Bitcoin Forum

There are three things of a Man that you don't mess with.

1.)His Ego
2.)His Woman
3.)His Money

I have 2 pre-orders for Asic SC Singles. I have had it with BFL and their shit. It is easy for someone to say "Oh well just get your refund".

1. I am upgrading from BFL Singles
2. I don't want a refund, I want what I ordered

Getting a refund would be loaning BFL my hard-earned money to do what they want with it, and giving it back to me at no interest months later.

I am tired of these Useless updates from BFL_Josh. They need to hire useful workers and equipment and release the product that so many of us paid for close to a year ago. I don't care if they lose profit, I don't care if BFL_Josh has to put some of his own money to make it happen, they were optimistic with our money, and failed to have a structured business plan. They should be penalized, not us.

And also, to all of the "I told you so" people with sigs saying BFL is a scam, I don't care what you say. You guys just started posting as the delays began and act like you predicted all of this months into the future. You guys aren't helping the cause at all, you all just piggy backing the next guy and putting the same crap in your sig and saying the same things wanting to feel accomplished. Reminds me of "Yes we can" supporters.

Josh

My advice: get a refund and don't look back.

I asked for refund 4 days ago and nothing has happened yet. Not even an email reply.

How long does it usually take?

Thanks for the input.

I am going to post something and I think most pre-order holders can agree with me, that we have a fear of getting a refund and they actually start shipping en mass shortly after, or even any amount of time after.

I know I am going to get some slack from the above post, and I know sometimes Bitcoin mining/Bitcoin in general can be a small gamble. But you shouldn't have to take chances when you pay for a product from a company, and they don't ship out in a whole year. BFL has been keeping us on our toes since October, saying next month very optimistically every time. While we think to ourselves, "Well why get a refund if they're shipping soon". From the facebook post of them shipping "next week" (beginning of May) to their recent post, they have been practicing very immoral behavior to their customers. If it was October and they'd have honestly told us the delay would be over a year, we'd all of jumped ship to Avalon.

Don't start bitchin too loud,they'll do the refund for you  ::)

+1

A thread on a forum isn't going to gain you anything even if it does feel better after venting.

Go talk to a lawyer in the same state as BFL about a case action against them for failing to meet promises on purchases made by customers. They are what 8 months late and under delivering on specs.

But don't do it until they have shipped your unit! You don't want them declaring bankruptcy and going to jail (again) until you have at least got something out of them!!

get refund buy some IC or ASICminer .

The point is he is upgrading, so he in effect looses his discount as well as is left with obsolete hardware he's been led to believe can be replaced, justifying the single for half the retail price.

It's scandalous however that anyone can openly state 'next week' knowing there maybe every chance that won't happen, or even worse knowing for sure!

Very true see this

Topic: BFL Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207331.0

basically; he bitched, they cancelled his $5k order.

My advise is - Unite and go to the court. It is US company after all. Where is American justice on the movies only or? I am pretty dam sure that there will be a plenty of lawyers interested in such big case we are talking for millions. When they see a REAL i repeat A !REAL! thread about their business and personalities things will start to move in a right direction FAST!

Remember - You have to unite first and act as ONE otherwise you are going to loose for SURE

Best
PS:
I can bet if all of you fire a claim worth for millions for preordes and another one 10xMilions for lost profits you will be rewarded with a lot of free units and all other fancy stuff coming from BFL. But i doubt it will happen because here everyone watches his own interest only and there is no community spirit at all. I might be wrong about the lack of spirit and i do really want to be ...only time will tell

It's actually tiring to all the lurkers who read this forum to see people either a) bump up one year old BFL threads or b) start another BFL complaint thread. I think we all get the idea.

If you hate their business practices, either do something about it or move on. The best course of action would be for you to get a refund and move on.

But they might ship next week!  :D

"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

Are there any BFL Pre-Order holders here who'd like to chime in?

if i were u get a refund... why wait? Josh is probably using your miner to mined , he get double and thanks 2 you.

It's a risk, it's your money. Do what you think is best and if it isn't, well hindsight is a bitch.

No one will go Court every one here have small order he wont losse his time for 2k~5k *i think

I'm in Texas. I can't imagine BFL customers traveling to Kansas for this. I got a lot going on right now. I should just get what I paid for.

you wont get you want , you have to waitttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttt long time you get refund buy miner IC build your miner cheaper

That is your problem as i said you are going to loose. You do not realise that your 2-5K are lost already do you? You will get 9 BTC refund at top for 1000 USd invested (90 BTC or so math maight be wrong just an example). That is just ridiculous
Any way i am not trying to get in fight with you but with your thinking you are gonna be victims. The weakest BFL point is that they are US business and US citizens also.


I feel sorry for you guys...I do really wish you to have your BFL toys soon and to enjoy
Good luck!

Sell your preorder to a greater fool (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory).

^ best idea but i don't think anyone will buy it now as everyone knows that BFL is not going to ship anything soon.

Look here http://bfl.ptz.ro/ New orders are reported every day.

I would tread very careful about speaking poorly about BFL, Josh. Your namesake at Butterfly Labs will punitively cancel your order as has been demonstrated already.

You now risk retaliation.

Is's at least a couple of weeks since I looked at that one last time. Noted that a couple of the early orders have flagged their order as delivered.

Ok then create a sock puppet account and go on a ranting spree. Then no harm done right?

simple:

refund now, do not look back.
Never make a business with them again.

or wait, read this "delivery in 14 days" bullshit for another X months
may get a device sometime or get nothing when bfl is insolvent

I think they have real cash flow problems ...
everything fits together on this assumption

Complaining is silly. Either act or forget.

Hardware is hard, remember this is custom hardware, it isn't like plans sit on the self and you can just modify those.

It is only hard if you have never done it before. Otherwise it is just like building and shipping any other physical product.

Cool. So when will you be shipping your line of ASIC hardware?

Simples, set your own two week theory, and then in two weeks make a real decision based on the fact that was the last two week limit you were prepared to take.

Something may happen in two weeks from now, and you can make a more informed decision.

Something might not happen, and you can safely say that was the last two weeks of my life I was prepared to give to BFL.

That said the OP is in the more awkward position of being a previous buyer with a trade-in device, and he is paying half the original retail price for the goods. In effect he has less to loose, as he is paying less than a quarter of the current retail price for gh/s per US$... ???

bro if they cant do it why did you make it in first place and there many ASIC company shipped there product . 

In two weeks (tm)

What, two?

It's hard if your only business experience is running an international mail order scam for six years.

this is what i would do too!

In fact, i just might!

Absolutely.

Sometimes a half a month according to dave. (if you are asking about a reply)
Some folks have waited up to 2 months. (If you live overseas)

In the same boat here, and emailing BFL nicely resulted in a useless "We don't know when we will be shipping." response over a week later. Either take the refund and try and go the DIY route or wait "two more weeks" til eternity. Going after them legally will only make it harder for them to ship their orders if they even have the necessary funds to do so as is. Although the longer this BS goes on, more people will ask for refunds, especially if the DIYers can get Avalon chips on boards by July.

Many of the (so called) "Clowns against BFL" crew realized pretty quickly that there's no way that BFL can keep their promises. They informed people about BFLs shabby business business methods (blatant lies, stringing customers along and along, advertising units that don't (and probably will never) exist) as "Order now", etc.).

This did happen as early as mid of last year.

Given BFLs track record of failures, you didn't have to be a genius to predict all of this:
- no way to reach 1GHash/s per Watt
- no way to ship in October 2012
- no way to ship 400 units a day
- ...

But people fell for this. And still do (you can still postings on here like "Should I order a 5GH unit from BFL?")

The "Clowns against BFL" sort of counterbalanced all the BFL Google Ads and Ads on this forum here.

So imho your statement ("You guys aren't helping the cause at all") is not true.

Just trying to spread the information about BFL's problems so newbs wouldn't waste their money in high risk companies like BFL.

Even GPUs are lower risk than BFL at the moment, there is Litecoin and many new coins where you can make extra quick ROI if you get lucky. I personally got lucky like 5 times in a row so my ROI on GPUs was just a couple of weeks per purchased batch.

I'm feeling good about not jumping in to this pre-order BFL gamble. Avalon batch 1 and 2 are something I would now be ordering if I could go back in time.

There are other companies that deserve your support over these scumbags. BFL is run by amateurs that don't give a rats ass about the community, they are just in it for the money.

Vote with your wallet, request a refund, and give it to Avalon or ASICMiner as the only two that have actually done what they promised, or look into the other DIY projects in the works to use Avalon chips.

BFL is a pathetic business and a mockery of this new industry, it should not be stood for and defended.

The mutiny is spreading

Having placed a very early preorder I can say that as it currently stands there's pretty much no reason to ask for a return if you're one of those June/July orders.  It's almost like bettering on #24 on a roulette wheel - low chance in hell but decent payoff if you do get it.  What's $1300 for a Single now anyways - 11 BTC.  I paid over 200 BTC for mine, at this point getting back 11 BTC would be like an escrow tip  ::)

Now for anybody who has later orders you must either have faith in the company or not want to deal with the other ASIC vendors.

For the OP who has less on the line it doesn't make sense to ask for a refund unless he absolutely needs the $.  What BFL should do is return the current price of the miners (ie 2x cost) for seizing the money for 10 months but like that will ever happen  :D

Defend their bullshit all you want, Bitcoin is a community call and they are pissing all over it. Josh is an asshole, which I don't think I need to elaborate on, the video of him says it all.

Why support a business built by scammers, jerks, and liars. Others deserve your coin a lot more by simply being transparent and delivering on their promises.

Their crap reputation and open rebellion is on them, not us.

There's a much more profitable option.

1. Wait while they ship a couple more dev/prototype units.
2. Sell your preorder on the forums.

the 25%/10% off a future order was initially a slap in the face, now even more so since prices doubled and specs were reduced on future orders (that will likely never ROI).  if i get a shitty meal at a restaurant and even shittier service, the last thing i want is to be forced to give them more money while suffering through their experience a second time for a smaller meal that costs twice as much in order to claim my half assed "apology".

i was thinking that receiving double the ordered hash rate and free expedited shipping upgrade would be fair for the early orders, maybe with that "extra" equipment put at the end of the current preorder queue.  your idea sounds pretty fair to me too.  too bad bfl won't think so  :'(

Avalon has upgraded their production line and is back to shipping units. I bet an order placed right now with them would result in a unit (that meets specifications) actually arriving before any BFL order.

This is what getting a bitcoin ASIC device looks like, in case anyone has forgotten ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwzHfr-qaFo

I would make that bet, except there is no way to order a Batch 4 device yet :( I will likely be one of the first in line should that happen.

There won't be a Batch 4 according to this post:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=209814.msg2201060#msg2201060

The relevant line:

nope they sell the chips directly its easier :D

The guys telling you to sell your pre-order to a greater fool are even worse scum than BFL. And so will you be.  Do you really want to become a scammer too?   Put down the Ayn Rand and have some decency guys.

 My advice is to get your refund, use the $ to buy btc and hold (or just hold if you paid in btc).

As the hashrate rises it'll become impossible to make your btc back (& no, it's not a "profit" if you lose in btc terms but gain in $ terms)

Are we sure they are mass shipping now, and not just shipping the 20 test units?  I haven't seen anything official or even heard from anyone that talked with Yifu to confirm that.  Link?

I'm in that position,2nd day order.So I'm stickin it out.I couldn't get 30GH for $650 now or ever,so..........................

I have alot I want to say...............but I must keep quiet  :(

 You have probably said too much already. Forced order cancellations in 3...2...

Nice way to shut down critics. Well done BFL!

I don't have any orders or beef with BFL myself, but it's pretty disgraceful that it's come to that.

It's literally holding customers hostage.

+11111

BFL = Big (interest) Free Loan ?  ;)

WOW...like how fucked up are BFL that ppl have now resorted to this !!!

Thats really cool ..remove all the smoke and mirrors from there dog and pony shows !!!

I guess the real way we could all join as a community is if we all get our refunds, and stop any future orders to go into BFL. That way they can stop living off our money while they sit on their asses for months. They won't have money to "Operate".

Get a refund - I move up in the queue...

+1 It would resolve the issues and protect the community.  Moving up the Q seems to be a nice mantra for BFL because that solidifies people into inaction which may prove the losing proposition given the progress of DIY projects and the fact a generation II Avalon chip is being designed. This means if you cling too long to the BFL product line you will be left behind. Enjoy being first in line and with a product that is quickly becoming "obsolete" before it is even delivered.

Do you see any advantage in moving up the queue when nothing is delivered? Maybe you should try to get a certificate about your place in this queue before BFL runs out money.  ;D

If I had a dime for every time this thread was posted, I'd have at least a pocketful of dimes.

I don't want a refund. I want a fucking upgrade. They told me that they will self host only for their 50Ghz shit.

Okay. Fine. I wanna upgrade my order then. Is this possible?

No.  They do not have a working prototype of anything other than their jalapeno.  You cannot do anything to change your position on delivery or on the development of their products.

Does anyone know if any more jalapenos went out last week?

I remember on the 13th Josh said that new chips were arriving and they'd use them to ship out some jalapenos that week (and for work on the singles).

I'm still confused as to why they haven't ramped up production on the singles since they started shipping them, what was it, almost a month ago?

The pessimist in me is worried that maybe there was something wrong with those early Jalapenos and they needed a redesign.

I'm not expecting 400/day right now, but I would think they would be aiming for a least 100/week right now, no? What is their plan to get through 60,000 orders?

The plan seems to be simple: Have a good salary, run of of money, go out of business.

Lets assume, Big Free Loan (BFL) business plan was:

1. Take max of possible moneys for preorders.
2. Move moneys to BTC at (1BTC/$10-) rate.
3. Wait for 1BTC/$200+ rate.
4. Now, each $1- mln become $20+ mln.

Resume:

1. We will not work FAST at now, because we ALREADY got our moneys.
2. To success leave business we will simple wait, and (may be) do something slow (we have no motivation to work at now).
3. May be we will do something like that Dev.Rev.of.Jala (who care?).

So, 100% signed :D

Guys read the infomation in this thread

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=207331.480

It is 100% certain that these guys are going to steal your money no questions asked ...!!!

They are worse than we could even have imagined !!!

You are a fool if u do not get a refund NOW !!!!

Read the above information that Phineaus Gage has discovered and I believe he has just scratched the surface....after reading this is u still believe that they are going to deliver and not STEAL your money ... u should see a doctor....

The US does have a extradition treaty with Costa Rica but say good bye to getting your money back ....u should be very very affraid by all of this !!

There's more where that came from: http://cerebro.xu.edu/~ryanr/triplesite/basenji-archive/v01.n112

"NOT some get rich quick snake oil SCAM"

i loled and i loled ...

Also the "Something i am intrested in" ....i.e dont be alarmed that it looks like a scam it is really something very wholesome and good...even though it looks like scam ..but its not because i am intrested in it so it must not be a scam....serial & for reals ..wait....wait for it .....TRUST ME !

No no that's not quite right. Have a look at this beautyful abomination

https://i.imgur.com/Obyme8qh.jpg

Loving that 1500 watt power supply. Efficiency.

Idk what to do at this point. No customer should have to go through what we're going through.

Wow, There is so much crying going on in these forums, I'm starting to wonder if it's a physical impossibility to run out of tears.

I Pre-Ordered a 60 GH/S Single in September 2012, and I'm not expecting delivery before august.

If you really can't wait anymore, just get a fucking refund... Yes they held your money for a long time for free if you ask for a refund, but just be smarter then next time. The indicators that they would not deliver on time have always been there...

The indicators are "U WILL GET NOTHING"

Its been suck a long drawn out gamble that really its so bad that its entered NIGIARAN 419 scam terrortory that as the scammee u feel that if hold on for some time more or send more money it must then pay out ...its just got too !!!

So good luck with that... 8)

P.S I got out in January..thank u jesus ..I have moved on and used my funds to mine about the same amount in coin in that time 5 times over with GPU's and LTC\BTC combinations  :D

Before August 2014 or 2015?:D

I can't imagine how choked I'd be if I was one of the few that sold off their GPU farm last summer to fund BFL ASIC purchases...  Ouch.

i think mrb did exactly this as I was one of the people that bought some of his old equipment ....hmmm

Have you already set aside the 400$ you'll need for the PSU to power that thing?

I'm pretty sure they supply a power brick, but either way buying a sufficient PSU would set me back 40$, not 400$...

Erm...I think he mean's in electricity!?

If you look in the photo above, the thing takes a 1500 Watt PSU. The cheapest price for the one pictured above is 360 Euro...

Wait, I lied. It's 359,72 €

I think you are smarter than that, and know that the BFL Single doesn't consume 1.5 KW :D.
It'll be closer to 300W, still wonder what power brick can pull 300W tho.

I wouldn't be too sure. The last point of data from BFL indicated the former minirig aka now "the minirig triplet" is currently at 3 x 3000 Watt.

That sounds about right. 500GH/s at 3000W, which is pretty similar to the 5GH/s at 30-35W for the Jalapenos that shipped and would correspond to 300W for a 50GH/s Single.

BFL has made so much money on early pre-preorders that the btc value has increased so much they could afford to refund everyone, and mine themselves and not deal with the hassle.  By how they treat their disgruntled customers and poor communication and lack of a set roadmap that they stick by this company is doomed for failure.  When they do ship it will be too late, the stain that they put on the community will be seen forever, them firing their own customers will be learned from and people will not make the same mistake again.  In the next 2-3 months before BFL actually ships maybe 30% of their orders which even then is wishful thinking, there will be many many more companies already shipping workable products, gen2 asics, asicminer shipping better, faster products, avalon shipping better, faster products.  By the time the most recent orders from BFL ship, BFL will be just a bad memory and a mistake nobody will repeat again.  BFL is digging their own grave, soon it will be the end of them, I think we have all seen companies like this in the past, they just dont last.  We can forget about ROI, maybe we'll make a few bucks to buy better cheaper products by better cheaper companies than BFL. 


If I was BFL right now and a bad lazy person, I'd want as many people to cancel as possible, they already made money with the extra BTC, and they wont have to worry about paying extra people to ship the devices or working a little bit harder.  With all the BTC and funds at their disposal, they could in theory have multiple manufacturers process these orders and get these all shipped in maybe a month or two and still have a little money left over for future endeavors.  But the thing is guys, its not about making you, the customer happy, its about them filling their pockets, planning newer products with your funds in limbo and maybe next time to it right.  But unfortunately for them, their reputation is ruined and even if they do it right, people wont trust them with their btc.

Forget about what you ordered, it doesnt matter to them, invest the little you have now in something else, forget about them for a while, and one day be a little less than surprised that your BFL order is finally at your doorstep after it doesnt matter anymore.

 

Wow... I'm surprised no-one mentioned this before? So insightful!

Too bad for BFL they immediately had every bitcoin received immediately exchanged to USD.

lol, no doubt.  TL;DR FUD with a flawed initial premise.

I'll choose to believe this as fact, regardless of BFL's actions.

Really unfortunately, I don't think this is the case.  It looks like BFL is still selling a few hundred units a day, I think it was between 250 and 400 on average.

The unwashed Internet masses are not as informed as us who follow the forums.  People are still handing over tons of cash to BFL with no idea that they stepping into a semi illegitimate boondoggle. 

In the best of cases it's a complete fabrication to promise any timely delivery of 'pre-orders' when there are untold thousands of orders before yours already made, and the company hasn't even been able to finalize a prototype yet.

I just called them right now. Their automated system said June/July orders are shipping out first this month, any newer orders are shipping July (this year). Yeah Bull Shit.

I think all the early pre-orderers are a bit upset that they could have made a ridiculous amount of money if they had gone with either Avalon or ASICMiner.  *sigh*

Now, I've been drinking, but memory serves I don't think anyone else was shipping and or close to shipping this time last year. BFL got the lion's share because they were first to pre-order. I could be wrong about the timing though.

glendall - boondoggle is a great word for this situation. two points.

Do they have affiliate programs? I'd like to promote the shit out of them.

Seeing as BFL doesn't even have a working production model of the single and the Jalapeno units they're shipping out seem to be constructed like prototypes, not on a production line. I personally wouldn't hold out much hope. They haven't demonstrated the production capacity to fill their current orders and are now selling chips as well. There is no reason to think they will deliver to you at all, let alone soon. If they were shipping 40 Jalapenos a day (which is still not many) then maybe you'd have a chance.

The only reason to hold on is if you believe they can massively increase their production in the near-term. If you really think this is possible then you might conceivably make your investment back. Try to take away the fact that you've been waiting this long and the gold-rush mentality. Then make an objective judgement.

Don't forget the imminent release and pre-ordering of their new 500 gh/s Mini-Rig anyday now...

(As mentioned at Bitcoin 2013, something about two weeks from then)

anyone want to buy a batch of BFL chips and then call them up for their consulting help in building an ASIC pcb design & manufacture??

http://www.butterflylabs.com/consulting/

Walder Frey gives BFL 2 thumbs up.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lixamvmrUw1qis07wo1_500.jpg

What could possibly go wrong?

2 Months later.. And nothing. Reminder: I am within the first month of pre-orders and I am coming from an upgrade.

If Landlord was just like BFL they would kick out BFL when they start bitching about the rent increases...Hence they are being shortsighted

So you didn't get a refund, and now you missed the train on the avalon klondikes first batches too?
You know they're going to be delivered far ahead of BFL, right?

Just because they didn't deliver yesterday, doesn't mean they are going to deliver tomorrow. Remember the Gamblers Fallacy?

Get out while you can :P

The sooner you get a refund, the sooner you can buy a quality product from people who know what they're doing.

https://megabigpower.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=61

The problem wasn't "money was tied up with bfl" it was "ordering an avalon was random and frustrating because of f-tarded order site" and "asicminer goes against everything bitcoin is about"

So ok, it would have been nice to clear a thousand bucks a day for awhile. But honestly, people are just too greedy. Whenever you get your BFL orders it's still going to make money, and it would have been stupid to not upgrade if you already had fpga gear from them.

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week. If it's in a month or 2 from now... maybe it takes 2 or 3 weeks. There's no reason after waiting this long to cancel any order imo... much less an upgrade order.

And yes I actually have a bunch of bfl orders (I even did some upgrades after the 60gh went away and the price went up - just to get discounts from my last 2 fpga). But I also have ~90k usd sitting around waiting for a legitimate hardware vendor to offer a good delivery time on a decent product.

As much as you guys want avalon and/or asicminer to be that product is just simply isn't. I can understand the geek-out over avalon chips since you can apparently actually get those. You may never regret those orders either, but you will be shutting them off much much sooner than anyone using a bfl product.

The thing everyone has to understand is... this isn't a video game, nobody gets completionist acheivements at life. So stop getting all bent out of shape and take a look at your situation with a fresh attitude. Traditional investments earning 100% per year are unheard of (except for scams)... even if it takes you a year to get what you order, once you roi in 2 weeks you shouldn't care.

Is easy to say when  you have

90k USD sitting around waiting for something cool or intresting

Sorry to say asshat but a lot of normal ppl DO NOT have this luxury..

I guess the guy with 90 k USD missed the train already, again!

(bitfury mining gear is now for sale)

If you could order now and get a single, then nobody would be upset with BFL and this thread would not exist.

And ROI for $2500 (~26 BTC) for a BFL Single ordered today, arriving today and mining at today's difficulty is a month, not a week. But that situation is impossible, since for an item ordered today to be delivered by BFL their entire back log would have to be delivered. That backlog would at least double and probably triple difficulty. So you are looking at 2 months and more likely 3 months (assuming zero growth in difficulty) for ROI to be positive on a single ordered and delivered today.

In reality, the single would not be delivered until September (if Josh finally keeps a promise about when things ship) or more likely later in the fall or even winter. That means those 2 million Avalon chips that just arrived need to be added to the hash rate as well. That is another 550 TH/s which would bring difficulty to over 80 million. Then you have to hope that neither Bitfury nor KNC deliver. You have to hope that ASICMiner doesn't dump more mining power in as well. That is a pretty grim outlook.

People who ordered from BFL last summer would have been better off just keeping their BTC instead of trying to mine for it with BFL equipment. There is no way they will earn all that BTC back.  :(

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

If you order a single now, then BFL will still use 3-4 times longer (ie, almost a year) than the others to deliver you a product, and you will be upset looking at your calendar... 6 th of May 2014, and reading on their forum... "Next week or so, we'll start shipping, I think...." ;-)

A 60GH single delivered today makes $3,410 a month, Syke and facts, bleh

 Sorta like SLok and shilling ? Bleh indeed.

Let us highlight the important FACT that is missing in that assumption... D E L I V E R E D.

people still using the 'if you held on to year old btc' arguments??

I made long posts exposing this fallacy.  The fault is that people bet on BFL to deliver and they didn't, you can't go by the btc increase.  Anything you bought with btc at that time looks dumb in hindsight.  You could of spent 300 btc on weed and you would say.. omg how much smoke i would have if i waited a year... lol

When the USBees came out, btc was around $120..  it is kinda the complete opposite situation.  A device that can't really hash too well but you gained by spending your btc then instead of holding them..  still doesn't really make that a good purchase unless you just like having them... but then they changed the price so you lose that small positive that you had..  

so future telling is a waste, you have to make the decision on what you know at the time and hedge if you are unsure

All your gunpowder gone already, and nothing left but the shill mantra? Have a better calculation perhaps? How's your lawsuit going?

Read Syke's message were I was responding on, I've highlighted it in red to make it easy for you since you had Montessori and obviously missed a lot, like comprehensive reading.

Mining hardware generates bitcoins. Not dollars. So it only makes sense to calculate ROI based on bitcoins. Bitcoins spent vs. bitcoins generated. Anything else is just to soothe your losses.

 I trust you can appreciate it's not proper to publicly discuss pending actions once lawyers have formally become involved, so you might as well stop with the futile baiting. I announced a while back that I would be going dark about specifics pertaining to my legal dispute with BFL.

 I'm afraid you're just going to have to keep wondering.

In this situation you are deciding between buying a variable return of BTC (ASIC mining equipment) or a fixed return of BTC (buying bitcoin from an exchange). In both cases, the only thing you will receive for your investment is BTC. So you can completely ignore exchange rates. If you take X amount of BTC and invest it in something that only produces BTC and receive less than X BTC back, it was a bad investment.

The USBees were never a good investment. They were priced in BTC and only produced BTC. At the original price of 2, it was highly unlikely that they would ever earn back that 2 BTC. BFL has been a bad investment for miners because no matter what the exchange rate is in the future, they would have been better off just buying/holding their BTC.

People ordered based on the promises of BFL.  Had BFL delivered when they said they would customers would not have lost money and opportunity like they have now.  BFL lied, customers cried, that's history not foretelling the future.  I do get your point though.  Also I agree with Syke that calculating ROI with a mining machine really only makes sense using BTC.  The way I see it is if you don't ROI on USD because BTC price dropped through the floor but you did ROI in BTC then the machine did make ROI but you ended up losing USD based on BTC conversion price speculation.

If it would make 20 btc a day and the btc value in $ would have dropped to $0.20, you would still have a party I guess? Fact is my jalapeno paid back the $ spent on it in 10 days.

So you don't have a better calculation, but sorry that I wasn't clearer and made you miss that I asked without really giving a f**k about your case.

 So you are effectively admitting that you are nothing more than a common troll and shill then ? Why ask then if you don't care ? I'm genuinely interested in what you are trying to accomplish here.

EDIT: Actually, it doesn't matter. Adding SLok to my ignore list.

Oh don't start him off please - I am following this and don't want to see a million posts from xian about bfl

nothing from bfl was ever priced in btc, it was always USD. You're making the mistake of attempting to hold bfl accountable for the price change in btc...

Yes, it sure sucks all those coins I mined and sold when btc was 6 bucks, or 10, or 20... sure wish I'd saved more...

Just to be the devil's advocate, what do you think BFL would have done should the value of BTC fallen by half instead of risen by ten times?

Just stopping by to say I ordered a Jalepeno (later upgraded to a Little Single) June 23 2012, I actually received the device July 03 2013. I have been mining for 2 weeks straight on it and have now recovered all $ spent on the device. I will proceed to make profits for as many days as possible from here on out. The product I received is fantastic and looks sleek as hell too! With that being said I think Butterfly Labs is a FUBAR company that has no idea how to handle a schedule. I will not purchase another device from BFL until the shipping rate is down to a week or two maximum and the price of the asics have dropped dramatically. With all this competition starting to pop up the prices will begin to drop, and there will be at least one company that outshines the rest. Whomever is the best will receive my money. Till then...FUCK BFL's bullshit!

P.S.- They gave me a coffee mug and made it all better  :)

Yes, that's right! When you get more btc than you spent, you've made a profitable investment. When you get less btc, you've lost.

It doesn't matter what the BTC exchange rate is when you buy mining equipment. It also does not matter whether the exchange rate rises or falls. You can calculate whether or not you should purchase for any given set of difficulty growth rates and starting rate.

When you buy mining equipment you are making an investment in BTC. Buying ASIC mining equipment provides a variable amount of BTC. Buying the BTC from an exchange provides a fixed amount of BTC. If you get more BTC from mining than from buying BTC off an exchange, then mining might be a good investment. If you get more BTC from the exchange than from buying mining equipment, then mining would be a bad investment.

BTC cannot have negative value, ergo (all other things being equal) more BTC is always better than less BTC.
Nobody is holding BFL responsible for the exchange rate.
BFL customers from June 2012 could not have predicted that their investment in BFL was inferior to purchasing BTC off an exchange because of the "Two More Weeks(TM)" marketing that went on.

All your comments are valid, but the question was what do you think BFL would have done?

If you had bought your hardware with $1500 worth of bitcoin, they're refunding you with $1500 worth of USD because that amount of bitcoin is now worth $15000 (for argument's sake), but if bitcoin had dropped and that amount of bitcoin was now worth $750, do you think they would have refunded you with $1500 worth of USD or with $750 worth of BTC?

I am not sure I understand the question. Regarding what exactly?

If the price of BTC fell by half from the price @ June 2012? That would put it at a price of about $4 per BTC. That might flatten the difficulty curve in the future (after all the pre-ordered ASICs are delivered to sad pandas). This would give BFL customers a better shot at breaking even in BTC terms.

The price fall would be a great opportunity to acquire BTC from exchanges, for the people who have capital available.

I am not sure how that would make BFL work bugs out faster or build units faster. Unless they have been holding units back and mining with them, which I think unlikely but possible.

Check my edit.

I purchased my Jalapenos with USD, not bitcoins.  ROI for me with postage and 2Gh cost included was about three weeks.  I guess you could say I won the speculation game by paying with dollars as bitcoins went up in value during the time it took BFL to deliver.  Had it been the other way around the people paying with bitcoins would be cheering now.  All my costs, from electricity to the mortgage I pay for the place where the Jalapenos sit is paid in anything but bitcoins.

Bitcoin is a very high risk, high reward tool.  We all understand that and accept the inherent risks.

Got it.
My position has been if customers paid with X BTC, they should be refunded with X BTC. BFL said they were putting the funds in a separate escrow and not using them for operating costs. There should have been no reason to convert the BTC to another currency under those circumstances. On one hand, BFL would have been taking a currency risk at that point because their liabilities are in USD. On the other hand, they demanded a 100% deposit instead of a more sensible 10% deposit to reserve a unit. It always baffled me why they took the pre-order funds if they were not using them for operating costs. It also makes no sense allowing someone to pay in BTC but have to give bank information (or PayPal) to get a refund.

Having said that, BFL would have probably refunded in BTC if they stood to make USD from it. If I paid a Peruvian company $100 for an Alpaca rug, I would expect $100 back upon a refund regardless of how the currencies have moved in the intervening time.


How you paid is not exactly relevant. What is relevant is how many BTC could you have bought off MtGox instead of BFL at the time you placed your order. Compare that with how many BTC you have earned to date. That is the measure of whether a mine is profitable. Can I make the commodity for less than I can buy it off the market?

Agreed. I think the behind person is too greedy while they do slowly to keep us believing us

Well, I asked BFL for a refund in Jan 2013. They ignored my request and now I lost almost everything. Thank you BFL!

How do you get a refund when the vendor ignores your requests?!

BFL is in clear violation of FTC regulations concerning the mail order rule.

If you paid with paypal, call them up (even if outside the 45 day buyer protection window offered by PP) and explain the situation.

If you paid with an alternate method the only recourse you have at this point is the FTC.

Direct link to FTC compliant form:

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=en


WHERE TO GO FOR HELP

For more information about the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule, call the Federal Trade Commission toll-free: 1-877-FTC-HELP; write: Federal Trade Commission, Consumer Response Center, 600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Washington, DC 20580; or visit: www.ftc.gov.

You also may want to contact relevant trade associations, such as the Direct Marketing Association. Contact the DMA’s Washington, DC office at: 202-955-5030; write: 1111 19th Street, N.W., Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20036-3603; or visit: www.the-dma.org.

Your local U.S. Postal Service or consumer protection agency may offer additional assistance. State and local governments also may have requirements with which you must comply. You should consult appropriate state agencies for information about laws that affect your business.




For More Information

The FTC works for the consumer to prevent fraudulent, deceptive, and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop, and avoid them. To file a complaint or to get free information on consumer issues, visit ftc.gov or call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357); TTY: 1-866-653-4261. The FTC enters consumer complaints into the Consumer Sentinel Network, a secure online database and investigative tool used by hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad.

To be honest the nails for the BFL coffin have arrived ........the avalon mass delivery of chips are hear !!!

It may be a slow death (or fast one if sonny has packed his bags with the account numbers )

But BFL are history.......or they hold true too the 60000 -(~3000 of delivered units) commitements that they have made ..instead of   all of the never ending lies and bullshit........they would needto totally change
there attitude & basically everything about them as a company in the next 30 days....lolz

yeah thats going to happen or maybe not 30 days ..how about "2 weeks" ...lolz

Indeed, I could have purchased a lot more bitcoins for the same USD mid last year than I can now and overall had more money, but I guess the question is would I have?  For me the answer is no.  Woulda, coulda, shoulda is a prime enemy for any trader.  I preferred to buy mining hardware rather than speculate on the bitcoin price itself.  Even the most enthusiastic hyper bull did not predict this year's $266 bubble in mid 2012.  In hindsight BFL's many delays cost a lot of people considerable profit.  But hindsight is 20/20 as they say and there's nothing that can be done about it now.  If anyone can confirm that a bitcoin will be worth $2k this time next year however please feel free to drop me a line  :-X

Ultimately for me bitcoin is a way to make USD and then convert them to my home currency to actually use.  Pretty much any commodity is the same, whether it's gold, silver, platinum, oil, etc.  The value has to be measured against the currency of the realm.  I can't go into my local supermarket with 1/20oz of gold and buy groceries, and neither can I spend a bitcoin there.

^Absolutely.
You made a trading decision based on flawed data (the estimated difficulty level at the time BFL ships your unit). Only hindsight would reveal the extent of BFL's delays. I was not expecting you to divine this back in June 2012.  ;)

Just remember what you have learned and apply it today. Lesson learned. BFL = footnote in Bitcoin History.

I am waiting for them to do mass shipping.

Nothing like disappointed customers to make your day.

Now exactly 1 month later. And they are barely at the end of August orders while Jalapenos and Little Singles are way ahead.

Reminder: I am within the first month of pre-orders and I am coming from an upgrade.

This sucks. I am tired of hearing employees from BFL saying: "You obviously don't know how Bitcoin difficulty works" Implying that if they shipped on time, or delayed like they are now, profits would be the same.

1. They're not the only ones shipping ASICs
2. If we would have gotten our ASICs when the price of Bitcoins were going up Q1, we'd have a lot of earnings.
3. Bitcoin halving nears

I have 2 Singles coming from an group-buy upgrade ordered July 15. I basically can't get a refund.

I have had 2 dreams so far of my Asics coming in the mail.

/Rant over

Has anyone actually got a refund form a bank TX or BTC after they started shipping and took the no refunds route???

Just curious, Am sure your correct, they are outside the law by not honoring refunds, but getting refunded may take longer than getting product or bankruptcy (lets face it once the last order ships there business is toast).

Got refund without any problems. The whole process took 8 days. Details: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=268283.msg2978545#msg2978545

Its hard to decide if take refund when you can receive the unit anytime. They should show the queue of order numbers + products they will ship

Thanks baloo, I had found it. Am really considering this now after the latest..
However there is still no comparable product off shelf so I may give it a few weeks.

Must check out how bitfurys doing... ;)

Not anytime. You can estimate time left by their shipping log https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/
Order rate can be estimated from here http://bfl.ptz.ro/

In my case the order was 3 months ahead of currently shipping order date, so I definitely couldn't get it 'anytime'.

Yes I feel like BFL has kept us on our toes about this "Anytime" for a long time.

Wow still on July 4th for singles:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/303-wednesday-august-21-2013-shipping-update.html#comment7527

This is getting ridiculous..

Aren't you glad that "products are shipped according to placement in the order queue"? Just think how mad you would be if people who ordered months after you got their products before you.

No longer starting to get fucking pissed... guessing you are pissed now. So what's the plan? Keep waiting?

Do your part.

Just upgrade to the MONARCH! ;)

Finally gave up and requested a refund. Oct 4th trade in for 60 GH unit. Since it was only ~$750 and I paid with PayPal, ROI was looking pretty good even with the delays. Now that I see how slow the singles are trickling out, I think I'd make a few hundred bucks, but not worth it any more. No way is that thing shipping out this month, much less the 30GH I ordered in April right before the price increase.

Good luck! Let us know in a couple weeks how long/arduous/painful the process of getting your refund out of BFL is. Mine took a month.

You can't make this shit up. THEY ARE ALREADY DELAYING the new 600GH Monarch miner - https://forums.butterflylabs.com/monarch-discussion/4420-what-monarch-group-order.html

Like I posted in their forums:

Orders paid with PayPal should have no problems at all. Just email directly to PP and report fraud: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0

Everything has been going according to plan.

They have done very, very well for themselves. At your collective expense.

BFL measures success by one metric, and it is "sales" made, NOT product delivered.

You shouldn't be the slightest bit confused. But you should be angry.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/forum.php

http://s15.postimg.org/732ovzw6z/bfl_clock.jpg

Done when he first posted it.

Hope you get your refund quickly.

You can also do it online at https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

Yes he did mine it... but "before you owned it" according to their defense of the lawsuit.

What the people who got burned by Marto should do as well.

OP, are you still fucking pissed?  ;D

I want to know as well!

i was also a BFL customer and I'm still fcking pissed. BFL shutdown does not do justice for me. I want Josh, Sonny, Jody, Nassier ...etc, go to jail and asset seized.

I say 2 outta 5 is a given.

Why not Josh too? Wasn't him the main voice in relation with customers? And the one that was lying about delivery dates every time he had the chance? Isn't that a crime?