Bitcoin Forum

When I was born, my grandparents made me a small fund, it was stocks in a Norwegian Bank. The same thing they did to all my other sisters and brothers. The idea was that when I was old enough, I could use this money for education, or any other suitable purpose. As history would have it, the stocks decreased in value, and my grandparents never sold out. Eventually it was all lost, as the stocks were written down to zero.

I was thinking, and I mentioned this to my better half at one point, but she seemed indifferent (she's indifferent to everything that has to do with bitcoin) that perhaps we should start a 'fund', ie. just invest in bitcoins and not touch it until we have children that's old enough to have any possible advantage of it, i.e. perhaps 20 years into the future at this point.

Obviously we would not invest more than we could stand to lose.

I figure it can't fare any worse than the bank stock investments of my grandparents...

I'm seriously thinking this may be an interesting idea. What do you all think of it, and how would you make sure that the wallet survived all these years ? Would this be something you would do for your children or grandchildren ? Possibly, bitcoin may fail, and it might become worthless, on the other hand, if bitcoin becomes a mad success and lives on in a couple more decades, who knows what kind of prices we'd be looking at.

i think its a great idea but we/they have to stop bringing up the asinine idea about raiding/pillaging old unused addresses.   no one knows if those would represent what you're recommending vs. real lost private keys.

Having old coins be released is an utterly stupid idea. If I or anyone else wants to sit on some coins for the remainer of our lifetime, we should be free to do so. If they were forcefully removed after 1,5,10 or even 20 years, who on earth would be around thinking that 'oh - we need to move the coins before they expire!'. And we would have lot's of cases were people go to retrieve their btc, and it's expired. Very silly idea to implement anything like that.

Expiration won't happen and is off topic.  Bitcoins for your children is a great idea.  I recommend a paper wallet or casascius physical bitcoins.  That way your coins are safe from hackers and hard drive failures.

A paper wallet was an excellent idea. Print on paper lasts very long, not that sure about digital media like usb-drives and CD-ROMs, harddrives etc.

Cdroms or an old tape recorder is all I would trust with long term storage and I'd still recommend a paper backup.

I wouldn't trust CD-ROMS for more that a few years:

http://www.archives.gov/records-mgmt/initiatives/temp-opmedia-faq.html

Maybe it lasts, but its prone to physical damage like fire, water or can be stolen. I recommend brainwallet. :)

Here's an interesting article about it:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-the-life-expectan

It says that ultraviolet light could damage a CD-ROM.

Some also think burned CD-ROM's will only retain their data for 2-5 years, while other thinks 50-200 years is more accurate:
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-10149_102-152618/1-27-06-how-long-do-burned-cd-rs-and-cd-rws-last/

Another issue is that CD-ROM players may be hard to find 20 years into the future, it may as well be obsolete tech.

Implying that the brain isn't prone to physical damage?  ;D

Brainwallet all the way! I have half of a whole private key memorized, and I should have the entire thing memorized by January, just because I'm too good for a phrase.  :D

i've decided the best way is to put copies on all of the media; diversification.

so is the "expiration" idea really dead?  theymos was resurrecting it just yesterday.

i already use paper wallets. just dont use inkjet as they fade after a few years. use laser printers and then seal the design using a fixative, which is a kind of varnish.

my design is like a bitcoin bearer bond. you could also get the private key etched into a piece of jewellery or a piece of metal. to ensure lastability beyond the risks of paper. store it safe!! go lo-tech (not on a computer or digital format.)

just dont rely on digital data storage. or online services that decode brain wallets. as they may not be available to download in 20 years and the offline storage of the decoder you kept in such an event may have become corrupted.


and remember to put details of the inheritance/childs trust fund in your Will if you want to keep it as a surprise. or they may never find out about it.

I'm pretty sure its dead. I can't imagine getting everyone to agree on how to do it. It could be a feature of another altcoin someday though.

well thank gaud then.

proudhon gave me a great idea which i adapted;  print the paper wallet using Armory, cut it into a smaller piece, folded it once, wrap it in a piece of construction paper so it can't be seen and then laminate both sides.  i'm sure it protects somewhat from oxidative damage to the print and it can be stuffed in a safe deposit box if desired.

I estimate chances for any "expiration algorithm" to become part of the bitcoin protocol are very low. However, cracking of old and seemingly unused wallets that have not been updated with better encryption algorithms will become a reality once computational power becomes cheap and plentiful enough. 20 years from now, Y not? (thats at least what I read)

SO investing in Bitcoin holds alot of potential, but is still pretty risky and putting your childrens education on the line in this gamble seems not worth it. YOu may wanna consider opting for other investments, like bonds, fonds with a broad and low risk portfolio or real estate.

In no case should you leave those coins unattended!

Best of luck,
Spekulatius

I would grab a piece of stainless steel/silver/gold and engrave the keys on that. It'll be still there 500 years later! (even more if gold is used)

1.  your descendants will probably not be frequenting this forum like you to get the notice of a protocol change.
2.  they probably won't have your technical skills to do the tx.
3.  gold is being brought up from the depths of the ocean at the fastest pace ever yet its not tanking the gold price.
4.  most if not all of the big addresses are not lost coins. 
5.  the whole concept is just a "theory" that by my estimation is totally unfounded.

this is interesting.  a while ago i tried handwriting the Armory root key and chain codes onto a piece of paper b/c i was paranoid about using my printer.  and his seeds only consists of letters, no numbers, and no caps.  turns out, my printing was so bad i couldn't reliably tell the difference btwn a "d" and an "a" or an "h" and an "n" and sometimes an "i" or an "l" or a "w" and a "u".  i was shocked at hard that simple task was.  bottom line; it you handwrite out the key, test it at least 3x to make sure you can access the pub key.

writing out regular private keys would be worse b/c of the inclusion of #'s and caps.  the diff btwn 1's and l's is an example.

furthermore, when you hit enter after interpreting and typing the 144 printed letters into Armory and it says "error" it doesn't tell you which of the 144 letters was wrong.  so you have to keep guessing which one.  could take you a lifetime... ;D

I would like to revisit this issue.

I have allocated a certain sum that if lost completely is a loss that will not stop me from sleeping at night.

Thus, the idea is to convert this sum into bitcoins. I understand that I can generate a private key (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Private_key) and corresponding bitcoin address on an air gapped computer. Then I thought it would be a great idea to  ingrave the private key to a metal plate, a ring or something similar, perhaps along with some short instructions. Ie. "BTC redeemable, privkey: 5Kb8kLf9zgWQnogidDA76MzPL6TsZZY36hWXMssSzNydYXYB9KF". I've also seen that a minikey (eg. SzavMBLoXU6kDrqtUVmffv) can be used. But I feel that the longer Wallet import format works better, as I for some reason picture it would be safer.

By the end of the day, if this project fail, then so be it - and I made a shot and lost. No regrets.

Is there any 'guarantee' (in the sense we can talk about it), that as long as bitcoin exist the Wallet import format will always be supported? Perhaps some new format will come in the future, but will there still be some backwards compability?

If we look at a time fram of say 20 years, this can make for a very interesting story when the coins are finally redeemed. Is it possible, what would the value increase (or decrease) be, and on what device and which software program would it be redeemed. Also, I feel that inprinting it on a metal piece would make for better durability.  It could be ingraved on something similar to this:

http://img.costumecraze.com/images/vendors/franco/30109-Deluxe-Metal-Dog-Tag-Necklace-large.jpg

I am sure no other family members have the slightest clue about what I am on about, but I'm willing to try, and I think it is a great idea. What do you think, and is there something you'd like to add apart from what's already said ?

I would store the wallet with instructions on how to use it on a variety of media.  Paper, CDR, and DVDR.  Anything using flash memory is guaranteed to lose data within about 10 years.  The smaller the cells and higher density of data, the faster the data loss.

Hexadecimal format on acid free paper printed with a laser printer.  Store in multiple locations.  Same with CDR/DVDR.  Buy several different brands and types of discs (organic dye medium).  Beware of OEMs making many different brands.  You may buy 5 brands thinking they're different when really they're identical.  A couple of discs may fail but the chances of all failing, across all types in all locations is very slim.  My first CDRs burned on Kodak gold discs are still readable more than 15 years later.

Finding a place to store the wallet securely and making sure that the recipients find it will be your greater problems.

The greatest problems: people losing interest in bitcoin because something better comes along.  In the 20 year period money is transfered to the new system.  The left over bitcoins are worthless as there's no one left to trade them with.  A change in hashing protocol rendering your bitcoins worthless is also a big risk.  Hashing algorithms come and go as vulnerabilities are found.  MD5 was once considered very good for example.

Play with the idea and maybe set aside some bitcoins as a fun experiment, but I wouldn't invest serious amounts of money.

What would a reasonable time frame for a project like this be in your opinon ? Still 5 years would be interesting..

Bitcoin has been around for 4 years, less than that in a usable software form.  It would be interesting to load up a wallet with bitcoins and store it for maybe, 5 years, before retrieval.  It's long enough to be a really long time in terms of bitcoin, but also short enough that you'll avoid media degredation worries or simply forgetting about the whole thing.

In addition to my previous post, if you were serious about storing bitcoins for children or grand children it would be well worth storing a couple of DVD drives with the discs.  In a decade or two you may have difficulty finding a working drive even if your media is all fine.  A USB DVD drive isn't a bad idea as USB has been around for a very long time.  I had a USB enabled PC in 1997, so it's fairly likely USB will be known and maybe even used in some form in a decade or two from now.  Heck, it's still possible to buy new motherboards with serial and parallel ports, technology that dates back to the 1970s.

Surprised people discuss paper option at length but ignore your casascius suggestion. There's a thousand ways your paper key will get lost forever (or stolen if you put it in too many locations); physical coin on the other hand can only be lost to thief or extreme fire, not humidity, age, sunlight, insects, bad ink, bad paper, etc. I just use some 25 btc coins for this purpose stored in various places for the future use.

Does any experiment show that private key printed on Casascius coin is durable for decades or centuries? How about extreme conditions, e.g. high/low temperature, high/low humidity, soaking in water/organic solvent, fire?

No, my own testing shows that it's much better than plain paper, but still destroyable by fire or acid. I'd say, on par with quality laminated paper that's printed with good ink and never exposed to sun, attached to a silver plate so can't be bent or scratched. It should be able to stay put for 100 years easily.

Since I believe that there is a small chance of bitcoin becoming very very valuable, and a large chance of it becoming worthless, I would buy a small amount of coins, and put the rest of your savings for your children/grandchildren into other things (gold, real estate (if you are rich), stocks ..).
That way, if bitcoin makes it, it will provide your offspring with a good amount of wealth, but in the likely scenario that something goes wrong, the loss will be minimal, and they will still have the other things.

You could always laminate the paper, which would make it considerably more durable.  That would essentially protect it from general degradation and water.  It would obviously still be vulnerable to certain things (ie. theft, fire) but so would a coin.

You could look at it as buying a lottery ticket.

A shot at owning 1/21000000th of the wealth of the world for the cost of dinner and a movie.

Personally, I'm a long-term type of guy.

In a bitcoin only world, you would have 1/21000000th of the money. The real wealth could be much higher. It is not necessary that the number of coins multiplied by its value represents the real wealth. Anyway, give your toddler a 1 BTC coin and tell him to buy a car when he grows up.

Guess I didn't read the thread well enough since you posted the same suggestion.  I never thought about covering it with construction paper or some other medium.  The only thing I would worry about with that is you can't really inspect the paper so if it is degrading over time you would never know it until you opened it up. 

which is why i used colored construction paper to see if it fades.

Personally, I'd just go with a high yield CD (preferably through a federally insured credit union); it's one of the safest investments you can make.

Most of the time a CD won't keep up with inflation rates.  This is a guaranteed way to lose purchasing power over time as inflation reduces your wealth faster than the CD yield can replace it.

Are you serious?  If so that is very, very sad.

7-year fixed-rate CD from USAA is currently returning 1.46% APR. Or you can get an adjustable rate CD with .48% APR.

U.S. Inflation rate in 2012 was 2.1%.

You will get a better return investing in hookers and blow.

Yes, I am dead serious.  I think its sad that you all are telling this guy to blow his children's and grandchildren's money on BTC, particularly since he is adverse to risk (as shown by an unwillingness to invest in stocks.)  

BTC is easily as risky (if not more) than a flavor-of-the-month penny stock, and is certainly not a sound investment. Speculative tool, maybe...but definitely not a "safe" investment.

Inflation rate was 1.7% in jan. You can find CD's that yield up to 2% last I checked, and a few years ago you could get them at 5%.  But yes, "safe " investments will yield less than a risky investment.  That's the price you pay for relative safety.

So you tell him to invest in something that is CERTAIN to lose value - no chance of even retaining its value?

read the rest of my post.

So I take it you actually believe the 1.7% inflation number.

And you would have also to believe that it will stay that way for the length of your safe CD.

Interesting beliefs you have there.

Right, because telling a risk-adverse investor to invest his children's money into bitcoin (which has the relative safety of a roulette table) is sound investment advice.

Why don't you just tell him to cash in his savings, go to Vegas, and put it all on black?

 



 

high yield CD's issued by small banks or credit unions have been used in the past as a surrogate measure of risk that that institution may fail.  higher the yields, the higher the risk.

I agree.

As I said earlier, the higher potential yield of an investment, the higher the risk generally is. The individual investor need to decide how much risk they are willing to take on and weigh it versus the potential payoff.

I'm not saying that bitcoin or stocks (or any other investment vehicle for that matter) have no place in a portfolio, I am simply stating that investors that can't handle risk should look elsewhere.

I really don't see how that is an unreasonable position.

I never told him to invest in Bitcoin.  I just stated that investing in "safe" CDs is a certain loss.  If what you mean by safe is that you are certain of the outcome (a loss) then yes, CDs are safe.

Get indignant if you like, but most financial advisers would agree with me.

Yes, I am sure they do.  Therefore, you are right.  CDs are safe.  Bitcoin is risky.  Everyone is happy.

Makes sense. 

I would support if it can be done in a decentralized way like the private keys would be stored offline and not touched I also wonder if they would take into account future/past forks since It's inevitable to expect more BTC forks.

Saving bitcoin now for the future of our family is ideal but there is a great risk in holding. If the saved money will be used maybe after 20 years or more, the savings will surely encounter so many forks and challenges. We know how unstable cryptos are and we are not sure if what is the status 20 years after. There are many predictions that bitcoin will be the future money, still it is not guaranteed. It may be ideal to save bitcoin now but as long as it is unstable and the wallets are still open for attacks, people will still be doubtful of holding the coin that long.

Yes the forks often make people to rethink about their investment but I will say that they do not need to worry about this as if they will remain with bitcoin for long term then nothing bad will happen and the price of bitcoin will increase just like in the current stage you can see the price of bitcoin is increasing even a few forks are happening in the way but still everything is going very well.