Bitcoin Forum

There is a topic here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1263526.0;topicseen - basically some DT has given red repo for selling accounts on this forum.

But forum rules never say one shouldn't sell accounts.

But some DT (default trust) members things it is not correct but they do not have any good reason to stop account selling but they are thinking or believing people can scam with brought accounts.

But majority of the forum members thinks, just by giving red trust to account sellers will not solve the issue permanently. Scamming is a different topic

Now what you think whether account selling should be allowed in this forum or not?

Just say Yes or No.

I put my vote as yes.
Because as I put it on that thread: There is nothing wrong with the practice in itself. Once the account leaves their hands, it is out of their control what the account holder does with it.
Account farming is bad and should not be allowed. Creating accounts for the sole purpose of selling them should not be allowed.

its fine ...

I personally think they should be allowed to sell in the forums however ... giving negative trust sometimes may help because it really depends on the intention of the buyer ... the main purpose is probably signature accounts but we see that people ask for positive trust when they buy and then .. you know it's more then likely not for sig campaigns but it's for scamming people so it really depends ..


EDIT : I just voted but why I can't see the results or anything on the poll ?

https://i.imgur.com/mwY6va8.png

i voted yes coz if selling of accounts will stop, it is likely that we are stopping some users to earn pretty decent amount thru signature campaigns and it could only lead to massive scams in this forum coz some users wont be stopped from selling accounts

well... I think it should be allowed.

When there is a hunt for account sellers and sold accounts... THIS happens (referring to my newbie account here).
I give out loans, and take altcoins and accounts as collateral.

Once every couple of loans, the borrower cannot repay me, so i'm stuck with his account... What else can i do but sell it?
I'd rather sell these accounts with my main alt, so people know i'm more or less trustworthy, but because people tag my sold accounts negatively, and will potentially tag my main account to, i'm forced to use this newbie alt in order to recuperate my money...

When creating the poll, OP selected: Only show the results after the poll has expired.

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I voted yes. Reason being accounts are hardly if ever used for scamming or spamming. Accounts are rather expensive and with the community being quite cautious, escrow can be used or message are requested to be signed from an old address. It is very hard for any scammer to scam with an account bought. The change in posting times, style and sudden activity are clear indications. Spamming wise, accounts are usually marked with a high price and if any user spams, they would be banned from the forum, it's a waste of money. Farming accounts is rather bad but the community here requests high quality accounts for signature campaigns and most seller's don't spam up the forum due to this. Banning selling of accounts is too hard and would just push it underground. I personally sold several accounts and they were mostly used for signature campaign and none were used to scam. That's speaking from my personal experience though.

Yes its good to sell/buy for me too.

I'm going with no considering that there has been some scams where sold accounts were used to scam, one example that comes to my mind is coinbooster. The sifter account was most likely a bought account.
And if anyone notices has a look at my recent posts they can tell that I usually do not interfere in selling of accounts but allowing account sales to happen is not the same as supporting/encouraging it.

I say yes.
Why not?
Everything is for sale in the world.

Yes, it is correct. Results will be shown only after the end of the poll otherwise people may change mind. So we will wait until poll finish to see the results.

If some one want to scam he/she will surely find a ways to do that but I don't think if any one sell accounts without green trusted accounts they can easily scam any one.

Question:    Are you supporting selling accounts on this forum? YES OR NO

I voted NO on the question that was asked.
it did not say maybe..

More often than not an account is bought for undesirable reasons i'm assuming.
I can think of many negative uses for bought accounts and little good ones.

But it's going to get ugly if Staff banned it.
Having to get people to supervise and police the issue would be hard.

I can just imagine mod's having to sift through a person post history to see if Jimmy talks like Jimmy LOL

So i'd say it's frowned on but can't be stopped realistically.
The poll asked if i "support" it ? ..nope.

I would vote for "No", but it actually cannot be banned, because we can't even judge if a account is sold or not, the ip's changing? No, maybe the account owner moved to another place or using vps; changed password?No, people always change password.

Voted yes. selling accounts supports signature campaign and if there is no signature campaign there will be much less traffic here in forum

Definitely a no from me. It is not against the rules but I would not support such actions. Most of these accounts are used for spamming and end up being banned anyways. However, it would be pretty much impossible to make this a forum rule.

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Update: Yes, that is what I wanted to say. Nice explanation.

rather, it'd be impossible to enforce. even if it were to be banned as a forum rule, sellers would take account trading offsite, and it would put both buyers and sellers at more risk to being scammed during a trade without the availability of escrow. this is though, assuming that forum escrow services wont be willing to escrow account trades should they be against the rules (which im fairly sure they wont if that were to be the case). having forum account sales occur offsite might also cause a lot of chaos with people trying to reclaim sold accounts with a signed message. i actually dont know how that scenario would play out; would the account be returned to the seller, effectively helping them scam, or would the account be banned outright for breaking the rule of no account trading? doesnt matter. the current state of not disallowing account trading is fine.

I've never done it but I suppose there's nothing wrong with people doing it.

If a Hero or Legendary Member is desperate for a bit of cash they can maie good, easy money selling their account.

I guess the only problem is what the new owner can do with the bought account if it has green trust.

We shouldn't make it easy just because scammers and people who intend to do bad things are going to find ways of doing it that's why I voted NO to make it harder for scammers. Afterall you don't need to buy an account here, you can create an account like you are supposed to do and start posting like you are supposed to do.

Do you have any proof only scammers are buying accounts and good people are not buying accounts?

If you don't have then just vote whichever you want but don't make any judgement. We want only proofs not your assumptions.

'Correct' is not the good term to use in this context. Selling accounts is technically legal - but I guess it is only because there is no way to determine if account was sold or not.
I wonder if there was a 100% way to know if account was sold then it would still be popular or legal.

This is very true. I would think it accounts for 65% of the traffic on here. With out them existing I think the practice of selling accounts would weither away because they would not be worth as much.

But it is just the amount of time spent in order to get to that level the account buyer wants is the problem.
Why wait for 5-6 months if they have the amount of btc to pay for one now? That is what I am thinking this buyers are wanting from all of this in the first place, that time spent is more valuable to them then the btc.

Voted, this is my another work for looking some bits here ;) very helpful for me, YES!

Because everyone has waited that time, it's not fair that someone can just buy a high level account when other people had to wait months for it. The buyers can easily wait 1-2 months and be able to do pretty much anything, afterall this is a forum and the ranks were supposed to be just an indicative.

yes if there is a proper signing of the address and the account does not come with trust, to not allow for scamming

they are usually used only for sig campaign at this point

But most of the new sig campaigns are not legit, just look at blackfridaydeals, they just became defunct on their last day of payouts. Those campaigns that promise high payouts usually can't pay out their members or just disappear without paying at the end of their run.

- Are you supporting selling accounts on this forum?
I don't mind and I prefer to see the accounts sold here by known members rather than being sold by newbies(1) or in other forums/sites(2) which (1) is happening actually in an increasing rates.

Thoses accounts will likely be used to join a signature compaign -> what is the problem? Once he started spamming he will get banned. (and i am supporting a severe punishment in this specific case)
Thoses accounts will be used to scam other members -> simply do not trust anyone here if he didn't use an escrow service (to keep a part of his money on it just in case) else use it at your own risk...

Why make it easier for sig farmers/spammers? Not all sig spammers get banned that easily and trust me I have seen plenty that are not banned and still active because not all of them are so obvious like the ones spamming in off-topic.

Who cares? I say do as you please as long as you are not scamming anyone.

I don't know what to think about account selling to be honest! I guess that I have nothing against it. But trust should be reset to neutral during each account sale. Selling of trust is a big NO NO in my opinion since the trust is really the only way to have any confidence in members around here!

I recently talked with a guy who had an account with positive trust and was planning to sell it, and he told me that he didn't tell anyone simply because he knew you could make a lot more money selling with positive trust. Humans are naturally greedy and it's a lost cause hoping that they'll turn away extra money.

I would say NO, since trust is a long term process to be achieved and just can't be bought.. Since I'm new to these forums, I'll have to build it by myself :)
But I understand the persons willing to sell.. years of work - must be valuable to them.

Can't even vote on this topic with my low ratings, lol.

There is little market for selling accounts with trust. Main reason being that almost all of the users are buying it for signature campaign. Secondly, it's easy to detect the change of ownership with address and posting styles. There is much more market for accounts with constructive post since many campaign now requires it.

Hmm, I voted yes cuz I used to sell accounts before that I got as a collateral from defaulted loans and I also got some for cheaper prices (I stopped it right cuz you know ::) ) I can't see anything bad or illegal about it, its discouraged though. Its actually good for me , as a seller cuz I earn profit and probably will also be good for buyers that actively participate and want to earn some BTC on sig campaigns with higher rank accounts.

I voted yes because For me Selling accounts in this forum help people who do not use forum anymore or just leave the world bitcoin from here people will take a profit from selling those account. But the people or seller must have attention to who he should sell it, to avoid things that something negative happens. If this happen the first owner will get the problem

sadly, since then, the feedbacks have been changed and the user in question is no longer red.  

regardless, the forum is not here to regulate your actions (this would prove very difficult and futile)

people can run scams and receive trust ratings yet still are able to post and continue their activities on the site.

although scamming is not supported, it can not be regulated or stopped.  same goes for account selling and farming.  that is the only reason (i think) why it is allowed to go on.

people on default trust list and others can leave feedback to any other members strictly based on their opinions and how they feel that day..

that is self regulation.

it is correct - NO
is there any direct way how to change it - NO
is there any indirect way how to change it - YES. just disable signature campaigns at it will fix situation faster, than you can even imagine

Scamming is the problem. Selling account is not. Make it clear that an account is bought and do not tag negative to the bought account. This will be a good business for the forum.

Still I am sure that many people get away with it and I don't think this is fair! Trust should never be sold, but that's human greed as we all know it. I guess no system is perfect!

That would indeed make forum accounts worth way less and probably no one would farm them anymore but in that case the only ones that would buy would be potential scammers because why else would you buy an account ? But I agree that disabling signatures is a good idea, it would also help with the spam, a lot.

not just spam but again and again posted bullshit just to have post. let's take gaming section as example. majority of signature campaigns are about promoting some casino/gambling site and because of this, they are usually encouraging involved whores to post in the section.

you can avoid scammers if you are smart enough, but you can't avoid spamming whores to get some dollars for posting non-sense. ignoring them doesn't work at all, because account farming is in progress and new accounts still popping up..

I voted yes as well. I don't believe there's any harm in selling an account as long as everything has gone smoothly between both parties. Most people use these account for signature campaigns anyway.

you know nothing Thomas. or you are just naive, or stupid. or both.

probably both

Bullshit detected, accounts with trust sell like hot bread, you may think there is no market because trusted accounts arent sold often

ok, im on the quoting screen, based on your post, im sure you're wearing a paid signature

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I have a plan guys, account selling shouold be documented, when an account is sold, it receives a neutral rating saying when it was sold and all  positive trust gets removed

I think my answer is yes.
There's nothing bad to sell your account if you don't use it.

Well of course, for the seller there is nothing wrong, he wins money and for the buyer, it's not bad either but what about other people who have been here for a long time and they didn't buy their accounts, they had to post and earn their rank, isn't it unfair that someone can just buy a high level account even with trust when other people have been here for years and some of them without any trust ratings at all.

I think it's a rather distasteful practice but it will always be with us. If sig campaigns are gone, buying rep will still count for something no matter what happens.

This is correct. There will always be a market for users who wish to be able to post more than once every 360 seconds.  ::)

If signature campaigns gone means more than 60% traffic to this forums also will reduce. Most people are active here because of signature campaign.

I'd say hot cakes but everyone has a different way of saying it. Anyway, even if they do, I see no reason why it's a huge threat. The forum members are much more clever right now. It isn't worth it to use it to scam. If they aren't sold often, they would be more expensive. Furthermore, most account didn't have much BTC risked which makes it difficult for scammers to make profit.
Great plan! How are you going to implement it? Not many people are as honest as you.

I think it's fine, as long as it's not morally wrong, like selling an account with an open loan, or selling a marked account. Doesn't that give the buyer some units of evil?

If it was really wrong, then Theymos would've banned traded accounts long ago.

Units of evil are only given when users gets banned or spam frequently. Scamming isn't moderated.

It's important to note that if a negative trust is given to the account and the user knowingly buy it, it will not be removed. There's a reason why many choose to use escrow when dealing with accounts. There is no concrete way to ban trading accounts completely as it isn't possible to tell even with IP change.

Where do you get those numbers from? Signatures are fairly new and people was here before signatures, the peak of people online was in 2013 no signatures back then so deleting signatures will not affect the traffic of the forum at all, only spammers would leave, if you are here just because of signature campaigns means you are probably a spammer.

I have always been against selling accounts on this forum. It not only leads to scam but farming accounts makes this forum looks dull with all spam posts due to signature campaigns. There have been many users who have been scammed because of this. However, I don't believe that the users who are selling their accounts deserve any negative trust or neutral trust but only I can request them to add a neutral trust to their accounts they are selling to make sure people are aware of the account sales.

I voted as 'yes' because, i didn't found anything wrong with selling/buying account.

If signature campaign is one of the problem, i want to say that this forum itself having an ads campaign. And this forum needs 10BTC for one month of hosting (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38071.msg467464#msg467464) (?) and/so this forum having an unigue ads campaign (not the ads publishing provides by some advertising company like adsense, yahoo ads, etc.,) becuase lot of members are active here because of signature campaign.

Advising or blaming others is very easy job because it won't ask money. If you're pointing signature campaign, who ever joined are spammer means. I would say you're the first most spammer. First remove your signature and advice others. Do not post some useless posts to earn money for you.

Your post was impossible to understand. The guy said the forum would lose traffic if signature campaigns are disabled and that's simply not true. This forum shouldn't be about signature campaigns in the first place, this forum is about bitcoin and people should be here because of bitcoin. You can join a signature campaign, nothing wrong with that but if you are here just because of the signature campaigns then something is wrong. Signature campaigns are the reason why btc accounts are worth anything.

Signature campaign is not a problem but the accounts are mainly sold for this purpose and in order to sell their accounts, users start spamming the forum and farm accounts. That's why I dislike account sales.

I really believe your explanation only if you remove you signature and still post on this forum for some time. Otherwise your just posting on this thread also to earn some money. Hope you will prove that what you said.

I don't have to do that. There are, what, like 1000 members participating in singature campaigns at most. This forum has way more people participating without wearing a signature and always have been. The gambling section is full of signatures but that's not where most traffic goes to. Bitcoin discussion and altcoins are the most popular boards and almost no one wears a signature in the altcoin section.

I dont think there is any harm in allowing account selling.The purpose of this forum is to promote Bitcoin usage and spreading information about it.Selling account is in no way affects the purposes of it.In fact it brings more people here

Apart from anything, why not abide by your own rules of "proof", instead of pulling fantasy stats out of your ass to support your argument?

But let's assume your >60% traffic stat is real, and that the majority of posters would not be here if there were no signature campaigns.
Well good fucking riddance then.

No signature campaigns=
>60% reduction in spam
less incentive to trade accounts
less incentive to farm accounts
less incentive to run alts

Trading accounts is a symptom, the cause is signature campaigns.

A common theme among the people who are voicing their opinion against the sale of forum accounts is that the sale of accounts leads to scams. I would however question that conclusion and ask how many scams (both as a percentage of account sales and as a percentage of forum scams) are from sold accounts and how many of those were made possible (or at least aided) by the fact that it was a sold account. I would believe for that number to actually be quite low and in the grand scheme of things, allowing the sale of accounts probably actually decreases overall scamming activity because it gives people who are desperate for money one additional way to get money that does not involve stealing from others.

there are so many good escrows on this forum that I see
no reason why anyone would get scammed. Some just want
good rep/feedback and dont even ask for a %.  If that is
everyones worry its a real simple solution. Use a trusted 3rd
party no matter how the account is.

Of course you are going to defend it but you were selling DT accounts too as far as I know, would you say those accounts can't be used to scam? How do you know? A lot of proven scammers just buy another account to keep scamming, is not like people who are desperate for money would buy accounts to scam.

Selling accounts is legal on this forum, but personally, i am against that. Not just to we help scammers that way and make them easy to steal money from honest members, we make possible to anyone buy high ranked account and have it without investing any time and effort.

I did not say that accounts can't be used to scam, I said that accounts (DT accounts included) generally are not used to scam.

Like I said, give examples of the kinds of scams that you claim are the result of sold accounts, otherwise you are just making things up

Why not?
In the world almost everything is for sale or to buy.
If you have enough money you can buy almost everything.

There are many things that you can buy with money but still there are some things that money can never buy you.

So why would anyone buy a DT member account if it's not to scam? And don't tell me it's to do business because everyone started with 0 trust accounts and they have been doing business just fine.

Prestige, to get a jump start with their business.  Also for all intensive purposes, this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=565024) account did not start as a zero trust account despite it being a brand new account and not being purchased.

If you are unable to give solid evidence to backup your statements, then why don't you just admit that you are just making up your argument?

Some of the accounts that were involved in scams were sold accounts (by checking their activity, password status and posting style). Recently I saw two sold accounts scamming users in the Currency exchange section and they were accounts not used since 2012/2013 with one having a positive trust while the other one dint have any trust and the rank was low. Since the accounts were old, the person sent first and then got scammed. The percentage may be low as some of the accounts which are sold can't even be detected while some can. However, I don't believe that account sales have reduced these scam activities when instead they have increased chances of getting scammed.

Of course, this is just an example. I remember there was some huge cloud mining ponzi too, with signature campaigns etc., can't think of the name offhand, but huge. Account dealers don't disclose which accounts are being sold, so compiling a full list is difficult.
You're welcome.

You could apply the same criticism to your statements QS.
You may be able to say that your opinion is based on your experience of selling accounts and that, as far as you are aware, few of them have been used to scam with so far, but that's all.
One recent example I can immediately think of was Rikkie and Cloudthink https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=168298 where a senior account was purchased to lend respectability to a scam. I would think there are others.

My personal opinion is that the old chestnut "If a senior member is broke and needs money, he can sell his account instead of turning scammer, so selling accounts is good" has no basis in fact whatsoever..

Well, I personally feel that it is okay to sell your account, but not moral. Activity is earned, not bought.

It really depends on what accounts are used for what purposes. Some are used to farm signature campaigns, others do it for the privacy, and some people just do it because they want to scam. Some people have no moral sense...

I agree with your opinion,
according to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0#post_faq (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0#post_faq) although it is not an official rules issued by bitcointalk, but can be used as a reference.

We have scam busters like vod, mex, shield etal, the chance that these accounts are used for scams is quite low.