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Wafer 1 was ONLY, 1.76w/GH. ONLY. That still means the jalapeno doesn't exist, and the minirig uses 2640 watts. They knew this a month ago, and said the problem wasn't with the chips, it was with the test rig, then the problem wasn't with the chips, it was with the boards. Everything he said today counters The update from a month ago(yeah, it really has been a month).


1. A month ago he said they processed 5 wafers, now he says they're waiting for the third wafer
2. So the test wafer ran at 1.76w/GH only running 4 engines, and only running at 350mhz. How could they not expect higher power usage when running more than 4 engines, and running at 500mhz.
3. again, saying the second set of 6 wafers, when they only processed 1 wafer out of the first set of 6?

1/4 of the chip at 70% clockrate used 1.76w/GH.

MODS, may as well just throw this post in "BFL FUCKS US OVER AGAIN".


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150803.0

LOL. That's a meager 0.2 GHash per Watt. Remember, Josh "Loudmouth" Zerlan, when you mocked Avalon because of their high power usage? Now it turns out your ASICS are not better.


http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/k9l5-1h-9a11.jpg

 I wanted to bet at announcement day that 300MH/s will be max what they can achieve.... They laughed, now I'm laughing ;)

omg this whole charade from BFL is so funny....

BFL's value as a company is the entertainment they produce. They may as well be a sitcom, broadway musical, or full fledged movie production in the comedy genre.

OMFG ROFL!  :D

But I thought BFL was shipping?

http://www.esa.org/esablog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/locusts.jpg

I believe the phrase is a day late and a dollar short.  BFL is 150 days late and many watts short of their promised targets when customers were preordering items.

It always seemed strange to me that even before the ASICs were manufactured, BFL was busy creating plastic cases and shipping boxes.  Now all that is useless and wasted money since the Jalapeno is not going to look like the promised product.

Looks like BFL is having too many assumptions and not enough facts.

+1 carriage before horse?

BFL had a previousy bad record about delivery of FPGAs.
Did you really believed that with  ASICs (much harder ASICs) would be any better?
i am still hoping that they deliver oneday :)

You're way out..

The Little Single prototype was 160w/25GH/s = 6.4w/GH. So a 1500GH/s Mini Rig SC would need 60x LS units = 9600 watts!  ;)

It looks like it will be about 2x as power efficient as the Avalon (assuming it was real and not just a FPGA Mini Rig doing the mining).

I'm on my way to the trademark office to register "ComedyCoin".

Worst of all is that they are making exactly the same mistakes with FPGAs.
If you have overheating problems, admit your mistake, redesigns the pcb with one or two asics, changes a functional box with oversized heatsinksink, do not ridicule.

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7416/singlesh.jpg

 :D

Clearly BFL did.

"Honest Abe".

BFL's plan B
http://staciesmoretaxtips.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/accountant-2520old2.jpg

Best caption wins! EDIT: I found a caption.

http://www.humorlaugh.com/pictures/7_funny_donkey_pictures/1088-funny0152.jpg

New speed and pricing  ???

https://i.imgur.com/xeztESh.png

I thought that image was 'shopped. But no, that image is for real!

Oh, look, they won't specify power usage anymore. WTG BFL.

What the flying...

That is actually for real.

https://products.butterflylabs.com/

https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage/25-gh-s-bitcoin-miner.html (https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage/25-gh-s-bitcoin-miner.html)


As usual; Still bullshit.

Yet the home page still (as of this writing) has a link to pre-order the 60 GH/s BitForce Single SC for $1299.

Well at least they confirm they lost all previous bets on delivery...

https://i.imgur.com/xeztESh.png

Somebody explain to me how an item not yet built can be out of stock.

Actually, I prefer this one:
 
https://products.butterflylabs.com/60gh-bitcoin-miner.html (https://products.butterflylabs.com/60gh-bitcoin-miner.html)

Cheaper than a 25 Ghash/s !  ;D

I'm wrong. It's $50 more expensive than a 25 Ghash/s  ;D

 :o wtf ?

Just add it to your Wish List.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8244/8619902116_3932f35f4b_z.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xeztESh.png

Oddly, they're changing the page now. https://products.butterflylabs.com/60gh-bitcoin-miner.html

I don't think they can deliver 50 GH/s in the form factor they are showing.  Actually, it's doubtful the 25 GH/s will work thermally either.

There will be more rounds of back-tracking before a product is shipped.

I bet if they put the Single motherboard in the box of fans, that'll be fine.

Something tells me somebody at BFL monitors this forum, of which they are all on record to loath, for they sure got onto this issue quickly. Compare images taken about five minutes apart and only minutes after it was revealed.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8400/8619921592_0a3d7d44ce_z.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8244/8619902116_3932f35f4b_z.jpg

It's the power density on that board that will be the problem.  I don't want to be more specific than that because I wouldn't want to disillusion Josh about his imaginings on how I have a job with Intel.

An aquarium with mineral oil is about their only option. And that is really really messy.

Like magic, when you add to the chain no electricity (read overhead cost) is used. Why even use a USB cable when the units can simply just talk to one another?

Out of curiosity, why do you say that the power density on the 25GH/s board will be too high? Even if they end up at 3J/GH that's still less power than their FPGA Single which has pretty much exactly the same form factor?

Or are you talking more about the power density of the substrate or die itself?

Oh, damn. the minirig is out of stock, thankfully, the other 3 are in stock, order now!

edit:

This was supposed to be a joke, but i was only 1gh/s off.
https://i.imgur.com/o6QHvEa.jpg

That just PROVES BoB did the right thing.   BFL must have been shipping to be completely sold out of minirigs.
LMFAO

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.0


And for those who made profitable bits on the outcome--DRAW!

That one was actually about the FPGAs, Phinn.

I see my error now. Thanks, GH. And thanks for directing me to the InstaWallet thread, albeit I was only two days behind.

Now they've changed the Jalapeno to 5 Gh/$274. Can't seem to make up their mind, lol.

Somewhere in KC are two guys with a chicken in front of a computer laughing their motherfuckin' asses off.

"Hey early orders, we will give you a discount!"

"Oh, to make up for that discount, we will need to increase prices by 100%"

Sigh...

I seem to have missed the bankruptcy warnings in their new update. :p Every time ASICMiner talks about shipping hardware BFL mysteriously grabs headlines.

This scam is closing in on zero hour IMO.

Hah, this makes it even more awesome. You can't use your early order discount until you recieve your order. They double prices and lower specs before the ship anything. A massive fuck you to investors who loaned them millions of dollars for 9 months.

They've promised to deliver the rated hashrate to customers, so a 25GH/s Little Single plus a 5GH/s Jalapeno would satisfy that, as would a 50GH/s Single plus two Jalapenos.

Their promises have been anything but bankable to date.

Nailed it.

Order now and we'll thrown in a free 2nd Jalapeno for only $19.99 ...!   

That's 2000 GH/s for only three easy payments of $199.99... !

This offer won't last long so order now!

I'll sell someone my discount! It's worth double now!

Actually the "discount" is worth 50% less...............its based on the OLD prices,so my 25% on $650 (30GH unit) is still $162.Now instead of $162 off $1300 its off of $2500.

Very disappointed........................................

Yup, you're right. The discount dollar amount remains the same since it was based on what was originally paid. The discount is still the same even though the price of the machine increased.

Unreal.

yes.  too many watts in too small a space

Sorry, too many watts in too small a space for the PCB/enclosure, or too many watts out of a 56mm^2 die?

GOOD POINT MAKING PEOPLE THINK THEY ARE ON THE LAST STAGES. UMMMM

Dio mascio, that news of shit  :-\ :-X

 ;D

They are still advertising the old bfl models even on this website...

My uneducated guess would be is they realized that they won't be able to build it. Too hot, over 9000watt power consumption... So out of stock means they won't be making it. So those who bought it will either get equivalent in Japapeños + SC singles  ;D
or simply quietly get refund those people. Or maybe in the fall they will come up with such device... Anyone else have their guesses?

My maths brain's not working this morning.  The mini-rig was going to contain 192 boards of 8 chips.  Given that the chips/boards aren't performing as anticipated, how many of the sub-spec chips/boards will it take to make up 1500 GH and what will the power draw be?  Is the total wattage going to create issues for people (I'm on 240 v with 20 amp circuits but I know that the standard maximum load per circuit is different for those on lower voltages)?

It appears as though their chips are the problem so power consumption could be as high as 7.5w/Gh. That'd be a nuclear power plant like 11250w @ 1500Gh, but I've seen people estimate as "low" as 9000w. Yes that will definitely be a problem.

I noticed Josh saying that they'll ship whatever it takes to achieve hashrate and I also noticed him saying that people would have the option of waiting for gen 2 if they didn't want sub-spec units, but I haven't noticed anyone from BFL saying that people can have refunds if neither of those options are acceptable.  Did I just miss it or has it not been said?

The minirig was to contain 24 boards with 8 chips each for 192 chips in total.
Latest from Josh is that they were able to get a board working at 34GH/s using 150W, so 4.4J/GH at the current time. They claim to be able to be able to get that down further, but that remains to be seen. If they can't they'd likely have to split a single Minirig up into multiple units, possibly 3 or 4 depending on how low they can get the power.

All I know for sure is that they added that nonsense about "all sales are final", though I'd give them a quarter if their policy withstood even a weak legal challenge. Trapping people into non-refundable pre-orders while failing to deliver on any specs or shipping dates is...somewhat inconsistent with FTC & consumer protection regs.

Edit: Thanks for the update Teal. 6600w is still a problem though and just splitting it into two "little" minirigs might make it possible to plug it into a deadicated circuit, but it doesn't improve profitability.

They put that on the website a month or so back and a couple of people reported asking for a refund and being told by Jody that refunds were now on a case by case basis as all sales were final (a stark contrast to her "we understand if you can't stay the distance and will be happy to give you a refund" statement of last year).

If I had to guess, I'd say that they wanted to minimise the possibility of people cancelling their orders and requesting refunds once they were committed to the bulk order for 63,000 chips (and however many corresponding boards).

It seems really unlikely that their "all sales are final" statement would have any legal validity under the circumstances, especially as "two months or more" is so vague.  If the customer agreed to a specific delivery date which was months in the future, it might be different, but essentially they're trying to say we'll deliver "whenever".

Of course the legality or otherwise of them taking pre-orders, saying "all sales are final", delivering a product which is materially different than what was promised, etc is pretty irrelevant unless people choose to take action under whatever consumer protection laws are available to them - something people are likely to do only if BFL starts refusing refunds en masse.

Personally, I find the lack of communication from BFL staff other than Josh appalling.  When a project goes this wrong, there should be public statements and reassurances from the GM, the CEO, etc - it shouldn't all be left to the COO who is already trying to answer 1001 questions regarding matters where he doesn't even have direct knowledge.  In my opinion, BFL has let Josh down badly and it's about time that some of their other executive staff stepped up and took some responsibility here.  Half the time I get the impression that Josh has been kept in the dark and fed bullshit just as much as customers.

Both of you have valid points.   The problem is that the people they have ripped off are not acting rationally.   They do not want to see any of the facts, only the riches that are coming to them.... This is a classic in MLM and pyramid schemes.   They victim does not want to "give up his place" as it now has a perceived value to him.   A good way to stop the ponzi from falling apart is to RAISE price.  That makes the people already fleeced perceive that their "position" or place in line is EVEN more valuable.   Go over and read the shoutbox at BFL and tell me if the people discussing there will not be in a pysch 101 textbook someday.....   "wow, this price increase just made my July order EVEN MORE valuable"....

didnt BFL ship a few days ago?

yes, apparently they completely shipped all the MiniRigs that were available.  just in case, this is extreme sarcasm......

Agreed, I think that's precisely what they've done. Also they've effectively negated the discounts of those silly vouchers being given to those early investors as compensation for BFL's scammy behavior.

So, tell me.   Why do you think none of these people will do anything about it?   There is more than enough information on public forms typed by Josh himself to convict him of federal and state crimes.  Sonny is in clear violation of his parole.   It would be simple for any of them to hire an attorney for and less than $5,000 FORCE the authorities in KS/MO and the US attorney to press charges.   Why don't they?  I personally do not care.   I was going to buy some miniRigs (until I spent 2 hours on the web looking things up) so now I am just the curious on looker.   Do you REALLY believe that none of these people have figure out they have been taken?   Even in the best case scenario, they were de-frauded out of money to fund a venture to make a bunch of amateurs rich.   Why don't any of them do anything?   Nasser could be likely be charged in france (and definitely in the US) if he actually works for Soc Gen.   And, Soc Gen would get fined for lack of compliance over him.   Sonny could get back to club fed.   Josh could be charged by the SEC and by Revenue (I would be more worried about Revenue as they have a 100% conviction rate).   All, these state and fed prosecutors want to make names for themselves and what a better way than to bust some scam in "bitcoin" the newest headline (which they want to discredit anyway).    So, why do all of them do nothing?

Everyone wants to stay behind their computer and bitch on an internet forum.

No authority is going to do anything because Bitcoin is considered "game money" so to speak.I got hacked for 38BTC @ Mtgox a year ago,went to a sheriff  I know in my hometown & bounced the idea of filing a report about my loss.He just had a funny look & asked "what's a Bitcoin??"................................................

Interesting.   You have an "untrustworthy" label under your name.   Like early america's scarlet letter?
Did not see that under Josh nor Inaba's name.  Does that mean you are LESS worthy of my trust than they are?   This is a very interesting little village you have here.

And no-one cares if BFL is shady as hell as long as there's a chance that BFL might eventually ship a product which makes them easy money.


You should probably have filed a report with one of the various computer crime units.  These types of crimes don't really seem to fall within the operations of local law enforcement.  We already know that various federal agencies are aware of Bitcoin (and many of them are responsible for prosecuting various computer based crimes), so they're probably the best bet for reporting stuff.

That doesn't wash though. BFL like BTCFPGA accepted credit card payments. The "authorities" do take wire fraud seriously.

I do not know why more people tolerate BFL's scammy bs. If you search my posts you'll find I've asked the same questions many times. One fella has been in contact with the AG's office and presented evidence of said contact, but I think he let it go after a point.

Yeah,its a different scenario for a company,than an individual.My bad on not making the correlation clear.

As far as reporting to the CCU,BTC was around $5 at the time,just wasn't worth going that far then.

He was refunded and it was for like $129.   BUT, the AG DID take it seriously especially the part about SONNY.   When he was refunded, he was no longer a victim.   Now if the same office had 10-20 more of these people who could not get refunds, they would push HARDER.   But, that is why BFL will continue to give refunds.  Because they HAVE TO OR THEY WILL FIND THEMSELVES IN JAIL.   And they know it.   The best thing for BTC in the long run is if all these people would push for refunds and push BFL into chapter 11 or 7 (assuming they even file).   And, then just let it disappear without MSM coverage.  

The reddit thread about this is full of people happy about the fact that their BFL units are now "worth twice as much".   :o

I know, I was reading that.   It is very interesting, isn't it?   It is like some university pysch dept doing a study.....

I GOT 2 X 60 SORRY 50 GH SINGLES  DELIVERY IN [[[JULY]]]] SO THEY SAY!!
ANY ONE INTRESTED $4500 IN BITCOINS OF COARSE

You can bet 100BTC that "all sales are final" has 0 legal validity taken into account the current BFL preorder scam scheme

What is it that P.T. Barnum said?

Here's looking at you, P.T.!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171018610507?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

They probably figure that they can sell their sub-spec units for more than they paid for them and pass the risk on to someone else.

What vouchers are you talking about?

If BFL is a long con, they've put insane amount of effort into it. Especially in the field of even attempting to provide evidence there is progress etc. and other kind of public appearances.

People who ordered in the first month get a discount voucher to "compensate" them for the delay in delivery.  They need to use it within 60 days.  If I recall correctly, it's for 25% of their original order value up to some maximum I can't remember (so if you bought a mini-rig you can't use the discount to get a free single).  I think people who ordered in the second month get a 10% discount.

Where's more info about this?
I did make a order for little single in July ...

And it's gone!


I learnt they use Magento Store.

How about this one? https://products.butterflylabs.com/hdmijaijwo3625sqpkc0953nxoq540md.html

Now that we've brought it their attention, it'll be down soon.

Let's assume worst case scenario BFL takes our money and runs.  Is there any chance we can get our money back in that situation?  Through any intermediary?

So if I bought a jalapeño in Sep what you do I get ?

4.5G?
5?

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1037-discount-voucher-policy.html

People are also being offered the option of taking the sub-spec units or waiting until there's a revised unit with the problems solved but you need to contact BFL if you want to wait for the revision.

Do a little research and see how much all the people that sonny scammed got back.   you can expect 1000x that amount.

I don't understand what you mean

If things go wrong, BFL will declare bankruptcy.  Then the remaining assets will be distributed to creditors by a trustee, if there are any assets remaining.  Your chance of recovering your full "pre-order" in this event is extremely unlikely.

There is a reason that the FTC Consumer Protection division has "prompt delivery" rules.  Know your rights.  If the delay is longer than 30 days or indefinite, you are to be promptly refunded unless you have agreed that the delay is acceptable.

If you are having issues obtaining a refund from BFL, you may file a complaint with the FTC here:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=en (https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=en)

Without even doing the research, I'd say the people Sonny scammed got back 0, so the joke is 1000x that amount would be...0.

the founder of BFL sonny vledsiedes (spelling is wrong), the guy convicted of scamming old people on a fake lottery ticket scam that is on parole and now collecting pre-order money from people like you.   How much did his victims (the retired people now eating canned dog food to survive) get back?   You should get 10X or 100X that amount.   

It's also extremely likely that any actual investors in BFL have ensured that they are secured creditors and would have priority claims over those of customers who pre-ordered.

Dargo!!!!   Riddles are not fun if you give away the punch line.   How many greeks are there working at BFL?   Where is Josh in all those pictures of him on the web?   Has anyone asked Luke how many people he saw at BFL that seemed to be employees?

WTF is this? Are they actually going to FUCK all those pre-orders and try to scam more money out of people. Seriousy, if you ordered an SC for $1300 rated for 60 GH/s what the hell would you really get? ANYTHING? Dude, before they even come out with a proto-type they are already changing the product line up? Total failure here. Seriously.

There's no point having lots of employees if none of them are smart enough to design a board that doesn't overheat.

Definitely saving this link for my last refund that I have on a group buy.

That's so they don't have to honor long-term warranties. The pre-orders were all for Jalapenos, Little SCs, SCs, and MiniRigs and come with "lifetime" warranties. Lifetime being as long as the product is in production. Now there's a new line of products. All those "lifetime" warranties are now 1-year warranties.

But my dad ordered two SC's. He decided to pre-order them from the specifications on the product. 60GH/S was the specs. How are they going to send him two 60 GH/S units when they only make a 50GH/S?

They're honouring the advertised hashrate on old orders, even if they have to make up the difference by shipping multiple 30 GH units or throwing in some jalapenos.  It's new orders which will be buying a 50 GH unit (presumably because it's not cost effective for them to resolve the problem and produce a 60 GH unit).

Originally, they said that people could choose to wait for MK II if they didn't want to accept the existing units.  Not sure if that offer is still on the table given that the MK II units won't have the same hashrate as MK I.

Opentoe:
They also have working prototype(s), atleast according to BFL Josh/Inaba and Luke JR, who is independent developer (BFGMiner)
They indeed have promised to honor the sold hash rate, i would assume they will make it up with Jalapenos or multiple unit shipping. Which actually is good -> Multiple units is higher resiliency. For example if they give 2xLittle SC for those who ordered Single SC, if another fails, you only loose 50% instead of 100% of hash rate.

Dissecting the higher pricing

The effects are multiple fold:
- Early "investors" (ie. preorders, esp. early ones) gets a benefit over others by getting half price units which have higher hash rate (or equivalently multiple units per 1 unit) compared to someone buying today
- That same will also mean that preorder people will have higher returns for longer
- Active miners benefit over others due to current high BTC:USD exchange rate
- High margin might allow BFL to have on-stock products for fast/immediate shipment when backlog has cleared
- High margin also allows budget for starting next gen immediately after current gen is on distribution and backlog fully cleared (which i hope they don't even mention before first wafers are out of fab)
- Downside is network security -> way less units, with way less hash rate will be sold in total
- More downside in network security -> not many are willing to put down 1300$ as their first miner, so entry will be with 250$ Jalapeno not making up that much hash rate relative to other units
- If they go for higher availability with increased margins, newbie miners get online faster :)

Now they damn better start shipping within couple of months :)

Heck yeah! If BFL begins delivery in a couple months it'll be an even year from order date to delivery for some of those early investors. Now that's pro.

the 1.5THs isnt out of stock.  BFL simply cannot make it work cause they're a bunch of monkies over there.

Yes .. i was confused how can any thing it isnt exist be out of stock

Maybe it's because they banned private ownership of thermonuclear weapons?  ;)


http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/k9l5-1l-9f61.jpg

wasteful

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BAvOlh6CAAA00Vd.jpg

Meh. That's what you get when you're spending other people's money. See US Congress for reference.

+1

This made me laugh so much. Thank you.

+1

Frizz is a hoot. :) Plus Josh *HATES* him...which is a huge pro in my book.

See this was all part of the dog and pony show. Make it appear that you are in development of a product to specification and then when the truth comes out just plaster a sign that reads "OUT OF STOCK"

 :D

OMFG this is so funny.

see bfl is only good for ENTERTAINMENT VALUE. That's it.

+1

Not sure where I'm going to get all the desk space required for my units with them being that size. Then again, I don't actually need to live in my apartment. Kind of wish I ordered the thermonuclear minirig before it went out of stock. I know a few fellas who would have enjoyed it.

You could put the part exchanged FPGA singles in them. People would still buy a 25MH/s (2 BTC a day) FPGA Mini Rig if it was "in stock".

You could make beautiful aquariums, sure had a lot of success.

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/1946/bflr.jpg

Thanks.

I sure hope so  ;)


http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/k9l5-1n-66f0.jpg

Oh wow OMG I had a riot of a laugh at that. Maybe North Korea should buy some BFL units. Think of the mega-tonnes of explosive power they would wield!!!

I know right?!? BFL could even toss in a side order of JZ troll rage if the North Koreans order in bulk.

It's almost looking like Tom should have just stayed the course with bASIC. Well, unless he was incapable of pulling it off altogether.

At least he was right that BFL probably wouldn't ship in March. And maybe right to question the power efficiency BFL was claiming.

With the higher pricing and reduced performance, any asic that comes along will easier to consider. Well, other than concern for it being a  fiasco like bASIC, or a possibly scam.

now THATS FUCKING AWESOME!

This. Remember this when your BurnFireLight rig turns into a smoke machine.

You are worthress, Josh Zerran!

Was it really that hard to make a working unit first then worry about the rest? People that still support them just make me laugh.  :D

No need to support BFL when they reduce the hash rate on their rigs and jacked up the price on them. Never trust them anyway since only Avalon delivered. Everybody else who is selling ASICs like BFL are liars and trolls.

There are still people who believe that they will ever get anything from BFL?  :o  This is indeed a paper waiting to be written.

But THEY SHIPPED!!! How can they not believe that they will get anything from BFL? :D

It was [probably] uneconomical and impossible to build for the quoted price.

10kilowatts...guess how many power supplies that will take....yikes.

The reason BFL are out of Mini Rigs is because i order 100 of them  ;D

Someone ought to open a bet (at some place other than BetsOfBitcoin) on whether Avalon will ship Gen2 before BFL ships....anything.

I think if you plug in their units you will increase your hashrate. The only problem is that you house may become ashes.