Bitcoin savings fund for children or grandchildren?

[cypherdoc]

writing out regular private keys would be worse b/c of the inclusion of #'s and caps.  the diff btwn 1's and l's is an example.

[cypherdoc]

furthermore, when you hit enter after interpreting and typing the 144 printed letters into Armory and it says "error" it doesn't tell you which of the 144 letters was wrong.  so you have to keep guessing which one.  could take you a lifetime...

[Herodes]

I would like to revisit this issue.

I have allocated a certain sum that if lost completely is a loss that will not stop me from sleeping at night.

Thus, the idea is to convert this sum into bitcoins. I understand that I can generate a private key and corresponding bitcoin address on an air gapped computer. Then I thought it would be a great idea to  ingrave the private key to a metal plate, a ring or something similar, perhaps along with some short instructions. Ie. "BTC redeemable, privkey: 5Kb8kLf9zgWQnogidDA76MzPL6TsZZY36hWXMssSzNydYXYB9KF". I've also seen that a minikey (eg. SzavMBLoXU6kDrqtUVmffv) can be used. But I feel that the longer Wallet import format works better, as I for some reason picture it would be safer.

By the end of the day, if this project fail, then so be it - and I made a shot and lost. No regrets.

Is there any 'guarantee' (in the sense we can talk about it), that as long as bitcoin exist the Wallet import format will always be supported? Perhaps some new format will come in the future, but will there still be some backwards compability?

If we look at a time fram of say 20 years, this can make for a very interesting story when the coins are finally redeemed. Is it possible, what would the value increase (or decrease) be, and on what device and which software program would it be redeemed. Also, I feel that inprinting it on a metal piece would make for better durability.  It could be ingraved on something similar to this:



I am sure no other family members have the slightest clue about what I am on about, but I'm willing to try, and I think it is a great idea. What do you think, and is there something you'd like to add apart from what's already said ?

[Cluster2k]

I would store the wallet with instructions on how to use it on a variety of media.  Paper, CDR, and DVDR.  Anything using flash memory is guaranteed to lose data within about 10 years.  The smaller the cells and higher density of data, the faster the data loss.

Hexadecimal format on acid free paper printed with a laser printer.  Store in multiple locations.  Same with CDR/DVDR.  Buy several different brands and types of discs (organic dye medium).  Beware of OEMs making many different brands.  You may buy 5 brands thinking they're different when really they're identical.  A couple of discs may fail but the chances of all failing, across all types in all locations is very slim.  My first CDRs burned on Kodak gold discs are still readable more than 15 years later.

Finding a place to store the wallet securely and making sure that the recipients find it will be your greater problems.

The greatest problems: people losing interest in bitcoin because something better comes along.  In the 20 year period money is transfered to the new system.  The left over bitcoins are worthless as there's no one left to trade them with.  A change in hashing protocol rendering your bitcoins worthless is also a big risk.  Hashing algorithms come and go as vulnerabilities are found.  MD5 was once considered very good for example.

Play with the idea and maybe set aside some bitcoins as a fun experiment, but I wouldn't invest serious amounts of money.

[Herodes]

The greatest problems: people losing interest in bitcoin because something better comes along.  In the 20 year period money is transfered to the new system.  The left over bitcoins are worthless as there's no one left to trade them with.  A change in hashing protocol rendering your bitcoins worthless is also a big risk.  Hashing algorithms come and go as vulnerabilities are found.  MD5 was once considered very good for example.

What would a reasonable time frame for a project like this be in your opinon ? Still 5 years would be interesting..

[Cluster2k]

Bitcoin has been around for 4 years, less than that in a usable software form.  It would be interesting to load up a wallet with bitcoins and store it for maybe, 5 years, before retrieval.  It's long enough to be a really long time in terms of bitcoin, but also short enough that you'll avoid media degredation worries or simply forgetting about the whole thing.

In addition to my previous post, if you were serious about storing bitcoins for children or grand children it would be well worth storing a couple of DVD drives with the discs.  In a decade or two you may have difficulty finding a working drive even if your media is all fine.  A USB DVD drive isn't a bad idea as USB has been around for a very long time.  I had a USB enabled PC in 1997, so it's fairly likely USB will be known and maybe even used in some form in a decade or two from now.  Heck, it's still possible to buy new motherboards with serial and parallel ports, technology that dates back to the 1970s.

[piramida]

Expiration won't happen and is off topic.  Bitcoins for your children is a great idea.  I recommend a paper wallet or casascius physical bitcoins.  That way your coins are safe from hackers and hard drive failures.

Surprised people discuss paper option at length but ignore your casascius suggestion. There's a thousand ways your paper key will get lost forever (or stolen if you put it in too many locations); physical coin on the other hand can only be lost to thief or extreme fire, not humidity, age, sunlight, insects, bad ink, bad paper, etc. I just use some 25 btc coins for this purpose stored in various places for the future use.

[jl2012]

Expiration won't happen and is off topic.  Bitcoins for your children is a great idea.  I recommend a paper wallet or casascius physical bitcoins.  That way your coins are safe from hackers and hard drive failures.

Surprised people discuss paper option at length but ignore your casascius suggestion. There's a thousand ways your paper key will get lost forever (or stolen if you put it in too many locations); physical coin on the other hand can only be lost to thief or extreme fire, not humidity, age, sunlight, insects, bad ink, bad paper, etc. I just use some 25 btc coins for this purpose stored in various places for the future use.

Does any experiment show that private key printed on Casascius coin is durable for decades or centuries? How about extreme conditions, e.g. high/low temperature, high/low humidity, soaking in water/organic solvent, fire?

[piramida]

Does any experiment show that private key printed on Casascius coin is durable for decades or centuries? How about extreme conditions, e.g. high/low temperature, high/low humidity, soaking in water/organic solvent, fire?

No, my own testing shows that it's much better than plain paper, but still destroyable by fire or acid. I'd say, on par with quality laminated paper that's printed with good ink and never exposed to sun, attached to a silver plate so can't be bent or scratched. It should be able to stay put for 100 years easily.

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Since I believe that there is a small chance of bitcoin becoming very very valuable, and a large chance of it becoming worthless, I would buy a small amount of coins, and put the rest of your savings for your children/grandchildren into other things (gold, real estate (if you are rich), stocks ..).
That way, if bitcoin makes it, it will provide your offspring with a good amount of wealth, but in the likely scenario that something goes wrong, the loss will be minimal, and they will still have the other things.

[CurbsideProphet]

You could always laminate the paper, which would make it considerably more durable.  That would essentially protect it from general degradation and water.  It would obviously still be vulnerable to certain things (ie. theft, fire) but so would a coin.

[Le Happy Merchant]

You could look at it as buying a lottery ticket.

A shot at owning 1/21000000th of the wealth of the world for the cost of dinner and a movie.

Personally, I'm a long-term type of guy.

[xxjs]

You could look at it as buying a lottery ticket.

A shot at owning 1/21000000th of the wealth of the world for the cost of dinner and a movie.

Personally, I'm a long-term type of guy.

In a bitcoin only world, you would have 1/21000000th of the money. The real wealth could be much higher. It is not necessary that the number of coins multiplied by its value represents the real wealth. Anyway, give your toddler a 1 BTC coin and tell him to buy a car when he grows up.

[CurbsideProphet]

i already use paper wallets. just dont use inkjet as they fade after a few years. use laser printers and then seal the design using a fixative, which is a kind of varnish.

my design is like a bitcoin bearer bond. you could also get the private key etched into a piece of jewellery or a piece of metal. to ensure lastability beyond the risks of paper. store it safe!! go lo-tech (not on a computer or digital format.)

just dont rely on digital data storage. or online services that decode brain wallets. as they may not be available to download in 20 years and the offline storage of the decoder you kept in such an event may have become corrupted.


and remember to put details of the inheritance/childs trust fund in your Will if you want to keep it as a surprise. or they may never find out about it.

proudhon gave me a great idea which i adapted;  print the paper wallet using Armory, cut it into a smaller piece, folded it once, wrap it in a piece of construction paper so it can't be seen and then laminate both sides.  i'm sure it protects somewhat from oxidative damage to the print and it can be stuffed in a safe deposit box if desired.

Guess I didn't read the thread well enough since you posted the same suggestion.  I never thought about covering it with construction paper or some other medium.  The only thing I would worry about with that is you can't really inspect the paper so if it is degrading over time you would never know it until you opened it up. 

[cypherdoc]

i already use paper wallets. just dont use inkjet as they fade after a few years. use laser printers and then seal the design using a fixative, which is a kind of varnish.

my design is like a bitcoin bearer bond. you could also get the private key etched into a piece of jewellery or a piece of metal. to ensure lastability beyond the risks of paper. store it safe!! go lo-tech (not on a computer or digital format.)

just dont rely on digital data storage. or online services that decode brain wallets. as they may not be available to download in 20 years and the offline storage of the decoder you kept in such an event may have become corrupted.


and remember to put details of the inheritance/childs trust fund in your Will if you want to keep it as a surprise. or they may never find out about it.

proudhon gave me a great idea which i adapted;  print the paper wallet using Armory, cut it into a smaller piece, folded it once, wrap it in a piece of construction paper so it can't be seen and then laminate both sides.  i'm sure it protects somewhat from oxidative damage to the print and it can be stuffed in a safe deposit box if desired.

Guess I didn't read the thread well enough since you posted the same suggestion.  I never thought about covering it with construction paper or some other medium.  The only thing I would worry about with that is you can't really inspect the paper so if it is degrading over time you would never know it until you opened it up. 

which is why i used colored construction paper to see if it fades.

[evolve]

Personally, I'd just go with a high yield CD (preferably through a federally insured credit union); it's one of the safest investments you can make.

[DannyHamilton]

Personally, I'd just go with a high yield CD (preferably through a federally insured credit union); it's one of the safest investments you can make.

Most of the time a CD won't keep up with inflation rates.  This is a guaranteed way to lose purchasing power over time as inflation reduces your wealth faster than the CD yield can replace it.

[BurtW]

Personally, I'd just go with a high yield CD (preferably through a federally insured credit union); it's one of the safest investments you can make.

Are you serious?  If so that is very, very sad.

[wormbog]

Personally, I'd just go with a high yield CD (preferably through a federally insured credit union); it's one of the safest investments you can make.

7-year fixed-rate CD from USAA is currently returning 1.46% APR. Or you can get an adjustable rate CD with .48% APR.

U.S. Inflation rate in 2012 was 2.1%.

You will get a better return investing in hookers and blow.

[evolve]

Yes, I am dead serious.  I think its sad that you all are telling this guy to blow his children's and grandchildren's money on BTC, particularly since he is adverse to risk (as shown by an unwillingness to invest in stocks.)  

BTC is easily as risky (if not more) than a flavor-of-the-month penny stock, and is certainly not a sound investment. Speculative tool, maybe...but definitely not a "safe" investment.

Inflation rate was 1.7% in jan. You can find CD's that yield up to 2% last I checked, and a few years ago you could get them at 5%.  But yes, "safe " investments will yield less than a risky investment.  That's the price you pay for relative safety.