Bitcoin Forum

Are you people following what is happening in Turkey?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22740282

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/01/world/europe/police-attack-protesters-in-istanbuls-taksim-square.html?ref=world&_r=2&

http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2013/06/01/nuit-blanche-pour-des-milliers-de-stambouliotes-en-colere-contre-le-gouvernement_3422104_3214.html

I am Turkish, but I live abroad. From what I can gather, this will be bigger and bigger at least over the weekend.  People are talking about toppling the government. There is some talk about a possible EU parliement intervention (Turkey is an official EU candidate country).

How do you think this will end? Do you think the EU would actually do something?

I should say, my heart is with the demonstrators. I open the thread to discuss, and maybe post some info about the developments. In case any of you are interested.

If the US is behind it like in Egypt then the government will fall. Otherwise it will survive.

Ah, fatalism... Not the sipirit I expected from this forum.

I don't think the US has anything to do with it. Erdogan had a very friendly meeting recently with Obama, if you want.

That doesn't really mean anything. I can show you images of presidents shaking hands and smiling with other leaders, months, or even weeks, sometimes, before the US took down that country.

Yeah sure.

So you guys don't believe in spontenous self organization of the masses. There is always a hidden hand behind the curtain?

So the bitcoin succeeded because ...?

Now, I didn't say that. It's entirely possible that this is a legit mass protest. If so, I wish them luck. But like Elwar said, without the support of the World Police^®, they're not very likely to succeed.

http://showdiscontent.com/

http://showdiscontent.com/img/kirmizi.jpg

I honestly don't know what to make of this picture, it looks like some asshole cops decided to harass some people in a park, and set up a riot line to make sure nobody escaped their attention.

I mean, counting the photographer, there's only 4 people on this side of the riot shields. Maybe the real action is off to the right of frame?

This was 3-4 days ago I think. before the whole thing started.

It is one of the symbolic images that helped start the riots.

Now it looks more like this:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/404486_10151505617354807_147939365_n.jpg

Now that is a picture. I recently saw a gallery on Google+ of some pictures with captions detailing what is going on, I'll try to share it here, But I make no guarantees that it will work.

Here is the gallery. (https://plus.google.com/photos/109632642190439717113/albums/5884567686021280497/5884567682053985442) (looks like it works OK, let me know if not, and I'll share them here manually)

Apparently this started with about 50+ people sleeping at the park to protect the trees. Mostly artists, intellectuals etc.

It is the actions of the police that turned it into an all out riot. They tore down the tents, they used tear gas on everyone, they terrorized the whole city (and still continue in some parts of the city). And people got pissed. In the end it was like using antibiotics (unsuccessfully) to fight disease.

Now it is everywhere. There are demonstrations in Ankara, Izmir, Adana, Bursa and other cities...

I've never seen anything like this in my life time.

People started walking from the Asian side last night, and kept coming to the European side in the morning an throughout the day to occupy the Taksim square. In the end the cops had to pull back and leave the square... People are still pouring there. I had news from my friends who went there and got sprayed with tear gas. Even my uncle went there.

Here's a good one:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gReB_Gzt63Y/UanpCfX0PGI/AAAAAAAABFs/ZeO6Xg2JIfI/w531-h330-no/970830_10151472348952913_1195005508_n.jpg

'The revolution is now!'

http://www.iamsatoshi.com/information-primary-commodity/ (http://www.iamsatoshi.com/information-primary-commodity/)

These are people crossing the bridge from the Asian side to the European side to help the people in Taksim square.

Intercontinental solidarity :)

Sure I do, I wish them the best of luck.

But with the lack of purpose and just anger, they will end up just like Occupy Wall Street.

If it were a CIA operation, the work would already be going on behind the scenes to turn the protest into a government take-over. Like Egypt and Iran in '78.

These guys are clearly not 'organized' for some purpose. No political movement, no ideology. It is really pure frustration by common people against authoritarianism. At least this is what it looks like.

To be frank, I'd doubt that they could topple the government. I am not sure if that is what they want either. I think if the government said "ok we cancel the plan to demolish the park" and pulled the cops back, they may as well go back home.

And frankly, that would be the best result for all involved. Historically, when a mob topples a government over an unpopular policy, the end result is not good. Now, if they had a goal in mind, something other than inchoate rage, then they might be able to get something done. Probably still end up bad, but at least there's a chance.

Hrmm, most states seem to do a great job keeping anarchism on the hush-hush, so it's not likely they'd try anything.  I'd be utterly shocked if they knew what they were doing:


With this in mind, it's almost guaranteed they're all just pissed off and have no idea what they really want out of it, aside from showing a whole lot of discontent.

Except that "Ataturk" was an extreme secularist and the current government has "islamic roots". So what the education system thought to people older than 20-25 is in complete contradiction to the point of view of the current government.

However the current government is successful economically. And they are not really "islamists". They are more like the Christian democrats in Europe, I guess.

So, while I agree, there is some twist.

If I were one of those cops, I would need a change of pants.

As of the early morning of monday 03 june:

The events have further spread accross the country. Taksim square is now completely under the control of demonstrators. But the police violence continues elsewhere in the country including Ankara (the capital). They use the tear gas to punish people rather than try to push them anywhere. In any case, the tear gas is becoming completely useless because people now know what to expect, and they still come back when the gas is gone.

Apparently the demonstrators in Taksim square are still decidedly peaceful. There were no widespread vandalism (except against police cars, and a pastry shop owned by the mayor), and the demonstrators were picking up the trash sunday morning. It is apparently more like a festival at this point, with a collective music group playing "ciao bella" etc.

There are widespread complaints by people that the local media is playing it down. All the mainstream news channels continue with their daily routine. When the events were taking place, cnn-turk, ntv, haber-turk (local mainstream news channels) were showing documentaries on penguins or cooking shows.

I am not sure if this will continue into the week with this kind of intensity, especially with Erdogan leaving the country until Thursday.

One thing that became clear is that, we need a sort of police technologies information database. For instance a website which keeps track of the crowd control technologies that the police use (tear gas, pepper spray, orange gas etc.) by country, and develop methods of fighting against them. While people are rather creative: they build their makeshift masks and stuff, it could be more efficient if there were more individuals who were already prepared.

I remember from while I lived in the US, the cops would have some fake demonstrations (with actors who were also cops I guess), to train for the actual demonstrations in the school's parking lot. This was at the time of the Iraq war, and I later saw them use those tactics against us, when we were demonstrating against the war.

it sez:

"Before the police started gassing people, the gezi park occupation was like this. Those who don't see it or don't show it have no shame."

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/q71/s480x480/931290_488520404553531_390282270_n.jpg

Ok, there it is.

I flew in last night to Istanbul and I was finally at taksim today. It looks surreal.

At this time the park was full of young people (mostly students). There were stands of small leftist organizations, green/ecological ngo's, universities and gay and lesbian organizations. The taksim square (as opposed to the park), was occupied by leftist political parties. there was an open air library and a makeshift 'revolution museum'.

The police has left the square to the people last Saturday. The place is being run by citizen organisations for a week now. It is actually particularly well organized. There are now people selling stuff also, from gas masks, to various flags to watermelons. While I was there, they were anouncing that people shouldn't buy stuff from commercial stands but rather share it from the free ones.

Police says that they will not do anything until Monday. We'll see what they will do afterwards. I hope taksim stays like this. It would be a monument of what the people can do.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/images/news/201306/n_48234_4.jpg
Anyone got some info on btc addresses for people there?

Go there and ask 'em. :)

I could organize a bitcoin aid campaign if need be. Right now, the whole country is watching the events there, so the people who are staying there are supported by everyone in the country. I don't feel like they need material help at this point. I was there for a big demonstration yesterday, and it was so crowded, I could only stay for an hour. There was an old woman on the metro going to taksim, wearing a Guy Fawkes mask playfully to scare what looked like her granddaughter.

Another thing is that I don't want to be personally responsible for the transfer of a lot of bitcoins to the right people. So my suggestion would be that if the government tries to censor the internet etc. As the bitcoin community, we can provide high quality, paid vpn services for the people at the park.

That way those who want to contribute may pay for the vpn service directly and I would publish the information for these vpn accounts in turkish over facebook etc. to the organizers. I am not sure if this would be feasible in practice, but this is what I thought would make sense.

However, right now, this does not seem to be an issue either. The people are impossible to convince to use vpn (or open source alternatives to facebook or twitter), unless there is a problem with them (I know, it is stupid, but this is how it is).

I stayed there the night on saturday. I talked to some random people about bitcoins among other things. I can say that there is no awareness whatsoever about bitcoins in Turkey.

Thank you.
I'm going to do my best to get some btc sent your way via the OWS Library. Hopefully, you can use them to spread awareness, whether its demonstrating how to use them or using them for flyers ect. How do you feel about this idea?

Hi,

I haven't contacted the people that organize the library. I will go and talk to them, next time I go to taksim, which may take a while, because I need to attend a conference this week.

I don't think they will accept monetary donation, but I'll let you know what they tell me.

My primary concern is, collectivist movements tend to look down on anything that has to do with money, and often for good reason. Therefore I would suggest a more generic privacy awareness campaign, which I think is becoming an essential need in Turkey. This can cover providing free VPN access, introduction to sharing information and trading privately, circumventing government censorship, and most importantly an initial discussion about what can be done in case of an Internet blackout.

While we would all agree on a goal to create an environment which would remove these needs, it's important to note that governments are more inclined to implement laws that are enforceable. So even if there isn't an ongoing rampant abuse by the State (which seems to be the case in Turkey anyway), widespread privacy awareness would be a deterrent by itself.

I'm curious about the similarities between Taksim and OWS.
Are they using a General Assembly consensus model for mass decision making?
Have they pooled funds based around working groups, ie flyer making, food distribution, march organization?
Are there treasurers of any kind in these groups or the group at large?

As far as donations go, I think a proof of concept viral 'tip demonstration' might do more good than a monetary donation per se. For example, reddit btc tips turning into more tips, allowing for wider possibility of adoption.

The police attacked taksim, starting from this morning.

I tried to go there tonight with some foreigners, but we turned back as soon as we got tear gas. People I was leading didn't have the stomach to continue. I assume that the library is destroyed (it was in the park but near the square) but I may be wrong. We'll see about it soon. I'll try to go there tomorrow with some more experienced folks.

Good for you gurcani.

I find it disgusting how much our media is a tool of the government. During the Egyptian riots they considered it an uprising to take over the government and covered it like there was good chance for an overthrow of the government.

For this one they talk about the difficulty the Turkish government is facing against these protesters.

the library is apparently flooded due to water cannon attacks:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1010514_490364707703334_1909523205_n.jpg

Hey, I'm all against any governments  BUT:

What do you expect of police if it's provoked with rocks and Molotov cocktails?
I view these violent protesters as a worse thing.

They demolish their own country.
It's not the case with countries like Egypt and Turkey, but they call for intervention.
In the short run change of government is for the worse.
Instead of your dictator you will get a whole room of greedy politicians who cannot agree on what they want, will spend your money to advertise themselves, will suck more money than your dictator in the end.
 In the very end you will be run by jewish banks and other puppeteers.

If we look at Syria insurgency - it's a bunch of foreign mercenaries, or plunderers enjoying overseas support, while on a rape run. They are not your freedom fighters.

If it isn't a protest against islam then it needs to become that. It would really be the best thing for the region. The best thing for Turkey would be overthrow of the current government and a return to something secular... combined with the EU pulling prospective status over it.

Though I agree that violent protest is not the answer, many of the protesters were not being violent.  It was the police who initiated violence against the citizens they're supposed to protect.  If this were true, the police would've stand down and left the protesters alone: what, then, separates a mercenary from official government force?  Who do the police work for?

Hi,

I couldn't post an update because I was in the park for a few days, and I only had emergency internet access.

The atmosphere (when I was there) was rather calm. I met artists, students, teachers and all kinds of other people.

The cops attacked only on tuesday (while I wasn't there), I tried to reach the park, but apparently they managed to push most of the people out, and I didn't have the proper gear against tear gas, so I ended up going back to Karakoy.

Now, apparently the PM has stepped a bit back. He says certain things which can be interpreted positively. The people in the park were discussing how to interpret those. He is also organizing a huge meeting of his own with his supporters, to show his power.

I don't know what will be decided. Apparently the leftist groups are willing to stop the occupation while the greenpeace groups want to continue. To me, it sould continue until the police that has killed people be properly punished.

FWIW, rocks appeared long after the sweeping attack by the police. By the time people started throwing rocks, many protesters had already been injured. Molotov cocktails appeared very briefly after many such attacks by the police for a week, and the police's reaction to these appeared less severe than their initial offense (back when they were attacking sleeping tent dwellers).


Turkey is still pretty much secular, so you'd need a precautionary reaction against a potential threat to secularism. These already happened many times in Turkey, and resulted in this situation.

Precautionary rhetoric in general, regardless of the subject, is prone to turning into religion itself.


I think it should continue until things start moving about legislative, even constitutional change. Don't think it will happen though, since it requires a political consensus. If the Turkish left could do that, AKP wouldn't be in power in the first place.

This was never about the trees, so I hope the protesters don't try to build on that topic this late in the game. It has been a victory so far, but now they need to let the government build what it wants to build.

The decision from the Taksim Collective (Taksim Dayanisma) has been to continue the occupation. I don't think they could decide otherwise, since even if only the greenpeace people said that they would stay, nobody would leave. They have also decided to organize under a more coherent organization scheme, which includes very disparate groups such as ODP,BDP, TKP, IP, CHP, etc.

There are people saying that this may turn into a bloodbath. I doubt that, but it is not completely impossible with the government supporters planned meeting in Kazlicesme on Sunday. I would expect a police attack on Tuesday or Wednesday.

So far the tactics have been to leave when the police comes and to come back when they leave. I hope with this new sense of organization, they don't try to defend the park. I think that would be stupid.

If the police decides to occupy taksim themselves, I think the protesters should simply move the headquarters, and wait. If they decide to demolish the park with a police occupation. That can be done (logistically) but it would be a horrible blow to the image of Tayyip, who has already suffered quite a bit. People who had postive opinions of him a few years back are now drawing parallels between him and Kenan Evren (the turkish general responsible for the coup d'etat of 1980).

I was there last night. The cops attacked the park around 20:45. I was trying to take photos of the police and suddenly saw the gas canisters coming at us. I had my mask and a bicycle helmet I put on in panic, and started moving out of the park, helping people around me without masks. It was pretty crazy. They used tear gas, pepper gas, and something which made me want to vomit very strongly even behind my half-face mask.

But in a few hours, there was a huge crowd. People were saying that, this was much larger than  31 May. We ran away from the park but when the police stops people stop running and gather around and go back. The police will be pretty tired. I went home around 3:00 am last night. There is talk about reinforcements from other cities.

Now the police is arresting people (even some people from their homes). Apparently military police (genderme) was used in mecidiyekoy to stop people from crossing the bridge. I think tonight will be pretty crazy also.

this is what I shot friday night. I was pretty much at the front line,
when the thing started:

https://vimeo.com/user18982678/videos

the videos are not in correct order. the first one is the "dancing people" the second one is the "escape from gezi", and the last one is the "escape from gezi 2"

this is the new phenomenon:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22949632

This guy was arrested at the end of the day together with a number of people standing with him. Today there are many people standing in Taksim.

I was in Istanbul from 6 June until today. I'll be leaving tomorrow.

I have mixed feelings. I was pretty much involved in anything that happenned after the initial uprising (31 May). I got gassed, was hit by pepper ball bullets, kicked and batoned by the police. All I have as a result is a cough and a diarrhea that seems to have died off, as of today.

Here are the videos that I shot:

https://vimeo.com/user18982678/videos

Right now the park is under government control, and the taksim square is protected as if it was a war zone, frontier outpost. There are police barricades from Harbiye and Gumussuyu. The only pedestrian entrance to the square is via Istiklal and Siraselviler.

While the government continue to act as if they are in control. They have already retreated from their positions, quite a bit. For example they have announced that they will organize a referandum for the fate of the park. They also announced that they will respect the court order (the court has issued an order to stop the development of the park). They are actually planting more trees in the park, to look positive.

They have also defacto accepted the right to spontaneous demonstrations. This last weekend there were hundreds of thousands of people demonstrating in different parts of Istanbul to protest the release of the police officer who killed Ethem Sarisuluk (a protester, who was killed in Ankara by a bullet in the head). In the past, the government would attack such demonstrations and try to disperse the people. Today, they content with just holding the taksim square.

I was there during the last police attack this saturday. The police announced that we should empty the square. We didn't, and they attacked in force. Unfortunately my recording for the initial phase of the attack was lost when I dropped my camera while recording.

In any case, I think the events of June, was an important, unforgettable experience for the Turkish people. They have realized that they can g oout into the street and make a mess if the government pisses them off. Turks didn't have this idea before.

Another interesting thing is that the park and the surrounding region, was under the control of the protestors from 1st of june to 15 of june:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouVxXkwExHw

during this time there was no government authority. No police force, no army, nothing in around Taksim. Yet the crime rate was virtually zero. There was no looting, virtually no vandalism (accept police vehicles and a pastry shop owned by the municipal of Istanbul), no harrassement (even though there were young girls sleeping in the park alone), and no in fighting (even though there were ideologically opposing groups staying in the park).

Now people are organizing forums in parks accross the country to discuss how to proceed:

http://www.bianet.org/english/youth/147740-every-park-become-gezi-park-in-turkey

Personally I prefer direct resistance to the police. But I also hope that this turns into something bigger than itself and define the political landscape in Turkey in the future.

I call bullshit. Huge crowd of violent hoodlums is bound to cause damage. Shop window, passerby's head, car - equally good targets for a brick. Those policemen are simple men, just like you, trying to keep country in order, just to get their heads bashed in. Even if some 5% of protesters act on a decent cause, the rest of them are what they are: adrenaline junkies, seeking to channel their frustration and violent tendencies.

There was a protest in Brazil recently, now that was quite peaceful.

I've never heard about passersby's getting injured by an attack by the protesters. Any sources you can cite? There have been many injuries caused by the police to people who were minding their own business, even in their own workplaces.


How did you get that impression? That's the complete opposite of what is really going on. The evidence is out there. I suggest you stop reading your favorite commentaries and begin to collect raw information and interpret for yourself.

Right, but this wasn't a crowd of violent hoodlums. These are common folks who no longer fear the police violence. These are middle class people who are sick of the authoritarian erdogan government imposing every aspect of their lives.

As an example, I gave a tour of gezi park, when it was liberated (the park was under the control of the protesters between 1-15 june), to my 60+ years old american physics professor. His only complaint was that it was too crowded and hot.

Remember, the thing started with greenpeace activists reading books at the park. The police came and gassed those people and burned their tents. Afterwards everyone came to the park, hundres of thousands. Even famous turkish film stars, people from all proffessions. These were no hoodlums. The police gassed them nonetheless. They actually left the square so that people would think that they left and gather to the square and gassed them at once to deliver the gas most effectively (rather than using it to disperse the crowd).

Another example, on 22 june, when the police entered istiklal street a group of 50 or so police officers were trapped between tens of thousands of demonstrators chanting things like "killers" (they shot a guy called ethem sarisuluk in the head in ankara). I was right behind the police (there were demonstrators on both sides of the police). When the police were afraid and wanted to pull back to taksim square, the demonstrators organized them to pass unharmed. We tried to hold those of us who looked too angry. Once they passed, they started gassing us nonetheless.

I agree that the police are mostly just simple men. In fact they are much better than the turkish police I know from my youth (famous for making people disappear). It is what they are ordered to do, and the fact that they follow those unlawful orders that makes them enemy of the people.

I have seen them (with my own eyes) launching tear gas grenade inside a cafe, where there were only unprotected civilians who weren't even chanting slogans. I attempted to save those people but I couldn't (tear gas in a closed space is horrible). In the end they were saved by one of the protestors who had an army issued mask.

Please read other sources. Just avoid Turkish government propaganda, even NYT or BBC are reasonable in terms of reporting.

Don't judge this with your old prejudices, the gezi park incident is pretty unique. I think it was facilitated by a sort of collective consciousness that appeared due to the technological connections now possible between people and an exceptionally authoritarian state.

I have never seen anything like this in my lifetime, in none of the three countries that I have lived. I have never heard of anything like this either.

Here is an example from the spirit of gezi:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/arts/music/music-in-istanbul-is-intermission-for-a-protest.html?_r=0

Another example of how people supporting "occupy gezi" are not hoodlums:

http://rt.com/news/turkish-police-lawyers-courthouse-534/

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMemuwQCYAAglXg.jpg

I was there:

http://rt.com/news/turkish-twitter-protest-organizers-arrest-406/

this was basically a mourning event for the death of Ethem Sarisuluk. People came with flowers. The police started announcing that we have to clear the square for traffic. We didn't (but we didn't do anything either). They came with their shields to push us out. At this point you can see what the protestors are throwing at the police. Yes, flowers.

Yes eventually, they started using gas, and a very small group started throwing stones at them (with a larger group trying to convince them to stop throwing stones, I was one, so I know from personal experience). At the end of the night, the police was shooting plastic bullets, pepper balls, pepper gas canisters aimed at people. They went  completely mad.

http://rt.com/files/news/1f/97/e0/00/000_par7594072.jpg

Can't protesters just occupy something in a way, that police cannot nitpick? :) like not blocking traffic, or dividing in large group on a sidewalks?

I know that it sounds silly...

long but interesting piece both showing the american perspective (i.e. total indifference), and a reasonably objective account of what happened in taksim:

http://www.city-journal.org/2013/eon0628cb.html

This saturday's account (29/06/13) from a close friend who was there:

"I was near tunel around 18:00. I think there was a gathering there. But there wasn't too many people. There was a toma (crowd control vehicle, with a water cannon on top of it) and some police. I walked towards taksim, as I was going to meet my friend there. There was a demonstration about the events in Lice near Galatasaray highschool. (note: The soldiers fired on demonstrators near the town of Lice and killed one kurdish boy who was demonstrating against the construction of a military headquarters in their town). I had hard time going through. I arrived at the square, there were no demonstrators, and around the statue it was full of police (this is around 18:20). I called my friend and learned that he wasn't coming. I went back towards Galatasaray high school. I joined the demonstrators protesting the events in Lice, and we entered the square together around 19:00. We did a sit-down protest on the square. The new slogans were "everywhere is Lice, everwhere is resistance" (note: derived from everywhere is taksim, everywhere is resistance, probably the most popular slogan of the movement), "Kurdistan will be the tomb of fascism", "biji biratiya gelan" (note: kurdish slogan which I don't understand). Around 20:30 the taksim solidarity (taksim dayanisma), declared the event over. I thought there would be no more action and left to go home. Apparently they started the attack about half an hour later"

Finally what I could learn from the few independent media organizations in Turkey, that they have attacked people to clear the square and arrested some 10-15 people. They've used tear gas as usual but apparently it was less intense than the usual. One claim is that they used plastic bullets and paint guns. I am not sure if the paint gun was really just paint gun or rather pepper balls (this is what they usually use, which also paints your clothes, and may make the journalists think that it is just paint gun), since I don't know anyone personnally who was subjected to the attacks this time.