Bitcoin Forum

So many of these ICOs are really outsiders who have no interest in crypto but just want to grab from the pool of the crypto community.

I look at many of them and they are just fucking bankers who have hired a crypto developer to make a grab for the crypto community's money. Here is a perfect example, why do they need the blockchain to start a hedge fund?


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2003741.0


I'm not against all ICO's but most are just using us as a crypto community. Until we refuse to be ass raped by these banking interests we are destined to lose money to them. We need to invest in projects that are pure crypto and not get all wet pants about any project involving some big money interests. We all lose then, they win.


BTW play spot the crypto nerd among the bankers selling out in the pictures of the team!

How do you propose we fight them off?

I just added a point before you posted. Its simple we say fuck off to big banking interests just in the same way we say fuck off to any scammer. I mean did we ever have any problem avoiding any project with a 10% premine? Some of these projects are like 100% premine in essence!!!




People in crypto need to remember why crypto was invented and it sure as hell wasn't to boost the profits of bankers. I'm sick of people getting excited when they hear some bank or Amazon etc is sniffing around a project. Fuck them lets build our own future not run after them.


Of course you can't stop people but people should be starting to see now that once they see half the team are bankers and not in anyway connected to the crypto community then they should collectively avoid them cause the money won't be going to investors but them.

I know that and I dont give a damn! I use those ICOs to increase my BTC.

Really? when most new ICOs have lost money for people.....are you a wizard?


Oh yeah also I dont give a fuck about you. Cause your thinking fucks us all in the long term.

Funny how everyone who gambles with ICOs claims they're making profits. Who's losing then?

I'm with you on this one. Those smiling guys sure do inspire a lot of confidence  ;D as they can smell the free money coming their way  8)

Unfortunately there seems to be a steady and increasing supply of naive (and greedy) people who can be easily sold a turd.

In the game you're either a wolf or a sheep.

And we all know which ones the bankers' are :)

Look I'm not even being that altruistic or idealist. I'm saying we as a crypto community are giving our wealth over to people outside the community who are already stupidly rich. If we start saying no to these ICO's for one it will be fun seeing bankers get like 20btc on some big planned money grab and also if we invest in real internal crypto projects we can be the ones reaping the benefits of the surge in crypto outside money coming in.



I guess this will need to take a collective a ah! moment to realise we all will do a lot better with this thinking.


I have to be careful cause I will be called a shill. Here is a good example projects like IOTA even though i didn't invest at the least the guy was from the internal crypto community and if big money interests get involved they came to us. Also the internal crypto investors of IOTA were the ones who got rich at least not some outside wankers. This means even more money pool inside crypto not money being siphoned off that will never come back into crypto.

Disclaimer I dont like IOTA that much and still think its over priced and dont own any.

There is a big need for ICO certifications/ratings based on criteria which create fair and safe ICO practices. Legitimate projects should not being pulling moneygrabs, but in a world with no regulations and a bunch of sheep, there is no reason for new projects to do anything but get the most cash possible.

There are some organizations starting to do reports on ICOs doing detailed research and giving them a rating, but some of these charge for the detailed report. I don't know why someone with some weight in the community hasn't stepped forward with some kind of plan to solve this issue.

Legislation ALWAYS helps the big guy not the little crypto developer.

What if projects did at least 50% airdrops? or at least a big airdrop?

I could handle they get 50m if the other 50m worth of coins went into crypto community...


If we think of Imo just like mining and premises and judge them on how much they clearly want to grab we could improve the situation i think.

So you're thinking something along the lines of a grassroots movement within the crypto community?

I guess making people aware of the situation is the first step. Point the frauds out.

I guess so but grassroots sounds so communist. I'm just saying we should foster a culture we had about past projects we saw as money grabbers so new ICO team can't think they can take all the money and leave investors screwed. Its simple we insist they do things like airdrop for a certain percentage of coins. Soon they all ICO's will do them knowing they won't get our interest if they dont. Its kind of like consumer power, once people start saying no to something they very quickly change.


The other option is continue having ICOs that make no money for investors.

in my opinion ICO scam will have the same fate as pre-mine scam.
they are effectively the same thing. you get a lot of money out of nowhere. in pre-mine you at least had to do something about the coin and pump its price to be able to make the most profit but in ICO things have gotten easier for scammers! they get paid in something else, and that something else needs to keep its price up! as a result they don't give a rats ass about their own project...

but eventually all these things will die. and right now it is starting. a new wave of newbies are coming and asking "how do i make my own ICO" that leads to 1000 shit that people lose a lot on and will leave this method of "gambling" alone.

Who said anything about legislation?

 I said we need rating organizations and different kinds. This could be (should be) done with community feedback.  Requirements around the structure of ICOs can be researched and if an ICO meets these criteria it gets a stamp of approval, if it doesn't meet requirements it gets no stamp of approval.

This doesn't stop any one from participating in ICO's that don't meet these requirements, but creates a social barrier for riskier ico structures.

I do have faith in the market too. But I think as long as there is a little bit of cheese for newbie investors they will keep biting. Its sad many newbies are seeing a success if they make 30% ROI when a big crypto success with a market cap in the 100m's should of made a lot of us rich. The more money internaly the more power crypto people will have.

No such thing as fair and safe crypto friendly ICO - either you have to blindly trust the team behind an ICO (e.g gamble) or you have to have them verified and accountable. Both of those things are completely against crypto.


Going one step further, premine in any form (ICO, airdrop, bounties, etc) is not acceptable.


If a group needs funding they should use their own money if they're confident (if not then why bother) or get it from the outside, not tied into the project via coins or tokens.


And if they want ongoing funding, they should use the model which automatically transfers a set percentage of each blocks' reward to a dev address.

ICO = SCAM

I have laid out countless reasons why .. all of which are ignored.
Why ?
MONEY.

The thing is people with MORE money make LOTS..
Then the little guys co-op the "coin" for a small slice of profits..
..regardless if the "scheme" is legit.

I have pointed out the problem here endlessly and no one cares and no one will comment.
Aside from GTFO.
And why do i have to ?
Shouldn't the greedy hoards of losers here showing up leave ?
They will eventually anyway when they made some money then lost all of it eventually ?

It's a greedy economy in a lawless scammy environment.
And greedy does not end well.

Lecturing these guys is a waste of time.
The best that is going to happen is you will make a smarter scammer and more clever greedy profiteer.

My criticsims here for fours straight years helped these scammer evolved their craft.
OI helped them hone their little game down to a fine science.
@OP you may have recently started posting topics like this but i have been doing it 24/7 for 4 years an i helped theses douche bags evolve and fine tune their scam game.
What have i seen since ?
A never ending list of legends eaten up by greed.
A who's who of Bitcointalk that all lined up for thefts, corruption, greedy etc.

Money and power corrupts which is why i refuse to advocate ICO's.
It is a massive downgrade from the initial distribution of BTC.
If it is not improving on Bitcoins system then it is in fact pure garbage and should be avoided.
REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH YOU *COULD* MAKE OF THEM.

When i came today i seen the headline theymos put in about the BIP at the top of the page.
I right away was thinking about who CONTROLS Bitcoin.
Then i seen the Altcoin section.
ICO = CENTRALIZATION
And worse.. much much worse.

There is nothing to say.
Nothing to debate.
This is now the scam section.. it's the norm now.
Things changed years ago and Bitcointalk is long dead.
It's a farce now.. a sleazy charade of Greed.
What we see is a decentralized system 51% attacked by bag greedy losers.
This people is the result... a hot dumpster fire of greed.

Um, there is no way to stop ICOs from taking place, so this line of thinking gets absolutely nowhere.

There are plenty of legitimate cases in the crypto world that started with ICO's... Ethereum being a case and point.  It's a different world since that time though, and the model they used for an ICO is no longer legitimate.

ICO Funds need to self be ESCROWED, and ICO's need to layout their own payout and development plan.  If promises aren't kept then people need to be able to withdraw their remaining share from the escrow (can't withdraw what is already spent).   The crypto world has the solution to it's own problems in it's own hands... Smart contracts can go a long way towards making ICO's fair and safe.

If you have to rely on promises it's already a shit system - compared to Bitcoin.

And escrows doesn't do anything other than delaying the money getting into the hands of scammers.

Enough sheep can kill a wolf.

Not really, that is the premise of any kind of crowd funding. Plenty of really exciting projects happen on kick starter that would have never happened before kickstarted existed.

A project creates a roadmap and if they don't follow their roadmap as aligned with the ICO then the funds become available for withdrawal. This could be facilitated by a neutral organization (centralized) or facilitated by an oracle (The crowd/Cloud).

I get where you are.coming from but in some ways you are part of the problem with such a ridged black and white view. You are the controlled opppsition making anyone who is against icos a blanket extremist. If the world was that dark and sinister you would be the perfect looney opposition the big icos would ask for.


My point is we as a community need to start demanding more from those who walk into crypto community hoping to scoop up all our money. Just like consumers they need us more than we need their tiny roi frankenstein icos. So when the deal from icos only benefits them we got to start saying fuck off to them.

A good starting point is to start demanding a percentage is fairly airdropped at least 30% imo. Or we tell them to fuck off away from the forum. You will be surprised how quickly new icos start doing it.


Fact is bitcointalk could reinforce this for.good of whole community today if they wanted. I mean if outsiders try to take from the community dont they have a responsibility to help us?

Also ico countdown sites should only allow icos with a certain percentage airdropped. And not some shitty signiture campaign.

I agree there should be ICO standards.

The problem is, standards require regulation, and then you're on the slippery path of becoming just another centralized + regulated bank.

first of all, why are you at mad, it's my opinion !!
and who forced you to invest !! we know from the beginning all those altcoins are scam in somehow.
you want decentralized, so this is how it works

Did we ever need regulations to tell 10% premines to fuck off?

If icos want to use the crypto community we need to start telling them we want a better cut or they wont get pir money. Its too.late after ico is done you got to start making clear many of us will boycott their ico without a significant airdrop. People power isnt socalism its us the consumers showing our power in a free capitalist system.

Here is how free decentralised works....fuck off.

And i hope more people also start telling icos that take all the profits from the crypto community to fuck off too unless they want to start sharing some of the pie.

I have this hope....thats all.

Then do something to solve the issue instead of whining about it.

It's actually a very nice problem to solve, for obvious reasons.

Your posts do not go unnoticed, and I believe contribute greatly.
Start the doubt,  the seed has been sown. 

I thought i just did.

 There are all sorts of industries that self regulate. ECO friendly buildings have the LEED (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_in_Energy_and_Environmental_Design (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership_in_Energy_and_Environmental_Design)) certification. There are a number of organizations that certify the fair trade label for international goods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade_certification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade_certification)).


But ICO standards do not require centralized regulation. There are open source standards all over the tech industry, there is no reason you can't have an open source, crowd built, set of ICO standards. Look at the way Creative Commons works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_license (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_license)

It wouldn't be that hard to create a set of criteria for ICO's to self or community labeled, especially if people demanded it.  Many of you are suggesting that the only way is for people to wake up and not put their cash into ICOs at all, but then its the crowds will vs large advertising campaigns.  Afraid to say it, but advertising has proven itself again and again. The only way to combat this is with some structure. A standard with a structure like creative commons, but flipped as a rating system could be simple and quite robust/flexible.

I never posted anything here because of morality.
I posted FUD because i think it is in ALL our best interest.

Buddy yammering at me about black & White ?
Well i just told him about moving the goal posts.

Bitcoin ALREADY had flaws.. it is not our job to make a worse version of it ..8 fucking thousand times worse and worse

..for profits.

You all the majority here in control are sowing the seeds of your own demise.
It's a cycle of up's and downs.

Those of you here who have any shred of morality in you need to realize you are surrounded by a hoards of people with NONE what so ever.
You will all collectively crash this shit then a recession will hit for a year or two.
Then you will start it all over again.

It's like starting some pointless token like say Max Coin.
Making it pumped up in price.. then dumping on those caught in the net.
When you shook them all loose and most dumped for a loss..
Then you can re-buy all the cheap coins nom nom nom.. then do it all over again.
Over and over until they get tired off falling of the same trap.
Then..
Put out a new coin..
And do it all over again.

What is it you are accomplishing here people ?
Are ANY of you here for any other reason than to simply make money off of what ever is paying out ?

There are consequences and you will pay them.
Rich and corrupt will get richer and the poor ..poorer.
What ensures this is a rigged scammy corrupt game.
When they want your money they simply take it.
I say... it's like playing a game of Monopoly with a corrupt banker.
And you all play along because you think you have a *CHANCE* at walking away with a slice.
So YOU ignore the corruption etc then show up here making excuses.. "Black & white"
Yeah it is Black & White.. bad is bad ya dumb fucking idiots.

This is 99% scammy bullshit.
100% of ICO's are a scam.
You supporting them makes you a scam supporter.. for profits.
I know what will happen i can see it far in advance.
Mathematically the cards are already played.

Nothing wrong with investing by putting bets on what the future system might be. You forget that investment made the railroads the electricity grid etc etc. Investing in it purest form is aiding the progress of the modern world. Its all your all icos are scams bullshit that is the black and white thinking i mentioned.

All im saying is investors need to fight for a better deal .before we part with pur investments. If you think i am anti speculation then you picked the wrong thread.


And yes bitcoin is flawed. When the dust clears we should have a bunch of winners for the new decentralised world. If you dont applaud that end game then I guess you really are in the wrong forum.

If we are being used by bankers here again then this evils bankers who make their money through fraudulent and deception have their agents every were.ICO is a very great channel that scam are using to actually rise capital from the market. Still there are others good ICO that have make investors a millionaires .

People have been going on about this for years, there is not much you can do except save yourself. People will keep investing no matter what you tell them but they'll learn when they get burn.

I see you guys writing that icos can't be stopped. Nobody can forbid them releasing new and shitty coins, that's true, but it is us who are actually responsible for the effects, for among us there are people who sort of know ICOs are not good as an investment and yet they can't resist the temptation to buy something and get rich.
We have to ignore icos and they will die themselves. Or, who knows, one day we may really have a great coin released this way. ICOs are something we have to be formally tolerant with if we value freedom.

Yes that's true a lot of project setup a blockchain base to grab money but it is investor's problem, they will lose a lot of money.

What is funny is i already went through this ENDLESSLY here.
Every new user.
Every comment.
Every coin..

All the same bullshit.. repeated.

Last time it was coin-clones.
Now it's ICO's.

Other than that it's identical.  ::)

True, this discussion is being discussed all over again and again which until now we cant able to find the ways on how to stop those ICO's. If you do see the marketplace (altcoins). There are too many popping out from nowhere introducing their project which do really need for investors to put up money. We can say that most of them are shitty and just really need the money without minding or serious about their plans but yet there are still some ICO which is worth investing on which you can able to see its sincerity regarding to their project. We do have different beliefs on sort of things but most people here do have the same views.

This is inevitable and i must disagree with you that we are not been used, the investors are not foolish either but consider some ico projects as a means of increasing their wealth.

You are and you all know it.. but don't mind.

I understand your point and i agree with most of your assertions but a few. The fact that this bankers are always the predators and with their sophisticated economics and accounting they can be siphon many from the crypto pool and send it else where never to be returned i very true. We need to be really careful. This ICOs are becoming more and more useless and the opinion that investors stand to benefit from ICOs is no more true. Last month a placed some few dollars in two ICOs and the price of the tokens keep depreciating. I know i have lost some dough but would have been happy to loose it to the crypto world where i believe, putting in some effort can bring back this funds but here is the case my money is gone forever. 

I also understand your position and where you are currently coming from and quite a number of people have expressed the same point of view in the past. However, I personally don't bother about whether the person behind the scene is a banker or a pharmacist or a lawyer what matters is that, do they have a working model that would benefit me as an investor? If that is settled and I can evaluate the motive behind such, I think I don't have any issues in which the onus is on everyone putting his/her money into ICOs to sure of the due diligence.

The NVO decentralized exchange is the only ICO/crowdsale project I have trusted so far.
I have a hard time feeling any real commitment from most other projects.

The problem is that people are learning the wrong meaning of cryptocurrencies. They're meant to be anonymous and a safe earnings storage and a currency which is decentralized. I think most new coins are scams or just some business plans for some people. I will stick with the old coins which were released before 1st of January 2016.

In fact, not only ICO, the price of crypto in current are by the mentality of trader on market decisive increasing or decreasing. Most trader on market in present are speculator anh they not know the reason make the price of crypto they holding have flash crash or pumped very fast. Then, by FOMO they hurry buy/sell and panic => unwittingly control the price helps whales :)

An ICO is in fact centralized.
And Ethereum the queen of ICO scam coins came out in 2014.
Who says they are suppose to be anon anyway ?

The point is.. "currency"
NOT centralized pointless ICO crowd funding scheme coins for profit.

You miss the argument here guys.
It's not about right or wrong or even crypto ideaology.
It's about intent.

What the fuck is it that is being created ?
A currency ?
And you are "investing" in one because you think it will be used as one eventually one day ?
Of course not.

That dream died in 2013.
Ever since schemes and gimmicks and alternative uses for Block-Chains took off.
Because the impatient greedy brat community realized the "currencies' were going nowhere fast.
They also had no way to improve on Bitcoin the currency.
So they simply gave up and shifted directions.

Removing mining from the process also eased the mass coin pump & dump process.
Now a guy can sit at home copy and paste Github.zip or what ever then keep 70 million tokens for himself as he premines ALL the coins with a calculator or cell phone etc.
THEN..
Sells the rest of them to you stupid greedy IMPATIENT idiot losers.

Fuck yeah.. of course that is bad.
Of course it's scammy.
Yeah this shit is retarded.
The only people on planet earth who don't see what i mean are the greedy morons trying to profit from it all.

No one is being fooled.
You would have to be pretty damn stupid to believe in all this crap.
Like the type of nitwit douche that bought a LEO Coin phone..

http://learnearnown.win/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/leocoin-mining-34.jpg

Don't forget to get your LEO MasterCard too  :D

http://leocoincanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/leo-coin-plan.png

Can't help but love Spoetnik's posts on this forum ;D

I mean it's true that most ICO tokens are fucking useless. The point of a cryptocurrency is to act as a decentralized mean of exchange, of value, of information. And what do we see popping up more and more everywhere? Centralized tokens that just act as unregulated shares in the company of whoever is selling the tokens. What the hell? This is not crypto this is crowdfunding gone crazy, just because you're selling tokens created on a blockchain doesn't mean you're doing crypto, you're just taking money from people and selling them the hope that their tokens will gain value in time if your company becomes successfull. That's just selling shares in an unregulated market. And sometimes it's not even shares and the token is doomed from the start, but people keep buying anyway

These bankers and rich fuckers don't even need your money to launch their company, they don't even need a crowdfund, but they do it to get your millions, billions, and then what the fuck do they care if their company doesn't build anything. You do care but they won't, they will have got what they wanted right from the beginning, more money, and if they can find a way to squeeze more out of you they will, but don't count on them to build something revolutionary when they already have all they cared about in the first place. They're selling you hope but the game is rigged against you, they never lose. The more money you give them the less incentive they have to build what they promised you. Cause they don't care about making the world a better place. They don't give a flying fuck about that.

The point ?
All i should hope for is that you all support what you believe in.
The project should mean something.
Personally i think that should be adoption of a digital currency.

For example pushers of ANON coins piss me off..
But i respect their agenda even if i disagree.
At least they stand for something.. other than who cares fuck Bitcoin i just want profits types of people.
Like my own brother told me before.

You are all forgetting Allan Greenspan kept telling everyone we don't need regulations..
He claimed the scene would police it self.
The crashed the worlds economy and we hit a recession and had bail-outs.
Some economies collapsed.. scammers got rich.
And worse is just as predicted we are still being hit with more rapid inflation.

Greenspan admitted he was 100% wrong and implemented regulations.
Those bundled housing mortgage stocks were not even as bad as altcoins.
Altcoins are even more useless.

So did the investors come rushing in because they thought you know damn !
I'd LOVE to "invest" in mortgage financing for poor people who have no right having a mortgage !
Oh yeah.. that sounds like suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch a sensible investment.

mmhhmmmm LOL
Nope.. greed.
And it bit them in the ass hard.

You're never really going to find a bunch of new people that come in based on their love of Bitcoin. Think about services from the past, like for example PayPal. We were running three or four different websites at the time, and we were doing a lot with technology, and myself my partner thought that PayPal was absolutely beautiful new idea and we played with it for like the entire first night when we ran into it. But that's us, and that's the same thing we did was Bitcoin when we ran into it. We're not going to get new customers we're not going to get new clients, and we're not going to get new users of Bitcoin, based on the fact that it's a cool crypto thing.

If that is what you thought of the ICO's then logically, bounty campaign participants are on the same line. Anyway I see it as a win-win situation. They get what they want and we get what we want.

It was happened with recent mobile application boom there was lots of startup happened for attracting investors and closed in short time by showing loss here also crypto world same thing happening lots of techies and blockchain developers being used by greedy people.

A lot of good comments and a valid concern. Regulations are made in history to prevent the inevitable. Regulations are things we don't like and there is the paradox. Maybe there should be a rating system but ratings get tampered with look at what reddit the "free speech forum" has become. Someone here spoke about smart contracts, now there is a thing. Maybe new alts should hold the money and work with voting structure, or there should be a maximum buy in. Anyway i don't know enough to be giving to much tips so i leave that up to you guys. However there should be rules made by some people on this forum, and these rules should get some surtain value. For instance pure hypothetically we get to the point where we find an alt should have:

* no premine. *1 point
* centralised.  *1 point
* Max buy in.  *1 point
*...   
*...

So rules have been made and i want to make an ALT coin that i called FRAUD

I make the whitepaper and post it on this forum so you guys can buy into my FRAUD, i have to include the pointsystem cause you guys keep on posting that shit so i add the vallue of 4/20 to the page.
Now nobody want's to buy my FRAUD :-(

PayPal did get their first thousand customers based on the fact that it was a fun thing to play with. They got their first down customers based on the fact that they feel the need in the business industry and gave online business is the ability to quickly processed payments without getting involved with the automated Clearing Houses. So yes, the cryptocurrency market and the cryptocurrency technology it's going to be used and abused by a variety of different people for a variety of different but that's actually a good thing it shows that we are supplying a service or product that is designed for people outside of our interest group

A lot of people, probably the new ICO participants, think their ICO investment will be a great success since they can there is a bright future. Acutally, only a few people will be lucky since these project will not get any paybcak form the users since there will be a long time to give users some useful products or services. So, two points:
1) ICO is a high risk high payback investment, do not forget the high risk;
2) ICO should be a long term investment, please be patient.

Yep, stay away from ICO's. Way too much money being thrown at these that have no product. Many businesses fail in the real world and a higher percentage in the tech field. The blockchain field will be even worst.

But here is one that you might not want to miss

Dentacoin   1ETH = 8 million Dentacoins

Ask your dentist to start taking Dentacoin for payment

/s

It's like one of those first video games. Where the kids playing on the TV and suddenly the parents got involved. We want you interest groups, we want new business models, and we want variety to come join for two reasons. The first is obvious, the more people using Bitcoin the more money for all of us. But the second reason, is that it also gives us new material, new questions, ending ideas that we can build a future technology on.

If we stay isolated in our own little group. Then we're always going to be dealing with our own ideas. And our own set of information. But when somebody comes into the cryptocurrency market cryptocurrency business models, and they come from a different part of society, and they asked a question that's completely off-the-wall to us, that's what we see the needs that need to be filled for World Wide acceptance.