Bitcoin Forum

As you all know, Nefario's erratic behavior during the past month rendered asset issuers unable to fulfill their obligations to share owners, with hopes of recovery slipping slowly from the realm of the probable to the realm of possible as the weeks went by.

With the recent disappearance of the glbse server from the Internet (502 Bad Gateway as of yesterday) any sort of recovery seems moreover improbable. Consequently we regretfully announce that should the ownership situation of GIGAMINING not be remedied by December 1st, F.GIGA.ETF will be delisted and all shares held discarded as worthless.

The symbol is not currently locked from trading nor will it be locked up until that date, however volume has been consistently zero for the past few weeks. With this we also kindly ask all our full service brokers to check with any clients placing orders on that symbol and make sure they are in fact up to date.

Does this have anything to do with GIGAMINING from gigavps?
I haven't seen anything about this in the original gigamining thread.

Response from gigavps, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=75802.msg1307558#msg1307558

Well yes, a sort of pass-through I guess.

K. So, I had 10,000 of these babies, and now they're disappeared?

Now that giga is returning money, I presume that you'll receive some and pass that on to holders of F.GIGA.ETF?

Also, there should be a receipt (somehow) when something is removed from my portfolio. As it stands, I have zero record of what's happened with those shares (since they were apparently deleted or something?)

Giga is talking about paying back previous dividends, and the current value, and I would expect that to be passed through. Or is this somehow not the case?

Looks like youve been screwed by another exchange....

I believe the technical term is "fucked"

And, I certainly hope not.

But....At this point it would not surprise me.

Well  since its a passthrough MPEX would need to send all their personal info to reclaim the shares.

This is correct. I've kindly asked Mircea to reconsider and he declined.

Who was operating the passthru?

Thats kinda jerky if theres still bonds outstanding and almost scammy if it isnt bought back while there are still holders of the asset.

Wait. wut?

So.........looks like MPEx is indeed fucking it's customers? Mircea won't send information to James, therefore Mircea's customers are screwed.

Mircea, you should have thought of that. You still owe the money to your investors. To not pay because you're unwilling to receive the money is wrong.

Scammer tag seems imminent.  :P

This has been amply discussed on irc about a month or so ago. It's preserved here (http://polimedia.us/trilema/2012/conversation-discarded-as-worthless/). Read that, come back.

I fail to see the relevance of that speculative conversation in the face of actual real offers to return funds to you.

If you fail to claim your funds from gigamining then you're ignoring your fiduciary duty to your investors.

If you refuse to return funds received, you're stealing from your investors.

There are no other options for what is currently going on.

Either way, no one should do business with you until such time as you make your investors whole.

The thing that's speculative is this conversation.

Pray, tell, what are we speculating on?

Either you're going to claim the funds and return them, or you're failing in your duty to your investors.

Which is it? There are no other options.

Really, read the quoted discussion rather than trying to re-enact it as if it were fresh.

Fuck it. I give up. I will liquidate all my MPEx positions and withdraw my funds. I will then consider selling the account. Dealing with Mircea is fucking pointless. He'll attempt to bully everyone and make himself out to be Big Tough and Right (regardless of the truth) and then he'll just walk off with the money.

Typical Exchange Operator, stubborn prick, willing to fuck over investors and likely steal their money.

Eh simmer down will you. What are you on about anyway?

I see no need to simmer down until you show that you're going to pay investors in F.GIGA.ETF. (which you certainly seem to have been shown to have exactly zero intention in doing)

All I see is a non-worthless asset removed from my portfolio

I'm on about that.

What are you on?

It doesn't answer the $64,000 question: Are you attempting to go through Giga's process to recover some of your investors' funds? If not, why not? I'm not implying that you don't have good reasons, just that you haven't made clear what they are.

I read the conversation MPOE-pr posted.

I see:

- Mircea justifying his inability to be patient.


- Mircea justifying not keeping any record of the shares.


- Mircea claiming that GLBSE was dead and not responding to anyone.  (In fact many people were in contact with James, and some lists were in fact released, and other than for a day or two the site was in fact up the majority of November.)


- Mircea clarifying his attitude toward the shareholders that used GLBSE:



- Mircea shuts down an attempt at reasoning with him:  (actually this happens several times)


.... The rest of it loops repeatedly.  

In summary:


To which I'll add... perhaps not in function, but clearly in form.

The whole thing reeks.  Maybe Mircea doesn't intend to gain financially from this, but he's definitely screwing everyone that held shares on MPEx.  (his own exchange!)

He could however, still make it right.  Cross your fingers?

I may be willing to make the claim on behalf of Mircea, or whoever was his proxy. I would need to arrange the details with Mircea, but I don't mind to take in charge the bureaucratic task.

Then I could receive claims from the etf holders, (preferably a signed receipt from the exchange, right after the asset wasn't trade-able any more) and I can setup a system to distribute the dividends, maybe discounting the expenses. My own claim is this:


So, my self interest is that of the assets holders.

Would you see it workable?

I doubt you did. Maybe you skimmed it, maybe you gave up halfway through, but at any rate you left out the parts that actually matter.


For some reason this seems to not be easily understood. I have no idea why, it's right there. But anyway: as long as you have a legitimate claim you'll be paid.


Again, as above. What's unclear/not obvious about this?


The shares, like it or not, are worthless. They're dead, the interplay of Nefario, lawyers and whatnot has rendered GIGAMINING and derivative shares useless. Like it or not, this is a fact. The only end game for this is going to be some sort of settlement payment from Giga. If and when that happens, it will probably make sense to make a claim. Yet again, what's not obvious, reasonable or logical about this?

Sometimes y'all act as if this were the first time you were involved in financial transactions, I swear.


I don't think that's going anywhere.


No.

This however has no bearing on the investors' rights (which seems to be, possibly, the mistake everyone is making?).

burnside - that's how every conversation with Mircea goes. Thus I saw little point in digging through it looking for where he said he was going to pay, and instead noticed the key points you have shown us.  And, yes, he could still make it right, but as stubborn and arrogant as Mircea is, that seems unlikely. He seems likely to destroy his business with his attitude, and this may just become the final nail in the coffin.

rdponticelli: yeah. I'm sure Mircea would agree to that  ::)

JoelKatz: I appreciate your open mind, but what could that good reason possibly look like? It seems to me there are very few, if any, good reasons to fail to claim money owed to one's investors. Furthermore, since the asset clearly is not worthless shouldn't it be the case that Mircea should owe investors regardless of whether or not he makes a claim to gigavps. I think so. I don't care whether Mircea gets the money from giga, just whether or not he pays investors.

EDIT: So, MPOE-PR graces us by digging out the one nugget of actual information in that pile of drivel. about time.

So. MPOE-PR - please inform us what is the plan for paying out on this asset.

I dunno, dood. So far what I see is you being too agitated to sit down and read, flailing your arms and calling people names. What school of negotiation/conflict resolution is this?

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I honestly can't figure out what you're trying to say. It seems there are only four possibilities:

1) Investors get nothing.

2) You make a payment to investors from your own pocket.

3) You pursue going through Giga's claim process and pass any funds you reclaim to investors.

4) You pursue some other source of recovery, such as suing GLBSE or negotiating with Giga, and pass any funds (perhaps less expenses) you reclaim to investors.

I think your comments rule out 1 and 3, but I'm not quite sure. You seem to be hinting at something with "This however has no bearing on the investors' rights", but I can't figure out what. Are you deliberately trying to be vague and evasive or am I missing something?

Whatever. Let us know when you're going to pay out. While you're at it, returning the proof I would need to "make a legitimate claim" wouldn't be a half bad idea.

MPEx removed a non-worthless asset (it may have been non-tradeable, but that doesn't make it worthless - you show your own financial ignorance at times)

MPEx uses STAT output for proof of ownership of assets, as this is gpg signed by the exchange.

That proof is no longer available in asset holders' accounts, as it has been removed.

With the communication typical of exchange operators, MPEx has done exactly zip to assure investors they'd be paid.

I am not failing my arms. But, I don't see the need to read pages of shit that mircea posts in order to get the one piece of information MPOE-PR is too lazy (on the first go 'round) to post "her"self. And, MPOE-PR/Mircea, if you can't take name calling, don't dish it out. You're one of the most offensive posters in all of bitcoin (I'm sure I'd not get much argument on THAT point!)

Why not?

There's a procedure in place to claim the (pretty big) value our investment has accrued. You're refusing to follow it. I'm being supportive and understanding and I'm considering that you may have your good reasons (privacy, laziness, who knows or cares?) to act this way, and my proposal is even relieving you from that burden. I don't even want to think what motives may you have to refuse even this kind bailout I'm generously offering you.

You already have my public key. Send to me, obviously encrypted, any info I would need to make the claim and I'll take care of everything else...

I'm neither trying to be vague nor to be evasive. I'm trying to separate that which can in fact be answered (what MP will do) from that which cannot in fact be answered (what will happen in the future). Any attempt to conflate elements drawn from these two distinct groups will result in partial answers, only to the first part, for the pretty good reason that nobody can answer as to the second part.

Obviously I understand that everyone would very much want to know "what will happen". Heck, so would I. How do you practically go about it? One day GLBSE is fine, the next it's awol. One day Nefario is giving out info, the next weeks he's not. Then he is. Then the lists are broken. Then Giga wants a ream of paperwork. Then new lists come up. Then who exactly knows what tomorrow brings? I'm sorry, but I can't answer that. All I can say are basic things such as yes, MPEx will pay legitimate claims. Of course it will. Will X claim be legitimate? I don't know. Nobody does. We'll have to get there and see.

Otherwise, the situation is something like this:
a)Mircea Popescu made a pass-through of a GLBSE asset, at no cost, with no performance (which literally means, he was not going to do absolutely anything other than send the money received along to investors).
b)The GLBSE asset was destroyed.
c)The GLBSE asset issuer is trying to create a replacement, which is laudable, but he's doing it in such a way as to put more burden on the pass-through operator than he either promised or offered to take. This is understandable, from that issuer's perspective, for a variety of reasons already discussed in the respective threads, but the fact that it's understandable doesn't make its effects go away. 
d)It is possible that in the future some BTC will flow to ex-GIGAMINING holders through this replacement scheme.

So, investors in F.GIGA.ETF may be entitled to some sort of compensation, but conceivably not until such a time as Giga pays something, not unless they actually claim it and likely a fraction thereof. The complexities of "exactly how much" are significant, and at the rate this is going I imagine will have to be established by Rota.

I don't agree with this a little bit. Mircea keeps claiming this, but nowhere on mpex offer there was a slight mention of glbse. Instead, the only thing there was published on the asset page on mpex was this:


So, I bought a passthrough to giga's bonds, not to glbse.

I seriously don't see the point of re-hashing the linked article here line by line.

Not sure why is this mircea character hiding behind your huge virtual arse? If he has something to say, let him do it under his own name and end this silly charade.

Perhaps in the scam accusations board. Im sure after all your blathering about nefario and glbse over the years you will be able to explain why you deleted assets from peoples accounts and how that makes mpex so much better than every other bitcoin site.

To be very clear, I specifically asked Mircea to make a claim to GLBSE and to me.

He said he would do neither.

Yeah, I read that.  But for that one tidbit, in several other places he says they're worthless.  He also stated that a stat would no longer show your shares, so I'm a little confused as to how someone now uses the stat as evidence of a claim?

See, I also read this:  (prior to reading the linked conversation)


So... perhaps a clearer official response could be assembled by MPEx?

Apparently, she only believes that others should be held to the letter of their agreements. When it's *her* agreement, and people *she* relied on don't do what she relied on them to do, her investors have to eat it.

The funny thing is, if not for her prior positions on Patrick, I'd likely agree with her on this issue.

Which they are. To help bring this point home, the 116,613 block rdponticelli showed would have been worth somewhere between 30 and 50 BTC on the market back in September (before GLBSE collapsed) and was trading for anywhere between 3 and 4 BTC in October (after GLBSE collapsed).

Since then block rewards halved. We're in any event not discussing any sort of fortunes here, even if for a moment we disregard the very obvious fact that GLBSE shares no longer exist nor will they ever exist again which makes any derivatives of them worthless quite plainly.


The delisting of F.GIGA.ETF was announced, in this very thread, and on irc, repeatedly, over a month in advance. The concerns of people interested were discussed, openly, for hours, more than a month ago, by the man in charge himself. People were in fact able to obtain STATs as late as the 3rd, as shown by rdponticelli's STAT above. What exactly do you expect here? If you imagine MPEx is somehow held to keep in its active databases worthless assets just because X amateur investor has not quite reached the intellectual maturity that'd allow him to correctly book losses, you are very much mistaken. MPEx is an exchange, not a laundry list of irrational hopes.


Quote that letter you're talking about. If the next thing you post starts with anything other than that quote or an apology, you're going back on my ignore.

And if they were trading now they would be at... ?


Yeah,
  and ice isn't frozen water.
  and mud isn't wet dirt.
  and gigashares that were on glbse aren't claimable.

oh.  wait.


Kind of a bummer that you have no way to notify shareholders on your exchange when something important comes up.  Everyone has to troll your irc channel or all their investments might *poof* on them.

I would expect the records to be available for the duration of the existence of MPEx.  If that's not possible for technical reasons, I'd say 24 months.  Financial records need to be around long enough to last the year they were traded, plus the following year so that the records are available at tax time.

Cheers.

You seem to be deliberately ignoring the part where you are posting in the very thread announcing this, one month in advance. But no, everybody does not have to anything.

More importantly: this is exactly how things work on that MPEx wanna-be, ie NYSE. You don't follow the news? You miss out. Gotta follow the news. You wanna play the retail investor and not follow (or understand) the news? Use a broker.

I would like to take a moment here to thank you all for having noticed that in fact MPEx gave abundant and sufficient notice of what was going to happen, and for having properly commended MPEx for yet again setting the standard of correct behavior in the field. I would like to also show my appreciation for people having acted responsibly and sanely, instead of waiting a month and a week, until after the announced cutoff. Well done. Oh...wait?


Yet again, you are rehashing dead arguments from a month ago. Mindlessly repeating dead arguments does not breathe one iota of further life into them, they're still dead. Please re-read the linked article. Carefully. Pen in hand if need be.

I maintain that the shares are not worthless, simply untradeable.

Look (obviously MPOE-PR is too financially ineducate to comprehend this point):

If you you bought some AAPL, and then that stock was delisted, do you figure your investment in AAPL is now worthless? Over $500/share and you'd still say it's worthless? The company is still operating and you say the shares are worthless?

MPOE-PR, you should either
A. Learn English (i.e. the definition of "worthless")
B. Go back to finance school, you clearly missed a few days
C. Get "Mr. P" to put the assets back in our portfolios
or
D. Inform Mr. P that the community is going to determine he's a scamming scumbag, and MPEx will quickly go out of business.

Guruvan, what happened, did your honeymoon with Mircea ended?

I do still appreciate that he serves porn to pedo-curious types like yourself.

Advance notice of taking someone of value from someone does not make it ok.  

People are not rehashing dead arguments, they are rehashing points IGNORED by MPEx.  

Guruvan, enjoy Mircea sticking it up your ass. I TOLD YOU SO!!!

I've been through a delisting or two on the NYSE.  I got all kinds of legal mumbo jumbo in my mailbox.  All the shareholders get notified from the company and from the brokers.  MPEx does not give companies or issuers the tools with which to do such a notice.  How the NYSE, NYSE brokers and NYSE issuers handle it is night and day from this.


I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  You're right, going round and round makes no sense.


I don't think document retention should die as an argument until such time as it is fixed.  Simply calling an argument dead because you're sick of it does not make it so.

Cheers.

Looky, in the month prior to delisting the ETF traded something like 3 days out of 30. In the month after that it traded not at all. Its last trades were at the 3 cents on the nominal bitcoin level. You will have a VERY hard time proving something has value that nobody wants to buy.

More importantly, these are arguments that should have been brought a month ago (and were, and didn't carry then).

Someone showing you are wrong does not "ignore it". Somebody not doing what you think they should isn't "scamming you". This very self-centric view of the world is adequate for the mental age of three and for most internet forums, but it doesn't work in finance and it doesn't really work in BTC (even if people like Taaki and forum types figure they're what BTC is all about - they're not).


Does bolding help?


It's really fucking hard to have anonymous exchanges and "the tools", now isn't it? People read if they care. If they don't care to read they don't get to claim they care.


I gather this is your opinion. This is fine, and you're entitled to it, but it is still wrong.


Let me quote from the article you claim to have read but really didn't.


Your insistence to be spared fifteen minutes' worth of quiet reading at the expense of other people babying you, picking out snippets and so forth is really ridiculous. It's not in general speaking practical to expect that clever people will drop whatever it is they're doing and start packaging extant information in little sound bytes you can safely manage just because you're screaming your head off somewhere.

More generally, this nonsense trying to hold a company hostage by some people screaming bloody murder for absolutely no reason, on the general expectation that the company imagines a world full of nitwits will not have the intellectual honesty or for that matter the intellectual capacity of sitting down, reading and getting to the bottom of things has to go. This isn't retail as implemented by some fast food restaurant, and even there calling 911 because the drive through server got your fries as you asked for them rather than as you had wanted them fails to work.

It does.  I think what you're implying by bolding is that:

A) MPEx is not the broker?  In my opinion... MPEx is indeed the broker for many end users, and if you want to call those end users brokers, great, then MPEx is the broker for the brokers?
B) MPEx is not the asset issuer?  In my opinion... (supported by what I've read) MPEx is in fact the asset issuer in this case, and thus responsible to the bond holders?


That wasn't so hard.  Why'd you need to do the whole bolding thing up above?

Since you don't have good notification tools, maybe you could make up for it by not having insta-delistings of valuable assets?



No need to get riled up.  This is a civil discussion.

I don't have a problem admitting to not reading something.  I say I read it = I read it.  I say it was too long = I didn't want to read it.  My retention isn't perfect, but the words entered my brain through my eye sockets.  ;)

It seems like you're confusing the issue somewhat.  I'll try to clarify my understanding of the situation.

*) Mircea said he will keep the records indefinitely in backups, etc.
*) Mircea removed the records from the STAT output, so end users can no longer see the records.

With those two facts in mind, from what perspective do you think I was talking about having access to records for tax purposes?  Mircea's?  Or the bond holders?  Is there an account history command that is available that I am missing?  Seems like you could resolve this particular issue by making it possible to STAT delisted assets.

Heh, and a slight poke... if this isn't retail, then why is the need for a PR person wandering amongst the masses of us poor uneducated serfs?

Cheers.

Who said anything about a letter? I'm summarizing your position in the thread about Patrick and contrasting it with your position here.

You're not very good at bullying. It really makes very, very little difference to me whether you read my posts or not.

Not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you. Oh wait, you're that shill guy trying to obstruct the PH thing, I remember. Ignored.


In my opinion, you're a green daffodil. Does that do anything for you?


You must have read everything except the contract I guess, seeing how it says quite clearly right there who the owner is. But anyway, not the first time you say you read and it turns out you haven't. (For my own curiosity, how on earth did you make it through school like that?! Don't they do RC tests anymore?)


See, when you say "insta-delistings" after having it pointed out to you about three times that you're posting in the thread where the thing was announced a month in advance you look either very stupid or very ill intended. Did you know that? (This leaving aside the "valuable" bs.) And yes, I appreciate the completely irrelevant lateral argument of "tax records", you must imagine you're terribly slick or something. Well...not really. Pull the other one.


I guess the boss enjoys reading the results? Alternatively it might be possible that he's perverse enough to pour money into the education of the purposefully stupid as a sort of charity work. He's weird enough for dumb shit like that.

It tickles.


Nah, I was right.  I read my irc logs and Mircea is the asset issuer.  (of the passthru to Giga, obviously.)  So why lie?  And the personal attack?  Really?


In the financial world, any large deal done in less than 30 days is "insta".  This is especially the case with bankruptcies, spin-downs, whatever bin you want to throw this in where all investor value is destroyed.

So... the really ironic thing here, after all this shit-slinging you've done about me not reading your diatribes.  The really ironic thing?  Is that in IRC yesterday Mircea claimed that HE HAD NO IDEA GIGA WAS PLANNING TO CONTINUE OPERATING THE ASSET.  (gigamining)

Let that sink in for a few moments.

*) MPOE-PR has spent the last who knows how many posts in this thread explaining to me how I can't properly read/comprehend.
*) It turns out, MPOE-PR / MPEx has not even been reading the Gigamining thread!

They've essentially admitted to delisting an asset without even bothering to read or examine or question the plans of the operation behind the asset they delisted.

I'm not going to get into the trust issues this creates for the MPEx exchange, or the crazy easy comparison that could be made between this and the GLBSE delistings.  I think the actions taken speak loudly enough.

Are you for real? MP owns a large chunk of MPEx and operates it, but is not identical to it. So no, it was not MPEx that was the issuer. I'm not surprised that such differences elude you on the first (and second) pass knowing what we know of your general reading comprehension, but really now.


You really have no business speaking as of this "financial world" that you imagine. Preocupations more in line with your abilities are Reading 101 and such. This leaving aside the very convenient point that it was not done in less than 30 days, it was done in more than 30 days.


Duh. Who cares what Gigamining "plans"? All that matters is what it does.


No, actually, you've been going into nothing but spurious attempts at GLBSE comparisons that utterly failed on the facts, and brain damaged intimations of untrustworthiness which are so ridiculous as to be almost worth reading for the humor factor. So you know...it's ok. MPEx trades more in a month than your exchange ever will over its lifetime.

Speaking of which, what exactly the marginal literacy of its agitated owner means for whatever minor wannabe-exchange is entirely up to your two customers to determine. Hopefully one's your gf or something and all works out ok. You've already had your fifteen minutes, we've already had our laugh at the "hey, this yapdog probably imagines he's the competition and is scoring!eleven" point, you may lapse back into the darkness.

I guess you have missed the important point: If "MP" issues a pass trough of "GIGASOMETHING", from the exchange/market "GLBSE", on his bazaar "MPEX", the "MP" is the issuer of "F.GIGA.ETF" . As simple as that. Do you understand why?
"MP" has to work his ass off to get this mess cleared up because the buyers of "F.GIGA.ETF", from his silly bazaar MPEX, never made it to the share holders list of gigavps, hence they can not go to gigavps, and ask for the coin and dance that retarded dance scammer gigavps is demanding. Is this clear to you 2?
YOU, mircea popescu from polimedia.us, have to go and dance with James Gibbson (gigavps) like you have never danced before or you are just another scammer, who stole assload of coin from your clients.

Important point #2 - Lets start with a simple analogy so you 2 can understand it better. MPEX is just a bazaar, GLBSE is just a bazaar. Closing the bazaar will not make bananas worthless. If you can not comprehend this, you have a problem.

Now, the theory that our megalomaniac gipsy, bazaar owner mircea, sold the shares of "gigasomething" on the GLBSE and then sold his uncovered "pass through" (aka a empty bag) to his clients, fits like a fist in his eye.

Most important question now is: Mircea, is your name/email on the gigavps shareholders list?
If yes, can you prove it? Ask gigavps to announce it.
If this is OK, you guys can move on.

MP, if your and your pr-joke need coloured illustrations to understand it better, I can try to draw one for you.

Functionally Mircea = MPEx.  (and likely legally until Mircea registers MPEx in Romania or wherever you are, Mircea = MPEx.  It's not rocket science.)

What is the point is in trying to separate the two anyway?  Mircea is the man making the decisions either way.

The rest of the facts speak for themselves.

Cheers.

LOL. That's like trying to separate Mircea from his MPOE-PR sockpuppet.

Mircea, you really need a depersonalizer to make that plausible.

Mircea is MPEX in the same way nefario was glbse.