertinent questions asked of you. If the information provided in this thread is not enough warning to anybody contemplating opening an account with your firm then your attitude should surely be.

I think I will head the warning issued by the FCA:


Rest of the article can be read here ==> http://dcmagnates.com/uks-fca-issues-warning-against-bitcoin-brokers-bit4x-and-venetfx/

I'll just stick with my existing broker and keep on nagging them to get bitcoin into their service offering.

Any news?

I saw active ads on bitmedia with this service.

Also they lowered first deposit to 0.1

Honestly looks like a great broker but not much activity in this thread to know if anyone has any success using them.

Maybe there is another forum with more information about this broker.

Do you use this broker yourself?

be careful with this broker. there was a first thread which OP didn't like the outcome and he deleted it. also the regulator which this broker claims to be regulated from issued a warning. check out the thread in my signiture for some infos on brokers

January 11th, 2016

Here is my Bit4X review:

I sent $5000 usd worth of bitcoin into Bit4X almost one month ago.

The deposit was applied to my Bit4x account within 24 hours.

The MT4 trading platform runs extremely smooth with this broker.
 There are no lags, and the platform has never crashed.

 Buys and sells were just about instantaneous using the platform; and probably the best performance I've seen in 15 years of trading.
  I did Not encounter any brokers tricks while using the platform.

 Yesterday, I requested a sizable withdraw, about 13K usd worth of bitcoin.

 The withdraw was processed promptly within 24 hours, and now I have the bitcoins in my wallet.

 ** All in All, I am very impressed with Bit4X and I will definitely utilize them again in the future.

 The ONLY negative that I have, is that my Bit4X account balance value floats up & down with the price of bitcoin.

 Hope this helps other traders.

ADDENDUM: I realize that many of you may ask why I would send this broker $5K right off the bat?
 The reason is that after reading all the past reviews about Bit4X, I decided that the allegations against the owner are frivolous.
So, I decided to make the deposit into Bit4X.

And now, the owner has confirmed his good business integrity.

And this is how it worked:

I deposited 5K usd worth of bitcoin into Bit4X

The 5K was converted into an internal denomination called a mBTC  (1000 mBTC = 1 Bitcoin)

https://bit4x.com/news

So at the time the 5K was worth 11000 mBTC

I ended up withdrawing a little over 30000 mBTC yesterday.

The MT4 platform only allowed me to withdrawal 9999.99 mBTC per transaction, so I had to make 4 transactions.

Then, the Bit4X admin combined all four of the MT4 transactions into one Bitcoin withdrawal request, destined for my outside wallet address.

Guys take care with bit4x. They are forex scammers. They never send my money back and now they deleted my live account with my money

Hi,

with great displeasure we are informing you Bit4X is shutting down.

Note that your balances are safe, however we occurred uncircumventable problems between our liquidity providers and clearing operations.
Therefore we ask you to close your open orders by the end of Fridays (tomorrow) market hours and then proceed to withdraw.
We realize the notice is sudden - this is because we tried until the end to alleviate the mentioned issues in order to continue our operations,
however this proved to be impossible. It is likely our price feeds will be offline by Monday.

We sincerely thank you for trading with us.

Best regards,
Bit4X team

Wow, could you provide more details?

I'm not asking you to name names or provide confidential information.

I just want to understand the mechanics of this forced shutdown.

Was it regulatory, i.e. KYC/AML issues, or something else?

Note:  I am not a customer but was planning to open a live account in the next few months.

We are still working on keeping the business ruining but it is not looking too well.

All best,
Maja


Thats all emails.

I close all orders on Friday and asked withdrawal.

Funds received.

Sorry to hear about your troubles!
For anyone looking to an alternative: https://1broker.com

I always warned about this broker, incl. in this topic