Bitcoin Forum

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010238.html

Is it legit?
Was this the same email address that was hacked a while ago?
If you think it was him/her/they, why didn't he PGP sign this message?

No, it isn't legit. Either it was the old hack account again.

Satoshi's public address was a gmx one. And that was gotten into a long time ago. PGP key or GTFO.

What the actual fuck lol .
It looks fake , without PNG key he can't proove shit so yeah .. also I'am not sure when you see the email on that page but here is the one hacked : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=775174.0
I guess Theymos could confirm if the emailed used on that page is one of Satoshi email adresses.

satoshi at vistomail.com ?

Just as the prophesy has predicted. The Great Satoshi War of 2015 has begun.
The next Satoshi to appear will say the opposite.
But neither will be the true Nakamoto till the one with PGP arrives.

This is fake as fuck but on a side note does anybody think that Satoshi will ever return in any way? Maybe if the Core vs XT battle becomes absolutely critical for some kind of authoritative decision? Is Satoshi even still alive?
Many unanswered questions.......

Well satoshi has/had the patience and discipline to not spend his 1 million coins.
Something tells me he'll have the same discipline not to intervene in the blocksize debate.
He needs to test to see if this experiment, a decentralized currency system, can work or not.

Peter Todd is probably the one posting from it:

https://i.imgur.com/sBbmYWW.jpg

Peter is strongly against XT, Hearn and Gavin's proposed solutions. But I don't think he would stoop as low as pretending to be satoshi.

Although i'm fairly certain that Satoshi didn't author this, atleast it was composed in a way that it seams plausible that he would author it.

I don't think he's behind it tho, for the sole reason that he was advocating decentralization in every form, so that means from within bitcoin development too.
Let community decide on who they will follow..

This. I don't trust Hearn at all, not one bit. I could be totally wrong but there's something sleazy about him. I don't like him & will continue to stick with Core until/unless it becomes totally necessary to migrate to XT.

I'm hoping that maybe the Core devs will come to some kind of compromise on a block size increase eventually. I don't want to use XT right now.

Dont think so highly of the turd. When money is involved and you're losing  a "battle" you would do stupid shit like this

A while back, Satoshi's other email address satoshin@Gmx.com was confirmed to be compromised. This vistomail email address was not known to be compromised as far as I know, however we should assume it is unless we receive a signed mesage from satoshi stating otherwise.

Hahha if bitcoiners are just all fools like you , bitcoin would have died long ago.

This is not polictic you dont vote your president candidate, you dont use "trust" by just looking that their face, speech and all the PR stunt.

You look at the code, merits of the idea and you go.

People do strange things, the writing style is consistent with Todd.

This is just a result of what happens when we start to look towards people like Peter Todd, tensions and personalities flare at the risk of losing status within the community.

I agree, if the address was proven to be compromised, without his PGP key nothing should be trusted as a valid founder statement.
I believe he knows better than to post something important with no proof that he is who he claims to be.

Unrelated to his or impersonator's identity, i do think that bitcoin needs to advance and constantly evolve in a way that makes it cutting edge,
but i am not convinced that XT is the answer. However, if the community wants it, it's the way that it will be, i just hope it wont start of a conflict within the community.

The more we debate, the more it seams that someone is utilizing the old "Divide and conquer " technique ?!

I am not claiming to be aware of all the ins and outs on both sides of this debate, but from what I have read/understood so far, on this point I can agree.

Seems that both sides are tossing up arguments, oftentimes in the form of FUD. This only serves to leave newcomers and people not up to speed on such things left with the impression of infighting and therefore an overall less trustworthy opinion of the community and Bitcoin as a whole. I think we can already see this reflected in the price, and I wouldn't doubt it continues to drop until this is resolved.

Here's an interesting addendum - https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg06194.html

According to that Satoshi never added a PGP signature to anything.

If that is the case then there's no real way of ever proving who Satoshi is beyond moving the relevant coins. Even then that would only prove that someone had access to those coins.

Satoshi has reached permanent ghosthood.

This is true. He never PGP signature to anything. The only way would to sign transactions on his coin stash which he has never done. For all we know this was designed this way so nobody would ever know if the 'real' Satoshi was speaking on behalf an issue like we've seen.

yep i feel we will never know.
until he votes with his money - but its too risky for him to do that at this point..

Here is a link to a Satoshi Nakamoto PGP Key.
https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/commit/19e0c74df2162d4510db5df9e50d5ac53b38c498 (https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/commit/19e0c74df2162d4510db5df9e50d5ac53b38c498)

More in-depth look: http://pastebin.com/Ct5M8fa2

thanks for sharing :)

The fact that he never signed anything with his key is irrelevant. If it is really him, he must be aware by now that we all believe he is MIA and therefore must prove his identity. As people say on the internet, "tits or GTFO", this time is signature or GTFO

The email that sent that email has been used by satoshi before in the early days of bitcoin. You can see it in the masking list archives.

I would also like to point out (it was not mentioned in the above pastebin post)
that the email username could have expired and thus been re-registered by someone else.
This is what occurred with the satoshin@gmx.com account.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=775174.msg8734884#msg8734884 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=775174.msg8734884#msg8734884)

Use of the satoshi@vistomail.com account does not guarantee that the statement in question came from Satoshi Nakamoto.

If (and a huge *if* that is) Satoshi decided he needed to make a point .. why would he not do it with the technology he created? Sign a message using one of his private keys on the bitcoin blockchain.
Something for everyone to see and no-one to dispute.

Problem with that post is you can't prove its *not* him.

For all we know he dumped all the priv keys for everything when he decided to quit, wallets, accounts, PGP key and all.  We've all done similar at some point in our lives, made a decision with a sure mind, and removed all ability to recover it, burned the bridge so to speak.

If those accounts had indeed been compromised, I think it's fair to assume that the attackers of those accounts would "chime in" as Satoshi more than just twice.   Any activity on those accounts has the power to influence, or at least sow the seed of doubt/FUD which the attackers could then profit. 

Yet since he left, we've seen 1 occurrence to clear Dorian's name, and this today expressing his disappointment on the block size issue.  If anyone other than Satoshi held control of those accounts, I wager that position would be milked dry for personal gain.

You make a very good point, we don't know if it wasn't him and if an attacker did have access to his email, why is this the only time he is trying to sway public opinion?
I don't think it's him, because I don't think he would get involved with the blockchain debate.
I'd like to hear what Gavin thinks about all this. Does he think it's Satoshi? And if so, Satoshi handed him the torch and then this email comes out scolding him, it's quite a dramatic turn of events.

I see what you mean, but we can prove it's not him if he doesn't sign it fast.

From what we know of Satoshi, what you're saying is highly improbable (although not impossible, obviously). Satoshi questioned why would anyone throw a wallet away for any reason, and said on the forums we should always keep a wallet. So he most probably did not throw any keys away.

If someone has full control of his accounts and no access to his PGP key, he can only troll.

It was not Satoshi who wrote the post "I am not Dorian Nakamoto".
That was the person who re-registered his account after it expired.
GMX.com confirmed it and, I think, has locked that account now from registration.

And for what its worth, IMO I don't think Satoshi Nakamoto is alive anymore.

The message doesn't give the vibe of the real Satoshi.

Exactly why I'm on the fence, he's been out and stayed out of any debate on Bitcoin until now.  He surfaced to clear Dorian's name, which is honourable and is to be expected of someone with his calibre and personality.

I guess it could be a kind of closure for him, perhaps he's been sitting by and has got to the point of disappointment where he feels he needs to speak out one more time.  If it is him, its quite a damning post, not only towards Gavin, but to all of us for letting things get this far.

Oh, I wasn't aware that it was confirmed and that account was locked down.  I thought it was just assumed it was hacked.

True. "I am not Dorian" was more believable even if Dorian is true Satoshi.

Here is where I originally read about the GMX response, at the time all of it happened:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/09/16/satoshi-nakamoto-email-hack/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/09/16/satoshi-nakamoto-email-hack/)

yeah. but Satoshi never made any rage post before, right? so who knows...


aaand that guy emailed theymos asking for coins. even go as far as threatening to hitman theymos.

Its impossible to prove that someone isn't that person, its impossible to prove a falsehood in this manner, only truth can be proven.

If I made a post, yet everyone said it wasnt me, could you prove I didn't make the post when I in fact did?  You can't its impossible, you can only assume its false.

We all have no idea if Satoshi still has his keys to anything or not, regardless of what he advised us to do regarding wallets.  He may have had a fire at home and lost access to his backups? or any other number of "natural" ways to lose his keys.  A lot of events can happen over 5 years since he left, so you can not categorically claim that he still has his keys.

however in this case you can prove its not him with a 30sec google search and it has little to do with the lack of any key ;)

Please explain. How can you 100% prove that it's not him from a google search? What are you google searching? Are you analyzing his previous writings?

Real or not, he's an absentee landlord that has chosen NOW to weigh in with an indictment of Bitcoin-XT? I don't buy it...not at all. And if it were really him, definitely easy enough to prove it. Sign a message with Bitcoin using one of the addresses that contains that hoard of 1 million BTC he's sitting on.

No? Then don't expect anyone to pay any more attention to your rant than anyone else on social media today. Even if it WERE Satoshi, does anyone REALLY care what his intention was, at this point? It's so far beyond that now, that it hardly matters.

It is true, who cares if Satoshi or not

by a quick search of what that email has been used for before.

A - one of the billions of people on this planet wangles their way into a long abandoned account to fuck shit up for whatever agenda they have.

B - the entity himself weighs in after several years of total silence but offers nothing in the way of verifying their identity.

Errrr...

B

Of course this is a legit message from Satoshi; it's double spaced  ::)

It's horseshit. Yet another Satoshi Nakamoto imposter trying to flex his muscle as a "puppet who is boasting about being the new puppet master". It's probably one of the early adopters, core devs, Gavin Andresen, etc. Try to think about motive. First, it's a little change here, a little change there, soon, they'll start changing the actual protocol. They've become a cancer.

I attempted to access the vistomail.com site to read their policy on old email accounts but it's unavailable at present. It says the provider may have suspended it. Was it available earlier today, and if it wasn't how can anyone have sent an email from it? Has the provider disabled it because of the "Satoshi" email?

http://s28.postimg.org/5c1wn9pbh/vistomail_com.jpg

Obviously the author cares enough to fake his identity, to fool idiots like you

Bitcoin forking is an excellent opportunity for speculators to create a panic selling. This Satoshi post is a 100% fake  :D

It's fake, he won't mention his own name together with Obama :D

Anyway that post made some good points

If it were real, the way to prove it would be through the poster signing the message w/ one of satoshis mined block addresses in the block chain. Since thats not the case, its fake.

This is 100% bears play.  They want to panic investors and force to sell BTC. And they must accumulate BTC for future profit. The letter from Satoshi is not genuine, it is fake.

It sucks that this project and the ecosystem and economy that has developed as a result is suffering from a potential coup d'etat...it's ironic because the reality of what may be happening to Bitcoin right now is what Bitcoin was started to become the alternative of.

Power corrupts absolutely...how do we limit the power of those that may be trying to take what is not really theirs to have?

knowledge, something that alot users here are lacking. Thus they spread fear about any change and follow a certain group of ppl like a cult. They even wish/hope Satoshi can weight in on this debate.... and as you can see they're exposed to the hoax as shown in the OP.

If this email were PGP signed, it would have made front page news on most mainstream newspapers.
As it is, it will die a quiet death after some discussion.  :)

what if he lost his private key and the whole wallet altogether, and now the same wallet belongs to someone else, in this case even if he signs a msg with those addresses, he could be an imposter...

there is no way anymore to know if someone is satoshi or not, at 100%

Well obviously it isn't real, however whoever the author is he has made quite some decent points.


Actually if you really consider it, the post contains only good information regarding Bitcoin. The blocksize debate has caused so much unnecessary drama and fruitless discussions. I would not surprised if a few more 'Satoshis' came up with their opinions. I would also not be surprised if the XT group blamed Core developers for this stunt.  ::)

Satoshi Nakamoto is supposed to be one of the people holding the alert private key.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts
He could prove that he is a bitcoin developer by signing a message.

+1

account was hacked and mail was without his PNG key.

Hoax.

Hoax or not it has a good point in what he write. And for the history satoshi was never sign a message. And here a tech analysis of this email

http://pastebin.com/Ct5M8fa2

Are you still sure that this is fake?

I don't think this is legit, and if he really wanted to give his opinion, don't you think he would anticipate people not believing into this message and because of this, he would have singed this message.

And spare me of that BS how Satoshi never signed his messages, this is way to important and I don't see anybody would expect that community acts on this unsigned message.

I don't think it is him because I don't think he would get himself involved in the blocksize debate.
Bitcoin is an experiment to him and he needs to see if it can work without centralized interference.

What is very interesting though is the email address, do we have any records of his vistomail being hacked or ever used before like this? It seems unlikely that a hacker gained access to his email to only post this and not try any other schemes with access to such an important email address.

Well seeing as his email address satoshin@gmx.com was hacked, then we haveto assume that the vistomail one was too. Maybe the gmx.com email address was setup as a "recovery email address" for the vistomail account, so when the hacker compromised the gmx account he was also able to compromise the vistomail one via "forgot password".

If Satoshi were to ever return, he would provide significant proof that it is him with signed messages etc.

So the hacker just held onto the vistomail account for over a year and decided yesterday after Mike's article on medium.com was the perfect time to execute his attack of a post to the mailing list? Wouldn't the hacker rather try to profit by posting it for sale, or leaking old messages, etc.?

I don't know. When he hacked the gmx.com account the first thing he did was send an email to theymos with the message "Michael, send me some coins or I'll hitman you". Theymos immediately reportred that the account was probably hacked. So he doesn't sound like the smartest hacker to me, he blew that opportunity big time. The recent email looks like it was written by a high school student. Who knows what he's thinking really, perhaps he's trying to troll us.

It is also possible that the vistomail account was terminated and the hacker was able to register the email again like how the gmx hacker worked. The vistomail was also a lesser known account so the hacker may not have known that it existed.

For example?

He does sort of have a point. On the flip-side I would say why not discuss it with the Mike Hearn and Gavin offline though ?

What if he is?
I haven't heard much from Gavin or Mike since the alleged satoshi email...

Satoshi wouldn't actually need to write any words to express a negative opinion about recent developments.

All he'd need to do is dump a few thousand BTC from one of his known wallets. 

Why should he dump his bitcoin? What if he lost his keys? It is not so easy like you think. A msg signed from his PGP key would be enough.

I wonder what are the chances that his PNG key got hacked as well somehow, and stolen. IT would be terrible. Imagine if someone was in control of the key (btw isn't it PGP and not PNG?)

Yes, it is PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) key and not PNG, probably a typo mistake.

It has no logic for a hacker to use this email only to take part in a blockchain debate with bitcoin developers.. :P come on guys why are you so blind?

I think Satoshi all of this years has never leave this community and i am very sure that he is still here with his alt account.

You haven't noticed the insane amount of trolling on here? Impersonating Satoshi is the ultimate angle for someone who wants to stir things up for whatever reason.

i am not trolling and this is my opinion. If you think that everyone that has other opinion than you is a troll then you are a facist.

I'm not calling you a troll. I'm saying that a nefarious player's ultimate weapon in Bitcoinland would be to impersonate Satoshi. That's far, far more likely than Satoshi turning up after years of silence. 

and he keep this email account all this years to use it atm?

Who knows? His GMX account was broken into. Maybe it was abandoned and picked up by someone else. I don't know how vistomail works. Perhaps it only recently became possible.

This is a prime moment to try and undermine a position that a lot of people are taking. It's the biggest and most emotive debate that's arisen in a long, long time.

Yes. But that does not change the fact that he posted some really interesting thought. What we are witnessing now: split between core and XT can change everything in the future.
Bitcoin from decentralized entity when majority can vote on changes can become toy of the biggest pools and plaything of most notable developers.

It seems the seams are splitting then?
Sorry, i couldn't resist this absurdly useless post. :)

It's amazingly uninformed for a crypto list, but i guess they are really only about bitcoin after all.
Maybe. But he did have a pgp key from 2008:
pub   1024D/5EC948A1 2008-10-30
uid                  Satoshi Nakamoto <satoshin@gmx.com>
sub   2048g/D6AAA69F 2008-10-30

He should have signed something with it once to make it concrete tho.
There's never a 100% guaranteed way to prove identity, especially a pseudonym, but if he posted a message signed with that pgp key, i'd be inclined to believe it was him.

And. as you say, signing a message with his bitcoin private key would work too.

Use the genesis block address and sign a message.  Otherwise no Satoshi.

I was under the impression his GMX account was not actually "hacked" it was just expired and re-registered by someone else? Hell, for all we know was expired and re-registered by the actual Satoshi. :/

It could be that vistomail.com was compromised. Not the email address, but the entire website or domain. This might be the only way to account for this according to some of the other comments listed here that seem to indicate the site is "down" (it could be that it was compromised and default splash pages are being listed).

It seems clear that the email itself is NOT spoofed given that the IP it came from was listed as an authorized IP via the vistomail.com SPF record.

I guess I'd echo some of the sentiments here in that it's okay to be skeptical, but I wouldn't just dismiss this as "fake" yet.

2nd'd... trollers gunna troll.

That's all this is.

you think that he is so stupid to dump at this current rate when there was a 1200 peak and all kind of better price than this?

would be the stupid move ever

FACT 1: Someone claiming to be Satoshi writes that he might have no choice but to declare Bitcoin a failed project because of Hearn's and Andresen's hard fork.

FACT 2: Real Satoshi or not, zero fucks were given by Bitcoin

FACT 3: there is no evidence of satoshi (at) vistomail.com having being compromised.

SPECULATION + OPINION: The message is consistent with Satoshi's writing style, which at the same time is inconsistent with the writing style of the guy who hacked satoshin@gmx.net + past obvious impostors. Taking into consideration this and other factors I believe that it is reasonably possible that the message comes from the real Satoshin but, real or not, my opinion on his message won't change: I agree with him, Bitcoin was designed to be protected from the influence of charismatic leaders, but I really don't understand all this drama. Bitcoin *needs* to evolve even in times of strong disagreement, and thankfully enough it is an open source project, which means that forks are expected.

Just consider XT a new alt-coin, promoted by two charismatic Bitcoin Core devs using aggressive marketing tactics. If this new alt-coin brings any good and replaces vanilla Bitcoin is yet to be seen (I honestly doubt it), but is nevertheless an interesting development to watch unfold and yet another test to the resilience of the Bitcoin concept. I certainly think that such a change in the block size, which could be a huge security risk, is better to be tested on an alt-coin such as XT than on Bitcoin Core. The only block size change proposal I've read so far and that I consider sane and reasonable enough to be implemented in Core is Sipa's "Block size according to technological growth" (https://gist.github.com/sipa/c65665fc360ca7a176a6).

Excellent post, the best I have read in a long time. This post alone deserves it's own thread IMO.

Whomever wrote that, made a whole lot of sense. Today it's the block size, tommorow it's the amount of coins that rewards the miners...Where do we draw the line? Mike & Gavin wants a dictatorship control over

Bitcoin, and it will enable them to make huge changes, possibly with minimal consensus... if they gather enough support with the same tactics they used to grow Bitcoin XT support. 

I would much rather see a more decentralized and global development team of engineers representing Bitcoin... not 2 guys on a power trip.  ::)

If Satoshi wants to get his message out.. He could just send a few Satoshi's from one of his well known Bitcoin addresses and attach a little message.  ;D

Sane proposal? which only gives us 10mb Block in 2030 ?

Its opposite of sane, its MADNESS. Did you even check his pessimistic view of the technological growth?

 

let me debunk this imposter "satoshi" with the actual satoshi's own words:

Satoshi Nakamoto - Bitcoin Whitepaper (http://"https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf")

Limiting the block size to 1 MB makes the above quote impossible at some point in Bitcoin's future.

Bitcoin users relying on any 3rd party company (Blockstream or Lightning Network) goes against the very essence of why bitcoin was created.

The etymology is different
But the point put across is interesting and similar to Satoshi
It seems like a possible post from him and I would not suspend disbelief at this point in time. (Vistomail)

A PGP key would have been ideal but for this sort of statement at the least it seems to be worth meriting especially since he mentioned pool mining and centralization issues especially Nodes. Bitcoin is free and dynamic and should remain so but incentivizaion may be needed in some areas to keep the system as free as it is.

The "payment channels" and the way lighting network works is not a good solution IMO. Whose to say that XT is the ONLY solution to larger blocks? XT can support larger blocks sooner than core, that doesn't mean that core won't support larger blocks or that it is wise to switch to XT for the sole purpose of having a quick solution to larger blocks.

I don't see why, considering that Satoshi never cryptographically signed any communication, despite of what uninformed journos are writing on mainstream media.

Considering that this message (https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010238.html) comes from the email address used to discuss Bitcoin for the very first time as back as 2008, and that the email headers confirm that it was not spoofed (https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010329.html), it is reasonable to think that this message might very well have been sent by Satoshi himself. If its not, no big deal: just rememember that all these quotes coming from his posts are also unsigned, and they are stored in a centralized database that has been hacked a few times in the past....

I speculate that Satoshi never cryptographically signed any communication on purpose: he is looking for plausible deniability, and that's a way of ensuring no absolute power by a single, central authority who could irrefutably prove his identity.

The important thing: Bitcoin the protocol gives zero fucks about all this controversy.

This, to me, is like a father leaving his children with their mother and vanishing for four years, then sending her a letter expressing his disapproval of how she is raising his kids. Give me a break.

Did you really not read a single post in this thread just so you could spam an altcoin that everyone is already aware of?  This thread is about the alleged email from Satoshi scolding the XT fork not who he is or if he exists.

Apologies for the negativity, I just think the communities is misplacing their energy. I don't believe that was SN

So you agree the only reason you posted on this thread was to spam a coin that only exists because the person "who may or may not" exist laid the blueprint and did all the work for Charlie Lee?
Let's stay on topic here, shall we? And keep altcoin discussion in the altcoin section.

Actually, let's keep it on topic. If it was SN BTC is in a very bad position which sucks. I've been putting away BTC for my God son because I believe in it. If the project is considered failed, what's to not have him dump coins from the genesis block and cause hysteria. If it wasn't SN, you have some one that's artificially introducing a divide into the community for probably their own gain. Dishonesty, which is contradictory to what SN was try to circumvent by removing centralized authority of our money.

Again apologies for the initial posting.

Agreed. But if Gavin and Mike are going rogue then I'm glad Satoshi said something about his disapproval.


What if he destroyed those keys? It's possible he got rid of them.


If it wasn't him then someone has access to a very powerful email address, and they haven't used it for anything else nefarious except that one email. It seems strange to me that a thief would show such restraint.


NP, we're all on the same team, team crypto ;)

With the keys, I could see intentionally destroying them. He did not 'lose' them, that's a certainty in my mind. He could have kept them for, I don't know, leverage for something like this. It's 5"/50, I personally believe they exist.

Unfortunately it's that pesky human factor which wrecks countless wonderful ideas. I don't think BTC will be any type of exception.