Bitcoin Forum

Today I became fully aware of the massive amount of charge-back fraud perpetrated against Bitcoin sellers who accept any type of reversible payment method (esp. Paypal). We are newcomers to the Bitcoin world, and we learned our lesson the hard way about this. A fraudulent buyer spent around $27 on Bitcoin and is trying to reverse the Paypal payment on us. This is a small amount of money, but now after talking to others about this and other merchants who have been the victim of charge-back fraud we are very scared and have completely halted all Bitcoin transactions through Paypal. The problem is so bad that you simply don't know who is going to hit you; scammers hijack legitimate accounts, purchase Bitcoin and slip away. On eBay they also create new accounts, buy lots of cheap "trinkets" (e.g., cellphone cases, keychains, etc) from high-volume sellers, get high feedback scores then attack.

To my knowledge, Paypal does nothing about it -- they might close the scammer's account but there are many more to replace it and the honest merchants can be forced to bear the cost. Totally uncool, Paypal... Some say it is against the Paypal ToS to make Bitcoin transactions, but I'm not sure this is necessarily true. After reading their merchant ToS again today I didn't see anything restricting transactions involving digital goods/media, intangibles or Bitcoin. However, there is an "unofficial" policy of giving the finger to Bitcoin merchants because Paypal sees Bitcoin as a threat to their monopoly over online payments. It depends on who you talk to and what division of Paypal they're in. They tend to let you get along fine selling Bitcoin, but when something goes wrong they abandon you. The bad part is that eBay and Paypal's system misleads sellers into thinking they're dealing with a legitimate buyer when they're really dealing with a crook.

The higher profits to be had from selling Bitcoin over eBay or through Paypal is NOT worth the risk -- in fact, it raises the risks for the seller!

A lot of people, especially those who've been in the Bitcoin community a while, say this is no news to them; they've been aware of this. But my warning here is to make the less-experienced and aspiring Bitcoin merchants aware of the danger. My advice is simply don't try. There's a reason why Mt Gox and many big Bitcoin companies won't accept Paypal or credit cards: everyone who has tried it got screwed. Though it's embarrassing, we unwittingly added ourselves to the list of people screwed by charge-back fraud. Fortunately we quit while we're only $30 down and there's not a huge amount of money at risk...  :-[

Since this happened to us we've begun investigating the scammer and looking into every other transaction we've made through Paypal. I've reached out to other sellers engaging in Bitcoin trade through eBay and Paypal and I'm shocked at how bad this problem is. One girl I talked to today got screwed out of a lot of money and is having to sell all of her nice gold and silver jewelry to try to make up for it. She's a single mother with a very young daughter.

Now I am furious... I'm furious, of course, at the scammers who've done this to people... But I'm also very angry with Paypal and eBay for allowing scammers to attack their merchants and get away scott-free: the people they make their money from and rely on to survive. I'm also furious that they have a "screw you" attitude toward Bitcoin merchants. This isn't the fault of Bitcoin: anyone selling valuable items that are easy to get cash for can be a target (whether you're selling gold, Rolex watches or Gucci sunglasses).

Some of you may remember this post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131883.0) I made recently about community collaboration to fight fraud and unethical business practices. Now that I've been hit with my first small loss to a Bitcoin scammer and talked to real, ordinary people who have been screwed very badly by the scammers (and Paypal's handling of the situation) I am ready for action... ready to follow through with my own proposals to help fight fraud, as some of you suggested I do, personally. I've already launched a private investigation into this matter, working together with victims and merchants, and much of what I've found is startling. These scammers are making mistakes -- they're arrogant, probably young and dumb and think they can screw people and never be held accountable because Bitcoin is "anonymous"... WRONG! Bernie Maddoff was caught, and these clowns can be caught too.

We want to do everything we can to prevent more people losing money to scammers and trying to help people get their money back, whether that means catching the perpetrators to hold them accountable and/or pressuring eBay and Paypal to do the right thing and step up to protect their merchants. So we will be part investigator and part advocate. I am assembling a new "anti-fraud team" and I'd like to launch a new organization with a website, forums and advocacy group.

If anyone would like to help us make the Bitcoin world safer please say the word! You can join forces with us, do some nosing around on your own time, give suggestions/advice, help us fight for victims of fraud or donate. If you want to donate a little to help pay for a website and getting an anti-fraud/watchdog team going please send to this address:

Anti-fraud team donations:
1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs

We're serious and we're going to follow through and do everything we can. And you can scoff at me if you want but I'm going to do what I know is right and I will make a positive difference. I may be considered a n00b in Bitcoin-land, but I have a significant level of technical expertise, learn quickly and know what I need to do (already made some progress). I've also been scammed online in the past in non-Bitcoin transactions and managed to lead the authorities to the thieves, and have some other related experience. But most importantly, I will bring together other people who have a lot more skill and knowledge than I do and try to get some of the most brilliant minds in the Bitcoin world helping to fight fraud and protect honest people. A currency needs confidence or it's destined to fail, and we want Bitcoin to succeed and leave a positive impact on the world. But that can't happen until we start making Bitcoin unsafe for scammers, con artists and thieves. This isn't just about charge-back fraud or my negligible < $30 loss, it's about a great currency called Bitcoin and the good, honest people who use it.

We'll also be looking into things like the fraudulent "CPC Electronics" trying to sell fake mining equipment and any other type of fraud targeting the Bitcoin community. It's up to us to work together and protect each other and our entire "free market" currency system.

I'll post updates on our progress in this thread. As soon as we're able to launch a new website and forums and get the team organized I will provide links.

Thanks for your time,

--ATC--

P.S. -- Definitely going to get our company behind this and allocate some resources to the effort! And I hope other people will help the cause. If no one steps up to help I will be sad and disappointed but won't give up. Doing the right thing often means doing something very hard, and I'm prepared to accept the challenge... hope you are too, even if you can only do a little. Really hope we can bolster enough support to get an open, non-profit anti-fraud organization going sooner rather than later.

This is the only way I see to sell BTC on eBay without getting defrauded: http://www.ebay.com/itm/230902604519

I'm with you on this, tip sent.

I got a chargeback through the bank and I ended up finding out the hackers ip address - so you're right they're not being very clever.

I haven't heard anything from the bank yet after asking them to inform me if they catch the person responsible. I don't think they care much at all about catching hackers, even when given their ip address!

I would like to be part of an anti-fraud lobby group that tries to bring scammers to justice. Will contact my bank again tomorrow to get an update.

good luck with the anti-fraud concept. just be sure that others wont just set up 2 account , cargeback to themselves and then show you evidence of a chargeback to then get some free bitcoins.

the best bet is not to set up a donations pot aiming at giving funds to people that lost out, as that will get abused. but to develop relationships with paypal, and get one long term employee of theirs to understand the blockchain and use the blockchain info as 'proof of delivery'. then all sellers can contact that informed paypal contact to review the transaction information to avoid chargebacks.

I found out it wasn't a tor exit node - hence the comment that the hacker could be slipping up, although valid point that it might be a VPN, proxy or botnet slave. However, it being not a tor exit node greatly increases the chance of this hacker getting caught.

You're spot on. I understand from my experience that a lot of the chargebacks are genuine people who had their account hacked. The problem is a lot of people are unaware their computers are compromised. Maybe the anti-fraud group should campaign for better understanding of computer security, safe AV and Internet practices?

It's something that affects bank users and bitcoin users alike. I was thinking of something like for every chargeback that happens, we could lobby banks to ensure that they fix their customers computer rather than just change their password. I know that's a big ask, but maybe we could facilitate the fix through bitcoin payments and remote access? Thinking out aloud here but we have the tech know how and their customers have $.

EDIT:
I just realised the bank are probably not at all interested in helping their customers in this way - they might think they've solved the problem with One Time Password. I think a good strategy is to educate people who enter bitcoin and show them that our community supports them in ways their bank would rather not deal with.

Victim relief has two huge problems.

It will be scammed unless you run it very conservatively. Which will mean asking victims tons of info and then still mistakenly rejecting some actual victims.

Then if it does somehow become an effective and meaningful remedy it will lower the incentive to avoid being scammed and (potential) victims behaviors are nearly the only thing that determines how much scamming happens.

PayPal and bitcoin doesn't mix. Don't try it. It's a losing match.

You're asking for donations before you've created anything ?

Hm...

There is an excellent thread buried somewhere by mndrix(?) about how he accomplished amazingly low fraud before PP shut him down (and froze his money for 6 months).

That about sums it up PayPal wise.

Sellers need to stop accepting paypal...eBay has never protected their sellers while extracting all their fees from this same group. Vote with your wallet people.

We should launch a boycott paypal campaign!

then paypal need to update its policy to say. "update your security. hacked accounts wont be insured." or atleast have paypal request a police report from a computer forensics lab along with a crime report. that will stop the scammers.

although an anti-fraud squad is a great idea. getting companies to prevent fraud should be the number one concern, not accepting donations for victims. the OP can legally define himself as the recipient of all donations, because he is a victim of scams in the past.

i dont mind donating time and brainpower to the cause. but i am not going to donate coins.

good luck to the OP in your progress to get change to occur with websites policies.

Why would PayPal do that.  Fraud doesn't cost them anything. The merchant pays.  Making PayPal easy has made it the number one processor on the internet.  PayPal gets all the benefits, merchants pay all the costs.

Now think about this logically if you are PayPal (and making tens of millions a dollars a year in profit for your shareholders) why the hell would you change anything?

Not true.  You can accept PayPal just understand the limits.  Don't accept PayPal from a buyer you don't know or trust.

I totally agree. But any charity can be defrauded (*cough* social security *cough*).  :D


It costs money to buy a domain name, host a server, et cetera... and if I pay for everything out of my pocket and do it all myself there's no reason for anyone to get involved. This just goes to show how BAD scamming is in this community: you don't trust people who want to fight the scammers because you think they're the scammers (and everybody else is too)... I take that as a big confirmation that we need some change...  :'(

Gotcha. No eBay then, no atomicavenue, or any other service that's paypal only.

IOW don't use paypal, already there.

its more to do with the fact that in MANY countries have it so that charities cannot accept a donation until they are registered. businesses cannot trade until they are registered. and insurance companies cannot trade unless they are registered.

your business plan loosely fits into all three categories. yet you request funds upfront before showing proof of work.

i have invested in ESTABLISHED businesses and in businesses which show some actual assets like a website atleast and qualifications that their goals can be achieved.

knowing that one man cannot change paypals terms and conditions or stop domain sellers from selling domains to scammers to create phishing sites. the chances of funding upfront is low. people are more likely to donate as a thank you for a victorious change to a companies policies.

if you are unwilling to put your own money into the project, then why expect others to? a domain costs less then 2 hours of minimum wage labour.

this is much like the many charities which ask for donations to change the world and only 1% of donations actually achieve anything. check out the bitcoins for goats thread as an example..

I think you made a grave error by posting the above. What Herodes may have implied as to what you should do at the very least, you kicked to the curb, using the excuse of not wanting to outlay a little bit of money for the necessities, then thereafter went into the discussing-of-scammers mode, trying to cement the idea that your endeavor is not a scam. For the most part, seasoned bitcoiners see right through this.

Regarding the cost factor, we're only talking about the price of a domain name and monthly hosting. About $100 USD a year, whereupon you'll only have to shell out less than $10 for the domain name and host on HostGator for only a penny for the first month. Put in a little time to splash together a website, and then you would have had a few coins trickling in to pay for the next month's hosting fee.

You have a great command of the English language, and it seems like you were in the process of getting a following, but you may have hit a snag with this noble cause. Case in point, you only had about a dozen feedbacks on your eBay account, with the last one being a negative tick, yet you were able to generate sales of Bitcoin items regardless as to why you receive it--you had pneumonia.

Furthermore, it seems like there's a myriad of ATC Enterprises, Inc., entities throughout the nation, with you only recently filing papers to operate in Louisiana. ATC Enterprises, Inc. http://www.facebook.com/ATCEnterprisesInc/info

http://www.facebook.com/ATCEnterprisesInc

Exactly! (I think we crossed posted)

bitcoin is made possible by  cryptography

cryptography was created to preserve secrecy and anonymity.

when we have a full bitcoin econony , WITH NO NEED TO CONVERT FIAT TO BITCOIN, this will be a beautiful thing.

At the present time secrecy and anonymity provide fertile grounds for  hackers and scammer activities.

And the point at which bitcoin and fiat meet are a real problem for us all.

DO NOT TRADE BITCOIN FOR ANY PAYMENT FROM THAT CAN BE REVERSED.

MONEYPAK
CREDIT CARDS
BANK TRANSFER
PAYPAL
SERVE
ETC

UNLESS YOU KNOW AND TRUST YOUR TRADING PARTNER.

While you can purse scammers after fact you'll have more luck and less trouble if you vet your trading partners or use some sort of trust system (bitcointalk.org, bitcoin-otc) IN ADVANCE.

Even banks and Paypal do not pursue scammers after the fact.  THEY ARE NOT PAYING FOR THE LOSS - YOU ARE.   They set aside hundreds of millions of dollars of fees paid by merchants that allow them to write off these lossess.  The only thing banks and paypal, etc are concerned with is preventing future fraud as they do have to pay for the present fraud.  That is passed on to the consumer.

EVERYONE is a scammer... Grandma sent me $100 through Paypal, now she just hit me with a charge-back! E tu, grandma!?  ::)

This type of paranoia and COMPLETE distrust of everyone will be the death of Bitcoin, which is an outcome I'm not willing to accept. I'm a lot smarter than you might think, my friend. If I was going to run a scam or misappropriate money I would have started out with complete anonymity as a goal. I wouldn't have put a real picture of myself on my profile here or left any footprints. I also wouldn't be going after puny little donations. I'd move to a country with no extradition treaty with the US and try to attack worthwhile targets like, hmmm, the NYSE or CME. But since I was raised in a Christian home I would prefer not to face the wrath of God for hurting people. What goes around DOES come around... and even the most ingenious criminals end up paying for what they've done to people. There's no reason to think you'll succeed where men like Pablo Escobar and Bernie Maddoff failed...

So scratch my name off the scammer list. I haven't made any attempt to be anonymous because I want people to find out who I am and what I'm doing. That's generally how one makes a company grow. I am not afraid of law enforcement because I've never stolen from anyone... I'm also not afraid of criminals; I have big guns, a big building and a lot of people at my side.  ;)

I make mistakes like any other mortal, like thinking I could do Bitcoin business over eBay... but I own up to my mistakes and do what I have to do to fix it. In this case I stopped doing all business through their system before increasing our risk of loss and I'm trying to help other people who have lost a lot more than the $30 I may or may not lose.

Instead of trying to start a mudslinging/slander war, how about you help me? If you know about setting up websites I could really use your help. Make suggestions on how to transparently account for donations and show people what we're doing with them. Someone already sent approx $10, which is enough to reserve a domain name I believe. I have money to contribute right away. But I made my point that I am NOT bearing 100% of costs and labor. Ultimately I don't want this to be my full-time job, and want the Bitcoin community to take over. And yes, I am indeed a very persuasive writer and I'll use that skill to pressure Paypal and other companies to help us and bolster support for this new team.

So help me... Let's get a site up NOW. And let's figure out how we can openly and transparently account for donations. Right now I'm holding the money and you can watch the block-chain to see how much I get. All of it will be there to go toward this effort, plus some from my own pocket:

http://blockchain.info/address/1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs

By the way, I thank whoever sent that first 0.80 BTC donation from the bottom of my heart!  :D

Regards,

--ATC--

P.S. -- I can write server-side code if we make this an ASP.NET website, but I am a horrible web designer... a trained monkey could probably be better with HTML and CSS than me lol. Do we have a good designer or two in the house who wants to help?

Also, I think you guys are right about it being a bad idea to try to take charitable donations for victim relief right now. I'll pull that down, and we'll take another look at the idea when we get more organized. I posted last night in the wees hours of the morning -- totally exhausted from hunting scammers. So perhaps I didn't think that through well enough... I just wanted to be able to help some of these people I feel very sorry for. But will pull it down now and get back to the idea later.

3 failures
1) too much waffle chatter trying to convince that your not after peoples money(guilty always talk to much defending themselves)
2) the only help you require is for someone to make a website to appear transparent
3) you still have not provided evidence that you know anything of financial systems, business/corporation responsibility or any legal knowledge that you could quote to paypal to scare /persuade them into changing their policies.

an anti-fraud business would have a team of people that know how corporations act, they know business/financial laws to know when a company is in breach of their terms/conditions. and they have the PR skills to word things in a way that cant be ignored.

your posts dont read as a business plan requesting legal assistance or people with corporate knowledge to help change the world. it just reads as a guy in his 20's that has never had a business of his own to know about the facts and figures. you just seem to want to grab bitcoins the easy way.

your trying to get us to trust you. what an antifraud company would do is to show proof of work so that there is no trust needed. stop trying to grab donations from a forum, set up a website, start getting paypal to change their policies post their replies on your website and use your website to request donations.

if you cant afford $20 for a website and maybe 20 minutes a day to write a email to the paypal HQ. then you should not be trying to ask for donations for a business plan which only have those 2 requirements.

and you don't have to worry about HTML. i know 10yos that use microsoft word to drop and drag images and tables into position, add hyperlinks and then click file, save it to HTML file type. its as easy as making a newsletter/brochure.

if the community wants an anti-fraud service they want to see people with legal and corporate knowledge or asking to recruit people with that knowledge.. not someone looking to set up a website with a damn donations totaliser.

show us an email that you sent to CPC electronics asking them to take down the website. show us any contact you have made with paypal. then we may consider you as MAYBE, just maybe being worthy of starting an anti-fraud business

Actually, you're quite mistaken, sir... with all due respect.  :)

If you don't trust me that really doesn't matter. You shouldn't be shocked that someone will defend themselves when attacked. You punch me in the face and I punch back...

I haven't made any attempt to "showcase" my knowledge of finance, law and regulation. That doesn't exactly accomplish anything... this is the internet age, and anyone can go read a Wikipedia article and sound like they know what they're talking about.

Yes, I am young and ATC Enterprises is my first corporate venture. But I have over 5 years of planning, learning, research and testing put into it. In any case, it's no concern of yours. We're a small type-S, limited to 100 or less shareholders and we cannot take any new non-accredited investors -- we already have the maximum allowed number to still qualify for SEC exemptions and keep our legal requirements streamlined. The company is being financed and built with the incoming accredited investment capital from accredited investors (millionaires and institutions). So I am not soliciting you to invest (I can't, anyway) and couldn't accept your money and give you shares if you brought me $50k on a silver platter. Leave me be... this is my parade.

The anti-fraud "agency" or "organization" I'm trying to win support for has nothing to do with my company. I have no interest in profiting from it. I don't want to own it. I have other goals and ambitions in my life and a growing work-load. I think it should probably be a non-profit. All I'm trying to do is get the ball rolling.

So again... if you think you have the skill and knowledge to help run something like this then climb aboard and help. Don't trust me? Then don't donate. Stop trying to attack me personally and make useful suggestions and contribute your ideas. You've given me a few, but it's so mixed up with personal vendetta that it harms the quality of your suggestions. Again, I'm very inexperienced in web design and such so I definitely want some help to see this up and running sooner rather than later.

Actions speak louder than words...  ;)

an anti fraud agency is a great idea, dont get me wrong. it is.

but there is more waffle in your last post without substance, have you even contacted paypal? or cpc electronics?

you spout about your atc business yet anyone can google a business and say its theirs. for a guy trying to start an anti-fraud organisation you should atleast know the fundamental things that us experienced guys look out for when weighing up trust.

from the way you have worded your proposals it seems that you have simply read the scam accusations sub forum thread, seen what has most recently happened and then used that info to try acting as a white knight. gaining peoples trust.

you have failed some fundamental points when doing a sales pitch i see more defence over reasons to donate. but no requests for legal advice, corporate advice, evidence that you have changed company policies or anything in progress at this moment, in the past or the future.

please before replying. back away from the computer, have a cup of coffee. sit down and write out a template for a email you would send to paypal or cpc electronics. and post it here aswell as sending it to them. if you want to get the ball rolling then this is your chance.

lets see your skills and strategy at work, you will win trust by showing results. not by spouting waffle. trust has to be earned not taken for granted. especially on the internet where you cant walk up to a person and slap them across the face with a wet fish.

enjoy your coffee and we look forward to seeing the template.

and please please please do not and i sincerely mean this,  do not reply with anything that sounds like this

Wow... just... wow...

Dude, I'm going to visit my grandmother and my extended family tonight whom I haven't seen all year and we're exchanging some Christmas gifts. I really don't have time for making a rebuttal of outrageous conspiracy theories about white knights and such... but I'll be back in late tonight.

I have already contacted Paypal and eBay both. But I'm not even close to having done enough. It's a lot of work, and work takes time. This doesn't just materialize out of thin air, by magic. You seem totally unwilling to hold off on your wild conspiracy theories and let me work and accomplish something... instead, you're drawing my focus away from the thing that matters...

But as I've already told you numerous times I am working on it and I WILL post the results of my correspondence with them. What I have sent them so far is evidence I have gathered on behalf of those who (including myself) have been targeted by the scammers. It contains sensitive account information, and I am not at liberty to post that (could get me in hot water and undo all my efforts). So you're going to have to settle down and exhibit some degree of patience and understanding.

The simple solution to this is just don't donate if you don't like the idea. I've said that already. I have only once proposed donations, and that was in the OP. You're confusing that with my rebuttal of personal attacks and ludicrous accusations. No one has a gun to your head telling you to donate.

With hold your judgements until you actually see something, whether it be negative or positive, and don't accuse someone of something that hasn't actually happened.   :)

So relax, and I'll see you later...

--ATC--

EDIT ::

WTF? I've asked for NON-monetary support in the form of help with the website, forums, advice/counsel, ideas, et cetera numerous times, whereas I proposed donations once. So again, why don't you contribute something along the lines of help and stop attacking me?

From your website (Facebook) http://www.facebook.com/ATCEnterprisesInc/info ...


... yet you defend not using $10 USD of your own money to even register a domain name. And, all the activity shown to date with your newly founded enterprise centers around Bitcoin.

Pretend for a second your name is Bob Smith. With all the evidence presented to date, would you seriously deal with this Aaron Carter?

~Bruno K~

Only at gunpoint.  :D






http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/31031_448863861818204_805115611_n.jpg

Oh... Well....  :-\

Oh, I wasn't aware that collecting guns was bad?  ::)

Whatever... I'm leaving now to go visit my family and I'll be back later.

But if you're going to start stalking me on Facebook and trying to slander me in every way possible now (and who knows what else) then don't accuse me of being the one trying to harm people, because you're trying to harm me now... totally uncalled for... If this is the way the community treats people then I fear Bitcoin isn't ever going to live up to its potential...

guys just hold off.. let this thread die, and if this dude truly has some tangeable skills in fraud detection, and skills to persuade corporations lets wait for it to happen.

he like many of us all wants a better world. but from a business investment point of view, its not worth it. id advice everyone to support him with advice and tips, but not money.

this guy sets up a ATC facebook page less then a month ago. no business listings, no website.. its too obvious to even continue pointing out to the guy with his failings. i surely hope he does not reply with more waffling defences without substance.

let this thread die and let the guy spend a few weeks planning a new way to ask for donations.
hopefully he only replies again on this thread with some tangeable information. which is not simply a complaint that he got personally scammed and wants money to go on a quest to cure all the scamming ills of the world.

and heres some tips for him to work on.
email teaching paypal of the un-corruptible "proof of delivery" that is known as the blockchain
email containing data about how paypal has blocked countries due to high scams happening in those countries.
email containing a request to get a name of a customer services supervisor as the number one contact point for anything bitcoin related.

ill leave him to work out why and how this stuff would be important. just to see if he already has the knowledge and skills to work out how to approach a corporation.

You're missing the point.  You post on your company's FB page using your personal FB account which contains photos which convey an image which is anything but professional.

http://www.facebook.com/aaron.carter.7374480/photos_stream

Whether in Bitcoinland or elsewhere, one of the first things people want to do when dealing with a new company is get a sense of who the people behind that company are.  It's not "stalking", its due diligence.  None of the photos on your FB create an impression of you being "professional" - quite the reverse. You might as well have photos on there of you in your pyjamas swilling beer.

I don't care what you share with your friends on FB, but if you want to create an aura of credibility and professionalism then use a separate "personal" account which doesn't contain images of you looking like a hillbilly survivalist spree killer when posting on your company's FB.

that's probably what adam lanza thought too.

Great Incentive. . And beware starting an incentive like this you are going to get attacked by people who fare by fraud .. " bare assertion fallacy"  .  . very useful. .

I had a long drive to and from my aunt's house to do some thinking. And Rob E is right... beat me to what I wanted to say.

When the thread first went up we had the beginnings of what was going to be a constructive conversation that would get somewhere. But a couple of people had it on their agenda, from the start, that they were not going to let that happen, no matter what the cost. They know their way around a forum, and how to yell and pound their chest the loudest to make people think they're right, or at least cast enough doubt into the equation to derail the thing. Notice the choice of words like "let this thread die"... And that really gives me cause to question what their motivations really are. Because it obviously isn't to help the Bitcoin community and reduce the danger of fraud that hangs over all of us (even scammers are at risk of being scammed, though I do not sympathize with them).

Regardless of what their motivations are, the idea of an anti-fraud campaign in the Bitcoin community is going to worry those who do make their living at fraud (or at least on a supplementary basis) and their ability to hide behind the anonymity of the Bitcoin, Tor and other technologies. A group of people ruthlessly hunting them down and exposing them like a pack of wolves on a scared deer is disquieting for some, to say the least... And those, like me, who have opted out of anonymity -- because we had nothing to hide -- could actually end up in danger of physical, financial or social harm if we were to be the ones who brought (or even were passively involved in bringing) financial criminals to justice. So now that I've thought about it, perhaps I'm not the best person to be the "dagger", due to my lack of anonymity. That role should be played by people who have a bit more internet/networking savvy and have put in the monumental effort to develop secure, anonymous identities. I should focus my efforts on the organization, advisory and "lobbying" front, which is what I'm best at anyway...

I am 100% sincere about my wish to see this team, project or whatever you want to call it get off the ground. Excluding the votes of "franky1", "repentance" and "E&G", who have given us ample reason to become better acquainted with our "Ignore" buttons, if community members are not comfortable with me handling donation money (which is understandable...I'm new here) then we can appoint someone else to manage the accounting for this. At this point I really don't even want to handle other people's donation money because even when I end up doing the right thing with it, as promised, the nonsense, conspiracy theories and slander will continue and it will be counter-productive to the entire effort. So I would suggest we find a veteran community member who has a history of being a reputable trader or money manager here who is willing and able to handle it. I would nominate someone like BCB, who I have seen (personally) can be trusted and is always very courteous and professional. I know there are others like him in this community, though I've never met or traded with them. We should definitely be wary of picking any of the noise-makers and trouble-men hanging around on these forums. Someone who can't carry out a civilized discussion is undeserving of any trust from anyone. So let's please pick someone reliable, honest and respectful whom we can be proud of. I'm still holding that little bit of coin (0.8 BTC) I received earlier and will be adding some more of my own to it to help this project. If any more coin finds its way to the address I posted (1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs) it will be visible in the block-chain and I will make sure every satoshi (and then some) goes to the right place -- be it directly to the effort itself or, preferably, to a delegated accountant whom we can rely on to make good use of it.

I have a nice little chunk of change in the wallet the donation address belongs to and it's ready to be used in this effort when people start stepping up to help with the website, lobbying efforts and other things we need done. If/when we select an accountant I will gladly surrender the 3rd party 0.80 BTC donation and my own 0.941 BTC "matching" contribution to that person, and any other coin the address receives (if any) and permanently remove this burden from my shoulders.

Block-chain info can be found here:
http://blockchain.info/address/1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs

Note that I tried to make a testing transaction of 1.00 BTC earlier today and then noticed the network deducted the 0.80 BTC donation received from that donation address. So I had first 1.00 BTC and then 0.741 BTC credited back to the donation address I created to put it back and include a donation of my own to it (totaling 0.941 BTC). Prepared to donate more when help is found...

Regards,

--ATC--

P.S. :: Will be pushing hard to produce some tangible results on the Paypal front. Going to spend some more time writing tomorrow and post it ASAP for peer review.

ATC777
I certainty appreciate your energy and eagerness and enthusiasm however you should spend a little more time reading the forums and getting to know the community before you start making grand plans and claims. And while you have to take some comments with a grain of salt many members mean well and actually know what they are talking about when they contribute to the dialogue. You don't have to agree with all of it but  I do think that as part of a community that highly values freedom of speech you have to try to understand their points.  

Read the scam accusation threads to learn what types of fraud and scams exist and to see what community members are already doing to combat fraud and scams. Join #bitcoin-otc and become a known and trusted member of that community.  And while bitcoin-otc and bitcointalk often act like a bunch of nervous nellies an pounce on noobs who ask uninformed questions and first accuse them all of scamming most of them do mean well.

While is applys more to lending and is not always accurate you should read the "how to spot a scammer" thread. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119896.0


Again bitcoin always welcomes new and enthusiastic members. Just try to get to know and understand the community before you try to naively change or improve it.

For actually doing something instead of asking for donations, I am now working with the Manchester City Council Trading Standards Office regarding CPC. Anyone who can offer additional information or if there is a victim here (because according to their wallet there is at least one by now) please contact P.Minshaw@manchester.gov.uk referencing complaint # 047774

Could you be a bit more specific about what happened here exactly. I don't understand how "the network" would deduct bitcoins from your address.

atc your latest post sounds like a proper business plan. if only your main thread started out as this.

one thing to learn about the community is when dealing with people we have never met face to face trust has to be earned and many people will do 'due diligence' checks and research the name behind the face before trading/handing money to them.

so please do not get offended by people checking your facebook. its not stalking. its just checking up on the person. its standard practice to check who you are dealing with.

and as an anti-fraud organisation it is one key thing that you need to accept and also impliment as part of your business ethos.

secondly many have also checked up on the atc enterprises inc. apart from a business that was formed in 1984 (before you were born) and dissolved in 1990. there are no other Louisiana records on state websites for your business. no yellow pages listings, no google listings. just a facebook page created on december 5th

which is another reason why those that do research people found your proposition initially flawed. due to your lack of credible background.

you might be the most honest guy alive in the world, but please take this under advisement. insulting people that do check up on you is like the opposite of what an antifraud organisation would do. they would actually appreciate people that do background checks.

wanting people to trust you just on face value of a facebook page and a photo is not a good strategy for someone opening an anti-fraud organisation.

the comments about making a reputable person accountable for the donations should definitely be implemented due to the many flaws in your background checks.

have you made a business plan about what kind of expertise you will require to aid you. and i still await the persuasive and detailed template email to paypal.
(not the personal emails about your personal victimisation you have already sent them)

settle down concentrating on donations for now. instead get the main agenda of the organisation sorted. you dont need a website for this. all you need is to request some expertise and send some emails. your day trading/ BMW M.Benz shows everyone that your not poor, so money should not be the main thing that you are repetitively trying to defend your trust over. earn your trust as a anti-fraud organisation CEO. not as a charity.

Your wallet is essentially a private key that "owns" the addresses you've created, and when you receive Bitcoins they are "attached" to the address you received it with. I made this simple visualization of it to demonstrate what I mean:

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9281/walletvisualization.png

The 0.80 BTC donation was the last transaction I'd received. So when I tried to make a transaction for a larger amount, 0.80 BTC was debited from the donation address to carry it out. I didn't quite understand that this was the way it worked until I saw it. So I sent back two transactions to the donation address to "reattach" the 0.80 BTC (and some of my own) to the donation address -- just so that it could be seen I wasn't taking it away and had coin of my own to contribute..

--ATC--

I see. I just assumed you would keep donations isolated from personal funds and had created a separate wallet for this endeavor.

Ok... now back to the original subject...

When I first made the OP I was a bit "emotionally charged" and probably in the wrong state of mind... I had just figured out how deep the rabbit hole goes, and was quite pissed off about how wide-spread scamming is in Bitcoinland. I had been up all night researching and investigating and was completely exhausted, so I was indeed a bit too hasty and too eager to do something. I should've slept on it and organized my thoughts the next morning. As BCB points out, I am a newbie here and that makes it difficult to relate to others who've been here long before me. Those of you who've been here for several years have probably dealt with more scamming than I can even imagine, and your patience has simply worn thing... this is understandable... But I would still like to point out that you shouldn't personally attack people and treat them like dirt when they haven't actually done harm to anyone... :-)

That being said, let's hurry up and find someone to be the accountant and come up with a gameplan. In the meantime, I'll be spending my time continuing my efforts with Paypal and eBay. I would greatly appreciate some community input on how we can proceed with this idea and see it come to fruition. We really need this...

@ franky1 ::

Franky, you still do not seem to understand... I will go over this with you one more time, but it is beginning to get rather annoying, no offense. So allow me to respond to each of your remarks...


You have a valid point here, and you have indeed made several valid points. But the weight of them is significantly reduced by your deviation from reasonable, civilized discussion to personal attacks and slander having little/no base in reality...


No, I was never offended by anyone checking my Facebook. Anyone is welcome to add me on Facebook and be my friend, chat, whatever. What is offensive is going on someone's Facebook and hijacking their pictures so you can call them things like "hillbilly" and "spree killer"... and you know you saw that. That is NOT "due dilligence", and no one was asked to make an investment in my company (the doors are closed anyway). That is childish... I expect better from kids in high school...


You don't seem to understand that my company is a new company, and we have just incorporated. We are not yet showing up in listings... it is not an instantaneous process. Why are you surprised that I created a Facebook page on Dec. 5th for a brand-new corporation that was founded on that date? Our legal work for the incorporation process has only just finished. And we have nothing to do with now defunct "ATC Enterprises" founded in 1984... as you pointed out, that was 4 years before I was born. There are numerous websites on the internet trying to use the name "ATC Enterprises" but they do not own the name, and probably aren't even real, registered companies... our preliminary name search cleared earlier in December, as no one owned the name and it now belongs to us -- a brand-new corporation.

What I fail to understand is what any of this has to do with the idea of an open anti-fraud organization I want to see started in the community, which I have already said I do NOT want to own or be in charge of... ATC Enterprises, Inc. is a private company and it is completely my own affair and has NOTHING to do with the proposed anti-fraud organization. I am accountable to the law and shareholders, but not you. No one here is being asked to invest in my company, and as I've already pointed out no one here can invest in it... if I allowed such a thing we would no longer qualify for SEC exemptions and would have to register with them, file a formal prospectus and waste a lot of unnecessary time and money for nothing. So I dunno why you're so eager to bash my little company that I've started and try to make me look bad... Lay off, bro...


That is a rather distorted view of what has happened here...


I don't recall insulting anyone... what I DO recall is being insulted, personally attacked and accused of various outlandish conspiracy theories. No one here did a real "background check" on me. The only thing you guys did was attempt a personal assault on me as a person and offered a very twisted and cruel portrayal of me to suit your own purposes.


Again, there have been no actual background checks... just some very childish and immature behavior.


Why do you keep using terms like "business" and "investment", when this is not what this is about? What I have proposed is an open, community-based non-profit organization to fight fraud and scammers. And I have also stated more than a few times I do not want to end up as the leader.


I'm not asking for any more donations. I want the responsibility taken off my hands immediately so I can be at peace again...


Ah, so you noticed... Perhaps I haven't been such a business "failure" after all, and as far as my own company (a private venture) goes I know what I am doing... So please leave me alone about my company...


I don't WANT to be "CEO" of the anti-fraud organization. Other than running my own private company my way, not yours, I just want to play my part in getting one started and helping it accomplish something. So again, I'm asking people to step up and help with the effort. And the sooner someone is elected to take over the funds/donations the better, because I'm sick of holding it in my wallet and being attacked.

Regards,

--ATC--

It was a newbie mistake... I didn't quite understand how it worked until I saw what happened and had to rectify it. That is another reason I don't want to be in charge of any donation money anymore.  :-[

Anyone could please TL;DR what ATC said?

I don't understand the use of "TL;DR" as a transitive verb?  ???

transitive verb tl;dr = 'summarize'

10mBtc for a nice tl;dr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Too_long;_didn't_read) post

Edit: Ok, 50mBtc for it, I really want to know what is all about in this thread.

When I first encountered the term, I Googled "tl dr", but the results proved too long to read, so I didn't bother. Somebody should start a Cliff Notes version of the internet so that I can fully enjoy it.

I sure do love Aaron's writing abilities. Puts me to shame, albeit that wouldn't have taken much. I wouldn't mind having him on my team as a player in some future enterprise. Welcome to the community, Aaron. (Apology inferred!)

BTW, Aaron, are you planning on attending the conference in San Jose, California on May 17-19 2013, titled "Bitcoin 2013: The Future of Payments"?

Later, bud.

~Bruno K~

Its a trap, just ignore Bruno he is baiting you. He is evil, true story.

Keep this up and you will hit 10k posts tonight Bruno. And I can hit 1k too with some effort, then I can be 1/10th as evil as you!

Great! Who do I make the $10M check out to?  :-*

Is this some kind of new coon-ass humor? I've lived in McComb, MS, for three years and never ran across it. Perhaps the border patrol stopped it from crossing over at Osyka.

Just messin' with you, Aaron. Later, bud.

~Bruno K~

are you really wasting your time waffling about personal attacks?

seriously?

i have not called you childish or immature or used any derogatory names for you. so please please i plead with all my fingers pressed on the keyboard please read the threads.

are you also arguing with people because they have checked up on you?

you should be applauding people for finding vulnerabilities in your background and not trusting people on face value.

you should be teaching everyone to be doing the same, not attacking them.

now drop the defensive status, and accept that background checks are the norm when it comes to non face to face trading. don't reply with a defensive insult about immaturity and slander (by the way, you meant liable..)

take it on the chin that some people actually do look at the information available about the person.

now lets move onto the antifraud organisation. you dont want to head it up, ok cool. even more reason not to get defensive about it.

an antifraud organisation nees to do these things
* teach people of the easy to spot flaws in peoples background checks
* understand the laws that viable businesses need to obide by.
* to know the crime prevention agencies around the world that can enforce takedown orders on websites.
* understand that prevention is better then cure. especially on an anonymous community where its hard to chase after them after the fact. (E.G stopping CPC electronics before people hand over their money)
* understand that it does not cost huge amounts to send emails to crime prevention agencies or to the companies involved

now i plead again do not reply with a defensive waffle trying to win trust. please stick to the main evidence which we have asked for

*templates/emails sent to paypal/ebay. as stated you have already made some progress.
*templates/emails to CPC electronics
*list of the skills you require of people that you want to have within the organisation to take the pressure away from you.

I was just foxin.  ;)

I used to do a lot of deer hunting just outside of McComb... also been through Osyka quite a bit.

So... no one going to help it seems...  :P

How can I just give back the 0.80 BTC donation to whence it came?

In the block-chain info it looks like it came from the address: 1Dmn9Pj2V59f8taWeHxJ3gmc3BXVgV3qc

http://blockchain.info/address/1Cr3MTEQxruNimtdCBbUBvDtZFmcW7gHSs

Should I just send it back there?

I just wanna give it back and I'm going to work on this pet project I have on my heart on my own time and I'll put in my own money. Others can choose to help me, or not. But it's just not worth the controversy, imho. We can't accomplish anything if we only argue amongst ourselves and let con artists run unbridled throughout our community...  :-\

Sorry if my excitement ran too high and I started off on the wrong foot... I just think this it is important for the future of Bitcoin to clean up the filth. Without confidence we are destined to fail. But if we can make Bitcoin commerce safe we can turn this world upside down.

--ATC--

P.S. -- I'm not stopping my efforts. Just wanna take 3rd party funds out of the equation.

It is a futile effort.  PayPal has no financial incentive to change anything neither does VISA or Matercard.  Someone using one of those and operating behind TOR dealing only with intangibles (no physical address) is essentially undetectable.  This is why it was naive to accept PayPal as a payment method despite the stickied warning in currency exchange.

Then rather than learn from that you jump off tilting at windmills.  Bitcoin commerce is safe, we did over $3M in transactions last year and I hope to triple that this year.  Your grandiose claims are off putting.  There isn't anything insecure about Bitcoin, there is something insecure with how YOU chose to do business.

The only way this is going to really work is to do it as a for-profit business and charge a fee to determine the fraud risk for each transaction.

I know. Which is why I completely stopped dealing with Paypal and such. I already acknowledged that mistake.

It's not Bitcoin itself which is unsafe. It's the fact that there are scammers everywhere preying on people because no one has really done anything to stop them. I talked to a guy last night who said he has more scammers trying to buy from him than legitimate customers. That is, to say the least, quite troubling...

And don't be mistaken... what I'm proposing is NOT just about Paypal or credit card companies. It's about combating all Bitcoin-related fraud/scams, even things such as the bogus CPC electronics which a few of our community members are actively working on having shut down. These are the types of things we need to be working on together to "clean up the street".

Even if all I accomplish is raising some awareness and stopping one person from getting cheated by someone like the people behind the fake CPC then we did something worthwhile... So while we might not be taking down "bad guys" like Dog the Bounty Hunter, at least we can do something in the way of prevention and seeking policy changes.

Fraud is rampant across all payment methods, particularly internet-related ones like credit cards. Bitcoin is the only safe one. You can accept Bitcoins from any customer from anywhere in the world, and never have to worry about fraud.

Yes, 1Dmn9Pj2V59f8taWeHxJ3gmc3BXVgV3qc is the address to send the 0.80 back to. Thanks for your efforts.

Just sent you 0.81 BTC so it would cover your transaction fee for sending it to me in the first place.

Transaction ID#::
aed023de995d6f8106dfa6932790ab33a527c6130932de6d092ba8685af41219

Please confirm that you've received it!

BTW, I really thank you for your willingness to help and do something good in the community. I'm going to keep working on seeing this idea come to fruition!  :)

Regards,

--ATC--

EDIT::

Here's the block-chain info for your incoming 0.81 BTC refund:
http://blockchain.info/address/1Dmn9Pj2V59f8taWeHxJ3gmc3BXVgV3qc

Thanks ATC, got it. Good luck with your future endeavours on this!

No prob, and thanks again!  :D

------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem doesn't come from accepting Bitcoin as a payment... of course when looked at in that light, Bitcoin is the safest of all: basically it's digital, password-protected cash and doesn't have your name or any personal info attached. The problems come when we need to exchange Bitcoin for other currencies, such as the US dollar. We can't exactly stuff cash in our computer and send it to someone. Of course, you can make wire transfers but that's not so convenient (many banks require you to appear in person). It sucks, but Paypal and credit cards are about the only instant online payment options for fiat currencies. And Bitcoin needs liquidity to grow and survive... people need to have easier access to Bitcoin and merchants need safe, instantaneous ways of accepting payment in fiat currencies -- especially when selling Bitcoins. This is going to require a lot of change...

Anyhow, I'm still working on my approach to Paypal about this. I drafted out a lot of what I wanted to say about all of this, but I'm struggling a bit with a good introduction to the whole thing. It needs to come off right, so that its importance comes across and catches their attention. But I still haven't figured out the best way to pitch this to them... I scratched something out earlier, and I'd like to have it subjected to peer-review and get some suggestions/corrections. It will lose its formatting when I post it here, but this is it:


(NOTE :: Unfinished rough draft)

If anyone can make some suggestions or criticisms I definitely appreciate the effort!  :)

--ATC--

Did you know that when PayPal first started its founders embraced an ideal parallel to Bitcoin? But all that changed just prior to eBay taking over the rein.

During the reign of Meg "Evil" Whitman, I.?  :D

Ok, seeing no one wants to do it I posted on Rugatu and attached the coins to it.

http://www.rugatu.com/questions/5757/can-you-write-a-forum-thread-summary

Hope you guys can help, I don't have the time to lurk this much.