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Official documents of the german prosecutor will be released here soon.

Be patient.

What you mean ? We can take back our money from bfl

How? As far as I know they dont refund anymore nor do they deliver

like that :)

LOL perhaps one of the units reportedly seized by German customs was for one of those customers?

You know you have to wait till your place in line comes up, no? And that you agreed to that, and at the pop-up which you had to click to maintain or cancel your order because changed power usage you chose "agree", like you agreed to the "no more refunds once we start delivering?" ;D

Something something you can't forbid refunds on pre-sale items something something law

I hate BFL, but I think this is funny.  I have visions of a german guy in an interpol uniform with a little blue light on his car roof knocking on BFL's doors and just being waved away like a mosquito.  It's a US corporation.  Pound sand, Germany.

If this is actually happening, it should be trivial for the German judiciary to write a polite note to the US FTC and ask them to take some action on BFL. Since BFL violates FTC rules, there won't be issues about enforcement.

Thats typically for the germans.. They always think their the greatest, the best and they got the law on their side.

If BFL was a german company, the boss would already be in jail and the buyers would lawsuit the shit out of him .. it then does not matter if they get the money or the product, all they want is to be right..

LMAO

Its not that funny.. A german court can confiscate every product that BFL ships into the EU.

That people will risk the purchases from everyone who lives in Europe..

You made some mistakes.

So that would be the Germans screwing other Germans.  Not prosecuting BFL.  How does that nip the problem in the bud, exactly?

I really hope they cancel all the orders going to germany that way many people will move up in the queue who don't mind waiting just a bit longer........

I really really hope BFL tries to use this defense, because it will make it that much easier LOL.

Another FUD thread, with things that will NEVER happen.
LMFAO

Lol, this should be good.  Let us know how that turns out for ya.  ;)

LOL... good luck with that. 

I really think threads like this do a disservice to their cause.  Yes, we all hate BFL.  Yes, they are a scummy operation.  But false threats like this just make YOU look bad when they never materialize.  Look at Xian's threats which never materialized.  You can't just threaten to sue people or have them arrested in order to effect change.  It has to actually happen.  So again, good luck with that.   ::)

Lol the best Germany could do would be ban import, they have no other jurisdiction, BFL are not in the EU. How would that help the customers? It would certainly help other BFL customers around the world as they would move up in the queue.  ;)

I smell another smear thread.

I'm not German and yet I like that attitude. Courts do their job over there. Electors also are less stupid and politicians are held accountable for their actions.

Oh sorry.. I forgot that most are from the us....  There are germans in europe.. but not everyone in europe is german.. like there are dogs in the US but not everyone in the US is a dog....

Absolutely not.. They screw their neighbours all over the place. They call the police when you parked your car a bit over the white borderline, they call the cops when you having a birthday party and are partying until 10.01 pm (its only allowed "loud" until 10.00 pm), they stick a knife in your back when you turn around ...

bitchin' all over the place.. They WOULD be so stupid to really do the lawsuit which is the reason for this thread, and the asshole who had the idea for this lawsuit would also be happy if he got ANY progress against BFL, even if that means every german customer would NOT get his ASIC..

The only good thing in germany is for the poltics.. they work their asses off and pay taxes like hell.. but they do it with attitude and no one moans... ;-)

LOL, Stockholm Syndrome (which is a form of denial) + greed

Human race is amazing :D

BFL's CEO Nasser Ghoseiri lives in France.

That probably doesn't count for much though.  Germany != EU != France.

He is not their CEO.

 Welcome to doing business on the global stage. Where telling Germany (or any country for that matter) to "pound sand" will result in you not having the ability of ever doing business in their country again.

 This is not in any profitable business' best interests.

 In the larger context, however, one could argue that America's favorite Bitcoin ASIC company has bigger problems than having EU zones rejecting their products.

It amazes me the number of gullible people that even think that a commercial consumer complaint falls under criminal law, instead of the relevant consumer legislation.

 I believe starting with consumer complaints is a valid first step in establishing a criminal case, if we're arguing semantics and realities.

 You would be surprised at how effective filing consumer complaints can be. Especially when done en-masse so much so that authorities start seeing a pattern of complaints developing.

If not him, then who?  ;)

Germany custom corruption, they are mining bitcoins like crazy ;)

@OP LOL you arn't even an official account your name has fuckin 3 repeating digits in it.. Why in the fuck would you think anything you say is credible here?...

You forgot to mention ASICminer fan too!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.msg2699857#msg2699857

Lulz thanks for the link erk this person is definately a troll XD

I don't know much about the German legal system, but the words"criminal" "lawsuit" and "prosecutor" are not usually used in the same sentence. Also, lawyers are generally calculating and only do things when there is something to gain. Why tip your hand on some internet forum, and why do it anonymously when you could get more clients by advertising?

This is an old thread:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/528396.html

but it looks like the combined cost of the trial AND of collecting against a foreign corporation from Germany will probably exceed whatever damages that will be awarded against BFL for non-delivery. So, the only one that wins here is the lawyer...

Something doesn't make sense. I vote troll. But if it is real, I applaud the lawyer for finding 30+ paying saps! Now they're out BFL money and lawyer money.

I'm with you at this point, but not for the reasons most have posted in this thread.

It's completely plausible that authorities might bring criminal charges against BFL in Germany, and there is almost certainly the necessary treaties and law to permit the prosecution.  This is particularly so if the authorities were presented with multiple citizens with the same prima facia complaint of violation.

BUT... It is not at all typical, nor credible, that an attorney, or agent, of those parties would announce a criminal investigation (not the OP says in effect "not yet" to existence of charges) that is on going.

I'm skeptical.  But wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it all out of hand.

Is the OP's name Carol Johnson?

Why is Carol listed as Male in their profile?

I read somewhere, that OP's acc has been sold...

OP's name was registered a myriad of times on various site, mostly all around the same time frame.

I was thinking that one of those sites got hacked and gleaned the password of which may have been used across the board.

For the life of me I can't believe that the selling of users accounts on this forum isn't condoned. I can't think of one good reason it should have been in allowed in the first place. Actually, I can think of a nefarious reason, but I rather not go there.

It's absolutely impossible to prevent. By condoning it, no one is in denial that it happens and can be more on the alert for it. It's also quite analogous— or at least carries similar harms— to plain sockpuppeting, which is also generally impossible to prevent.

One way that we can address misconduct created through socks and stolen accounts is to hold our community to higher levels of evidence.  There is a lawsuit? Oh really?  Post some [potentially redacted] docs "or GTFO".

I like how OP has been collecting names and adresses of these 34 "victims". No doubt to threaten, provoke and aggro with the mighty sword "Blade of ClassAction +2".


Reminder that class action does not exist in Germany.

SHUT Up nobody give you anything fucking TROLL !!!!  attention !!! probably identie Thief  

Aw I hurt your feelings.   I'm sorry.  There, now let's move on and I'll rephrase so you can (hopefully) understand.

"That would be the Germans screwing everyone in the EU, not BFL.  How exactly does that nip the problem in the bud?"

The idea is to screw BFL for further business in Europe. It takes way too long though.

Apart from that, if someone launched a fraud investigation and someone was actually sentenced while in absence (Which can happen) then a European arrest warrant would ensure that he gets nowhere near anywhere in the EU anymore and will be arrest in any country that has extradition treaties with the European Union countries.

To be honest, the EU warrant is the most insane tool I know of. Look at Julian Assange. I have seen German people dragged from the UK to Spain because of their name, since there was an EU arrest warrant in Spain. :D

Of course, it all cleared up. In Sevilla.


Another variation is that you might create a small whirlwind that is... well coming over to the US. BFL's ideas about contract laws are already iffy and completely wrong, from what I have learnt about them. So probably, they might get into trouble at some time. Justicia is moving slowly, but she rarely stops moving once set in motion...

Indeed, it will make it just easier for BFL in the EU. He might think he has a chance in a criminal court but (if it gets there which I doubt) as these cases are filed as a private matter since there is no criminal intent he has proof of, and the buyer on more than one occasion agreed to the terms, the best he can get is his money back through a private law court case, which he already could have had, if he had paid attention the last months and had clicked "cancel".

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/daargaje/14_zps6d257f68.png (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/daargaje/media/14_zps6d257f68.png.html)

BFL has more holes then swiss cheese, for what it takes these people to make package and ship their product they could be in
china and we would not know.. for all you germans out there, the people bashing you are either in on it, work for bfl, or just
someone with no idea how business works so don't get offended; BFL's is the biggest joke of a company ever made.

Nah, some of us are calling out the fact the account that posted originally looks rather dicey on its own.

I wonder why none of the American customers hasn't sued them yet. Especially the guys who ordered Minirigs. That's some serious money.

Agreeing to terms that have been deemed unlawful does not have any consequence for the customer, if we are talking B2C business. As far as I know, this also works this way in the US.

So, you can also agree to someone getting 40% on a loan, it will still be thrown out by a court. That is what customer protection laws are there for.

Even if they are violating german laws, what's a german court going to do about it?  Seize all of their assets in german banks?  All of a grand total of 0 euros???

You might have a lawsuit, but you'd have to file in the US!!!  It's like me taking you to trial in an American Court?  What's the judge here going to do for me when you're over there???

You think British Petroleum cared much about the civil claims and criminal fines from the USA Gulf oil spill?  Relative to their cash flow, little more than an irritation.  Sure, they paid, them, but what corporations worry about in trials is:

-> Bad publicity.  A verdict against BFL would be splashed all over on these forums and by BFL's competitors.  That's a real cost;

-> Follow up (copy-cat) actions in other jurisdictions.

When a company is selling 90% sizzle and 10% steak, they really can't afford anything that turns the heat down.

Probably because the miners still make their value back in less than 30 days.  If anyone successfully sued Butterfly Labs, what would they get?  A full refund, at best?  A partial refund at worst?  So would you rather have $2,500, or a miner than can make $2,500 in 25 days, and then continue making money afterward?

Have you heard of punitive damages?

Sure.  I very seriously doubt any punitive damages would be awarded in this case.  It wouldn't make sense if every investment gone awry would be awarded punitive damages.

Most of this thread is FUD to try and gain a competitive advantage for other ASIC miners.

Realistically, the only laws I have seen BFL possibly break so far, that they could actually get in trouble for, is the refusal to refund, as Kansas, where BFL are located, has some reasonably strict consumer laws about that kind of thing. But you would have to file a complaint in Kansas, not Germany!

BFL probably lost all the order/shipping data for their german customers, and are trying to restore it through getting input here.
So if you have not ordered anything from BFL and live in germany, I would advise to send your shipping address and a fake order screenshot to carol.

 ;D

Strange that the original poster has perfect English, then perfect German.  Later posts are typed in broken English.
Sold/hacked account for FUD?

Looks like Carol had a sex change. She changed her profile from male to female.

Also, Carol seemed to registered on a lot of sites on Nov. 4, 2010, as I've already shown.

http://stagesupport.infobright.com/forums/member.php?15062-carolstreet444




And, all I've found to date have zero activity. If this account was sold, how did Carol go about doing it if she/he was active on this forum until recently? Did Carol just wake up one day and say to herself(?) that I'm going to sell my Bitcoin account today?

I don't know if sales of accounts were available back in November 2010, now do I know if there's a practice of people purposely registering on sites across the board with the hope of selling age accounts in the future.

I do know that Carol was the 2113th person to sign up to BT, opting to not participate on here until a few short weeks ago.

Something is not adding up, but I can't put my finger on it.

I can surmise this: If I didn't want heat on an entity of which I control, I would claim via a sockpuppet that a lawsuit is in the works directly at my company, therefore nobody else should bother suing them stemming from the same arena. Case in this point, Germany.

The closest I've seen this happen before was when Josh was investigating BF Labs, and as people expressed that they're thinking about coming to KC to check the place out, Josh put a halt to it stating in no uncertain terms there was no need, for he was just across the street and will (and did) investigate with camera in hand. Sure enough, there was nothing to see there, just a now closed restaurant and Section 8 housing.

To this day, that address was never explained, and still is used on BitPay's site as BFL's main address.

If you can't release any details why did you start this topic now? Why not when you can and have thongs to show?
I for one am glad to see this happening though! Hope this ain't just hot air!

She is not the only one who prepares a lawsuit against bfl.

Who is the second loser? uhhh loser of the (future, but I highly doubt it will ever come that far) Lawsuit.

I got my BFL 60ghs miner today

I think it is about time that someone takes up on this...

i am getting sick on these pre-orders...

if u have stuff stocked... sell it... if not.. don't sell it...

If you don't like pre-orders, don't buy them.  Some people like/want pre-orders though.

Likewise, I received my two a couple days ago.  They do deliver.

seriously?

I was a customer of bfl as well... I have 6 fpga... so my conscience of bashing them is clean...

I did not do "2012" pre-order any asics for some trust reason... but these pre-orders really need to stop...

They are trying to manipulate here... it is very obvious that they are the ones getting rich here...

they get to do whatever they wants...

1) GET MONEY from preorders...

2) build miners...

3) Mine with them first until people gets mad and really want their orders...

4 ) deliver a few orders (so consumers gets some hype and buys MORE PRE-ORDERS)

5 ) Repeat step 1-4



I mean avalon did the right thing in their "FIRST BATCH"... now they're trying to do the same as what is BFL is doing...

One thing i really want to happen is.. have at least 5 companies manufacturing miners...

that way they'll have to compete to get the consumers business.... and not abuse their capability to build these miners...

What has this got to do with the OP?

You realize it's a myth that you can make more money per hour mining with an ASIC than you can selling it?

If BFL ship 100 Jalapenos a day, that's around 300BTC worth, try mining 300BTC with 100 Jalapenos, it will take weeks, it's much more profitable to keep selling the units.

I still don't quite understand what your complaint is.

If you don't like BFL, don't order from them.  If you don't like Avalon, don't order from them.  If you don't like pre-orders, don't pre-order anything.

Your steps 1-4 are not at all obvious, and simply conjecture based upon the little evidence you can see from looking at the company as an outsider.  There is no proof of your accusations.

Yeah, it seems that some people here either need a basic geography or basic law lesson.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if this never gets past the filing stage because the German courts rule that they don't have jurisdiction.  In order for any entity to be charged criminally, it has to be subject to the criminal statutes of the jurisdiction the court presides over.  Filing criminal charges in Germany for something that happened in the US would get thrown out very quickly.

OP, think of it this way.  You are in Germany, and decide to steal a car.  Here in the US, the DA of NY decides to file Grand Theft Auto charges against you in the NY District Court.  Does this make any sense to you?

Pre orders are not the problem.  I do a pre order every day at the deli counter for my sandwich.  I pay the cashier and about 5-15 minutes later, I get my sandwich.  Anytime you order a Pizza online and pay for it before you go pick it up or it gets delivered is a pre-order.  I have a pre-order out at gamestop for GTA V.  Many of my friends have Preorders for the PS4 (was going to say xbox one but then I realized no one preordered the xbox one... :p )

The problem is a pre-order that fails to meet the date of delivery by more than a small margin of error.  If my sandwich take an extra 5 minutes, I might be grumpy, but I'm not mad.  But with the ASIC pre orders, the problem is both not being able to meet their own timelines and poor customer service.  Back to the sandwich analogy, we're at the equivalent of me waiting about 3 hours for my sandwich that was promised in 15 minutes now.  But even that's not the problem.  If the cashier is honest with me and says, "hey, our oven broke and we're not going to get your order out for an hour, would you like a refund?" I would either decide that the sandwich was worth waiting for, or take my money and go elsewhere.

The problem is no pre-orders, it's the fact that you have a bunch of people with no business or interpersonal skills trying to sell a product that has had some glitches, and no one has enough PR savvy to diffuse the situation.

at first I would have agreed on your point... however.. I remember those thread here about them "MINING" with customers miners...
(yep... there were proof/images/screenshots that both BFL/AVALON DID MINE using customers miners)

and "THEM"... telling something else... like they have some problem in this area, in that area, and etc... while still mining and delaying the delivery...

now that changes the whole "pre-order is not the problem"....

in short...

they took the customers money... build a product... and "burn test" that product and somewhere in the road that burntest  btc goes into their wallet... so nope... that's no longer a pre-order scheme...

if you pre-order a pizza:
company takes your money via phone or internet...
they make a pizza... (both parties wait for it to be done)
deliver the pizza... (both parties wait for it to be done)
end of transaction...

Question: Should the company that makes the pizza takes/eats a slice of a pizza before they deliver it?
Answer: "NO! at the time the product was done... it should already be considered CUSTOMERS PROPERTY! SO DON'T TOUCH!"

Care to share said proof?  I remember seeing rather blatant proof of Avalon doing it (dusty fans, etc), but not BFL, at least beyond testing prototypes and doing the 24 hr burn-in.

there were a few threads...

I do not have them bookmarked... so yeah I cannot just give the link...

but from inside my mind...

here it goes..
========================================================
BFL
========================================================
there was a thread talking about BFL mining with customers miner...

showing a heat map around the globe - texas... showing it was the most/heavily (dnt really remember the exact words).. but showing that in BFL's office/hq has the highest ghz/TH in terms of mining...

disclaimer:
sorry if that is very confusing... lol... I am just trying to put up whats inside my head... but I can assure you.. there was a few threads about that... I just don't have the time to search for it... but i know "I READ IT"... and from what i understood they mined with customers miners...


========================================================
AVALON
========================================================
there was a thread in one of avalon's customer...

the person got his miner.. and there was a setting in the miner... it mined a "FEW HUNDRED" bitcoins... and that wallet address was tracked and found to have a few more...

if you burn test a miner it should only generate few bitcoins... like 1 or 10 or atleast less than 20 bitcoins? NOT 100+ bitcoins...

disclaimer:
sorry if that is very confusing... lol... I am just trying to put up whats inside my head... but I can assure you.. there was a few threads about that... I just don't have the time to search for it... but i know "I READ IT"... and from what i understood they mined with customers miners...

i never thought i would defend bfl, but i think you got confused there.

wasn't that big node on this network globe only showing the pool(eligius?) operated in that area?

still doesn't rule out the possibility of costumer asics running there too, but it is no real proof.

Did you know that Josh hosts customer rigs, and had a pool hosted as well (eligus)?  It's not BFL mining on customer rigs - it's customer rigs being hosted at a given pool.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:MiniRig+SC+and+Single+SC+Hosting

my single was not even tested, I know very well how new electronics smells when fired first time. That was just new.
Some people searching for shit everywhere, if they not able to find any they will produce some. Culture of BS.

I agree they they shouldn't eat your pizza or any slice of it first, and this is where the analogy does not match 100%.  By eating the pizza, they have altered your pizza.  By mining with your machine, they really haven't altered it that much.  Yeah, yeah, they put a little bit of wear and tear on it, but in the long run, not really that much.  I sell some little asic usb erupters on the side, and I test every single one of them for 24 hours before sending b/c I don't wanna deal with sending bad ones out and having returns.  Does this mean I'm eating some of my customer's pizza?  It's a fine line for sure, but I personally don't think I'm doing anything wrong.

I have altered your pizza. Pray I do not alter it further.

Still post stalking me I see! ;)

I promised to keep my hands off of you!  You should keep your hands off my pizza! :p

This pizza has been adultery!

A large manufacturer mining / "burn testing" for 2 weeks does drive up the difficulty, which makes the unit less profitable. There won't be much problems if you did "burn testing" on testnet but of course nobody will do burn testing if it's on testnet.

The picture of their burn testing rack looks like it might handle a hundreds Jalapenos or a couple of dozen Singles. I don't think that's going to change the world.

Not to mention they're just doing burn-ins for 24 hours on each unit anyway.

Let me get this straight! Are you telling me that once those 300 units are made during the day, they're put on racks to be burned in for 24 hours prior to being boxed up, then shipped out?

What the fuck am I missing here?

I can't image the space this would take up that BFL doesn't have, let alone the amount of energy it'll take to simply fire up them miners. BTW, how many can be attached to a single computer at one time? Surely, we're not talkin' 'bout 300 PCs are we?

that 24hours must be equivalent to 12months or 1year...