Bitcoin Forum

I have been thinking about this for a while. There seems to be some hope on here that in the future, that when you buy something from a merchant, that the businessman/woman will give you a QR code which you then scan and pay via mobile payment. There seems to be an underlying problem here with this hope for the future, in that, if you use bitcoins like that for everyday micro transactions, along with a larger adoption rate, blocks will be maxed out and will take forever to be able to confirm. This is not a beneficial way for you or the merchant to handle business.

However, if you supply an asset based debit card with Bitcoin that has a reliable debit system in place like visa or master card, then there will be the benefit of spending your bitcoins, along with fast micro transactions.

I still have yet to get my own Bitcoin debit card for this purpose, but am interested in what people think if they have tried it, and what they think the future of spending your bitcoins may look like in everyday transactions.

Btc mobile payments, for sure, i really think that things are going in that way, i mean to concentrate lot of things on our mobile, like we have now but much more, maybe is not a good idea because if you loose your mobile you will loose lot of things, in last years mobile apps advanced a lot so why not will be the use of bitcoin through your mobile much more in next years than now?

Debit cards sounds like something used in the past compared with bitcoin+mobile ;)

I think mobile payments would be more adopted, because it's more instant (well at least, it has to be). And about the confirmation time, I believe we would find a solution for it.

Big company's like Apple and Google are investing big in mobile payments. The next few years they invest big to make it more smooth and easy.

And also mobile payments you have to accept with fingerprint or password I gues. so the theft situation is the same situation if your debitcard get stolen or get lost.

mobile payments it work also well to store a small amount, and you need anyway a mobile phone not so much the debit card anymore, especially not with bitcoin, which was designed to abort the old money system

http://bitcoinist.net/apple-pay-statistics-far-promising-bitcoin-global-alternative/

True, but I think apple pay along with apple in general is going to hit a rough patch here pretty soon with trying to act like Google, along with thinking about putting out an iPhone product that doesn't have a universal head phone jack and makes customers use only Apple headphones... Speculative, but I digress.

I think for an easier mass adoption, people have to be introduced with something that is familiar with them and "dumbed down" in a way. It would be very easy for potential customers to by coins and send them to an address on a debit card without necessarily a worry about private keys and that sort of thing. Plus, people just like tangible things. Taking a card out of their physical wallet to swipe is the human subconscious thing to do now.

Sure maybe in like 10-20 years it will all be QR code scanned, but I think the problem right now in the immediate future lies in confirmation times, and having a debit card that is backed by a currency/asset like Bitcoin seems extremely beneficial IMO.

Sure, I definitely know it's a revolutionary new currency that acts like digital gold. I completely understand that, and the fact that it's based on internet usage. But what if you are somewhere with bad cell phone service and need to get some gas? There just seems to be multiple possible downfalls with the mobile payment system that Bitcoin possesses right now which is why you don't see any merchants accepting Bitcoin. It's not fast like what it needs to be. I know debit/credit card companies are the face of the modern fiat system, but why not let them help us out in creating a faster payment system that uses our currency that acts like gold, but can be transferred digitally to wherever we want in the world for pennies? Seems like a win-win to me.

I would say it totally depends on the situation or what type of good your are purchasing.

Bitcoin payment is surely convenient but unlike debit card, all dont accept it. and even in future why would people take the pain of accepting bitcoins when they want is fiat only which can be done with debit card. people wont take the effort to accept bitcoin and convert it to fiat

Debit card hard to follow because many tight rules, mobile payment more easier. So mobile payment promising in long run i guess.

BTC mobile payments of course.
The main reason will be the costs!
Debit cards will always have higher fees and therefore payments via smartphone will overtake it in the long run.

Doesn't that put a third party in the middle, add reversibility, and defeat the purpose of bitcoin?

I'm not quite sure I follow... There are already asset backed debit cards that are backed by major credit/debit card companies. The real difference between the different kinds of cards you can get is whether they hold the asset until you purchase something with the card then change it over to fiat, or whether when you deposit say bitcoins in they are automatically converted to fiat and then you just have a normal debit card without a bank.

debit cards for now, but there's something awesome in development by mycelium https://vimeo.com/145882339

really like the approach

I guess so, but in my mind, I think the true purpose of Bitcoin is to be without a bank. Of course Visa, MasterCard, and others would act as a third party in a way, but they aren't a bank, just an easier and faster payment system. I'm not saying people should go stupid with it and keep all their eggs in one basket by using a debit card as a wallet in general; but rather to store some extra coin away there for the added benefit of being able to actually use your Bitcoin for everyday life, and everyday life transactions are usually always micro transactions.

to all the utopian dreamers thinking bitcoin will be the back bone of a one world currency either via direct blockchain tx or deposit to debit card:

1mb bitcoin can handle an maximum 2000tx a block(average tx 500byte) * 6 an hour * 24 hours * 30 days = 8640000tx/month

the average person makes an average of 43 fiat transactions a month:
weekly food shop * 4
gas utility
water utility
electric utility
phone and internet
car fuel * 4
daily snack, coffee or lunch, clothes or gadgets * 30
receive wage once a month
(yes im being very liberal with the numbers, dont knit pick)

so at 1mb block bitcoin can handle about 200,930(8.64m/43=200k) peoples daily activity (if people could buy anything to live on, directly with bitcoin(not debit card))
so at 1mb 200k people can happily transact. at 2mb 400k, at 8mb 1.6mill, at 32mb block 6.4million people can transact on the blockchain..
so lets take new york: 8 million people, 6 million of working/adult age..
in the utopian dream that every business in just new york accepted bitcoin... then bitcoin would be fine for its residents to use pure bitcoin with blockchain tx's.
but that is only 6million out of 7 billion (5billion adults) worldwide(not even 1%).

so 32mb blocks will only satisfy a new york single currency population, if all bitcoin users only done bitcoin transactions ONCHAIN

now... people doing a once a month bitcoin blockchain tx to a debit card provider will solve only 192mill (half of america!).

so anyone thinking bitcoins blockchain will ever be a one world currency managing 5billion adults daily uses.. i am sorry to burst your bubble
so anyone thinking bitcoins blockchain will ever be a one world currency managing 5billion adults monthly conversion to debit card.. i am sorry to burst your bubble

that said
atleast you know the number of users of pure onchain daily use: 6mill
atleast you know the number of users of monthly debit card deposits use: 192mill

Wow, see now that's awesome! Thanks for sharing! And yeah, it would be beneficial to not have a third party system that uses lets say visa. Hopefully more development will take place on this card. Any ETA on it's release date?

IMO bitcoin is never going to defeat cards but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I think this will cut close together both are avalable already

It's kinda hard to say, but if I had to go for either one of them I would have to say mobile payments

its a gimick, its not solving anything. these days everyone has a phone and a phone app can easily sign a tx 'offline' and push a signed tx to the internet..
its not solving bitcoin congestion of mass adoption.
plus also requiring multiple hubs eg 1 per town.. what financial benefit would anyone have to be a hub(full node)...

Well I guess I get what your saying. I just like the concept of the card in general though that uses a lot of security measures when someone tries to buy something with the card. But I see in multiple threads where people want a quicker side chain for faster micro transactions, why not just stick to the original Bitcoin protocol, use Bitcoin as assets, and allow visa to work as the Lightning network? I know they charge small fees, but there are bigger problems to face when the devs change the whole structure of bitcoins block chain in general.

Do you have a suggestion on how to fix this problem? I'm just more interested in how to attract local businesses to think about accepting Bitcoin, and the fact of the tx limit is not a very good selling point to any body.

"side chains" are just glamourised altcoins.. but as you 'hinted' visa could invent their own altcoin... seeing as many financial industry businesses are already looking into blockchain technology.. its a very big possibility that some of the "sidechains", i mean altcoins will be visa/mastercard operated..

i also think that bitcoin will be a fortknox type reserve asset currency like what gold use to be rather than a transaction ledger for average  joe. where each bank branch/business transacts offchain for customers. and then makes a batched payment compiling together all offchain payments into one single bitcoin transaction to represent movements from one service/country to another. (if bitcoin covers more than 3% world population usage)
swap offchain for bank notes and bitcoin for gold and you will understand my analogy to fortknox.

but at the end of the day. it will be these altcoins that banks hold for businesses, pay to staff and then tax to governments that people will end up using and bitcoin will fade into the background. only to be used/touched by the rich and powerful

also lightning network is just a buffer, its more about speedy transactions, and not about tx data reduction. once things are finally 'settled' / confirmed to the blockchain after channels are closed.

I bet on debit cards as most stores right now would see them as safer because of the Visa/MC logo on them. Debit cards may also allow off-chain transactions, meaning faster payments. Everything could change in the future, but for the next 5 years, debit cards are the best option.

I think mobile payment will be in long run. Its had low fees and instant payment.
With bitcoin debit card there will be alot of thing to do. Need to pay high fees and  to apply one need alot of personal detail.

whether its side chains, lightning, visa (fiat conversion) or visa's centralised altcoin... the future is going to be mobile devices..

even right now visa allows you to link your debit card to applepay so that you dont need to hold the plastic card in back pocket.
mobile apps will be the future. but which corporation/community app will be used most is still to be decided.

For now i guess debit cards are good step to we have better adoption and daily use of our coins, but mobile payments are way better solution and future belongs to them in my opinion.

I think both is better, now debit card was running, like bit x, coinocard and many other, i didnt hear mobile payments from btc, we need it

Since debit cards are already adopted, isn't the answer BTC mobile payments by default?

mobile payments should be like we install the bitcoin wallet in our phone and load bitcoin. The wallet holders just scan the payment QR code to directly send the bitcoin payment to the merchants' address. It is quick and easy.

we could say Bitcoin and debt card system are reliable and fast, but running on different concept of platform. Even bitcoin debt cards are arising recently, allowing your spending your bitcoin through debt card. The underlying platform processing the transactions at the time of purchase  is still the debt card system, the different is just to exchange bitcoin to fiat and load the fiat to the card for the spend.

he is talking about bitcoin debit cards not fiat debit cards, which cna have  point in soem place where paying directly with bitcoin via mobileis not feasible

I think that mobile payments will definitely be the payment of the future. We already do so much on our phones, so mobile payments will definitely be more adopted compared to debit cards. But debit cards are also convenient, I like mobile payments better though.

What do you mean "effort"? Accepting bitcoin payment is painless,  fast ,cross borders, no charge back risk. What you only need is to show our address to the senders. The payments processors will take care of all of the other things, cover the bitcoin to fiat, transfer to you bank.

As Bitcoin mobile payments look somewhat threatening to me being infected by malware and might getting our coins stolen, I would choose debit cards as an option here to be the best in long run.

Why not? Why do you think that it's a pain?
If we will think it that way, we are ourselves devaluating the possibilities of Bitcoins being used worldwide, so talking anything else is far away from what we are talking currently.

Stedsm:
ignoring an issue wont help either, however.. read on..

aizzaku:
imagine coinbase, they have a merchant tool that shops can use to show a qr code to customers.. bitcoins are accepted.. and.. then the solution for you.. is coinbase converts it to fiat automatically and 'tops-up' the merchants debit card which coinbase already offers. thus the merchant has the fiat they need :D

maybe btc mobile partner, debitcard was hackneyed lol

did you even watch the video?

there are no "hubs" or "full nodes" required. a business just adds the proxy tool to their internet router and you can connect this card to it and pay the bill.

If BTC is not going to fulfill the whole world transaction I do not see any problems in having a system that allows me to use my BTC thanks to a debit card: and this already exists.

2minutes 5 seconds:
"and tiny hubs and businesses"

by the way if the cards are to receive the tx data of the originating funds/get balance update. to be able to create a new signed tx.. they have to get the data from the "and tiny hubs and businesses" meaning these "and tiny hubs and businesses" will need to run a full node..

yes the gadget of the hub may be tiny... but that does not mean that full blockchain data wont be needed..

so next time watch a video more then once and then put the theory into practice to see what else would be needed and the reality of the situation.
dont take anything on face value, always investigate research theorize, poke and prod

the other part is that the video doesnt even talk about battery life or recharge times of a card. thus it proves the video is not telling the user everything.. apart from basic theory.

even the mobile network, blutooth, wifi all talk about long range from 100metres to 3 mile yet anyone actually using it will know that signal strength is not guaranteed (we have all had signal drops)... and dont get me even started about the requirement of having another bitcoin user in range aswell...

so with all that said about the limitations.. my point was less about the limitations and requirement of hubs/nodes/other card users.. but more so about that using these cards are no different then using a phone app.. whether its a phone that can sign a tx or a card or a trezor, or even a mathematical genius hand writing it.. the cards do not solve the blockchain bloat issue

I think btc mobile payments is already started to get adopted and even i uses it a lot. But there is lots of obstacle bitcoin has to cross to get more adaption on debit cards and bitcoin ATM.

mobile payments are the future in general. i do everything with my mobile, especially now stores are upgrading their hardware to allow contactless payments. the more physical stores accept bitcoin, the more adoption we will get for mobile bitcoin payments.

In a long run people will choose btc mobile payment, i think using btc mobile payment is far more convenient and efficient to buy things

and it is for all age user unlike debit card you need to provide a lot of document to open a bank account

and the best thing about using btc payment is anonymous, you can buy whatever things you like

and with btc you can make a better money planning

lets be realistic,for now debit card have more users than bitcoin mobile. but many expert predict that bitcoin will take over debit card,and bitcoin will have more users than debit card.
my own self is still wondering about this,because bitcoin for now is unstable.

It fully depends on what people find more convenient, and as long as people aren't getting paid in BTC, I think daily usage of BTC specially in in real-life scenarios will remain rather rare, because people is too lazy to convert their wage into BTC and then spend it. Of course I know there are some system where the conversion will happen automatically, but im not sure about people seeing a point on this. The main point of BTC is being your own bank, and this requires that you get paid in BTC for an ideal scenario. Then BTC beats all forms of money ever.

im gonna go with bitcoin, but only if bitcoin have
big advertisement and be known to any local and abroad
and if the price is stable bitcoin mobile payments will be adopted in the long run.

You can pay with bitcoin mobile payment, but I guess most of the people will not do it unless their coins have rose 10X in value. And even their coins have appreciated a lot, smart people might still like to spend the depreciating fiat money first, unless they don't have any income in the form of fiat money at all

Typically a bitcoiner will spend his coin and recharge same amount of coin immediately after consumption, which makes the whole process of spending bitcoin much more complicated. You better skip that spending altogether and using exchange to cash out the bitcoin in small batches when the price is more favorable

A possible place that you would prefer to spend bitcoin is when you are traveling abroad, in those occasions, spending bitcoin is not any different than spending any other foreign currency, it always involve a currency conversion. If you can directly spend your bitcoin then you don't need to pay the conversion fee, the conversion to local currency will be done by local merchants instead, and they might select to hold bitcoin as reserve

I'd like to think both will be used if/when we gain mainstream adoption. I can't say which will be more popular but both should be an option as older, less tech savvy people probably won't be comfortable making mobile payments so debit cards should still remain an option too.

definitely mobile payments.  I agree with above posters that it is the future.  Much easier than debit.

Yeah that's a very good point regarding people wanting to hold bitcoins for their increase in value. I guess what I was assuming is that if you were to find a an asset backed debit card company you could trust, you could essentially store bitcoins on your debit cards "account", and as the value of bitcoins go up, the more purchasing power with fiat you have on your debit card. But since you would hav to trust that whichever debit card company to not steal your bitcoins, and the fact that you wouldn't be in complete control of them, would turn a lot of people off from doing something like that. Guess I now just realized that.

Btc mobile payments will do the trick because no one forgets to bring his phone when he comes out

I think mobile payment, it is very easy and instant in making payment. But if it is lost? It should be considered.

I think in the near future the BTC mobile payments should be more adopted in long run, than the debit or credit cards, simply because it's simplest way to pay online without complicated transactions.
This need waiting for some time but i think Bitcoin will be the first payment processor soon

There will have to come a second wave of Bitcoin mobile wallets once the infrastructure for scaling is laid down (eg. Sidechains and/or Lightning Network) ... This second wave of wallets will be aware of other payment options and will choose the best one or let you choose (if the merchants offer many different options). New merchant software and maybe hardware will also have to be developed. QR codes might still be an option, but most phones will probably have something like NFC eventually.

I do think that mobile payments will be adopted faster rather than debit cards

It's the easiest thing you can do with bitcoins, to pay with your mobile.

It's fast and it's the first thing you can pay with in shops

Mobile payments are big news right now, they are being pushed heavily in the UK by apple, it makes sense as we are all looking for the easiest way to do things and paying via your mobile is the obvious choice.  Debit cards have been around for ages and are outdated compared to mobile payments.

 have not yet applied the debit card for bitcoin since i do not want to spend more on the coins i have. Personally, I do think that when that bitcoins will have hit the market with much pressure, we will see banks emerging and this is the time where the debit card for bitcoin will be required. That moment where you have a bank that has specialized in transacting the bitcoins. For now, it is easier to adopt the btc mobile payments.

well this is easy. Unfortunately debit cards. Its tied to the banks and bitcoin is a niche product.
Believe me visa / mc wont let it happen

Yeah true, this is why I went for mobile payments. There are a bunch of stuff connected to debit cards and banks, which could work with bitcoin but I would rather not see that happen. It would always work in the favor of the bank and not for bitcoin or it's users.

ofcourse debit cards, almost merchant around the world accept it, and mobile payments still rarely used
another benefit of using debit card, you can verify your paypal, and skrill too which is popular for payment proceccor

I think bitcoin will have its own areas where it will shine, like international transactions, on airports etc it will be a must. No need to conversion whatsoever.

Btc mobile payments will be adopted more in long run.I dont think debit cards will be even attractive because of time and fees they charge so this is only option which will be used for quick payment mobile payments.

I give vote for mobile payments, instant transactions, less fees and much much easy

Mobile payments. And I'll tell you a funny thing: I use to watch Korean dramas. Fact is than in every new drama they tend to promote some new mobile phone or feature. In the last one I have been watching, the main characters pay using their mobile phone when they buy a coffe, get on the bus, or when they go shopping.

I personally do not like that very much. It is hard already to think your smart phone is a target for thiefs and you have to have extra care for it... when you hold in it the way to do payments, that extra care has to be greater.

I think mobile payments will be more adopted. With debit/credit cards there are banks and corporate companies involved. I don't think a lot people are going to like that. The bank and those companies will always be looking out to make profits of off their clients.

Mobile payments probably. So many companies are actively trying to push it, with such reserouces, itll probably hit mainstream first

I think mobile payment and debit card both are complimentary and if people have choice,both method will be adopted with great enthusiasms.There are situations,places and occassions when mobile payment may not work like where network is not available.Similarly,debit cards too can not be used everywhere.So I think both methods will equally become popular

I think Bitcoin will likely be used less overall, although will be the preferred method and more prevalent when people are traveling abroad to avoid high oversea charges that are usually accumulated with debit card use. As mentioned, Airports and many travel locations are likely to see a larger Bitcoin use if they implement it.

That's a good point, but I mean there are already pretty good security features with Bitcoin mobile wallets that use F2A activation, biometric passwords, etc. I mean in all reality now in days, people especially in the younger generation value and keep track of their phones more than they would their own physical wallets it seems like... Maybe it's a good thing to keep your value on your phone in that case?

The fact that you don't have to keep anything physical with you except your phone is a pretty good argument for only using mobile wallets.

But with mobile payments, you need a bitcoin accepting merchant.
Whereas with bitcoin debit-card, once your card loaded with funds, you can spend you bitcoins to any merchant.
Mobile payments does not require any third party. Our bitcoins will be with us always.

I guess bitcoin debit card will be the first one to boom, then it will be followed by mobile payments once there are many bitcoin accepting merchants around the globe.

Yes, until more number of merchants for spending bitcoin, people will be forced to use bitcoin debit cards for their daily spending.
Mobile payments has many advantages over debit card, two of them would be cheaper and safe for your bitcoins.

Yes you have made a good point here but dont we need bitcoin accepting merchants in both cases?.How can we pay a merchant with bitcoin debit card if he doesn't accept Bitcoin payment? If bitcoin from debit card is converted into other currency at merchant's terminal than what is the point in paying with Bitcoin?

The point is, is that you could be able to load and store value of your bitcoins on a debit card to use anywhere by converting it to fiat upon a purchase. Although, I'm not quite sure if there is a debit card system that actually holds bitcoins until you make a purchase. I think when you load a card, it's automatically converted to fiat.