Bitcoin Forum

What do you think about this phrase told it by Simon Dixon: our financial problems are derived from money, “simply because money is debt.”

Chek out the article and tell us what do you think about that.

http://cointelegraph.com/news/115231/simon-dixon-bitcoin-solves-3-major-problems-in-the-financial-system

Well maybe, but i think the true problem are technology, looks like very few politics and economist talk about it they fear this...

Who will consume if technology make people unemployed? it's a vicious spiral, enterprises replace people with machines to be more competitive, then these unemployed people lose their consume capacity so enterprises go bankrupt.

In the end only a few big corporations are still making some money but they will disappear too, this system is gone because of technology we will have to make a new one.

Money is a ledger to keep track of when who did what.

If you create ledger inputs without being productive (print fiat), you are counterfeiting.

Financial problems are created by the ones who counterfeit (large central banks).

what i think that every problems about financial crisis and everything else is only imputable to one thing, that everyone is udnestimating, this is the overpopulation

if we were 1B at max i'm sure this world would have been a better place, from every point of view

Overpopulation is eugenesic bullshit, same will happen in a super technological society with 7b, 1b or 100k people...

You cannot even measure overpopulation reliably when evening is driven by an unlimited supply of value tokens (fiat)
Once the money supply is limited and economies run on it you can tell if there is overpopulation or not

no it isn't, it's the evil of the all thing, on this world, if there were few people in the world, less job would have been needed and there would be a condition to create more without overwhelming it

no intensive farming, less smog, less pollution of any kind etc, the list is so long is not even funny....

we have exceeded the good ratio between max population and what they need

That's only true because people spend more than they deserve due to unlimited printing of value tokens.
Remove the current financial system and there could be an opportunity to equilibrium again

Bullshit, technology will soon destroy all jobs and even only one human alone in the entire world will be unemployed.

Thats why politics, corporations and bakns are just stealing everything they can before that happen, they know it will happen.

Bullshit. First technology invented (the wheel) did not create unemployment. It created human progress and a higher standard of living. Even the wheel needed maintenance and improvement which created jobs.

We will see soon, people are even paying for a slave and shit job...  :P

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Take profit with your knowledge.

Until now the elite was responsible for distributing wealth, but in the near future they will be in charge of distributing poverty, until the technology end all jobs.

Then came the most important transition of humanity, evolve or cause our own extinction.

Inevitably this will happen, it's the law of evolution.

Our problem right now lies in the system. Not that we can do anything about it. It all stems from greed and the system is easily manipulated.

Saying that our financial problems are derived from money (because it is debt) is like saying our murder problems are derived from bullets.

This. What you want to say is, "Our financial problems are derived from government issued fiat."

I edited your quote, this way it is more realistic.

Toilet paper ponzi fiat currency is not money. Its just a "bank-note", which is a fancy way to sell scam financial instruments to the gullible public.

This is make sense and obvious.


Why there are still people suppose, if bitcoin is ponzi scheme ::)

GREED ---- is the problem

There are many problems of which one is “money” The problem with “money” is that is not money but currency, fiat currency without any value at all currency that was borrowed into existence.

Have you heard of the term "Luddite"?
You should look it up.  :)

Thinking that this will apply forever (new technology creating new jobs) is complete nonsense. Jobs are being replaced by new technology faster than new jobs arise. Look at the facts. In the past in a Volkswagen factory you would need 30 people to make a car, now less than 8. Soon this will be 1 person only supervising the automated machine. Same for all jobs. It's unavoidable. There are less and less new jobs coming up, and not everyone can be an engineer.

I don't know why most people are saying that money is debt, maybe because they have never created money, but only borrowed money

For money creators, money is not debt but asset. I think every bitcoin miner understand that

You can enforce a policy like in China, each couple are only allowed to have one child. So that population will start to decrease after some generations

Even so, I think that the advance in technology would still outpace the speed of population decrease, so that even you get less and less human on earth, there is still more and more people become jobless

The problem is rooted from the market based economy: In a market economy, you have to give out something in exchange for something, so called fair trade principle. So when some powerful entity with millions of robots can produce anything you need but demands nothing from you, they can let you starve without feel bad, because you can not provide anything that they need, thus no trade will happen (jobless)

Why there is a such fatal flaw in market based economy? Because it is established in a very old environment where many demand can not be satisfied due to low productivity and low technology level

So how to deal with a society with high productivity and less future demand? The prevail solution is to give welfare to those who can not produce anything useful, keep them a decent level of living: Anyway the society can afford it due to extremely high productivity

But this model is against market based economy, because there is no fair trade in this process, the producers should not give out products for free. So in order to make it happen, the government will pay a fair price to those producers by handling out social security check to jobless people, and these money are either gathered by taxing producers or borrowed from future (inflation taxes everybody)

The question is: Is this way long term sustainable?

This analogy doesn't make sense. Debt isn't to financial problems as bullets are to murder problems. And I don't know of a better analogy using murder and bullets (it just doesn't work). But debt is the root of the financial problems in the world. If no one borrowed (literally, fractional lending too) we wouldn't have the same financial problems...we also wouldn't have a lot of research, technology, buildings, goods, or prosperity.

Debt creates opportunity, which is good. But it makes people slaves and controls lives, which is bad.

We can't cure all the financial problems in the world but we can influence them from the ground up. Don't borrow so much money. Don't let debt exist on your personal balance sheet for full term. If we all borrowed less we would change a lot of the financial problems in the world.

Gold, silver and bitcoin are money, but fiat currencies aren’t money, fiat currencies are borrowed into existence that’s why some people call this as debt. Anyway it’s better to have fiat than to not have it.

"borrowed into existence" is a typical misleading explanation trying to confuse people.  Banks can not lend out something that they don't have. If that money does not belong to bank, the borrower does not have to return the loan, this will cause the system to crash

So banks must first create the money and claim the ownership of those money, only after that they can start to lend out money

No, its madness that is the problem.

Greed is needed to evolve humanity. If people are not greedy, and not create businesses, you`d have no job/ income.

But when Greed turns into madness, then things get fucked up.


The problem is that "money" , or fiat currency, is the fundamentum of the economy.

If you dilute it, you fuck everything up, except yourself, temporarly, but after the house of cards collapse, the elite will lose quadrillions of $ too.

The amazing thing is, if you dilute it, you become the hero, because now those excessive products will find some buyer and companies can start to produce more and hire more ;D  People will work more when they see more money, so the more money printing will create more productivity. As long as people trust their fiat money, money printing works perfectly

And elite have all turned their printed money into hard assets, even the fiat money collapsed, they won't get hurt

I dont agree, most of the printed money is just gambled in derivative ponzi schemes, or dubious "shadow banking" assets.

If they were atleast invested in the stock market or some public funds, but they arent. Yes there is invesment in treasuries, and stocks but most of it isnt.

Now its obvious that they dont give the money to the poor, because that would create instant hyperinflation (as poor people consume, while rich investors just sit on their pile of inflated cash). The whole point of the keynesian economy is to print money, and create jobs with it, but make the inflation trickle down slowly, to make bigger benefits than losses.

However we all know that in reality the keynesian scheme is pretty doomed by start. It is a ponzi scheme , and eventually it will collapse, creating more havoc that it created benefits.

It's the law of diminishing returns, and we are just about back to 0, as the global interest rates indicate this pefrectly, and about to go negative :D

If the elite sits on their derivative scam assets, they will lose too, and perhaps much more in terms of % of wealth than the poor.

He told:

“Positive balance in a bank account simply is somebody else’s debt, which is created into existence by the banks. 97% of the money in the economy is created this way, which means the only way to drive sustainability of an economy is to have more debt.”

I think that this is not true. Positive balance on the bank is created by the value added which come from the work of the employers of the bank. It is own by the bank and is not taken by everyone. So it is not of "somebody else's debt".    

Then he told:

“The reason that we have financial problems today is because we are trapped in a multi-decade Ponzi scheme, where in in order to have an economy, we have to have more debt,” he continued. “The reason for that is simply because money is debt. In order to have a growing and stimulating economy, you have to have governments take on more debt, you have to have individuals take on more debt, you have to have corporations take on more debt.”  

It is true that the world is full of debts and all those written above are real. But then what? The debt is an legal institution which is regulated by law and when become unsustainable there are rules which manage and solve it. For the all the other cases taken or having a debt is not a problem since the moment when you are able to pay it.            

OK let me clarify.

Our financial problems are derived from the existance of printed fiat currency, and not money.

MONEY =/= PRINTED FIAT CURRENCY!

Yes, I do believe that financial problems are derived from money if we consider money as debt, maybe i am wrong :) but this is what i believe.

IF werent the money ,would be the ambicious why would you have the same car as others? People is the big problem ,the people who handle the money taken to restruture the economy of each country.Money isnt the problem ,people are the problem,they wanna to show off ,called vip,or actors or others....

Money and debt are 2 different things. There are monetary systems, (in the academic books), without debt.

In the current system, they are the same. When you have money, you are indebted towards the creators of it, the central banks.

Because you dont own that money, you just borrowed it.

If this is an answer for my post I don't understand what do you mean and at what you are referring. In my explanations is spoken about positive balance in the banks and about the debt. There are not in those explanations about financial problems.

Sorry if your post have nothing to do with my post.

And since are here can you explain better what is the difference between money and printed fiat currency and why our financial problems are derived from the existence of printed fiat currency and not money. Seems an interesting topic and I'm curious to learn more.

It is not true. If I have money earned with my work that money are mine. Are not borrowed by no one (nor from the Central Bank, nor from my employer, nor by no one other) but my property. Fact is that that money can be spent in the way I do and I spend those in the way I do. I do this thing with my money and never no one have come to me to take those or to ask those. I have spent thousand and thousand of money since I had the first one and no one have told me why you have made this or give me that money. And never will come to ask for take those. Even if will come I will call the police and that man will go in jail.

Because I wasnt replying to you there, i was just posting along the thread.

Well, the same way as your roll of toilet paper is not money, there isnt much difference between that and what you got in your wallet. Printed currency is not money because it doesn't fulfill the requirements of money:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2009/Apr/article_id1708_01.gif


Hahaha the brainwashing works.

You don't earn money when you go to work, you are given a scam paper certificate. The same way you are scammed to work for a paper crap, the same way the vendors, consumers, producers, investors are also fooled by that.

That currency comes into existence by being borrowed from the CB, and it's passed along the economy. You are also paying interest on it in forms of taxes, which are going directly in the pockets of the CB to pay the interest on this ponzi loan.

I suppose. If you make up random requirements like "Intrinsic value" :-\
Start educating yourself here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money

You all keep thinking the problems is derived from the money but isnt ,problem name of the financial problems is PEOPLE,politicians ,who manage the country.

Wow, the stupidity know to write. I'm trying to expostulate with your mind even it is hard for me. Can you tell me why the bakers give you bread (with which you feed your wonderful mind) if the money you give to him are not yours? Why him must accept money that are not yours? Why not him go with his bread to some other person which produce the thing he need and made barter. In this way he don't have debit and live his life happy and free. Not only this. You are a thief because you take something that is not yours. Conclusion: you must go to jail.

Not only this. Your money are not yours but are borrowed from I don't know who. You will have never your money to pay off your debt because there are not possibility to own money in your economy. You will work like a mule but you will not be paid for your work. You will have only borrowed money. A little stupidity this thing for me but me are a brainwashing and I don't understand these things. But I have a question. Do you accept that you are a mule? Because the mule work and never is paid. But even the mule take something for its work: the food. You don't have nor that. Here rise another question: Accept you that you are worst than a mule?

The only way to be free in this society is by having a passive income that is enough to sustain all your basic needs AFTER taxes. There's no way around it. Avoiding taxes is just not a good idea, I want to be able to sleep at night. So unless anyone has a better plan, the only way is to do it within the rules. Now in regards to Bitcoin, you could spend here 10 years and make 100 BTC Posting and have a lot of money in untaxed Bitcoin form, but as soon as you want to buy something that will deliver passive income like a house so you can rent it, you will need to get it taxed. So yeah, there's no escape for taxes.

The problem is usury.

"The Usury Problem Remains"

"Several Hundred Years Later Aristotle (384-322 Bc) Formulated The Classical View Against Usury. Aristotle understood that money is sterile; it doesn’t beget more money the way cows  beget more cows. He knew that “Money exists not by nature but by law”:

“The most hated sort (of wealth getting) and with the greatest reason, is usury, which makes a gain out of money itself and not from the natural object  of it. For money was intended to be used in exchange but not to increase at interest. And this term interest (tokos), which means the birth of money from money is applied to the breeding of money because the offspring resembles the parent. Wherefore of all modes of getting wealth, this is the most unnatural.”  (1258b, POLITICS)"

http://www.monetary.org/the-usury-problem-remains/2010/12

So why would anybody lend you any money if they dont get interest on it?

Or you are implying that the capital raising should only be done by stock markets and crowdfunding?

At this point those person ,Aristotle ,should be alive to rewrite some things ,one of them would be those about the money ,at this stage makes no sense to live without the lending process.Some big projects turn live because these feature ,without it several things we have now wouldnt be possible.Soo money isnt a problem at all who steal it and give it a bad use are the ones that we should accuse .