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It's getting more and more obvious that either BFL scams us directly, or they are scammed by their Asian fab. The result is the same: We lose our money.

Figuring out which version is the truth is sort of pointless: Going through all of BFLs excuses, half-truths, weasel-words and even blatant lies is very tiring.

All I can say is the way they behave, the way they present themselves (insulting and putting of (potential) customers on a daily basis), especially their public face Inaba/Josh, is not that of a company that actually wants to make money - but that of a company that already has made their share and keep it.

So I'd say enough is enough.

[EDIT: Please see also Fjordbits post]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=127158.0

Not a poll.

Something to learn from them Frizz, and all done by just one account, where you at least need about 6 to do that (insulting and lying on a daily basis)! Now, have you canceled that "order" yet? Fried asshamster anyone?

Plainly, the answer is yes. BFL has lied about shipping dates for months and they're still lying. They're still painting rosey pictures of their shipping plans and attempting to shift blame for the delays to an unaccountable fab. This has been done to lure in pre-orders away from other manufacturers that are actually much nearer to shipping products.

To be clear I still expect BFL to ship products, but the ROI for those recipients will be much longer than originally projected and there is an ever increasing risk that this company will run off with the funds or be forced into insolvency.

If they should get a scammer tag then so should every other company that has promised an asic by now and hasn't delivered.

I disagree at this point, but perhaps I will change my opinion in the future. While BTCFPGA has indeed missed a single shipping date, they(Tom) shouldered the blame himself and didn't pretend as though there was an easy fix or that shipping would be 2 weeks out. Additionally BTCFPGA did not begin accepting pre-order funds until much later. Though this could have been handled somewhat better, Tom has sweetened the pot for his customers, softening the blow.

At any rate, this thread is about BFL's indiscretions, if you'd like to start a poll with regard to BTCFPGA then I'd be interested in the results.

Why should we not hold everyone by the same standards?

1. They took funds for a product
2. They failed to deliver that product.

This is the criteria for scammer that you all have set forth.  It should be applied equally to all.

Then for f*cks sake create your own poll!

I am seriously sick of all this "OK BFL sucks but the others suck too" comments.

How about your car? "OK Ford has only 3 tires and no engine - but look! BMW has not even steering wheel!". Does your logic apply there as well?

Instead of lowering the bar we should aim to rise it - or at least keep it where it is.

I *JUST* told you why I personally disagree, please look up. Did you bother reading my post?

This is BFL's first ASIC. Any fab that does 65nm has done thousands of runs of ASICs. BFL's lack of experience is the true cause of the delays. Not the fab.

 ::)

(to the tune of the Lone Ranger theme)

Get a life, get a life, get a life-life-life,
Get a life, get a life, get a life-life-life,
Get a life, get a life, get a life-life-life,
Get a liiiiiiiiife, get a life-life-life!

Yes, but I fail to see the difference. Frankly, I knew nothing about BTCFPGA until you mentioned it, but what you stated in your post is they failed to deliver a product..

for which they took money...


But it seems to me that some of you only wish to assassinate 1 company and not hold everyone's feet to the fire.



  

So version 1 applies (BFL scams us). Because they claim that their fab can't keep deadlines, is hard to get hold on, etc. - while instead BFL is not able to manage the (65nm) process. And possibly never will be (within reasonable time (3 years) and reasonable budget (10 million USD)).

Fascinating. You ignored every single point I made save the ones you prefer. Your post may have had some merit if this poll existed the first, second, or third time BFL had announced a delay, but it did not exist to my knowledge. Thus your suggestion is that others should be held to a HIGHER standard than BFL.

not at all.  I read your excuses, but that is all they were. 

I'm honestly not defending BFL. I have questioned them when I smelled bullshit, but I hold everyone to the same standard.  I"m just so sick and tired of seeing these post full of conjecture and overlooking facts just to fit the OP's assumptions..

This a public forum and I am on topic so for "f*cks sake" grow up. 

Facts? The facts then:

BFL took money for a product that did not exist months before anyone else did. True or false?

BFL has announced more delays than everyone else combined. True or false?

BFL has missed their "scheduled shipping" timeline by a wider margin than anyone else. True or false?

BFL has offered nothing concrete to compensate customers for these delays. True or false?

No you are not. This poll is about BFL. If you wish create one for bASIC. And for Avalon.

So you do agree with my statement:

Please see the preceding post..

This poll is about BFL. If you wish create one for bASIC. And for Avalon.

why should it not be any ASIC company?  I'm just curious about motives for the poll.

The question should be: "why should it not be any amateur ASIC company? "

Again: Create your own poll for bASIC or Avalon if it pleases you.

I started a BFL poll because they are blatant liars. ChipGeek/ab8989 wrote nice comments. BitSyncom concluded by saying: "I didn't want to entering a fight of words originally, but I am going to say it now. they lied and I'm disappointed."
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=129566.msg1392696#msg1392696

Scammer tag implies premeditated intent to scam. I don't not think bfl matches this description. All that's happened is that they've been hit by a number of unfortunate events beyond their control.

I therefore vote no.

Will

Disclosure: I have FPGA minirig and stand to gain by delays in ASIC shipping dates.

I don't buy that. Sure they blame everyone but themselves, but that doesn't make it so. They were months from being prepared to ship in October when they sold pre-orders based on that fairy tale shipping schedule. At every stage they've had a chance to level with their customers, but have instead chosen to deceive. Even recently BFL_Josh was on these very forums suggesting that they could still receive chips in the next couple weeks and ship products before the end of the year, but that's complete nonsense when measured against other comments from the same man.

This just shows me this poll is a farce and an attempt to sway public opinion in order to discredit that company.

Think we'd be discussing this poll if BFL hadn't lied about "scheduled shipping" dates?

Would the scammer tag be removed once BFL ships?

I personally do think a scammer tag is warranted. It has been applied to others who promised something and couldn't deliver at the time, regardless of circumstance. For example, Nefario felt that his legal circumstance warranted his actions regarding GLBSE, and I kind of agree with him, but I also agree that him holding onto the coins and not distributing shareholder accounts warranted a scammer tag. Other examples are the PPTs that are paying back slowly.

The problem I have with BFL is not that they promised in June a delivery in October. At that point in time, I didn't really believe it and even made posts saying to expect delivery in March.

The problem I have is that a few months later when other ASIC vendors announced their products, BFL reiterated that their October date was solid. In my opinion, this caused people to not invest in ASCIMINER, and not preorder bASIC and Avalon, and instead go with BFL. In other words, BFL was pushing forward this statement to their financial gain. It's one thing when you are the only vendor in town, but when you are making statements as a means to block competition and get more money, then a scammer tag is warranted.

BFL really should have known that they would not make the October date by September. But we got statements about bullet runs and whatnot. The fact that BFL was making design adjustments as in possibly October, but seemingly as late as November shows that the initial slippage is not because of their fab, but because of BFL's design team. The fab can be blamed for this recent change in dates (to a certain point, BFL is ultimately responsible for their fab), but the other dates are all BFL.

For what it's worth, I think bASIC should also have a scammer tag. I don't get how they had a working prototype and suddenly have no design.

I've opt to quote the post, inferring a +1. This post makes sense.

Full Disclosure: I have not voted in the poll prior, nor now, even though this post leans me toward a certain direction.

~Bruno K~

+1 Fjordbit

If the poll were presented as Fjordbit describes then I'd have no choice but to agree.  As it currently stands I must stick with no.  

lol wow we actually agree for once.

But then again I still think you are putting sugar on the situation. time will tell what really is going on.

+1 Fjordbit

Scammer: 50
No Scammer: 24

Pirate will refund me soon I believe him!

Give them a bit more time before scammer tag. Although i would be starting to get a  bit worried if i had bought one of these.

Give them 'til Dec 25 for a new excuse, Christmas truce and all that :3

They likely won't release any info until January 9.

Reminder that up until now everything has happened exactly as predicted by myself on December 3rd

I still think the misunderstood people's of Rth'Nag'Ar are only in this to help us turn the tables on the lizard humanoids from hollow Earth.

Naw, why rush it? Let January come and go, then February, then March...why drop the hammer too soon? Let them squirm moar. There's a reason only unresponsive scammers get tags here, and that reason is we need the drama; we're backing Bitcoin with it.

Here you see how scammers behave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlWrmIqGs3Y#t=02m22s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlWrmIqGs3Y#t=02m22s)

Here's one where an author has put-off his pre-order customers for three years by telling them that he's waiting for the commodity price of paper and ink to stabilize so that he can finally send the manuscript to the the printers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yDezLh76Bk

Luckily, sand is not a commodity.

when did bfl first start pre-orders?

I told that Pirateat40 way of doing business reminds pyramid and confidence scam. Not everyone listened.

I told that BFL is scam months ago. Most of users here told I was wrong.

I also sell that all other ASIC "manufacturers" are in fact BFL shills. This is so well planned out and it goes so well that Pirate will look small compared to BFL.

June 2012.

See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg966882#msg966882

Does BFL truly have $25 MILLION in pre orders?

is this really the SC

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/single.jpg

missed the memo where they released images. also looked like the CES backdrop with bitpay had images of the new SC line too

It really is the 3D rendering of SC. It does not prove they have them, in fact it proves the opposite.

Look, I have 3D rendering of Aurora bomber! Anyone want to preorder them?

http://preview.turbosquid.com/Preview/2011/06/14__10_10_45/Aurora_3.jpgba8fa683-95f3-4f8c-ac4b-c1fd0b59941fLarge.jpg

Please use PGP and encrypt your messages if you're going to sell military hardware.

Also, I assume you ship freight?

The problem is that single Aurora bomber in basic configuration costs 35 million Bitcoins.

You probably might be interested in scaled-down version called Penilino. It is single-seat version capable of carrying single Hellfire missile or 500Kg of cocaine.

Ah, I see, then I'll just hoard and wait for the value of BTC to randomly explode.

bump

Hah, this thread got bumped more than a BFL wafer.

What the hell is BFL? I keep seeing it mentioned around the forums

Butterfly Labs = vaporware vendor.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/

Insert Quote
Does BFL truly have $25 MILLION in pre orders?

What a choice! Does it come with leather seats and air-con?

Micon pulled that number from.... somewhere no one knows. And Internet being what it is it keeps getting repeated. I'd seriously doubt they reached 10% of that number. Note that my guesstimate is pulled from .... somewhere no one should want to know..

At one time I, too, espoused the 10M to 20M figures floating around, but scaled back to the 3M mark. But, I'm now leaning a little bit higher considering Tom at bASIC claimed to refunded 1M to date with more to go. I believe that BFL should be about 10X bigger than Tom's mom-and-pop-and-son shop.