Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Collectibles => Topic started by: dumbchump on July 11, 2016, 03:56:26 PM



Title: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 11, 2016, 03:56:26 PM
Anyone else seeing little dots on the back of a silver 1.0 hologram???  I've attached 3 pics of the coin.  

It has been in my safe for a long time and I pulled it out to take pics to auction it on here....but then noticed the dots.  They definitely were not on there when I purchased it or received it back from ANACS.

Thoughts anyone?!?



https://i.imgur.com/seXU9HF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kOKKl9Q.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J7CHl0j.jpg


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: miffman on July 11, 2016, 04:00:39 PM
Hmm...I wonder if it has to do with the adhesive of the hologram. If anything, I'm sure it won't loosen the hologram.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 11, 2016, 04:02:46 PM
Edit: can't get it to upload.
Please upload all pics to Imgur and set 'direct link'. Thanks :)

2nd edit to Hellot: I haven't had it happen to any of mine thankfully, slabbed and UG. Would be interested to know as well.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on July 11, 2016, 04:07:17 PM
I've noticed this on a few of my coins but not as much as yours.  No idea what caused it but would love it if Mike(Casascius) could chime in with his ideas.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on July 11, 2016, 04:14:32 PM
Could you actually circle the area where you noticed the dots @dumbchump?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 11, 2016, 04:23:19 PM
Could you actually circle the area where you noticed the dots @dumbchump?

Added another pic.  The circled area is just what comes up the best in the pic....but the back of the hologram has an even distribution of those dots.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 11, 2016, 04:23:57 PM
Could you actually circle the area where you noticed the dots @dumbchump?

It's actually quite obvious on the first and second picture if you zoom in.
Wonder what causes that? ??? humidity?
Location OP? US?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 11, 2016, 04:30:18 PM
Could you actually circle the area where you noticed the dots @dumbchump?

It's actually quite obvious on the first and second picture if you zoom in.
Wonder what causes that? ??? humidity?
Location OP? US?

US - midwest, in a safe most of the time....humidity controlled a/c the rest...it's odd and disappointing to say the least.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on July 11, 2016, 04:47:06 PM
Oh yeah I see them now.  :(


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: CanaryInTheMine on July 11, 2016, 04:58:51 PM
Some oxidation or a reaction over time perhaps?
I'd want to examine it under high magnification


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Xprim777 on July 11, 2016, 05:07:24 PM
Are you sure it's the hologram and not the capsule or the plastic around (which seems to have some dots too ) ? Never seen that before  ???


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 11, 2016, 05:15:58 PM
Are you sure it's the hologram and not the capsule or the plastic around (which seems to have some dots too ) ? Never seen that before  ???

Definitely seems to be the hologram. Here's a pic I've just taken of the exact same coin that I have, same year, same grade.
Not the best camera, but you can see the difference.

https://i.imgur.com/UUi6241.jpg


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Blazed on July 11, 2016, 05:17:35 PM
Are you sure it's the hologram and not the capsule or the plastic around (which seems to have some dots too ) ? Never seen that before  ???

It is the coin for sure. I have several that also have those dots all over them.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Xprim777 on July 11, 2016, 05:28:40 PM
Are you sure it's the hologram and not the capsule or the plastic around (which seems to have some dots too ) ? Never seen that before  ???

It is the coin for sure. I have several that also have those dots all over them.
Ok, I didn't know this was possible  :(


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: CanaryInTheMine on July 11, 2016, 06:04:43 PM
Are you sure it's the hologram and not the capsule or the plastic around (which seems to have some dots too ) ? Never seen that before  ???

It is the coin for sure. I have several that also have those dots all over them.
If you ever peel it, I'd love to analyze the residue that caused it..


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: OgNasty on July 11, 2016, 06:09:03 PM
If you look at the pics, you can see a similar dot pattern on the actual slab in the clear spots...  I'm wondering if this is some sort of reaction, or possibly residue from the slab getting on the coin hologram over time.  Maybe another downside to having coins graded?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: monkeynuts on July 11, 2016, 07:53:27 PM
I have also seen this on a few

I have only seen on a slabbed coin. And only with a series 3 holo silver coin. I would love to hear from anyone seeing this on none slabbed coins, or none silver coins

I cracked one of those slabs for inspection. It would appear that once present, that it's permanent, ie it wouldn't wipe off.

Would love to hear an explaination


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on July 11, 2016, 09:25:58 PM
I have also seen this on a few

I have only seen on a slabbed coin. And only with a series 3 holo silver coin. I would love to hear from anyone seeing this on none slabbed coins, or none silver coins

I cracked one of those slabs for inspection. It would appear that once present, that it's permanent, ie it wouldn't wipe off.

Would love to hear an explaination

How did u crack it? With pliers?

Also is it ANACS slabbed coins only?

Maybe ANACS adds something to the slab before putting it together?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: OgNasty on July 11, 2016, 09:31:17 PM
How did u crack it? With pliers?

I wouldn't mind seeing a cracking video.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: owlcatz on July 11, 2016, 09:41:56 PM
How did u crack it? With pliers?

I wouldn't mind seeing a cracking video.

Blazed posted this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1337933.msg13663930#msg13663930 .. Not sure if he ever posted the video though.



Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 11, 2016, 09:43:13 PM
How did u crack it? With pliers?

I wouldn't mind seeing a cracking video.

monkeynuts actually cracked my Gold Titan for me to go back for a second round of grading at ANACS. He used some grips, with the slab inside a plastic bag to prevent shattered plastic getting everywhere. Crack each corner bit by bit, and slowly prised the slab apart.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on July 11, 2016, 09:51:45 PM
Someone posted this on the IRC chat

How To Break a Coin Out of a Slab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49WSTeQt60c

Doesn't look too hard.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: hybridsole on July 11, 2016, 09:57:16 PM
Just checked mine as it is the same coin and also slabbed by ANACS.  No spots.  I live in a very humid area, so hopefully that's not a factor. 


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: monkeynuts on July 11, 2016, 10:03:03 PM
How did u crack it? With pliers?

I wouldn't mind seeing a cracking video.

monkeynuts actually cracked my Gold Titan for me to go back for a second round of grading at ANACS. He used some grips, with the slab inside a plastic bag to prevent shattered plastic getting everywhere. Crack each corner bit by bit, and slowly prised the slab apart.


As Z says, I used locking grips set at just less than the slab. Emphasis on crack rather than destroy. Less is more. Many small steps rather than one giant leap. Corners, then middles.

https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/hand-tools/locking-clamps-and-wrenches/255mm-10%22-sheet-plier-grip-wrench/p/SEN5587300K?utm_campaign=pla+-+&utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping-pla&utm_keyword=SEN5587300K&istCompanyId=6aa6787b-063e-4414-802d-129f235df603&istItemId=aqrxlmpxl&istBid=tztx


Other options I have read about are in a bench vice and then use a hacksaw (take the edges off, you can get away with 3). One of those small electric 'rotary tools' would also do the trick.
Its only the very edges that get bound by the resin

If your gonna do it, always practice with a low value slabbed coin first !! There is always risk associated. Reward has to be clear before doing it, generally an older graded coin.

CGS slabs are far more stubborn than ANACS (far more brittle, so more unpredictable).


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: monkeynuts on July 11, 2016, 10:12:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4pWpU3_qNw

Anyone fancy having a go at doing a redeemed Casascius coin ring .... ?

http://changeyoucanwear.net/product-category/non-silver-coin-rings/


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: OgNasty on July 11, 2016, 10:43:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4pWpU3_qNw

Anyone fancy having a go at doing a redeemed Casascius coin ring .... ?

http://changeyoucanwear.net/product-category/non-silver-coin-rings/

That would be cool.  I could maybe see sacrificing a peeled 5 BTC coin for this...


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Blazed on July 11, 2016, 10:45:33 PM
Cracking slabs is really easy... I have cracked 50+ and never had an issue. Just clip the bottom to corners off and use a flathead screwdriver to pry the slab open. Takes me roughly 30 seconds per slab.


Edit: here is a photo album of how I do it -> http://imgur.com/a/5AcTy (imgur screwed up the order)

Check out this batch..lol

https://i.imgur.com/LK786ZX.jpg


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on July 11, 2016, 11:17:22 PM
Thanks for the explanation monkeynuts and Blazed, not that I'm going to crack any slabs right now, but it could be useful one day LOL

So when you crack a ANACS slab which is numbered and registered on the site and makes up the population of a certain coin, that coin will still be on their site as graded even if outside its slab.
Does that mean that the population of them coins is not realistic?

I say this because in some cases certain coins are more valuable and sold at a premium because there's only 10 MS70 or 69, etc...
Or maybe there's 100 x MS 65.

What do you guys think?





Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: monkeynuts on July 11, 2016, 11:28:02 PM
ANACS pop reports just state what they have graded. You can only use them as the maximum number. Big shortfall

I have a 69 error coin. The slab was scratched. So I got them to reslab it. They gave it a new reference number. So the pop report says there are 2, wheresas its the same coin twice. ANACS wont amend the pop report. I have asked them. Luckily I had imaging done on both, so can prove this ...

So even when they do the reslabbing, the pop reprt is inaccurate, let alone if anyone cracks themselves and resubmits


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on July 11, 2016, 11:41:46 PM
ANACS pop reports just state what they have graded. You can only use them as the maximum number. Big shortfall

I have a 69 error coin. The slab was scratched. So I got them to reslab it. They gave it a new reference number. So the pop report says there are 2, wheresas its the same coin twice. ANACS wont amend the pop report. I have asked them. Luckily I had imaging done on both, so can prove this ...

So even when they do the reslabbing, the pop reprt is inaccurate, let alone if anyone cracks themselves and resubmits

Good to know, thanks for clarifying.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dazedfool on July 11, 2016, 11:44:54 PM
.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on July 11, 2016, 11:48:05 PM
I wonder if it is somehow related to the ring melting process.  I've only seen this on coins with ring melts.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dazedfool on July 11, 2016, 11:52:34 PM
I wonder if it is somehow related to the ring melting process.  I've only seen this on coins with ring melts.

Good point, I suppose that could be possible if the ring melting involves any significant/nonuniform heat transfer..


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on July 12, 2016, 12:46:57 AM
I wonder if it is somehow related to the ring melting process.  I've only seen this on coins with ring melts.

Good point, I suppose that could be possible if the ring melting involves any significant/nonuniform heat transfer..

I could see it being heat related or maybe how Mike held the coins in position during the melting process.  We'd need more info on that process and the equipment used.

So about your coin...  I expect the price will be marked down dramatically because of all the imperfections in the hologram, right dazed? :P


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dazedfool on July 12, 2016, 01:31:56 AM
I wonder if it is somehow related to the ring melting process.  I've only seen this on coins with ring melts.

Good point, I suppose that could be possible if the ring melting involves any significant/nonuniform heat transfer..

I could see it being heat related or maybe how Mike held the coins in position during the melting process.  We'd need more info on that process and the equipment used.

So about your coin...  I expect the price will be marked down dramatically because of all the imperfections in the hologram, right dazed? :P

Or is it an "error" that dramatically INCREASES the price?  8)


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: CanaryInTheMine on July 12, 2016, 01:35:40 AM
If they are sealed at ANACS when slabbed, I wonder if they use some binding  agent/glue to seal the slab under heat... That could cause some vapors inside that could have settled on the hologram and overtime chemicals reacted with material holo is made from...
It should be easy for ANACS to look into this...


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on July 12, 2016, 01:41:27 AM
I see some of the ANACS slabs have some sort of residue around the ring, thought it was glue or something but not sure how they are put together.

So we need a name for this...

Spotty Silvers?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on July 12, 2016, 01:43:37 AM
I wonder if it is somehow related to the ring melting process.  I've only seen this on coins with ring melts.

Good point, I suppose that could be possible if the ring melting involves any significant/nonuniform heat transfer..

I could see it being heat related or maybe how Mike held the coins in position during the melting process.  We'd need more info on that process and the equipment used.

So about your coin...  I expect the price will be marked down dramatically because of all the imperfections in the hologram, right dazed? :P

Or is it an "error" that dramatically INCREASES the price?  8)
 
HAHA! damnit


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 12, 2016, 01:53:08 AM
If they are sealed at ANACS when slabbed, I wonder if they use some binding  agent/glue to seal the slab under heat... That could cause some vapors inside that could have settled on the hologram and overtime chemicals reacted with material holo is made from...
It should be easy for ANACS to look into this...

I see some of the ANACS slabs have some sort of residue around the ring, thought it was glue or something but not sure how they are put together.

So we need a name for this...

Spotty Silvers?

Interesting info here.

http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/FAQServices.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1 (http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/FAQServices.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1)

Quote from: ANACS

Does ANACS make the plastic holders or do you have a company that does this for you?
All of the components for the new ANACS holder and the classic ANACS holder are manufactured for us. For security and proprietary reasons we do not release the names of these companies. One thing we definitely can tell you is that all components of the holder—the plastic, the label, the ink and the adhesives—have all been rigorously tested and are completely safe for your coins.



Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on July 12, 2016, 01:53:34 AM
Here's something from ANACS FAQ page:

Quote
What is PVC residue?
PVC residue is a surface contaminant that may be caused by storing a coin in a soft, pliable vinyl flip. The amount of time a coin needs to reside in a vinyl flip before the PVC film develops will vary significantly, depending on temperature, humidity, the age of the flip, and the type of coin. Under optimal conditions, PVC residue can begin to form in as little as two weeks. At ANACS, we only use Mylar flips. Mylar flips are free of all PVC.

The composition of a coin is a strong factor with the formation of PVC residue.

A gold or platinum coin will be the most resistant, a silver coin is next, and a copper or copper-nickel coin will be the most susceptible. Copper and copper-nickel coins are also highly susceptible to corrosion and/or spotting from excessive moisture and high emperatures. Due to this, collectors need to be extra careful with their choices of storage materials for these coins.

During the manufacturing process for soft vinyl flips, an agent is added to increase pliability. The main reason for this is to allow the flips to be reused without breaking or tearing. This softening agent will migrate out of the plastic over time, and becomes the surface film that is called “PVC Residue.” As this film continues to degrade, it eventually turns into a mild acid, and begins to attack the surface of the coin. Until the film is removed from the coin, it is usually not possible to tell if the coin has been damaged. Additionally, this chemical reaction can continue even if the coin is sealed in an inert plastic holder. This is why ANACS does not encapsulate coins with active PVC contamination.

Recognizing PVC residue is not always easy. When the residue begins to form, it often appears as light milky spots on the coin. PVC residue also appears as streaks or a light haze, and ranges from nearly white to dark green or gray. If the coin has enough contamination, and your sense of smell is good, you will detect an odor that imitates the smell of a new plastic shower curtain.

Where some of the Casascius coins shipped in a PVC holder? I don't know because I never bought directly.
What if they were stored in there until they got to ANACS and eventually they developed the spots after "enslabment"?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: owlcatz on July 12, 2016, 01:58:24 AM
Here's something from ANACS FAQ page:

Quote
What is PVC residue?
PVC residue is a surface contaminant that may be caused by storing a coin in a soft, pliable vinyl flip. The amount of time a coin needs to reside in a vinyl flip before the PVC film develops will vary significantly, depending on temperature, humidity, the age of the flip, and the type of coin. Under optimal conditions, PVC residue can begin to form in as little as two weeks. At ANACS, we only use Mylar flips. Mylar flips are free of all PVC.

The composition of a coin is a strong factor with the formation of PVC residue.

A gold or platinum coin will be the most resistant, a silver coin is next, and a copper or copper-nickel coin will be the most susceptible. Copper and copper-nickel coins are also highly susceptible to corrosion and/or spotting from excessive moisture and high emperatures. Due to this, collectors need to be extra careful with their choices of storage materials for these coins.

During the manufacturing process for soft vinyl flips, an agent is added to increase pliability. The main reason for this is to allow the flips to be reused without breaking or tearing. This softening agent will migrate out of the plastic over time, and becomes the surface film that is called “PVC Residue.” As this film continues to degrade, it eventually turns into a mild acid, and begins to attack the surface of the coin. Until the film is removed from the coin, it is usually not possible to tell if the coin has been damaged. Additionally, this chemical reaction can continue even if the coin is sealed in an inert plastic holder. This is why ANACS does not encapsulate coins with active PVC contamination.

Recognizing PVC residue is not always easy. When the residue begins to form, it often appears as light milky spots on the coin. PVC residue also appears as streaks or a light haze, and ranges from nearly white to dark green or gray. If the coin has enough contamination, and your sense of smell is good, you will detect an odor that imitates the smell of a new plastic shower curtain.

Where some of the Casascius coins shipped in a PVC holder? I don't know because I never bought directly.
What if they were stored in there until they got to ANACS and eventually they developed the spots after "enslabment"?


This almost makes sense. I only use their mylar flips from the link they provide, so hopefully my batch that has been sitting around for almost a  year I just sent in does ok.  ;)

Thanks everyone for the great info. Love it! :)


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dazedfool on July 12, 2016, 02:02:35 AM
PVC contamination could be a possibility, here's an NGC discussion on the topic: https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/1445/coin-holders-contain-PVC/


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on July 12, 2016, 02:05:12 AM
If it's outside contamination like that I would expect it to have pitting marks under magnification.  I'm not in a position to do that.  Anyone else?

Just to be clear, you would expect the surface of the hologram to be more resistant to external factors and the difference between flaws noticeable on the surface and flaws not noticeable on the surface to have very different consequences when considering cause.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on July 12, 2016, 02:07:46 AM
Do you guys remember having the coins in a PVC container before sending to grade?

That would be a good start for the ones of you that have the issue and sent the coins to grade yourselves.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: CanaryInTheMine on July 12, 2016, 03:32:31 AM
It's definitely not a PVC issue.  PVC isn't used in coin holders anymore, furthermore, the Silver coin would turn greenish.  Here the issue is on the holo.  It's most likely the adhesive vapors reacting with hologram materials.  The coin itself is free from issues, right?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 12, 2016, 07:12:54 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 12, 2016, 07:18:17 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 12, 2016, 07:34:59 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on July 12, 2016, 07:37:29 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)

I doubt it would go for less than 2BTC


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 12, 2016, 07:54:06 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)

I doubt it would go for less than 2BTC

Start it @ 1BTC You'd be surprised! Yes, this issue affects desirability, but it will still go for a hell of a lot more than 1BTC. I'll open the bidding if you wish.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dazedfool on July 12, 2016, 07:57:17 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)

1.25BTC BIN  ;D


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 12, 2016, 07:58:46 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)

1.25BTC BIN  ;D

Now now dazedfool.. ;D Don't start a bidding war before the auction has even started  ;D


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: CanaryInTheMine on July 12, 2016, 08:09:21 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)

I doubt it would go for less than 2BTC
Hmmmm.... I dunno... How do we know this issue doesn't extend to the private key?  I'd want to know the cause and effect on the coin.  What if the private key can't survive X number of years IFF the cause will keep spreading?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 12, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)

I doubt it would go for less than 2BTC
Hmmmm.... I dunno... How do we know this issue doesn't extend to the private key?  I'd want to know the cause and effect on the coin.  What if the private key can't survive X number of years IFF the cause will keep spreading?

That would be my concern too (as a buyer).  I'm not concerned about the private key today....but 10 years from now....who knows.

Also, I don't think it'll go for 2BTC....so I'll make that the BIN.  I'll think about value I'd want to keep it at...then start it at that price.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on July 12, 2016, 08:22:57 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)

I doubt it would go for less than 2BTC
Hmmmm.... I dunno... How do we know this issue doesn't extend to the private key?  I'd want to know the cause and effect on the coin.  What if the private key can't survive X number of years IFF the cause will keep spreading?

That would be my concern too (as a buyer).  I'm not concerned about the private key today....but 10 years from now....who knows.

Also, I don't think it'll go for 2BTC....so I'll make that the BIN.  I'll think about value I'd want to keep it at...then start it at that price.


So you are selling this for 2BTC?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 12, 2016, 08:29:11 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)

I doubt it would go for less than 2BTC
Hmmmm.... I dunno... How do we know this issue doesn't extend to the private key?  I'd want to know the cause and effect on the coin.  What if the private key can't survive X number of years IFF the cause will keep spreading?

That would be my concern too (as a buyer).  I'm not concerned about the private key today....but 10 years from now....who knows.

Also, I don't think it'll go for 2BTC....so I'll make that the BIN.  I'll think about value I'd want to keep it at...then start it at that price.


So you are selling this for 2BTC?

Sure, selling for 2BTC....with auction TBD.....escrow with reputable forum member and free shipping within US....worldwide shipping paid for by buyer based on actual cost.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on July 12, 2016, 08:34:09 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)

I doubt it would go for less than 2BTC
Hmmmm.... I dunno... How do we know this issue doesn't extend to the private key?  I'd want to know the cause and effect on the coin.  What if the private key can't survive X number of years IFF the cause will keep spreading?

That would be my concern too (as a buyer).  I'm not concerned about the private key today....but 10 years from now....who knows.

Also, I don't think it'll go for 2BTC....so I'll make that the BIN.  I'll think about value I'd want to keep it at...then start it at that price.


So you are selling this for 2BTC?

Sure, selling for 2BTC....with auction TBD.....escrow with reputable forum member and free shipping within US....worldwide shipping paid for by buyer based on actual cost.
 
I'll buy it for 2BTC.  Who do you want to use for escrow?  I'll pay extra for restricted delivery via USPS in this case.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 12, 2016, 08:37:14 PM
Since I brought it out of the safe to auction it....I might as well ask....anyone want to buy this thing, spots and all?

Why don't you try auction it? Spots and all, people would still bid on it if the price is right.

I was going to auction it with a starting price of 1.0btc.... that seems like a bad idea now...  I'll think about a minimum since it might go for 1.05 :)

I doubt it would go for less than 2BTC
Hmmmm.... I dunno... How do we know this issue doesn't extend to the private key?  I'd want to know the cause and effect on the coin.  What if the private key can't survive X number of years IFF the cause will keep spreading?

That would be my concern too (as a buyer).  I'm not concerned about the private key today....but 10 years from now....who knows.

Also, I don't think it'll go for 2BTC....so I'll make that the BIN.  I'll think about value I'd want to keep it at...then start it at that price.


So you are selling this for 2BTC?

Sure, selling for 2BTC....with auction TBD.....escrow with reputable forum member and free shipping within US....worldwide shipping paid for by buyer based on actual cost.
 
I'll buy it for 2BTC.  Who do you want to use for escrow?  I'll pay extra for restricted delivery via USPS in this case.

Really?  Okay.  I thought you were just messing with me.  I guess I misjudged the market.  PM sent about escrow details, etc.



Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on July 12, 2016, 08:50:02 PM
Just to put this in the public.  I offered to buy this coin for 2BTC but am fine if he decides to try and get more from an auction.  I guaranteed 2BTC for the coin no matter how that auction plays out. 


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 12, 2016, 08:56:55 PM
Just to put this in the public.  I offered to buy this coin for 2BTC but am fine if he decides to try and get more from an auction.  I guaranteed 2BTC for the coin no matter how that auction plays out. 

Yep, live and learn.  I'm content selling it for 2BTC so it looks like we are both happy.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on July 12, 2016, 09:07:55 PM
Just to put this in the public.  I offered to buy this coin for 2BTC but am fine if he decides to try and get more from an auction.  I guaranteed 2BTC for the coin no matter how that auction plays out. 

Yep, live and learn.  I'm content selling it for 2BTC so it looks like we are both happy.

Thanks for the good deal and for sending first.  Everyone else pay attention for this thread.  I will be imaging that hologram using a high power microscope on campus so we can see if the marks are on the hologram surface or subsurface.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on July 12, 2016, 09:08:14 PM
How do you know these coins are not going to turn into the very rare "Spotty coins".
Only few have been found so far.  :)


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dazedfool on July 12, 2016, 09:14:31 PM
Just to put this in the public.  I offered to buy this coin for 2BTC but am fine if he decides to try and get more from an auction.  I guaranteed 2BTC for the coin no matter how that auction plays out.  

Yep, live and learn.  I'm content selling it for 2BTC so it looks like we are both happy.

2BTC is fair if both sides are happy. Price is also close to market listings for type and grade. Ref ErikvanBreen's 2 @ 2.2BTC/ea... "spotless" tho

Any takers on a MS69 "spotted" goldie for 3BTC?  :D


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 12, 2016, 09:20:42 PM
Just to put this in the public.  I offered to buy this coin for 2BTC but am fine if he decides to try and get more from an auction.  I guaranteed 2BTC for the coin no matter how that auction plays out.  

Yep, live and learn.  I'm content selling it for 2BTC so it looks like we are both happy.

2BTC is fair if both sides are happy. Price is also close to market listings for type and grade. Ref ErikvanBreen's 2 @ 2.2BTC/ea... "spotless" tho

Any takers on a MS69 "spotted" goldie for 3BTC?  :D

I'll offer 2BTC  ;D
Hehehe.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 16, 2016, 01:02:28 PM
Anyone want to do some testing on what caused this?  It's a different issue than the casascius spotting but a hologram integrity issue nonetheless.  This a pic prior to redemption.  I peeled halfway and the private key was unaffected.

Pre-redemption:

https://i.imgur.com/AgA5mFe.jpg

Post-redemption:

https://i.imgur.com/e3Bl1c8.jpg


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 16, 2016, 01:08:42 PM
Anyone want to do some testing on what caused this?  It's a different issue than the casascius spotting but a hologram integrity issue nonetheless.  This a pic prior to redemption.  I peeled halfway and the private key was unaffected.

Pre-redemption:

https://i.imgur.com/AgA5mFe.jpg

Post-redemption:

https://i.imgur.com/e3Bl1c8.jpg

Damn, you're having some awfully bad luck with your coins ??? Is that a CryptoImperator hologram?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: dumbchump on July 16, 2016, 01:12:17 PM
No, it's a mircosoul.  I only took one pic (to show Gravitas) before I redeemed it....wish I took a better one.  At the time I didn't think too much about....but now it gives me concern for the rest of my physical coins...

Here is one on ebay...not mine.  The last pic is a good one of what the hologram should look like  :D

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Only-28-MicroSoul-Loaded-05-Silver-Bit-coin-654-Casascius-Physical-Rare-Coin-/122045527165?hash=item1c6a7af47d:g:NPgAAOSwM4xXcYJn


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: smoothie on July 16, 2016, 08:37:17 PM
I've had seen this with coins I had that I sold.

Nothing alarming to me about it. I got mine directly from Mike so perhaps it is an aging process?

Can't say I've seen anything like that with my holograms though.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: smoothie on July 16, 2016, 08:38:18 PM
To be clear there were "dots" but not as many as you have here nor as obviously viewable as in the images you shared.



Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: smoothie on July 16, 2016, 08:40:49 PM
If you look at the pics, you can see a similar dot pattern on the actual slab in the clear spots...  I'm wondering if this is some sort of reaction, or possibly residue from the slab getting on the coin hologram over time.  Maybe another downside to having coins graded?

The coins I had were never graded and these dots were on there.

I still think it is an aging process that causes them.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: smoothie on July 16, 2016, 08:59:53 PM
I wonder if it is somehow related to the ring melting process.  I've only seen this on coins with ring melts.

Good point, I suppose that could be possible if the ring melting involves any significant/nonuniform heat transfer..

I have coins I ring melted from my own collection safely stored and there is no spots despite melting the ring of the hologram.

Then again my holograms aren't 100% identical so not sure if it has to do with any number of factors.

Is it possible that the surface of the coin under the hologram is slightly different and would allow such a thing to happen to some coins and not others? That is a possibility.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: smoothie on July 16, 2016, 09:00:32 PM
I wonder if it is somehow related to the ring melting process.  I've only seen this on coins with ring melts.

Good point, I suppose that could be possible if the ring melting involves any significant/nonuniform heat transfer..

I could see it being heat related or maybe how Mike held the coins in position during the melting process.  We'd need more info on that process and the equipment used.

So about your coin...  I expect the price will be marked down dramatically because of all the imperfections in the hologram, right dazed? :P

He used an epilog mini, which I too have to laser coins/etc.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: smoothie on July 16, 2016, 09:02:52 PM
PVC contamination could be a possibility, here's an NGC discussion on the topic: https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/1445/coin-holders-contain-PVC/

This is likely not the case as the CASASCIUS coins I had resided in the plastic rolls Mike sent to me and were never stored in any other container and some still had those dots.

Pretty sure it aint PVC.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: vizique on July 16, 2016, 10:10:36 PM
When watching a video of Mike making the coins once, I saw bare hands/fingers being used to place the Holo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyzDY7NUOo
^^
your answer?

Seems the manufacturing process was NOT sterile - Note the upload date. Use this as a reference for coins where the holo is at issue. Coins around this period included ?


QUOTE
A short clip of applying holograms to Casascius physical bitcoins. Helpers are placing private keys from a jar onto the coins and also peeling the holograms onto transfer tape. Another helper puts the coins on a flatbed scanner for later identification and funding."

Thats a LOT of handling....

People have been so focussed on the Slabs and capsules yet it seems sensible to wind back to the very start of the creation process and look for early issues.
To the point that a coin has even yet to be struck. How were the blanks handled? How were they moved around? How many hands/fingers touched them throughout the lifecycle of creation? etc etc. Think like that and I believe you will find you answers far faster

No disrespect to Mike in any way, but he wasn't the Royal Mint. I would describe the process of his creating coins as semi pro hobby craft in the early days. Issues would easily creep in as appears to be the case with the early coins and their holos.




Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Zepher on July 16, 2016, 10:32:52 PM
When watching a video of Mike making the coins once, I saw bare hands/fingers being used to place the Holo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyzDY7NUOo
^^
your answer?

Seems the manufacturing process was NOT sterile - Note the upload date. Use this as a reference for coins where the holo is at issue. Coins around this period included ?


QUOTE
A short clip of applying holograms to Casascius physical bitcoins. Helpers are placing private keys from a jar onto the coins and also peeling the holograms onto transfer tape. Another helper puts the coins on a flatbed scanner for later identification and funding."

Thats a LOT of handling....

People have been so focussed on the Slabs and capsules yet it seems sensible to wind back to the very start of the creation process and look for early issues.
To the point that a coin has even yet to be struck. How were the blanks handled? How were they moved around? How many hands/fingers touched them throughout the lifecycle of creation? etc etc. Think like that and I believe you will find you answers far faster

No disrespect to Mike in any way, but he wasn't the Royal Mint. I would describe the process of his creating coins as semi pro hobby craft in the early days. Issues would easily creep in as appears to be the case with the early coins and their holos.




I like your thinking viz. The amount of times coins must have been handled back then whilst going through the assembly process must be high. These were not that valuable back then, so I can see why this happened. This occurrence of spots may very well be because of oils and residue left behind after assembling.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: vizique on July 16, 2016, 10:47:36 PM
The manufacture of Silver coins appears to mark a change in some of the processes as Mike clearly didn't want blemishes on the nice shiny silver coins. As such, manufacturing appears to have had a more thoughtful sequence where handling is concerned and the related issues would have been mitigated by gloves and better processes. Maybe Mike could qualify the above?

Just my 2 cents


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: smoothie on July 17, 2016, 12:36:19 AM
When watching a video of Mike making the coins once, I saw bare hands/fingers being used to place the Holo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyzDY7NUOo
^^
your answer?

Seems the manufacturing process was NOT sterile - Note the upload date. Use this as a reference for coins where the holo is at issue. Coins around this period included ?


QUOTE
A short clip of applying holograms to Casascius physical bitcoins. Helpers are placing private keys from a jar onto the coins and also peeling the holograms onto transfer tape. Another helper puts the coins on a flatbed scanner for later identification and funding."

Thats a LOT of handling....

People have been so focussed on the Slabs and capsules yet it seems sensible to wind back to the very start of the creation process and look for early issues.
To the point that a coin has even yet to be struck. How were the blanks handled? How were they moved around? How many hands/fingers touched them throughout the lifecycle of creation? etc etc. Think like that and I believe you will find you answers far faster

No disrespect to Mike in any way, but he wasn't the Royal Mint. I would describe the process of his creating coins as semi pro hobby craft in the early days. Issues would easily creep in as appears to be the case with the early coins and their holos.




If this was the case for his 2013 silver coins then there would be noticeable finger prints on the coins which there werent.

When dealing with silver coins it is difficult to apply the entire process without adding finger prints to the silver coins without using gloves.

Brass not so much (even though I tend to use gloves for those as well).

It would seem the finger print issue is not the cause of it as it would be obviously visible on the surface of his silver coins from 2013.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: vizique on July 17, 2016, 08:43:57 AM
When watching a video of Mike making the coins once, I saw bare hands/fingers being used to place the Holo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyzDY7NUOo
^^
your answer?

Seems the manufacturing process was NOT sterile - Note the upload date. Use this as a reference for coins where the holo is at issue. Coins around this period included ?


QUOTE
A short clip of applying holograms to Casascius physical bitcoins. Helpers are placing private keys from a jar onto the coins and also peeling the holograms onto transfer tape. Another helper puts the coins on a flatbed scanner for later identification and funding."

Thats a LOT of handling....

People have been so focussed on the Slabs and capsules yet it seems sensible to wind back to the very start of the creation process and look for early issues.
To the point that a coin has even yet to be struck. How were the blanks handled? How were they moved around? How many hands/fingers touched them throughout the lifecycle of creation? etc etc. Think like that and I believe you will find you answers far faster

No disrespect to Mike in any way, but he wasn't the Royal Mint. I would describe the process of his creating coins as semi pro hobby craft in the early days. Issues would easily creep in as appears to be the case with the early coins and their holos.



If this was the case for his 2013 silver coins then there would be noticeable finger prints on the coins which there werent.

When dealing with silver coins it is difficult to apply the entire process without adding finger prints to the silver coins without using gloves.

Brass not so much (even though I tend to use gloves for those as well).

It would seem the finger print issue is not the cause of it as it would be obviously visible on the surface of his silver coins from 2013.

I covered the Silvers above by acknowledging that they appear to have marked a change in process of manufacture. However, manual handling of the Priv key AND the holo,  by multiple persons, appears NOT to have changed (Mike can clarify?). So even if the Silver coins are treated and handled with utmost care AND with gloves, the keys and holos were not, ergo the perfect entry point for chemicals.
If two persons body grease/sweat mix it can create additional chemicals which can have a noticeable impact. This is well known.

In light of the video itself, I believe there's now compelling evidence indicating that the manual elements of production are a very likely contender for being the cause of the issues currently being faced by Coin owners.

Again, I think Mike is probably the one best placed to highlight production issues of the time.

What  was the humidity in the room like?
Room Temperature?
Were people hot/warm/cold while working?
Had the room been recently decorated?
Had anyone had pizza that day, afternoon, evening? (you get the idea)


There are so many variables possible during production that, if you have satisfied yourselves that the slabs absolutely cannot be the issue, then by axiom the creation process MUST play a more significant part in the investigation.

Currently, all evidence points to production as the weak point and most likely cause of dots and spotting. It may be the Holos themselves at the point of THEIR manufacture.
Am I correct in thinking that the paper used for priv keys was removed from the list of culprits?
Viz


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: smoothie on July 17, 2016, 09:58:09 AM
When watching a video of Mike making the coins once, I saw bare hands/fingers being used to place the Holo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyzDY7NUOo
^^
your answer?

Seems the manufacturing process was NOT sterile - Note the upload date. Use this as a reference for coins where the holo is at issue. Coins around this period included ?


QUOTE
A short clip of applying holograms to Casascius physical bitcoins. Helpers are placing private keys from a jar onto the coins and also peeling the holograms onto transfer tape. Another helper puts the coins on a flatbed scanner for later identification and funding."

Thats a LOT of handling....

People have been so focussed on the Slabs and capsules yet it seems sensible to wind back to the very start of the creation process and look for early issues.
To the point that a coin has even yet to be struck. How were the blanks handled? How were they moved around? How many hands/fingers touched them throughout the lifecycle of creation? etc etc. Think like that and I believe you will find you answers far faster

No disrespect to Mike in any way, but he wasn't the Royal Mint. I would describe the process of his creating coins as semi pro hobby craft in the early days. Issues would easily creep in as appears to be the case with the early coins and their holos.



If this was the case for his 2013 silver coins then there would be noticeable finger prints on the coins which there werent.

When dealing with silver coins it is difficult to apply the entire process without adding finger prints to the silver coins without using gloves.

Brass not so much (even though I tend to use gloves for those as well).

It would seem the finger print issue is not the cause of it as it would be obviously visible on the surface of his silver coins from 2013.

I covered the Silvers above by acknowledging that they appear to have marked a change in process of manufacture. However, manual handling of the Priv key AND the holo,  by multiple persons, appears NOT to have changed (Mike can clarify?). So even if the Silver coins are treated and handled with utmost care AND with gloves, the keys and holos were not, ergo the perfect entry point for chemicals.
If two persons body grease/sweat mix it can create additional chemicals which can have a noticeable impact. This is well known.

In light of the video itself, I believe there's now compelling evidence indicating that the manual elements of production are a very likely contender for being the cause of the issues currently being faced by Coin owners.

Again, I think Mike is probably the one best placed to highlight production issues of the time.

What  was the humidity in the room like?
Room Temperature?
Were people hot/warm/cold while working?
Had the room been recently decorated?
Had anyone had pizza that day, afternoon, evening? (you get the idea)


There are so many variables possible during production that, if you have satisfied yourselves that the slabs absolutely cannot be the issue, then by axiom the creation process MUST play a more significant part in the investigation.

Currently, all evidence points to production as the weak point and most likely cause of dots and spotting. It may be the Holos themselves at the point of THEIR manufacture.
Am I correct in thinking that the paper used for priv keys was removed from the list of culprits?
Viz

I agree it boils down to two categories of factors (with numerous variables):

1. The assembly process

2. the holograms themselves were slightly made different in production in terms of quality consistency etc.

If I had to guess it sounds more like an aging process of the coins as I remember opening up my roll when I initially got them and never saw one of those dots until many months later.

This is my own personal experience with the coins I am sharing and am in no way claiming to be an expert at all. All I can do is speak from my experience with Mike's coins as well as my experience with dealing with holograms on my own coins that are months and years old which have not had that issue.

Obviously something is different, what that is to me is a mystery thus far.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: vizique on July 17, 2016, 10:55:44 AM
..snip (WoT)

I agree it boils down to two categories of factors (with numerous variables):

1. The assembly process

2. the holograms themselves were slightly made different in production in terms of quality consistency etc.

If I had to guess it sounds more like an aging process of the coins as I remember opening up my roll when I initially got them and never saw one of those dots until many months later.

This is my own personal experience with the coins I am sharing and am in no way claiming to be an expert at all. All I can do is speak from my experience with Mike's coins as well as my experience with dealing with holograms on my own coins that are months and years old which have not had that issue.

Obviously something is different, what that is to me is a mystery thus far.

It will be interesting to see then, in the coming months and years ahead, how Holo's generally fair across the range of physical coins that were subsequently made after Mike made the process public.

The variables are indeed many and hopefully, as time moves on, there will be a or some common factors arising that may enable a clearer idea of what is causing these issues :)



Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: naypalm on July 21, 2016, 03:50:37 PM
I always assumed that gold or silver would eventually become discolored from the acid in the adhesive. Strange how it only took 2-3 years for it to start voiding itself. Maybe compressing the holo side will help prevent this?


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: nubbins on July 21, 2016, 05:44:02 PM
TBH my first thought upon seeing this is that the adhesive is oxidizing the silver.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: Hellot on August 10, 2016, 10:44:02 PM
This coin is now in the hands of someone with actual brains and access to a high powered Laica microscope that can capture pretty images.  I have looked at the holo under power and it is interesting!  Here is the tentative plan:
 
- We will be imagine the holo monthly for the next 3-6 months to ascertain if the marks are growing in size\population or if they are static.
- Once we have observed the marks over time we are going to peel it and image the marks under the holo as best we can.
- We will import the private key to confirm the coin is authentic(it looks real to me).

At some point I expect to be posting high quality images, I can tell you the images I have seen are very good, under power you can see that the marks look exactly like the letters "ONE BITCOIN" on the holo, as if whatever process made the one bitcoin letters may have been responsible for the marks we see.  I can say at this point the marks are under the surface of the hologram.

I'll update as I learn more and when I get images, they are currently in a file format not suitable for posting.


Title: Re: Casascius hologram issue
Post by: coin@coin on August 11, 2016, 03:31:28 AM
This coin is now in the hands of someone with actual brains and access to a high powered Laica microscope that can capture pretty images.  I have looked at the holo under power and it is interesting!  Here is the tentative plan:
 
- We will be imagine the holo monthly for the next 3-6 months to ascertain if the marks are growing in size\population or if they are static.
- Once we have observed the marks over time we are going to peel it and image the marks under the holo as best we can.
- We will import the private key to confirm the coin is authentic(it looks real to me).

At some point I expect to be posting high quality images, I can tell you the images I have seen are very good, under power you can see that the marks look exactly like the letters "ONE BITCOIN" on the holo, as if whatever process made the one bitcoin letters may have been responsible for the marks we see.  I can say at this point the marks are under the surface of the hologram.

I'll update as I learn more and when I get images, they are currently in a file format not suitable for posting.

Oh WOW that is awesome. Would be very interesting to find out more. Also intriguing that the marks are actually under the hologram...
Keep us posted and thanks for sharing. :)