Bitcoin Forum

The Bitcoin price is amazingly high, and it has stayed amazingly high for quite some time. I've been expecting it to crash for the last year, and I was especially expecting it to crash in response to the various B2X nonsense, but it's still quite high. These high prices may well be long-term-stable. Therefore, since we gentlemen are in fact the new wealthy elite, I think that the time has come to work toward a project that I know a lot of early Bitcoiners (including myself) have always dreamed of: a mostly-sovereign libertarian seastead. There must be a lot of Bitcoin millionaires who would be willing to work toward this.

The Seasteading Institute (TSI) has an example seastead design (https://www.seasteading.org/engineering/clubstead-design/) with a total estimated cost of $115 million with room for 270 people. So that'd be an average of $425,000 per person up-front, plus a yearly maintenance cost of $13,000 per person. IMO it should be fairly easy to fund something this size from Bitcoiners, and you could probably go even bigger/better. TSI has already done a ton of research/engineering work and built a ton of connections, so a project to actually build something like this would have a great head-start.

The main goal of seasteading is to have a jurisdiction with minimal-possible regulation and government involvement, creating a space for extreme innovation. Like Hong Kong, but even better. At least to start with, you'd probably have to officially be under some government's jurisdiction (via a special agreement with that government), but it will hopefully be possible to keep this very minimal. TSI has already had some success in negotiating this stuff with some governments. Another goal would be to create a good environment for the people living on the seastead: fast Internet (maybe via laser links), high security, overall good facilities, etc.

Who here is interested in participating in this, and what would you want a seastead to have before living on one? I'm not going to collect any money from people, but if there's enough interest (maybe $75 million or so), we can hire some people who actually know what they're doing and create a proper company with a board of directors, etc. Maybe it could even be made into an ICO, though I'm pretty skeptical of those in general.

https://2oxut21weba5oivlniw6igeb-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/02.jpg

Putting aside my thoughts about the stability of the $7800+ BTC pricepoint at this point in time, how about we don't follow in the steps of fictional villains (http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Andrew_Ryan#Creation_of_Rapture)? Even if we did, politically extreme utopian societies don't really have a good track record (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes). Then again maybe an echo chamber of rich guys in the middle of the ocean will work better.

Yet for some reason I haven't heard of any major scale project that pulled it off. Could it be that the unpredictability of the sea (extreme weather conditions, piracy, political pressures) isn't exactly the best place to permanently house hundreds of people? Though again, who knows? Maybe tech reached a point as to where it's already possible though I'm still thoroughly skeptical in regards to possible external issues.

Any sovereign micro-nation in the middle of literally nowhere, who isn't associated with a world power (or is an offshore tax haven), is sooner or later going to either face "liberation" or a coup (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand#Attack_in_1978_and_the_Sealand_Rebel_Government) (lust for power tends to corrupt). Take it from the guy whose nation was annexed by, no, I'm sorry, "voluntarily joined" the USSR. Also, Hong Kong? So, restrictions on freedom of the press, crackdowns on protestors and covert surveillance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong#Human_rights) with China breathing down your neck.

Throwing money to run away from society's problems seems a bit childish TBH. I mean it does work if you have astronomical amounts of it but a few mil isn't going to be enough to patch up any of the aforementioned holes once they pop up. Then again if this was some sort of a temporary hotel / resort (as the Seasteding Institute's linked design mentioned), it might work though I really think this is going to cost way beyond several million dollars each.

bitcoin price is high because people simply hold it, and market it, if their mindset changes the market collapses

Very great stuff sir.. I think it's 100% doable!   There are numerous ways to source for  funds... ICO is certainly part of them. It will most likely be one of very few ICOs that is unique and VIABLE. Would be great to see most of the city automated and run on an extraordinary level of transparency.

I seriously would want this to be a success whether am part of the city or not. World leaders need to be know that Nations can be ran without large and wasteful governments/bureaucracies

The city will serve as model to the entire World. The current approach to governance and city dwelling are quite limiting, outdated and primitive. I am a believer this project.
I am truly glad you'll be part of it.

Automated? Unless you plan to surround the city with advanced auto-targeting turrets than can tell friend from foe and use a nearly-sentient AI to solve any infrastructure issues that pop up (such as damaged buildings, maintenance, medical emergencies, etc.), this is far from automated.

It can if the populace is comprised of like-minded millionaires. Not quite sure how you could apply that model to regular countries with massive and diverse populations without it ending up in the usual "massive mansions surrounded by slums" scenario many east Asian countries seem to exhibit.

All this would ever be is a rich boys club at best or a tax haven for shady and immoral corporations to prosper at worst. While I'll agree that the current governing model is prone to corruption, solving the issue of people breaking the rules by removing most of said rules seems counter-intuitive. If you think this would be a great "model to the entire World" and aren't a millionaire, your ignorance truly baffles me.

I think, Roger Ver & Olivier Janssens are trying something similar - https://www.freesociety.com/

Things to watch out for, to be sure, but past and fictional failures shouldn't prevent us from trying to create better societies.


That's why to start with you have to fly the flag of some country under a special agreement. Then any attacks will be equal to an attack on the flag country. Long-term, once there are a lot of seasteads, they can build their own independent militaries and work together for mutual defense.


Libertarianism isn't just for the wealthy. In fact, the reverse is true: today, the wealthy have unprecedented control via their huge influence over governments; as a result, the rich get richer and the poor are kept in their place. A seastead would at first probably be populated mostly by higher-income people due to the great initial expense, but over time this'd change. People go where opportunities are, and a minimally-regulated seastead will offer tons of opportunities for everyone. With the sweat of your brow, a seastead can become your city as well! ;)

And while I support a libertarian seastead, the great thing about seasteading is that you can create many seasteads with different societies. If you want a mixed-economy government with whatever measures against corruption you think will work, you could do it.


I would be happy if they succeed at the stated goals, but I don't trust those guys at all...

Honestly, this just sounds like picking uncontrolled corporations working as intended (maximum profits at the expense of everyone else) over governments that aren't (corruption, inefficiency, etc.). The "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" would simply be the intended result rather than an unfortunate consequence. As much as you people seem to go on how "authoritarian" the US is (I mean mass surveillance does seem to be a massive issue), you seem to take a lot of the things for granted. It starts from small things like general safety after dark (even in the capital, stepping out after dark without a group isn't exactly considered safe) or having to pay western Europe prices with eastern Europe wages to more broad issues like not having to fear for "liberation" from our former "friends" from the East. All of which really makes me question whether any of you understand what libertarianism truly entails in the old world or do you just not care?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but libertarianism hinges on as much individual social and economic freedom as possible, right? Which means price gouging on vital medicinal goods (see the Epipen price gouging scandal (https://www.forbes.com/sites/arleneweintraub/2016/12/01/mylan-ceo-bresch-admits-full-responsibility-for-epipen-price-hikes/#146c4e0f393c)), de-facto oligopolies that crackdown on any rising competition (see Internet providers in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly#United_States)), exploitative business practices on both the employee (extremely long working hours, low wages, unpaid overtime, fired after a project) and consumer (Skinner box-based pricing schemes, thinly veiled gambling schemes available to children, etc.) sides (see Electronic Arts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts#Treatment_of_employees)), uncontrolled environmental pollution (see oil and coal industries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_power_in_the_United_States#Environmental_impacts)), a higher education system that sets you back decades financially (unless you happen to be a genius or have rich parents) and a healthcare system where a person has to wear a vest warning others not to call an ambulance when he has a seizure since that would cost him a third of his monthly paycheck are all fine since they don't violate any rights if you don't use these (often vital) goods and / or services, right?

Hell, all of this is under the US's so called "authoritarian" capitalism. How about child labor, piss poor working conditions and wages (since everyone's gotta eat and there's always someone looking for work), pollution to the point where wearing protective masks is mandatory if you don't want to die by 40 from lung cancer, healthcare financially off-limits to a big chunk of the working class? Even if we were to ignore all of this and assume that hard work = wealth, what about the elderly, who are incapable of working anymore, the mentally or physically disabled, the people who got fucked over / used and disposed of afterwards by the aforementioned exploitative individuals / corporations? Are you going to just leave them to die? If not, where are you going to get the money from? The bare minimum taxes that'll already be spread thin in order to maintain security and basic infrastructure?

Call me cynical, but I think I might be living in a different world, 'cause yours sounds like candyland.

Fair points. Can't really object or add to anything here.

It always amazes me how a well rendered picture of the human equivalent to an ant colony - pictured during nice weather - fosters fantasy of the new-rich.

"Childish" doesn't even come anywhere near to describe this.

If you really do not know what to do with your easily gained riches, write me a PM and we'll work something out for sure.

Took me a while to dig this out, just reminded me about an old idea seemingly abandoned by creator: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1964768.msg19532430#msg19532430

Setting aside my own natural scepticisms and reservations on libertarian societies, most painfully obvious to me is the propensity of individualism to somehow emerge as the dominant threat to those ideals, I wonder if there would be an opportunity for other "talents" to also participate? Perhaps not as a resident but someone who'd (seriously) contribute external to this development team?

At current price, even "21-Club" members would barely have half of the required amount. Can't say for sure these people would want to reveal themselves either.

I do agree though: just because history remembers the (many) failures of such extreme ideas, shouldn't mean we shouldn't continue trying.

architects have a lot to plan but you need a huge enslaved world population for this and a pyramid structure to realise it,

thats not working with the banksters we have currently they are broken and uncooperative.

regards

I actually liked the whole idea but when I saw "$115 million with room for 270 people", two things came into my mind ----someone wants to make a profit or someone doesn't know what they are getting into. Building structures on the sea can be extremely expensive. The deeper you go the more expensive it gets. The STI conducts research, they haven't actually built anything concrete. One way to do it is to buy your own island and declare it a sovereign. Problem is if other nations don't recognize it you are screwed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_micronations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_micronations)

Except you are China.

http://www.newsweek.com/china-south-china-sea-islands-build-military-territory-expand-575161

Thanks a lot mprep for putting this in perspective for a lot of us. Especially the newbies. I was super excited to see a new post by THE THEYMOS himself. All you guys are pretty much part of the folklore at r/bitcoin and r/btc.

Its really easy to get excited about these "Lets make a government-free utopia" ideas and forget about the real world, where real survival problems still exist. Its easy to be disgusted by the mess that Governments make and all that they have failed to accomplish. If you go deeper, it becomes clear that governance is a problem of "keeping everyone together despite their differences". How do you ensure that everyone has equal opportunity and equal chances of survival in a heterogeneous society.

Seems like a homogeneous society made up of the BTC millionaires would be an ideal experiment in seeing if similar thinking people really can  solve the problems of governance. Though you gotta ask that what exactly are they solving when they have no problems??!!

That in turn made me question how bitcoin has come so far from its idea of an equal society to funding charmful ideas as these??

I feel this really doesn't help anybody except satisfying an old fantasy but hey, that's what the rich are supposed to do right?? Entertain their eccentricities and childhood fantasies. Those in turn can either go horribly wrong or inspire people to higher ideals. If its the former then we the commoners can say, told'ya and if its the latter then well, its good for everybody.

This was an exciting discussion. Looking forward to more of it.

AFAIK this would be built on the surface of the ocean and would ideally be located in a safe zone from natural disasters. You are still right about the maintenance except for the depth. It would require constant up keep which I would think 13,000 per person would probably be enough. Especially if you have around the estimated number of people it can home.  

Anything which involves going deeper into the ocean would require more than double the amount being paid.

I want to cry when I remember how someone bought two pizza with 10 000 bitcoin. That pizza could make that dream very possible but past is past, we can't fix it.

Theymos are you going to use forum donations for that? Or maybe those were already spent.....

P.S put link of this thread somewhere in Bold Text to make it easy for everyone to find because here we have really reach people who could think about this project. I would put it under navigation bar.

Wow, this is great idea.
I think this create it is possible.

Why your team choose sea?

Another idea will can make flying like big airship.
If you want I can make easy prototype (scheme only)
I know aerodynamics and aircraft construction.

China is already an established nation. Look at Barcelona ----> that is what will happen to you if you try it in unfriendly territory.

This is a horrible pipe dream. Please, kids. I'm begging you. Just no.

Multi-signature Escrow if in Bitcoin. The ICO that is.

The artwork has a lot of Pentagons in it.

You will still need some form of government, maybe the richest dude is Mayor or something.

Your government will also need it's own security, or military force. I've been waiting for a promotion for awhile, I'd be happy to be the first General / Admiral, LOL. And yes, we'd need a school for that, unless you recruit "foreigners" like the French Foreign Legion.

And then of course, since it would have it's own power, you can set aside a little area, probably underwater and water cooled, to stuff in some ASIC miners, like a few thousand TH/s, all residents get "free" transactions, not like they can't afford it anyway. Yeah, everyone feel free to join the Seastead Mining Pool, No Fees.


But seriously, it's a floating affluent gated community on water.

I think you need to create ICO because most people who want to help good projects from kickstarter or real-life. Ofcourse most people not a millioners but have a strong desire to help anothers.

Seems complicated. Just find some island and develop it into something like this:

Duck Key, FL, population 443 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/24%C2%B046'32.0%22N+80%C2%B054'39.0%22W/@24.7712981,-80.9138738,1928m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d24.775556!4d-80.910833?hl=en)

Theymos, glad you brought this up because this is exactly what is being worked on and has been in the works for the past year.

In January of this year The Seasteading Institute was able to sign a Memorandum of Understanding with the government of French Polynesia to build the world's first seastead in a protected lagoon of the main island of Tahiti granting a Special Economic Zone (SEZ) which would allow for some leeway on most economic laws while still being under the criminal code of French Polynesia. The Seasteading Institute, being a non-profit, split off a for profit company called Blue Frontiers ( http://www.blue-frontiers.com ).

Blue Frontiers has been working on this full speed ahead, I started volunteering with them in June and they have been laying the ground work for an ICO since then ( https://www.blue-frontiers.com/en/token/ ). The plan and what is currently going through the legal process is a Security token which would give each token holder shares of the Blue Frontiers company. We explored every other way of doing an ICO and it appears that following the letter of the law with the SEC is the best approach.

The ICO should go live around the same time the French Polynesia legislation goes through in Q1 2018.

Here is an updated image of the actual pilot seastead that will be produced, we have a firm from the Netherlands that has built floating structures before and a team of over 50 people working on every aspect of the seastead from food systems to energy, Internet, blockchain governance, etc.

 https://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2017_47/2234206/171120-blue-frontiers-overview-ac-1050p_23a6c63d85219c52b40828309417870c.focal-860x430.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/Blue-Frontiers-255004088265639/

Excellent news! I had heard about the French Polynesia thing, but I didn't know that construction was so close. That may be the first ICO I actually buy.

Who is going to manage the whole project? only if you create a special blockchain to track and record every single dollar, what it was used for and

Who used it, who received it etc. maybe if we wait for another month or so, I could be a part of this with my 4.1BTC.

This is certainly a very promising idea, and I am quite sure that you'd be able to negotiate with a number of countries for favorable terms provided you offer them the prospect of stable GDP growth in some way.  Not necessarily taxation, but some economic tie-in to their economy, maybe by using local vendors for supplies or transport.  Countries are eager to do deals and joint ventures, and while this is a pretty extreme example of such an arrangement, I have no doubt you could get countries bidding for your business, similar to how Amazon recently set up a competition between cities to offer them the most favorable terms for their second headquarters.  There are many countries with coastlines around the world and if done properly you could essentially be granted "territory" status of the country, similar to how Guam, American Samoa, and Puerto Rico are for the United States.

As society moves forward, decentralizing everything, starting first with money as Bitcoin has made possible, but all legacy structures of power and control is very viable with technologies such as blockchain distributed ledger.  I'm going to look at the Seasteading Institute website closer and their spin-off Blue Frontiers.  This project in French Polynesia merits further review.

It's a great idea and please do keep posting your progress!

I saw a news article about this just now, here's the link:

Incredible images reveal a futuristic vision inspired by Polynesian traditions for the world's first floating nation planned for the Pacific Ocean by 2020
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5190277/Concept-images-reveal-worlds-floating-nation.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5190277/Concept-images-reveal-worlds-floating-nation.html)

Strictly speaking from a military pov, that's a very close cluster of money-rich targets.  While one assumes there will be some form of military protection, this is too luscious a temptation to ignore for mercenaries and pirates.

Expect pirate attacks, pay through the nose to deter, or pre-empt them. If you expect the established nation-states to help you out with their Navies, shell out some more, lots more moolah.

Even if it proves workable on ALL other fronts, it most certainly fails this military protection test, especially in this post-modern world of drones, unmanned subs, and robot soldiers.

Your only hope then would be for the Bitcoin (and allied crypto) price to crash through the roof; and this seastead to turn too poor to pay ransom or protection money. That won't stop the pirates from trying to abduct seastead 'citizens' for human trafficking purposes. Only solace then would be that they won't be using Bitcoin or Monero, coz they'd have crashed.

Sounds harsh, but it's a necessary reality check.

Interesting take on the conceptual design. Any number of theories could be created for something that does not yet exist. Even pirates  :D

That's why I'm supporting the project that will approach seasteading incrementally instead of starting out in middle of the ocean.

Blue Frontiers currently has a pilot project which will be built in a Special Economic Zone in a protected lagoon close to the coast of a French Polynesian island. This will allow them to work out most of the kinks of seasteading under the full military protection of French Polynesia (a place with no pirates, low crime, no hurricanes and will not likely be going to war any time soon). They will also have the full criminal justice system of French Polynesia so thinks like building prisons or courthouses and worrying about what to do in case of theft or at the worst, murder, has already been figured out by the host nation.

They are currently putting together an ICO that is in pre-sale right now: https://www.varyon.io (https://www.blue-frontiers.com/varyon?r=btcgirl)
The public sale will be in early June.

You can join the discussion here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3708700.msg36961869

Or ask any questions you have here. I've been volunteering for them for a year now so I'm up to speed on most things going on with the project. I even retired and moved to Tahiti to have a front seat at making history with the first seastead.

I'm pretty sure that the minimum security would have to be provided, but let's talk about another aspect first. Every year thousands of people are boarding their yachts to visit some tropical islands like the Seychelles (near a popular somali pirate fishing area ;) ) and live to tell the tale. Nothing happens. And in most cases they have no hired guards or anything like that. Those pirate hits and abductions that you're talking about aren't that common.

That said, there are many ways of making the platforms secure, starting from installing a radar and a sonar to monitor the traffic around the seastead and ending with automated water canons able to sink a boat if needed. Of course, if you're expecting a whole invasion of some third worlders armed with RPGs, not many things are able to stop it, but French Polynesia is inviting tourists every year, and most of them are rich for pirate standards. Are they being abducted or robbed at gunpoint? Not really, if you trust the reports.

I entirely agree with your data. Nevertheless, you must understand that such a seastead/ micro-nation is a new, innovative and disruptive entity on the global horizon. Several minds are going to be perturbed, and a few of them might even drift toward some decisive action.

When I say 'pirates' the image that immediately comes to mind is the impoverished Somali pirates. But, anybody operating outside a national setup is a 'pirate'. Consider the legendary pirates of the sailing ship, colonial era!

In fact, that very same seastead/ micro-nation, on account of its disruption of the world order, would be considered a pirate of sorts. Such an outlook toward the seastead would attract buccaneering mindsets currently serving in various national Navies to plot their own disruptions.

When that occurs, they would be no Somali pirates, but mostly indistinguishable from standard Navymen, as most if not all of them will be erstwhile Naval personnel drawn from various national Navies, now come together for this lucrative mercenary op for what to them seems like some noble action to save the world order against a borderline 'pirate' state.

If you think this is far-fetched, read the rosters of mercenary ops in Africa, where the governments of whole countries have been rudely overthrown, because of the lucrative mineral wealth. The pretext: poor integration with, and attempt to disrupt, the global order, exactly what an upstart seastead would be accused of. The subtext: lucrative riches on offer, whether in Africa, or on a seastead.

These ops would be full-fledged invasions, using the latest naval weaponry 'borrowed' from 'somewhereland'. Does the seastead/ micro-nation have the stomach to even contemplate such an eventuality of overwhelming warfare, let alone plot counter measures?
 

Blue Frontiers actually gets the whole "pirate" question a lot. So much that they added it to the bitcointalk ICO thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3708700.0):

https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FK4HruL2.png&t=588&c=FOW0_5Vt2TiQbg

Fine, I see your point, but there are multiple questions that one might ask, like why would they choose an nation that uses cryptocurrency, which is far harder to steal than fiat money? You actually have to make them give it up, which is doable with enough "persuasion" but takes more time, and has lower chances of success compared to a normal robbery.
Another thing is the lack of acceptance for piracy around the world. Living in a seastead doesn't immediately make you throw away your passport, and you will be having  guests. If EU or US citizens get abducted or killed, even being a collateral damage of a raid on some wealthy bitcoiner, those pirates are going to have a hard time.
Last thing, some resorts don't really have an army, all you get is a police station, but they have a lot of wealthy tourists. And those tourists don't get robbed at gunpoint on a daily basis. It happens from time to time, but the crime rates are much lower compared to the mainland. I know that you'll respond with "it could not be typical pirates but state supporters", but why would they travel to some remote island paradise to show the world that they are against monetary freedom and science projects made by nerds? If they really wanted to manifest something they could have attacked Sealand long ago.

I might also add here to the above discussions (now aware that am on both discussion threads) on piracy that very little is actually known about the motives behind modern piracy, as well as the targetting criteria. What is known is that it isn't actually as random as we'd like to think, nor completely driven by wealth acquisition.

I would suggest though, that integration of foreign communities should be a very high priority. Often, in impoverished countries I've lived in, you get these little expat "enclaves" where the residents play little to no role in the host community. When they did, it was almost lip service, and regarded by host communities as condescending (wealthy white people making small donations to orphanages, for example).

If anything, the increased security and protection afforded to them makes them even more of a target. In my previous community work with non-profits, we had very different ideas of protection... for example, guards, armoured protection, weapons, even bullet proof vests - we didn't use them. If you act like you could be attracting threats, the threats will come.

Every action or inaction has a lot of social and psychological meaning...

Looks like this Seasteading project of Yours is getting fair coverage in the Futures community Press:

https://futurism.com/floating-island-project-high-seas/ (https://futurism.com/floating-island-project-high-seas/)

Futurism's Instagram poll reveals that a full 76 percent of their followers are interested in this idea of living on a floating island.

Congratulations on a good PR, from a fellow hustler; and Best Wishes for Your Seasteading Project!

btw, You can always consult me for the White Hat hacking tests on Your Seasteading project's physical Security.   8)

Also made MSNBC today:


A floating Pacific island is in the works with its own government,... (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/18/floating-island-is-planned-with-government-cryptocurrency-and-houses.html)

The Floating Island Project is a pilot program in partnership with the government of French Polynesia, which will see 300 homes built on an island that runs under its own governance, using a cryptocurrency called Varyon.

How about funding moon,space and mars colony next? BTC O'Neill cylinder one.

If we can't colonize the water, how are we supposed to concur space?

Agreed - it's a thousand times cheaper.

Would it be possible to build these islands from recycled materials?
I know that there have been a few pilot projects testing this out, but I wonder if it's feasible to do on such a grand scale.

This is an article from 2015, but it gives you an idea of what I mean:
https://www.livingcircular.veolia.com/en/recycled-floating-islands

Just for the record, I'm not talking about something amateurish like this:
http://www.earthporm.com/environmentalist-builds-floating-island-100000-plastic-bottles/

I doubt that would survive the constant onslaught of the high seas.

---

Perhaps it might be better to just create a cooperative, instead of an ICO? What's the benefit of one over the other?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative

I have been involved with Blue Frontiers who is building seasteads and they keep talking about recycled materials and environmentally friendly building methods. I'm not involved in that part of things so I don't know the details. My participation is mainly on the blockchain side of things.

The seastead ICO is already underway with the presale going right now at http://www.varyon.io

Interesting, I didn't know that your project was specifically focused on creating these islands in an environmentally friendly way.
The way I see it, a society on these artificial islands should be at least partially self-sufficient in many ways.

It would be an amazing feat if you were able to create new additions without sourcing building materials from the nearest land mass.

It might be possible, but will they be able to neutralize the effect of the waves and wind enough for people to actually live safely on it? Personally I doubt it, especially considering that steel and concrete are normally used in such structures for maximum stability. That being said, recycled materials could certainly be used to build structures on top of the floating island itself. E.g. http://www.criticalcactus.com/beautiful-recycled-homes/

Hopefully these seasteads will have the ability to clean the ocean as they go and burn the waste for fuel

i think in general that project cryptocurrencies are a good idea,

That's why I said next. Ocean(maybe deserts), orbit, moon, deimos, mars.

Last day to get your bonus varyon today at http://www.varyon.io

up to 15% bonus during the pre-sale

https://i.imgur.com/3GShHmN.png

This is a great project, but it's a bit crazy when break into the sea. And it will be difficult without the support of anyone from the government.

Blue Frontiers is cooperating with the French Polynesian government to create a Special Economic Zone in one of their lagoons.

They are also in talks with several other nations.

Good to hear that there's some Government underwriting, or otherwise supporting (through Special Economic Zone setup), this enterprise. But, doesn't that conflict.with the basic libertarian (non-government) ethos?

Right now there are zero seasteads. The goal for libertarians is having seasteads in international waters. If we can take a step in that direction with a cooperative government then that's what needs to be done.

As I have learned with this project, it's not so much a libertarian project as it is a project where we can start a government from a clean slate. Sure, libertarians will be content if the slate stays clean, but it opens up the opportunity to try all sorts of different types of governments that have never been seen before. Maybe a completely blockchain based government. Maybe we try out some old systems that worked until they didn't, but learn from the past. Who knows?

We need to build these things. And that likely means building it on land. All land in the world is controlled by governments.

We'll be doing the same thing in space but nobody is complaining to rocket companies that they are following Earth laws when they build their rockets.

"Do you have Know Your Customer (KYC) and Anti Money Laundering (AML) ?
Yes. "

Is this only for the ICO?
I hope it's not connected with the seasted o.o

I saw this project some time ago, immediately closed it since it was an ICO and I thought they're just going to run away with the money
I am interested right now, will do some research on Varyon

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There was an interesting thread some time ago bryant.coleman ran
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=556831

The KYC/AML for the ICO is due to the fact that the token could potentially be considered a security by the SEC down the road so we're approaching the ICO conservatively following all of the rules we would follow if we were selling securities just in case. But we're trying to create it as a currency that will be used on the seastead.

KYC won't really be a thing on the seastead (depending upon the governance of whichever platform you're on).

It is definitely not set up to run away with the money. The initial raise is relatively small with a large reserve. This allows for getting just enough money to get the ball rolling, then they have to deliver on promises to keep the value of the varyon up in order to be able to utilize the reserves for building future platforms. It is in the company's best interest to deliver what they promise.

The pre-sale ended last week with the raise about 80% of the way to the soft cap. That is a pretty good floor going into the main sale. Especially with a bull market returning.

Sorry for the almost necropost, but just saw this piece of news about Elwar and Summergirl. There's a photo and more reports, but this is probably the first one online: https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30367834

If it's true that Elwar's in hiding, whatever our opinions about seasteading, we've got a Bitcoin early adopter and someone who actually did something about seasteading. Let us hope he's okay, and that this plays out in a just and appropriate way.

Thanks for sharing this article, i'm doing research about seasteading for school. The article though is terrifying, hope that those people won't get hurt fleeing.

Yep, it's all over the P&S as of late and I hope that Elwar and his Thai girlfriend are doing ok. I really don't know what the Thai government suddenly thinks that Elwar is a threat specially his pet project about seasteading. Threat to national security? WTF is that? And this news suddenly flips the whole seasteading thingy around the world.

@buwaytress

Almost can't believe that the Thai government did end up going after them, I can definitely understand them going into hiding, you do not want to end up in a Thai jail.

Jeez (quoted from the article you've shared):


Better check where you build your seastead and avoid countries that still have draconian laws like these.

@eternalgloom yeah it's still a little bit extreme, I'm from SEA and I know our jails are really not where you want to end up at (except Singapore maybe) so he at least is doing the safe thing. I'd thought he'd done all the homework already and if the Navy had an issue, surely it would have happened earlier? Perhaps there's more to the story than we know, but

That said, almost none of the death sentences in my country other than for drug-related offences or murder, have ever been carried out despite being enshrined by constitution, and the same with Thailand and Indonesia. It's only in China where capital punishment for corruption is regularly carried out.

Still, he better get a good lawyer. I'm still wondering why now though. It's really not funny. This wasn't the first seasteading project Bitcoiners have been involved in either.

Since bitcoin's prise is almost 3x higher than it was at the time when theymos created this thread, is this idea still in review?

What do you think theymos? Or are you waiting for another halving(s)?

The fact is that most people see seasteading as this dream world that they will move to and every one of their dreams will come true. It will be free and you will be rich flying your personal flying car from seastead to seastead spending every night watching the sun set with free cocktails and free food. A perpetual vacation where you also have every convenience of home without all of the difficulties.

The reality is that you are trading government control on land for freedoms that you are likely not prepared to handle, all while living on a sea that is not a calm sheet of glass but a powerful force that makes life ten times more difficult than living on land.

I'm not saying it's not possible because I have lived it. But it is certainly not for everyone. If you would have been one of the families crossing the cold tundra of Montana by wagon the first time with savages, wild animals and cold likely killing off half of your family while finding your new freedom then you could handle early seasteading.

I have found that most people would rather dream of seasteading or wait for others to be the pioneers and work out all of the kinks before they're ready to go visit once in a while (only to return to their current lives).

We gave people a glimpse of a future seastead with the cruise ship, Satoshi, with prices starting at $25,000 and the only responses were how it was not this utopia that they had dreamed about with the large 2500 sqft homes they are used to at home but on the sea, with a garden and flying cars. And, oh no, it's not in your back yard...it's far away in a different country.

The idea of the super megastructure seastead is impossible. We bought the cruise ship at less than scrap prices meaning the price of the steel alone was more valuable than the ship. We weren't even trying to make much of a profit allowing us to offer cabins for $25k but this was still too much for people (the cabin is too small! I can't live there!). To actually build a super megastructure seastead would cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Likely with the same sized living spaces costing at least half a million dollars (notice all of seastead designs of all of that open public space for walking around or lounging in the park...not based around high capacity living spaces).

Unfortunately we need to take baby steps to help people understand that living on the ocean is possible (it's already possible...just look at people living in their sailboats). We are building floating homes in a sheltered marina so people can have a "taste" of seasteading without all of those difficult inconveniences like needing to protect your home from pirates or navies or making the day long trip to the grocery store or clinging onto the walls during a bad storm, wondering if you're going to survive the night.

We already have enough orders for about a year of production but if you're interested in checking out what is being created here is what's being built in Panama:
https://oceanbuilders.com

There are some other projects but few are outside of the design stage.

We will be building more advanced homes for the open ocean but they will cost over $1 million for a select few people we would want as neighbours in an undisclosed location.

I've increasingly realized over the years that the limiting factor for any project, and especially for big "dream projects" like this, is time/effort/skill/ambition, not money. I'd be willing to throw money at a realistic project to create a seastead (or a land-based increased-autonomy region), but do I want to spend hundreds of hours working on it? Not really. It's something I'd like to see exist and maybe someday live in, but it's not my passion.

Elwar spent massive amounts of time and money to actually create a seastead, and in the end it was stolen from him and he almost died... I admire the effort he went through the first time, and I admire even more the fact that he's still working on it. But while I wouldn't require nightly cocktails and endless buffets, unlike true pioneers like Elwar, I'd like to at least be pretty confident in the safety and stability of a seastead before I'd consider moving to one. For people like me, I suppose the best thing to do would be to donate to https://www.seasteading.org (accepts BTC!) and wait for the space to mature.

Given the risks and inconveniences involved in trying to live on a sea (especially outside EEZs), wouldn't it be at some point be easier to figure out a way to find a country willing to part with sovereignty over a small piece of land in a non-strategic location? Bir Tawil also looks interesting, but not sure whether it has water without having to drill too deep.

Please find me a country willing to part with a bit of sovereignty.


Apparently a nation sees a threat if even one square inch of their country is no longer under benevolent control of its mighty government. To take that away is to imply that the government is not the best in the world.

It's like saying "can't we just have one guy on <insert your favorite sportsball team> wear a different uniform?". Government is a religion. To ask your religion to allow just a tiny bit of another religion in their realm is blasphemy.

Bir Tawil (aka water well) shouldn't be see as an interesting location cause it is a deserted territory with just sand, mountains and no water that's the reason why it was not claimed by Sudan or Egypt.
I think British Virgin Islands, Zimbabwe and Liberland could be the best place part with sovereignty.

We don't have to drill to build seasteads, the world is almost ocean, a seastead should have its own sovereignty. We can copy how cruise ships work, they are quasi seasteads, you can live there for the rest of your life if you want. The only problem with seasteads is that it will need a lot of resources because it has to function like a country but that isn't enough to outweigh the benefits of seastead, people can choose who will govern them and seasteads will be competing for people to live in them because they have the most basic economy and they need people to make it work or seasteads can be used for economic experiments like UBI(Universal Basic Income), Cryptocurrency Driven Economy, and other Economic theories that we are too afraid to try in countries because the implications are just too big to do it there.

I can't comment on BVI or Zimbabwe, but as far as Liberland is concerned, this should not be considered a serious story because Croatia understood the whole thing as a joke. Namely, they do not consider that part of the territory as "terra nullius" but will decide on it at the international arbitration, it's just a question of when that will happen.

Even if by some chance that territory becomes accessible, would anyone want to find himself between Croatia and Serbia if we take into account what happened in that area only 30 years ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vukovar), and it is only a matter of time before it happens again.

I think we can have autonomous nations within the countries we live as long as we are willing to cooperate with the governments and obey their good Laws.

Earth belongs to all of us.

With blackjack and hookers though? :D

Damn, an unrealistically cool idea ... I just watched the movie "Rose Island (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10287954/)" just recently, (hopefully you won't be building off the coast of Italy, lol). If anyone has read this thread and the OP's post, and at the same time did not watch this movie, then be sure to take a look, (the story is worth learning more about it).

The film is based on real events that took place in the 60s ... "In 1968, the island of Roses was created by an engineer from Bologna, Giorgio Rosa, in the neutral waters of the Adriatic Sea, 11.5 km from the coast of Rimini, and on May 1, 1968, the independent state of the Island of Roses was proclaimed". "The island became incredibly popular with tourists, especially young people, and every morning a boat brought groups of tourists to the island who enjoyed their freedom all day long".

https://i.imgur.com/gzzF5OU.jpg https://i.imgur.com/fXelndJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/cpb9PmM.jpg https://i.imgur.com/DLSGErD.jpg

Has anyone bothered to properly search for water, though?

And there's more to it than that, whichever country would decide to lay claim on Bir Tawil would have to forfeit claim over the more attractive and larger Hala'ib Triangle.


Unfortunately most examples I can think of are from pre-contemporary history, and most are transactions between state actors anyway.

Vaguely related: I stumbled upon "The Market for Sovereign Control" just now, if anyone's interested: https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3880&context=dlj

Just as a matter of interest, how has the funding requirements changed since 2017... because I doubt that those prices would still be applicable after 4 years? (Also with the actual building experience done by Elwar)

Normally the cost estimation is way different from the actual cost, once you start a project like this. (Lots of things pop up, that was never thought of when it was done on paper)  ::)

It is a pity that the Thai government crashed the project, because it would have been a dream come true to see something like that. What about a seastead without the  libertarian independence, but rather a seastead for libertarians to live. (based on a Bitcoin economy where most commerce are done with bitcoins) - People can still offer fiat payment for visitors, but the people living there will mostly use Crypto currencies.  ???

The key is that it's really difficult to estimate the price of one of the super megastructure seasteads. I will give a word of advice if you ever consider investing in a seastead project. Only put money in if it's going directly to pay construction workers building the actual thing. Everything else is just paying a bunch of guys to sit around in meetings, paying for marketing, paying for trips to various sunny locations, etc. I put way too much money into seastead projects where this was all that was done.

At Ocean Builders I keep pushing the founders to not spend money on marketing or people just sitting around theorising (the founders are not paid salaries, we put almost every bit of our investment into the factory, the materials and the workers). Everything we spend money on, I remind them how much that will push the price of the individual home up for the final buyer. And we are trying to make these affordable.

I know of 4 projects right now. One is a super megastructure that has been burning through millions of dollars over the past 5 years coming up with designs, lawyers, negotiations, meetings, etc. They appear to be hoping that someone will be willing to pay over a billion dollars for one of their units. They are not trying to do anything political, just sell luxury homes. I will not endorse this project as it does not seem viable.

Another is focusing on floating wave breakers that create energy from the waves. They're approaching it practically, working with a government under the premise of protecting the shores of that country while creating energy. They are self funded with a couple of guys out on a big research vessel trying out their technology. I hope they do well.

Another is a small scale floating home like Ocean Builders but theirs can take some rough waves, built so waves could go over them and they'd still be ok: https://ventivefloathouse.com/

Ocean Builders https://oceanbuilders.com is focusing right now on manufacturing and sales. We're a bunch of engineers that haven't manufactured anything before so it wouldn't make sense for us to start building and selling seasteads in middle of the ocean. Instead we're taking a phased approach, starting with just what is essentially a "houseboat" that will be like a luxury floating home in a beautiful anchorage in Panama, anchored right next to dozens of other anchored boats near a marina so there's really no legal or new lifestyle we need to create from scratch, there are already people there living in the water. This will allow us to get the process of building floating homes down before expanding into deep water versions. The deep water versions will just put the living portion of the home on a new spar built for different seas. But we're likely a few years from being anywhere other than the small anchorage we're at right now, and most people are not willing to move to Panama just to live in a floating house so we'll be focusing mainly on local investors. We already have plenty of demand, now we need to get production up to meet the demand.

According to what I have read a well was once dug inside the Bir Tawil which I believe the well name was the reason why the place is called Bir Tawil but no one seems to currently know where the well is or what happened to it probably the well was filled by sand through simoom since the area is mostly sand or dry mountains and there's no actual road.

Thank you for your detailed response, but I just have a few more questions.

Would it not be better to buy old oil rigs and then convert that to living spaces? The oil rigs can withstand high seas and they can be moved and no research and development would be necessary... reducing the funds needed for this.  ???

The oil rigs can also be retrofitted to serve as energy generators at the bottom of the pylons? (Hydro electricity) to provide energy for the small households on top?

These platforms can definitely operate in International waters ... but as you have experienced.. that does not matter to authorities. (Also... distance is not practical if you live that far away from civilization)  ::)  (Boats can be lifted out of the water and Helicopters can be used for traveling)

 

One of my favorite concept so far:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQeAHaixFDsEgfYl8nv7yoGHlysizCnIRW4Hw&usqp=CAU

You can watch it here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIRTTWVa_9A&feature=youtu.be

Looks decentralized. Though im not very sure about design and how well it will work on difficult water without too much problems

While you're here if you don't mind ;), is it feasible to live entirely off of fish, crustaceans and maybe algae, without having to leave the sea?


Aren't they pretty expensive to run? And afaik people can only get on them via cranes or helicopters.

They are expensive to maintain. As Elon Musk showed, you can buy one for about $3-4 million which is fairly cheap. Oil companies are fine with using them because they're pulling millions of dollars up from the ground every day so flying a helicopter to the rig or other expensive ways of getting on there and taking care of provisions, etc. are covered. As I learned by owning a cruise ship, you need a lot of income to maintain these huge beasts. The oil industry and cruise industry have a lot of money flowing in to keep these things on the water.

Someone actually bought one and turned it into a hotel. At least they tried to. Turned out to not be very popular and now they're looking for donations and volunteers to keep things going. https://fptower.org/


That's the ideal. Fish farms, etc. We're working on putting hydroponics in our homes, theoretically you can live off of microgreens but it takes a lot of time and they're not that tasty.

There's no need to give up on the international market just because you live a little further from the store than you used to.


Here's our speech at Anarchapulco last year on what we're working on here in Panama.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxrsSI90OBA

I like this concept as well. They get it right with the shape. Anything above water needs more weight at the bottom than the top. When we calculate the width of our platform on top of the spar we have to take into account someone at the highest story walking to the edge, then factor in the tilt factor. For us we consider a dinner party where 4-5 people of average weight goes to one side of the highest point. We figure a tilt of less than 5% is probably reasonable.

If it is shaped like a pyramid or a cone then you can have wider bottom floors. I have proposed a design that looks sort of like a wedding cake which would allow you to go stand on the balcony which is the size of the floor below you.

Wondered if that can run really fast on water without tumbling. I'm more interested on design that allows proper air flow around a streamlined body. Pyramid doesn't look really streamline.
Saw your sea project. I salute your courage!

Yeah, the British Virgin Island would immediately part with soverignity, I wonder what the UK thinks of this, I remember something about Falklands.. ;)
Zimbabwe? The country that turned a blind eye on white farmers getting killed and robbed just because they had more money and they were white? Imagine putting a town full of rich white guys next to this one, what will be the outcome?
Liberland, just lol!


Was that area (Liberland) even cleared of the mines that were laid during the war?
Anyhow, really bad spot, probably only something in Kosovo or Nagorno-Karabakh is worse than this.


What do you think will happen once a poor country which is used to wars (like both Egypt and Sudan are) sees that the territory they've sold has become rich and attractive and is rolling in money? First, there will be harassment, with the borders, with the shipping, with the trade then more and more demands and then what are you going to do if they decide to simply invade peacefully with 1 million civilians?
No, trying to create a nation near or inside an area that was part of a dispute that ended with war is suicide.

I find the idea of creating an independent community feasible and interesting, that of a nation, not so much.
There is no place for utopian dreams of independence in this world, at least not yet.

If it actually grew to be rich and attractive... that's a 'problem' that it would be nice to have. Don't put the cart before the horse. At that stage some sort diplomatic manoeuvring and/or buying protection or starting a professional army would probably become necessary.

Hmm, quite the infidel  ;D How would a crypto nation be anything other than prosperous?


Buying your freedom and not really be free at all does not sound too good from my point of view.
It's like living as an expat in a foreign country, all is nice and well until that nation decides you're not welcomed anymore there since your former country wants you back for god knows what legal matter or cuts your pension. As for a professional army, times have changed, a real army that would have the capabilities of defending against one superior in numbers by factors of 5 or 10 would cost you more than bribing the entire congress.

Plus I don't know why but I can't picture a lot of the guys here would agree with paying taxes for a private army and even a lot less of them actually joining one, I've done my military service, no way in hell I'm going to a battlefield. Having an 417 under the bed in case some somali pirate thinks he's Long John Silver is one thing, open war is different.

A community near a somewhat stable and peaceful country is one thing, building and running a country in a hostile location is something else, but who knows, maybe I'm just growing to old for it.

The UK viewpoint on British Virgin Islands part with sovereignty don't count since they Virgin Island government are perform through representative democracy, parliamentary system and constitutional monarchy.
I'm aware of what you said about Zimbabwe, that's a cruel habit that will affect their future international relations.

Better to invest in non-lethal weapons and a decentralized city that can be easily moved anywhere really fast to avoid destructive/violent war or conflict. Besides, I think such City/Nation will need to guarantee strong transparency in order to be allowed to operate. In my opinion, that should be part of her contract with host/neighboring nations.

Security of the seastead does seem concerning but in the long run, we can make this problem go away by making the seasteads a profitable economic hotspots for many countries and then we can bargain a deal that they will have some degree of privileges if they in turn protect the seastead from the possibility of attacks from pirates or other hostile forces. Small countries, don't need an army to protect itself let alone a seastead.

A defence mechanism based on drones and remotes sounds at theses times as most viable

1 to have swarms of disposable drones controlled remotely or with  preprogrammed friend or foe algorithms
2 command centre secure under ground
?dead man switch deterrent mechanisms

I did not find any information that the area was mined at all, but given that some activities have taken place there in recent years, I would say that there are no mines, or no one has had the misfortune to land on one of them. When you look at what exactly it is about, then the only ones that benefit from that land are actually mosquitoes🦟

https://i.imgur.com/dU4osF5.jpg
Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberland)

Everything in the real world costs money/assets, security included, one way or another.


Gambling ships are a thing, seems like the ideal business for a seastead.

"The bitcoin price is amazingly high"

And so am i...

Seriously though,  you think it's high now wait until December

I looked into what it takes to actually buy a country.

What it basically boils down to is buying up the nation's debt or as much of it as possible, funding certain candidates and then leveraging that debt to get what you want from the politicians in charge. A big part of it being the relief of some debt in exchange for some policy changes you may want.

So some small country like Nicaragua could be bought, then you have them pass pro-liberty policies in exchange for restructuring their debt. Pass enough pro-liberty policies and the whole system goes toward freedom and they have no way of stopping it.

Similar to how China is making countries become communist through similar means.