Bitcoin Forum

I found a high school level probability math error in the InstantX white paper that had been there for a guess roughly a year and nobody had done the peer review. So this tells you there is no world-class development team.

The white paper was claiming astronomical odds of colluding masternodes able to corrupt the InstantX transactions. I showed the probability was much more reasonable.

I think chainradar are using all the 0 mixin transactions from exchanges and pools in order to guess - the things in https://lab.getmonero.org/pubs/MRL-0004.pdf. I tried some transactions with mixing 7 and 5 between my wallets and they are successfully guessing most of them. This issue is already addressed in the MRL-0004 and we knew that, but it's scary seeing it in chainradar. Everybody should stop using mixing of 0 until this is enforced in the protocol - including pools and exchanges. I suppose some mixings between your own wallets with high mixing should resolve the issue for now. Trollfest incoming :(.

XMR / Monero broken crypto:


:'( :'( :'(

XMR / Monero broken crypto:


:'( :'( :'(

This issue is related to privacy not "bad crypto" or math.

The thing is: 99.9999% of inhabitants of this planet can't even track a btc-transaction on blockchain.info

So the anon-coin-hype has finally worn off same as the pos-hype?

So we're back to conventional pow, right?  ::)   :P    8)     ;D     :D   

Damn it. I was hoping monero was something I could invest in.

The poll was not focused on privacy, the danger of high school level mathematics is far greater than that. The random number generator (RNG) error with the DASH paper wallet generator literally put users at risk of their entire balances being stolen.

The poll was not focused on privacy, the danger of high school level mathematics is far greater than that.

XMR / Monero broken crypto:


:'( :'( :'(

I tested it against 19 transactions, some mixin 4 and some mixin 20 (excluding my own signature, so mixin 5 and 21 according to ChainRadar).

For these transactions none of them were completely compromised by ChainRadar, and ChainRadar got 0 out of 157 guesses correct.

It's bad crypto alright. Monero users were transacting "anonymously" for a year only to discover later that they could be trivially deanonymized because those in charge hadn't fixed a "hole" in the system from the start.

XMR / Monero broken crypto:


:'( :'( :'(

Cost for the attacker: Millions of USD to buy masternodes

There is no such cost, since nothing is consumed. You still have the masternodes when you are done. If done as a malicious attack that reduces the value of the token, an attacker would have already stripped his exposure from his stake and resold it via derivatives. If merely done for spying purposes then you can continue to both spy and collect masternode rewards. This will outcompete honest masternodes over time since spying has economic value.

Yeah, well, if you want it that way, buying the monero supply to sybil all the mixins (a la BCN-83% "their mixin is insecure"), would also be a feasible economic attack. So XMR = REKT by the "theoretical" buyer of most coins  :'( :'( :'(

These types of attacks where someone comes and buys all the coins are too theoretical for my preference.

We are talking about ...jamming a transaction, after spending a shitload of money. And that's to jam 0.x% of instantx transactions that at worst will be confirmed 150seconds later per the casual block confirmation... that doesn't make any sense.

If it's a valid game theory scenario, and makes sense for the attacker, we'll see it happen. I don't see it happening.

I was talking about darksend spying, which you can't see happening, but is all but inevitable (and the only way out there is essentially an accidental miracle) given the incentives.

Well, the more you mix, the lower the probabilities of bad actors affecting you. That's pretty much the same across the board, in all mixing scenarios, including Cryptonote mixin settings.

The OP however refers to the "highschool maths" from a TPTB post about InstantX.

For higher order tiers (backed money, e.g. Bitcoin CT), obscured blockchains are acceptable.

it will not be a higher order tier, it will be regular, ordinary main-chain Bitcoin transactions in which the amounts payable to each output are obscured (mathematically verifiable, but not visible in plaintext

i feel like something profound is being communicated,
yet i'don't have the foggiest of clues :?

Don't worry, you're in good company ;)

Not sure what you're talking about, even when CT is implemented, you can still validate the coin total.


"[–]fluffyponyzaXMR Core Team 3 points 2 months ago

"So, having only the blockchain data, is it possible to mathematically prove that all blocks inside followed the rules?"

Yes - read gmaxwell's write-up on CT and you'll see that amounts can still be verified.

To illustrate it as simply as I can: imagine if every transaction input was 1000 XMR. But, using ring signatures, you mix your real input of 55 XMR with a bunch of other ones that adds up to 1000 XMR. Analysing the blockchain we can still verify that it adds up to 1000 XMR, but we can't tell which value is yours."

The elephant in the room is monetary properties, not technical ones. It's very simple, for tier 1 monetary assets:

Good crypto = Public Blockchains
Bad Crypto = Obscrued Blockchains

For higher order tiers (backed money, e.g. Bitcoin CT), obscured blockchains are acceptable.

So you should therefore be discussing the merits of Good/Bad crypto within the domain of Public Blockchains explicitly or Good/Bad crypto within the domain of Obscured Blockchains explicitly since they are distinct monetary domains and obscured blockchains do not have any native (unbacked) monetary properties in the first place - even if it is "good crypto".

It would seem that you actually do not understand what cryptography is in the modern sense.

A fundamental nature of information is that it wants to be freely copied everywhere to everyone. That any bit is equal and indistinguishable from any other bit of the same value and that any bit is eventually known to all who care.  Cryptography is all that technology by which we hope to confine and constrain the nature of information, to put up fences and direct it to our exclusive purposes, against all attacks and in defiance of the seemingly (and perhaps actually) impossible.  Digital signatures are cryptography by any modern definition and utilize the same tools and techniques (for example, a DSA signature is a linear equation encrypted with an additively homorphic encryption), and suffer from most of the same challenges as the message encryption systems to which you seem to be incorrectly defining cryptography as equivalent.  Moreover, the use of digital signatures isn't the only (or even most relevant) aspect of cryptography in cryptocurrencies-- e.g. the prevention of double spending of otherwise perfectly copyable and indistinguishable information in a decentralized system is a cryptographic problem which we address using cryptographic tools, and-- like all other practical cryptography-- achieve far less than perfect confidence in our solution. As are more modest ends like interacting with strangers but not being subject to resource exhaustion from them.

Far more so than other sub-fields of engineering, cryptographic systems are doing something which is fundamentally at odds with nature and share an incredible fragility and subtly as a result (and perhaps all are failures, we have no proof otherwise).

A failure to understand and respect these considerations has resulted in a lot of harmful garbage and dysfunctional software.

This thread is moving pretty quickly (ten pages of mudslinging in half as many hours!) so I'm not sure you'll see this, but there's an important misunderstanding here. You're right that the human beings aren't cryptographic (e.g. the development team, market participants, etc) --- though it's important to observe that this makes them very unsuited to cryptographic functionality. gmaxwell had an elegant description of cryptography as "technology by which we hope to confine and constrain the nature of information" despite information respecting no ownership, borders or morality. He described this as "inherently subtle and fragile", which it is, but this indifference to political and social pressure also make it efficient (human trust is expensive to build and maintain!) and robust against a lot of political and social pressures that human systems are not. This robustness is the cypherpunk motivation for bringing cryptography into everyday life: anything we have the technology to do cryptographically rather than socially ought to be, since social systems can change quickly and unjustly. Nowhere is this more true than finance, so cryptocurrency is a perfect environment for this kind of thing. So cryptocurrencies try to eliminate human decision points wherever possible, and where not they try to set things up so others can't override each others' decisions (hence the value implied by buzzwords like "decentralization" and "censorship resistance" and "public verifiability").

I'm not entirely clear on what masternodes do these days, but I infer that their actions affect users' privacy, i.e. they are "confining and constraining" information. This is a cryptographic function too. Human decisions may factor into their behaviour, but they are still performing a cryptographic function; human involvement does not change this, only changes the failure modes.

All this to say that basically the entirety of cryptocurrency really is cryptography. Even many of the human parts. The network transport is part of the cryptosystem: it needs to be designed to prevent modification of data in transport, authentication of data even when endpoints are anonymous and spoofable, etc. A wallet is part of the cryptosystem: it's responsible for creating verification keys ("scriptPubKeys" in Bitcoin, which are usually abbreviated to addresses) whose corresponding private keys are controlled by the correct parties to the correct extent, and for correctly and securely storing these keys. Wallets are decoupled from the main cryptocurrency cryptosystem, and in particular are not part of the hard part --- consensus code --- but they are certainly cryptographic and are subject to the same sort of subtle missteps as other cryptosystems. (For example, the oft-cited BIP32 "bug" where a party in possession of a public key and chaincode can derive the secret key from a non-hardened child secret key; it would not be hard to come up with a plausible-sounding system which "unintentionally" exposed secret data through this mechanism.)

I'll repeat my above statement: basically the entirety of cryptocurrency really is cryptography. This is important. It's why things are so subtle, why complexity is dangerous, and why changing even trivial-seeming things can have drastic and hard-to-analyze consequences. This is where "a lot of harmful garbage and dysfunctional software" comes from. It's the default for poorly-thought-out systems. And in cryptography, "poorly thought out" means anything less than expert cryptographers spending large amounts of time and effort designing things to be both correct and clearly correct. (Given how few experts there are in the cryptocurrency space, I could tell you that almost all of it is shit just by the pigeonhole principle :).)

This is not a cheap standard to hold a system to even if its designers want to; and falsely claiming that something is not cryptographic is an easy way to excuse not wanting to. But such claims do not change reality.


This is simply false.

For those just tuning in, you should know that this guy is responsible for the brilliant statement of

I've already explained the critical difference between the two. One has an ongoing cost to bad actors, the other does not.

The lack of any quantifiable cost means is that attacks are plausibly unbounded. More mixing will not save you.

Was there any peer review of the InstantX white paper whatsoever? Was TPTB the first one to catch the error 1+ years later?

The "error" involves broken game theory for the attack vector.

^What do you mean "broken game theory"?

I can understand Anonymint! I had similar thoughts like him!
I mean take clothes for example. Some people seem to think they're a good idea, but I -being the unsung genius of our time- recognized after painstaking analysis a simple but glaring failure of clothes everybody seems to have ignored: They don't protect you from meteorite impacts!

Now don't try to distract from this gigantic design error by citing "probability" or similar nonsense! It doesn't change the fact that anyone hit by a meteorite is going to die even though he or she was wearing clothes! That's why I decided to stay naked for the rest of my life, because it's not going to make any difference when the meteorites strike!

Now give me money so I can pay medical bills! For some reason I keep getting sick!

I've seen the discussion between Evan and TPTB_ which went something like "oh this could be lowered to 0.% of transactions even if the attacker held XXX masternodes", and then after some back and forth it degraded to "Oh the masternodes are illegal in the usa, the financial authorities this, and that" etc etc.

The Monerotards just can't ever admit that someone else could do anything they couldn't do and give proper credit and respect where it is due. Sigh.

And then they wonder why their shitcoin is going no where and those who have the talent to make it go somewhere are not motivated to join with their sick attitudes.

You guys are hilarious. Keep making excuses to deny reality but it won't help you in the real world.

Not even one thank you for pointing an egregious error in Shen's proposed solution which could have enabled me to crash your market price had I withheld the information and supplied it after you implemented a hard fork with the design error. Instead I get verbal diarrhea about senile rage. My and the community wide anger against Monerotards, is because of for example your Shen's condescending verbiage and now more of it from all you key persons in the Monerotard community and even the lead developer.

Monerotards....  ::)


:'( :'( :'(

So the errors or "errors" that TPTB indicate only ...matter depending the various time-space coordinates, and his likes, or dislikes, at any given point within that 4-dimensional array.

Sounds legit.

Unlike people wasting their time on forums mudslinging, Evan uses his time to code the next features of DASH.

If he sits here debating all day then we'd hear: "doesn't he have anything better to do, like code?"

If he codes and doesn't debate endlessly the (self-defeating - from a game theory perspective) scenario of ...jamming an instantx transaction after acquiring a large number of masternodes => "he run away".

You can spin it any way you want really. It doesn't matter.

If you think mudslinging is a good tactic for promoting Monero, then be my guest. You'll be actively contributing to defining what bad crypto is: Crypto that wants to rise not by virtue of its better characteristics, but by throwing mud at their opponents.

This is now, what? The 10th thread or so of "Monerotards" attacking DASH? Get a life. Or a better coin. Then the market will appreciate it, if it becomes such. You won't get any value from the market without providing value to the coin. Even if DASH never existed, Monero would still be stuck. Contemplate that for a change.

Monerotards....  ::)


:'( :'( :'(

Mixin 0 wasn't too scientific though, was it? ::)

imagine if we had 3,700,000 coins locked up in a masternode scheme?

You'll have to ask Shelby. My guess is he'll tell you before you get a chance to ask, but my point is that Evan runs away when he can't explain a failure

Now the thread is completely derailed from the hs math versus cryptography

And the "real deal" is a public blockchain.

1. Who developed Cryptonote with unrestricted mix 0?

2. Who analyzed the issue and published the analysis of the problem (also with mix 1)?

3. Who developed and published a proposed fix prior to implementing and deploying it?

4. Who implemented and deployed a fix?

There's your answer.

My answers:

1. Cryptonote/Bytecoin
2. Monero
3. Monero
4. Monero, Boolberry (partially), and AEON

Just show me the public blockchain for gold. Where can I see all the account balances?

Gold is a public blockchain in its own right, not an obscured one. Identifiable out in the open, by atomic number (http://images2.cpcache.com/image/24000722_350x350.png), by anyone who cares to inspect it.

Gold futures on the other hand are not a public blockchain. They are contracts which you cannot see and are kept private due to the fact that they're anonymous. But then again, gold futures are tier 2 monetary media - a piece of paper that is backed by gold.

So even by that analogy:

Gold = Part of the "metals" public blockchain with address 79 in the periodic table that is inspectable by anyone
Gold futures = obscured blockchain that is only any use as long as its "backer" exist (the metal)

I think you misread my message. I want to see the account balances of the gold 'public blockchain', not the atomic number.

Your trying to push the idea that because someone can hide a piece of gold under their bed, that means obscured blockchains can have "value".

I'm afraid it doesn't work like that

Make up whatever you want, of course, just don't expect anyone else to care.

I'm asking to see the public blockchain, where everyone can see all the balances.

You are still singing this tune, eh?

For those just tuning in, you should know that this guy is responsible for the brilliant statement of

"Cryptography has never been a significant part of cryptocurrency - even though it may share the first few letters. "

This occurred during a very heated debate in what I hoped we could consider "classic" DASH vs XMR threads, which were quite literally 1 year ago.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.msg10921597#msg10921597

Which was politely responded to by gmaxwell



And then by andytoshi



At the end of the day, reader, whomever you are, you are obviously free to do whatever you wish and listen to whomever. Just know who (and what) you're getting in bed with.

fuse blown

Did Monero's emissions and transactions suddenly become unverifiable?

They've always been unverifiable.

So do you think Monero's cryptography is broken

Do you realise you're talking about gold ?

No, high school math is good enough    - 7 (31.8%)

I don't care that I can do all sorts of chemical tests to verify the validity of the gold, I want to see how much each account has on a public blockchain.  

No more broken than SSL.

But SSL is not a store of value. It is a decentralised cryptographic messaging system. Invest in it if you like it.

The only thing that distinguishes a cryptographic messaging system from Bitcoin is that Bitcoin is a public blockchain and cryptographically obscurred blockchains are not.

Thats what makes Bitcoin money.

If it was not a public blockchain and everyone could not inspect every single address - regardless of whether they possesed a private key to that address or not - then it would not constitute (base) money.

What makes Bitcoin money is that people believe it is money. End of story.

Not end of story.

The reason they believe it's money is that they can see it's money.

On the other hand, with an obscured blochain they can't see f*ck all. (Hence the title "obscured"). So it's even less believable. The words emperor and clothes spring to mind ;)

I don't need anyone (especially a wanabee economist) to tell me that I need to see other people's balances for it to be money

Firstly, in this case, we're talking about unbacked money, so I'm afraid you do.

Secondly, a blockchain is anonymous - like a rock. So the fact that you hold a piece of it doesn't endow it with your identity. Nobody is therefore "seeing your balance" by catching sight of that piece of rock.

You can relax.

Why would I want respect from the community of a coin with a broken design
....
Sorry when I build up Monero because I state facts that are true about it

Monero #REKT  :'( :'( :'(
XMR #badcrypto #broken #veryREKT

Why would I want respect from the community of a coin with a broken design that I aim for my project to supercede  ???  (note no one is excluded from leaving the broken design and joining the winner)

iCEBREAKER, just admit you can't understand what I wrote at the linked research.

Good to see iCEBREAKER is still going to need some proof from me. I love the competitiveness.

Sorry when I build up Monero because I state facts that are true about it, it doesn't mean anything has changed in terms of my plans. Hell will freeze over before I will ever write a line of code for Monero[1]. No disrespect to those who created Monero, they will be welcome to join the winner.

(can you tell I am getting healthy now, lol)

[1] I am not going to get involved in any C++ source code bases, so no bitcoind and no Monero. I know C++ since I wrote CoolPage (million user app) in it, but been there, done that, never again. More importantly, I want to change the world, so I am not going to get involved with designs that can't possible scale to 1 million transactions per second. That would be a waste of my legacy. And I am not going to get involved with communities that are off in their little corner of the internet and haven't attracted superstar non-anonymous programmers. I want to see LinkedIn accounts and career history plus major accomplishments. Gmaxwell and Adam Back don't count, because they are number theoretic/cryptography nerds. They are not systems engineers (which was obvious in my technical debate with gmaxwell regarding the indexing of streaming audio formats) and certainly not savvy marketers for the large scale adoption we need. Honestly I think smooth is very smart, but I have no idea who he is and what he has done in his career in detail. I have some vague public rumor (and his private statement) that he worked in FinTech.

Hey. You got me there - you'd better ask the holders  ;)

Now that you quoted the entire post, does it change the fact that he says MONERO IS A BROKEN DESIGN?

Not quite. I said Bitcoin is broken and both can't scale to million tx/s.

Cryptonote was created by anonymous people. Even Monero's cryptographer is anonymous. Who created this anonymity that is easily broken by meta-data. I don't know if that is circumspect or just the way the world turns.

Regarding Monero's anonymity, do you stand by the statement you've expressed below in the past (regarding broken anonymity due to metadata correlation)?

Now that you quoted the entire post, does it change the fact that he says BITCOIN IS A BROKEN DESIGN?

FTFY

Now apologize for misreading and misquoting what was pretty obvious for anyone with high school reading skills.

Against the NSA yes I stand by the assertion that IP address correlation unmasks, overlapping rings unmask, etc. It all adds up if you are trying to hide from governments, then I don't trust Monero or any anonymous coin.

Yeah because if he considers bitcoin as "broken" due to its scaling which is 10 times better than monero, then monero ...isn't broken :D

Dat logic.

And he also asserted time and time again (even two posts above) that the anonymity is broken against the state due to metadata correlation.



#badycrypto XMR  :'( :'( :'(

Smooth has pointed out that metadata isn't the problem that Monero was designed to solve

Yeah because if he considers bitcoin as "broken" due to its scaling which is 10 times better than monero, then monero ...isn't broken

Monero is not anonymous when your metadata can be correlated. One example of metadata which unmasks your anonymity is your IP address. And no, Tor and I2P mixnets do not hide your IP address from the government, in fact they are thought to be Sybil attacked honeypots that not only tell the government your IP address but also alert the NSA et al that you should come under extra scrutiny.

Additionally I have been making the point since the BCX incident that ring signatures can theoretically be unmasked by combinatorial analysis of the block chain. In the recent debate I had with Monero's cryptographer Shen-noether at Reddit about his white papers, I pointed out that his proposed solution to combinatorial unmasking was flawed. He and smooth did the usual ad hominem attack on my person, and then I rebutted them with logical facts and they were forced to finally put their tail between their legs.

Bullshit. So much bullshit in these discussions of cryptocurrency technology. Especially coming from all the Monero pumpers who haven't done their homework, because they are retarded, closed-minded, and boastfully so.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1183043.msg13850005;topicseen#msg13850005
...
Thus the abstract BGP analysis does apply to the conclusion that Monero (and Ethereum) have deluded themselves into thinking they can avoid centralization and instead gets centralization in a way they did not want.

Thus I have explained there is no Nash equilibrium in Monero's penalty feature (unlike for Satoshi's longest chain rule where there is indeed a Nash equilibrium because if miners don't converge on the longest chain then all their chains are invalid/orphans and worthless without consensus).

Scaling "10 times better" is frankly pretty ridiculous.

It may be, on the lower side. It could be worse than 10x.

What's your blockchain size right now?

...


...
...

Monero Review:

Broken anonymity [✓]
Broken scaling [✓]
Broken game theory / Broken Nash Equilibrium [✓]
Delusional, retarded and pumper-minded community [✓]
Cryptographers with broken cryptographic ideas [✓]
Broken de-centralization that will tend to centralization [✓]

Congratulations. You passed your "broken crypto" review with flying colors.

Monero #REKT  :'( :'( :'(

Blockchain size is not a measure of scalability (and as I said there is no useful numeric comparison of "scalability"), but the size is something like 2.5 GB.

So bitcoin is like 25x in terms of blockchain use, but has 2k-3k txs per 10 minutes.

Monero, from the looks of it, has not even 10 txs in the last hour.

Anyway, let's say btc does 200k txs per day and monero does 200 txs per day. That's 1000 to 1 in terms of txs, yet the blockchain isn't 1/1000 of BTC, it's 1/25.

My 10x may be very conservative.

So I wonder if you're some sort of reverse troll.

Why? Two reasons: First, TPTB_need_war has more and harsher criticisms of dash, so the best you can do is make dash look worse than Monero.

Second, you're taking many of TPTB_need war's statements out of context and purposely removing the time stamps

The only way monero can scale if they make thousand clone of it may they will say its a test coin to monero and call it sombrero1, sombrero2, sombrero3 etc  ;D ;D :D

Monero is not anonymous when your metadata can be correlated. One example of metadata which unmasks your anonymity is your IP And IP address is not the only metadata that can destroy your anonymity in ring signatures. Other examples can include cookies in your browser and other activity you did on the web. Other examples also include telephone calls and other activity you did around that time, which have statistical significance.

Not quite. I said Bitcoin is broken and both can't scale to million tx/s. But that doesn't make Monero broken for its target market. Bitcoin is broken both for scaling and for centralization of mining. Monero has advantages on the latter and also adds strong privacy.

My reasons for not wanting to be folded into the development group of Monero, is because I would be a little fish in a little pond. And I am not enthralled about coding on C++ code bases. So what is the redeeming factor, when I have so much opportunity and excitement on what I am working on now? I find it a bit insulting (but more humorous and motivates my competitive fire) when iCEBREAKER and americanpegasus insinuate that the only useful coding I could do in this world would be on the itsy bitsy coins they own. That is because they are speculators and not developers. The developers don't say that to me, because they know better.

Against the NSA yes I stand by the assertion that IP address correlation unmasks, overlapping rings unmask, etc. It all adds up if you are trying to hide from governments, then I don't trust Monero or any anonymous coin. Notice I wrote "privacy" and not anonymity in prior post upthread. For privacy, I think Monero is suitable and Dash is not (because not autonomous End-to-End).

So bitcoin is like 25x in terms of blockchain use, but has 2k-3k txs per 10 minutes.

Monero, from the looks of it, has not even 10 txs in the last hour.

The 2.5 GB is not proportional to the past hour, nor is the past hour representative of all hours. A huge portion of of the entire chain, perhaps half or more, was created within the first few months due to immature pool software doing payouts stupidly, and also when there is occasionally much higher activity (during pumps, mostly). Bitcoin also didn't have that sort of usage for whole lifetime; for the first year or two it was close to dead, and up until last year the usage was significantly lower. With 2k-3k tx/block during its entire life, Bitcoin's blockchain would be much more than 25x bigger.

Overall these sorts of crude comparisons just don't make sense, and just show you are more interested in trolling than thinking.

I guess my quote button works fine, maybe you should hire an expert to look over your system to see what's wrong instead of just accepting it as broken.

I just insert quote / unquote by hand if it's from the SAME post that I'm quoting. I quoted 4 pieces. The first has the timestamp, the second, right below it, doesn't need to. It's the same post (as the first).

The third (from a locked thread) isn't quotable, so I'm just inserting the message link. The fourth doesn't need the link again. It's the same post (as the third).

In case anyone is stupid enough to don't get it, there are "..." between (quote 1/quote 2) and (quote 3/quote 4)

But then again, arguing about quotes, timestamps, trolls, etc, seems to be all that you can do in this debate where XMR is proven to be bad crypto  :'( :'( :'(

Against the NSA yes I stand by the assertion that IP address correlation unmasks, overlapping rings unmask, etc. It all adds up if you are trying to hide from governments, then I don't trust Monero or any anonymous coin. Notice I wrote "privacy" and not anonymity in prior post upthread. For privacy, I think Monero is suitable and Dash is not (because not autonomous End-to-End).

Actually, now that you mention it, I haven't even factored that BTC's blockchain is 7+ years old vs 2 years old of XMR.

Anyway, let's make a hypothetical here.

How much bloat would Monero generate for 20.000 tx per day (1/10th of what bitcoin does), at a relatively low mixin level 3.

Let's get back to the point.

The typical btc tx is around 0.3kb

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero

Introduction

Monero is a private, secure, untraceable currency. You are your bank, you control your funds, and nobody can trace your transfers unless you decide so.

It's not. It is closer to 0.5KB-1 KB, in some blocks >1 KB

Look at the recent blocks.

https://i.imgur.com/nM1SX2g.png

It's the new spam vector :P

Every chain has a degree of spam, that's included in the 2.5 GB Monero chain as well. In reality the 7 TPS benchmark (which comes to 240 bytes) for Bitcoin just turned out to be an unrealistic ideal scenario, or at least unrealistic unless extreme transaction packing efficiency is forced by high tx fees. But that too applies to every chain in various ways. For example here is a mix 4 transaction that is only 758 bytes. If people really cared about fees, transactions would likely be constructed in a more compact manner. YMMV.

http://moneroblocks.info/tx/9fd92998d3bfef59b86aeb09f29746eaf0f49846736965533714800be0eaa31e

Against the NSA yes I stand by the assertion that IP address correlation unmasks, overlapping rings unmask, etc. It all adds up if you are trying to hide from governments, then I don't trust Monero or any anonymous coin. Notice I wrote "privacy" and not anonymity in prior post upthread. For privacy, I think Monero is suitable and Dash is not (because not autonomous End-to-End).

I never asked for NSA proof transactions, nor was I promised them, but I would like protection from non-state actors, and if the right network evolves within I2p or TOR or something else, then a coin that can be NSA proof would be even better, so no dash, yes Monero.

What part of "untraceable" and "nobody" don't you get?

..."nobody can trace your transfers unless you decide so"

Yeah, well, I didn't decide that I wanted the government to know what I'm transacting :'(

Monero #SCAM #REKT  :'( :'( :'(
XMR #snakeoil  :'( :'( :'(

Against the NSA yes I stand by the assertion that IP address correlation unmasks, overlapping rings unmask, etc. It all adds up if you are trying to hide from governments, then I don't trust Monero or any anonymous coin. Notice I wrote "privacy" and not anonymity in prior post upthread. For privacy, I think Monero is suitable and Dash is not (because not autonomous End-to-End).

Well you are both right, lol.

Let AlexGR have his small point victory. Perhaps Monero could put an * footnote on their slogan.

The larger more salient point is generalizethis'.

I wonder if Alex was a king in a previous life--maybe King of Epirus?  :P

Animosity is not good. We're just having fun here with our altcoins (or "shitcoins" for others - depending one's view I guess) :D

Just 5 minutes of anger can cause one's immune system to underperform for up to 7-10 hours or so.

On the other hand, 5 minutes of loving feelings (gratitude, appreciation) can have the same positive effect to the immune system, extending for several hours.

The "battle mode" that one might engage in while foruming and debating in troll threads, is not really conductive to one's health. It must be viewed as a fun exercise.

Animosity is not good. We're just having fun here with our altcoins (or "shitcoins" for others - depending one's view I guess) :D

Just 5 minutes of anger can cause one's immune system to underperform for up to 7-10 hours or so.

On the other hand, 5 minutes of loving feelings (gratitude, appreciation) can have the same positive effect to the immune system, extending for several hours.

The "battle mode" that one might engage in while foruming and debating in troll threads, is not really conductive to one's health. It must be viewed as a fun exercise.

Three beers to that :lifting mugs:

Unlike people wasting their time on forums mudslinging, Evan uses his time to code the next features of DASH.

Ladies & Gentlemen, I present to you the Toknormal Memorial DashHole Ignorance Hall of Fame.   :D

Sigh, he also said dash is the worst of the three, so if you're going to use him as an authority figure, you have to accept that analysis. The enemy of my enemy is my friend until they become friends with my enemy because they just don't like you very much.

Smooth has pointed out that metadata isn't the problem that Monero was designed to solve and it's still up for I2p and TOR and other anonymous networks to prevent metadata collection. Dash doesn't even solve the problem that Monero solves and dash even finds ways to create new problems, like having an instamine and node incentives aggregate power into the form of an oligarchy.

Actually, the public blockchain is a very good analogy for gold.

Don't stop, make it pop
DJ, blow my speakers up
Tonight, Imma fight
'Til we see the sunlight
TiK ToK, on the clock
But the party don't stop no
Whoa-oh oh oh
Whoa-oh oh oh

I was looking for a meme, but I couldn't find one appropriate for that level of stupid

It's not as stupid as trying to sell people "invisible money".

I'll leave the meme's to others ;)

It's not as stupid as trying to sell people "invisible money".

The thing with gold is that it's one of the best money laundering assets.

You can buy an acre in a gold mining area and then "make-appear" 100kg of gold that you ..."mined" from your ground.

And voila. Now you have 100kg x 40k $ = 4mn USD... all "mined" out of "the ground". Or so you say.

So if you have black money => you buy gold => you pretend that you mined it => you legalized your black money.

Gold is one of the very few cases that you can make money appear out of nowhere, in terms of accounting. That's a very useful - even irreplaceable quality. Most other types of assets or currencies have a trail.

Who would ever buy magical internet money that exists as a bunch of ones and zeros in a computer?

https://i.imgur.com/G2g28Qi.png

[...]

Any way, I'd like to not see altcoins dominated only by get quick rich and not some serious attempts to fix Bitcoin's flaws and create a large adoption market. But the more I think about this, the more I realize if that ever happens it will be largely outside of this forum. This forum is a gambler's paradise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpGbzYlnz7c#t=15). I need to remind myself that I we here are in an enclave (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo74Dn7W_pA).

Was there some relevance there to bad crypto, because I didn't see it?

Oh I get it. The same personal vendetta that has john-conner following me around like a stalker and posting off-topic personal attacks has you doing the same thing.

STEEM is the perfect bad crypto ...

I created this account just so these Monero drama queens stop putting shit on other people mouth, we know you hate DASH that much but at least quote Blad Zamfir right you piece of shit.

We don't need you're garbage drama and false quoting Vlad.

What are you working on as a Monero/Aeon developer Smooth?

Nothing related to bad crypto, as far as I know.

OK but what are you developing in Monero or Aeon as a developer? 

Both projects have an open development process and community. You are welcome to particulate. But both are also off topic here, so take your toxic forum trolling elsewhere.

Who decides what is bad crypto Monero shills by creating constant threads about other coins like TechorMarketing?

I am asking you now what are you working on as a developer because I have seen you here always; so in my mind he is a developer why he's here and not developing? If you going to answer with stop trolling again or this is not a proper thread to talk about it even thought you are Monero/Aeon Developer then i'll assume that you are basically not doing anything but chatting here in BTCtalk forum attacking all kinds of coins who have developers who actually doing something "It does not matter if you like it or not at least they are trying to make something".

Who decides what is bad crypto Monero shills by creating constant threads about other coins like TechorMarketing?

Peter Todd calls DASH "snake oil" and bad crypto:
* snake oil: https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/622022840330682368
* bad crypto: https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/622081863008436225
 
gmaxwell calls DASH harmful garbage and dysfunctional software:
* https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.msg10922949#msg10922949

Again, you're conflating metadata that requires your OSPEC to be on point and the network you are interacting with not to leek information with Monero's technology--so this is like blaming a car company for traffic accidents caused by the absence of a stop sign. The car company can only do so much, but in dash's case they forgot the airbags and brakes.

How much money was lost as a result of the DASH paper wallet faulty RNG (January 4th - April 5th, 2016)?

What was the damage caused by the recent fork?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1592314.0

And if CT is ever implemented for bitcoin itself then bitcoin will no longer be a tier 1 asset and no longer constitute viable money. (At least not in any sociological sense that could support its value).

Just for clarification, by "monetary tier", I meant this: If I use my bike as "money" to pay for something then the bike is the tier 1 money and the contract that says someone owns it is the tier 2 asset. The tier 2 asset can be obscured, burned, washed through the washing machine, without compromising the integrity or value of the tier 1 asset.

In crypto, obscured blockchains (such as CT) potentially have the job of record keeping and obscuring the ownership of a tier 1 asset (bitcoin). But they are not tier 1 assets in their own right (by virtue of being obscured).

https://i.imgur.com/gEOPCxP.png

https://i.imgur.com/CIrV7MI.png

Against the NSA yes I stand by the assertion that IP address correlation unmasks, overlapping rings unmask, etc. It all adds up if you are trying to hide from governments, then I don't trust Monero or any anonymous coin.

How much money was lost as a result of the DASH paper wallet faulty RNG.