Bitcoin Forum

Out of necessity a new thread for a new product:
I want to test the waters if you would be interested in such a board

The Bitfury design i am working on is a 16 Chip board with the same form factor as the BitBurner.
I think it makes sense that i will sell boards including the chips now - no more group buys.

Best demonstrated performance per chip is currently 2.7Ghash resulting in 42ghash/s per board.
I am aiming for 5 Ghash per chip, i will be doing things differently then the competition which will hopefully
allow us to squeeze more performance out of this silicon.
Host interface and Controller / stacking will stay the same.

Price: ~470eur+vat (Complete module including chips)
Delivery: early October if Punin delivers on time.

Most definitely interested.

Do you transfer 70% of Avalon board price to these?

Depends on how we can use the paid orders from avalon chips.

To answer the question:  Yes, I would buy one to a couple if the price was right.

I think you do great work.

Would they be compatible with the M-boards?
Would you be making cheap M-boards ?  8)

If you can get close to 4GHs from each chip then I would buy. Less than say 3.5 & with any delay on chip delivery & I would again face high risk of negative ROI as I face with my Bitburners.

I don't mean it as an insult in any way on people who asked for refund on bitburners, but would you consider a small loyalty discount for people who stick with bitburner orders? That would definitely influence my decision on Bitfury. (Furious Burners? lol)

Interested..

Seems nice! 1 plz

Go to a bank, get a 2 month loan, buy and build 1000 chips/boards and the community will support you with 10% deposit orders. This is how business needs to be done, like a business.

So, we're talking like 7 Eur/GH in October assuming you can get chips to 5GH/s? Sounds awesome :D Any guesses about power consumption considering the chips would be at 5GHz? :)

As you can do early October, I would like to shift my bitburner order over to bitfury chips (based on estimated 70% carry-over of value); it's a close call though; if it had been late October, I'd probably have taken the partial refund

Interested.

Yeah and hopefully a proper designed use of the chip :)

The USB interface crap (and lack of anything marginally representing a protocol) coming from some others, with the ButFury chips, is horrendous :P

... looking forward to it!

Can you get more than 2.5Gh/s per chip from USB interface?
just curious.

cheers,
kev

Will the bitfury chip be 'enough' given the other chips coming out?
What are the numbers and when does the Bitfury become the next Avalon chip?

Be nice to know the rough timeframe on that to consider whether a Bitfury project is viable.

I am watching and definitely be interesting. Could we get you the chips and you do the assembly and parts onto the pcb? please let me know. PM me.

Check the power efficiency here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281279.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281279.0).  The BitFury chip is well within the ballpark of the expected efficiency of future chips.  As for cost competitiveness ... who knows.  As far as I'm concerned, if a Bitfury based design will achieve a healthy positive ROI within a few months, there isn't much to worry about.

Interested, and would not mind helping distribute to the US

I would be interested, I'm a big fan of the hobby-style boards. Hopefully it will be free of the usual pre-order madness! I like the design of your avalon boards, bitfury is a great next step.

EDIT: I would be interested in 2-4 of your boards. Thanks again for the great designs!

Interested in same size order as Bitburner XX boards. (I was in Zefir B1 and I have received the Bitburner XX's)
I also like the DIY approach, build a tower of 8 boards, hook it up, fiddle with the software.
It's fun!
And the disco show of the Bitburners boards, I want that back on the Furyburner boards!

Even 50Ghash/board would be amazing with an early October shipping date.
I hope there's going to be enough interest :)

I'm not sure what you mean :P
There's no USB limitation like that ...

Do you mean the BitFury chip itself?
Yeah the GPIO joy of the designs so far are really bad, a clean MCU USB interface would have no trouble.

As for talking to a single chip over USB ... well the BFLSC chips are 4GH/s+ ... so no issue there either ... even with 256 or more of them on a single computer on USB ...

I would probably buy one or two. I'd also be willing to be a US distributor/reseller if you need one.

+1, love you burnin

If the 70% discount applies, I would be interested in two units.
There should be no VAT as I live in US.

There is no 70% discount.
There is 70% money back.
Meaning that if you paid for 2 bit burners and you choose to get a refund you get 2*105*0.7 = 147eur discount on your "furyburner" order.
Not 2*470*0.7=658 eur discount.

boards run separately or is there a master board for them? compatibility with the official m-board?

interested.

 :D  I misread & thought......what the hell is a "furryburner"  ??? :D

Hi Burnin, we're definitely interested, thanks for working on this ;D. We've already got a relatively early chip order in with bitfurystrikesback (not huge numbers, but enough for us), would you consider assembling boards with our chips or are you definitely only selling complete board + chips packages this time?

A quick technical question, why did you decide to go for a 16-chip design for this board rather than the 20-chip design of your bitburner? I'd have thought that the extra density would be an advantage if it's possible to host that many chips on a board.

This is not how business needs to be done, unless it is a bitcoin bank and bitcoin-nominated loan.

Not every business needs to be done like that surely?

I´m interested in BitFury boards and I have BitBurners on order.

The order of manufacturing with the Bitburners was:
1) batch number
2) order number (to determine the order within a batch)

@burnin:
There won´t be any batches with the BitFury boards. How do you determine the order?

I´d suggest that those who´ve already paid for Bitburners and switch over to BitFury boards keep their order numbers.

Interested! Always with you burnin! Until the end!!

I'm most definitely interested in Furyburner XVI board  ;)

I think if you convert an existing order to a bitfury-order, it seems fair to keep the order number. However, the group buy or batch number of the avalon chips should not play a role since the avalon chips are never going to be used. So - I'm not sure if this is what you meant - I'd suggest to keep the order number only.

Yes, that´s exactly what I meant.

~470 eur+ vat or equivalent in BTC? just trying to work out how many unit I can get with the BTC refund from Yifu... Tnx burnin.

He just likes the name I gave the coming boards ;)

How long do we have to decide to "convert" our Bitburner orders to Bitfurys/Furyburners?

I am interested.

questions for burnin:

1. will we keep our order numbers if we decide to upgrade our avalon boards?
2. what will happen if bitfury is late?

Very exciting! Definitely in.

Put me down for at least 2.

yes, looking forward.

So 470 eur + VAT for a complete board? Chips included?
Sorry to ask but it's kind of too good.
What's the downside?

The downside is nobody can be 100% sure about chip delivery date.

I am extremely impressed with the 2 bitburners I have up and running at 450mhz and the transaction was extremely smooth so would definitely be interested.

Yup. Which is why I asked about timing. Can I let my useless bitburner order hold a spot for me should Bitfury deliver on time?

Reserve me 2

If you get a refund from yifu, plus 75% refund from burnin, and you exchange btc at the current rate, you would get 1 new device for every 2 1/2 bitburner XX you once ordered, but with delivery in october. So the question is: is it worth it?

What are you guys thinking? this would get me (say 3gh/chip with 4 devices) would get me 192gh, at 5gh it gets me 320gh. my 10 orders make up to 90gh (200 chips at 0,45gh each). It could take two weeks ^tm or two months. You think bitfury is more likely to deliver at the end of october than avalon shipping in two weeks?

Can Yifu elaborate ETA? This would help a lot - though I don't know if any credits can be given to this man anymore (I think not).

please, keep this thread yifu/avalon free.

How is that possible?

Burnin/bitfury is the only damage control option for the 8,000,000$ in avalon chip orders

I agree with ecliptic here - avalon returns discussion (as opposed to complaining) is quite relevant to this poll

Will the BitFury device use Avalon emulation?

I'd probably buy 3-5, depending on ACTUAL delivery time, ACTUAL hash rate, and cost with shipping to U.S. Pre-orders, not so much...

I have Bitburners on order and would switch over to 2-5 BitFurys for sure.

Will you make the switching possible on your ordering website burnin or how are you planning to process these switching requests?

Same here.

Yes, would be up for 2 BitFury boards.  Will probably keep my Bitburner XX order open too, rather than transferring to the new product.

ETA: and would be happy to pre-order

roy

Same here

Since I my chips didn't make it ... I'd be interested in converting to the bitfury and thus dropping the bitburners since they got a low chance to break even.
Keep em coming mate !

:)

I think it has something to do with overclocking. Looks like the amplifier was limiting the 20 Chips board to their 450 mhz frequency.

Definitely interested in transforming my Avalon order to a Bitfury order, especially if you'll sell them with the chips included. Looking forward to the next update!

Im Interested , where can I "buy" my preorder?

Yeah.
I'm definitely interested.  :D

*** !-!-!--B-U-R-N-I-N---F-O-R-E-V-E-R--!-!-! ***

Seriously interested here!!!   8)

 I would like to reserve/pre-order 2 boards ((atm!))  ;D


Big kudos @Burnin, I will look forward for further infos..
cheers! :)

-anykeywhy-

*** !-!-!--B-U-R-N-I-N---F-O-R-E-V-E-R--!-!-! ***

Of course i am interested too. I was waiting for this for over 2 months! :D

Put me in also !

You are correct, discount was the wrong term.  I am part of a groupbuy and we paid for 20 units,
5 of them were mine. 

So to use your math, 5*105*0.7=367 Euro - almost pays for one unit. Have watched his development
for the Bitfury chips for some time in the Bitfury DIY threat and would definitely be interested in 2 or 3
units.

By now I think I would skip my avalon assembly and preorder and jump over to the bitfury miner.  :)

Just imagine if the Bitfury was the original chip?

Everyone might be hashing right now.

I asked for that in time...  :'(

Definetly interested  :o

interested, yes

burnin when do you plan on taking orders.??

See this post for lastest information: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179769.msg3060806#msg3060806

I will need about one week of development time to verify my design.

mark!

Do you have Bitfury chips on hand for prototyping and do you have any results with actual bitfury chips?
As far as I know Bitfury himself says its impossible to go slightly over 3Gh/s.

Just got my refund from Sebastian, and therefore have a "chipless" order with you so I'm interested!

I'm interested, too.

Würde gerne meine Bitburner in eine Bitfury Bestellung umwandeln

+1

Hey burnin,

any news about the upcoming BitFury miner?
It seems like BitFury is delivering their Starter Kits etc. in time, which is great.
But they have some serious soldering issues which causes chips not working sometimes.. :/

Do you already have a reseller / shop at hand who will sell your future products?

Let's do this...

I am watching this thread but still don't know what is the base for burnin to produce bitfury boards.
Right now he is in deep financial problem trying to refund people as much as he can, and even more than he is obligated to refund.

On other hand I have many unanswered questions:
How many votes is needed to start making prototype board?
Is there some deadline to produce boards? Does he need help to produce them having in mind this refund situation?
Where to order?
......

I am interested in buying 3 or 4 2 boards.

I think he gonna use the component that already bought for bitburner and use it to build bitfury boards. That way he can give more % refund for the bitburner customers.

FYI
BitFury is going to update their chip pricing by this weekend.

Ahh sorry, lost this thread for a while...
Yes I was referring to the USB Interface with the BF chip specifically. most I have seen in testing so far is 2.7 Gh/s.
I realise the GPIO is not efficient and the chip can be a little unpredictable.

I am intrerestred specifically in single and dual chip applications where powere is drawn through the USB as well as the data flow.
I am interested in any improvements.

cheers,

I am interested in this also.
Will you ship to Australia?
Thanks

Watching.

I am interested.

Interested but as more time elapses, price becomes an issue.

I'd pay your price if you could deliver today

Would be interested by 2~4 boards, got 4 avalon bitburners orders for now, pending refund.

I would have thought Burnin would not do another project given that people as soon as problems develop want refunds and jump ship.

Is this thread dead or we have some definite information about burnin's bitfury miners?

See post #77

Or here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179769.msg3060806#msg3060806

Thanks for reply but that is not definite information.
It said he will develop products further but no info about product, who are third parties and when the product will be available.
Another thing is this pool, as there is no way of us telling was it successful one or not.
Personally I want to buy good product and think burnin's expertise is what can provide it.
I am looking forward to these boards, but if they turn fiasco like Avalon chips did, I will have no other choice but to walk away.

Big issue in here is also those refunds, and which are in fact no fault of burnin, and there is no warranty it won't happen again.
He wanted to be precise and on time and used money to be prepared for incoming Avalon chips, and now people who paid in advance (without reason at all, chips was not on stock yet) want refund, and some want it in full amount and don't want to realize time line of events happened. In my opinion those who want to say thanks to burnin, support and appreciate his work, should donate for the cause.

This is all there is right now. We are all waiting on news.

Yes everyone is waiting for burnin to make his decission regarding paid orders.

Just want to add my +1 here... i'd love to transfer however much is possible of the price i paid for avalon miners to this bitfury version.

Latest from burnin

Would you look at that, a Belgian company! :)

It's starting to actually be more interesting to drive over to collect it than to have it shipped

And it's run by 35-36 year guys, so it's not some kid ;)

wrong thread?

Not really, I replied to the last message, about CryptX becoming his future distributor, which will also be selling the Furyburners

News from punin:


So it's 67,500 EUR per 3000 chips = 22.5 EUR per single chip (October delivery).

Any more information on the pricing now that Bitfury have the 3000 pieces reel price on their store?

http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/bitfury-reel-fifo/ ?

I am interested go for it

I wonder if this price drop will affect the price of Burnin's boards, or if he had worked out a similar price with Punin already?

Also it would be nice to get an update on the progress of these boards as chips are now avail again & there are also other options like Drillbit. Personally, I would prefer to buy from Burnin, but with no info on development it's hard to make a decision.

I would be interested in 2

I bet that they discussed a private price since burnin will sell lots of boards.

22.5 eur per single chip is for september delivery!

new bitburner board needs 16 chips. so, 16 x 22.5 = 360 eur for chips only.

add 100 eur for board, and you get 470 eur + VAT.

Any time frame on testing, burnin? If you can perform your magic like you did with Avalon chips and get the Bitfurys hashing higher, we have some good opportunities. At 2.5 GH/s, they are barely even with difficulty in early Oct. Late Oct? Fuggitaboutit.

Well ... at ~40GH/s at the moment, that's ~0.23139954 BTC a day

So if I guess it's 30% increase each diff change - that's ~ 7.57864296 BTC in 50 days ... from today.

An early Oct delivery, 2 diff changes ... at 30% each ... so starting at ~146Mil diff
50 days (at 30% changes) after that: ~4.51256389 BTC

So ... yeah early Oct delivery would be fine

Late Oct (2 more diff at 30%) would be starting at ~246Mil diff
50 days (at 30% changes) after that: ~2.67818836 BTC
100 days (at 30% changes): ~3.47996368 BTC

Now of course I've said 30% all above ... if on the other hand it was less than 30% ...

Edit: oh also, anything it is over 40GH/s - yeah multiple the BTC by that ratio :)

Just to inform you about our services.

ASIC HARDWARE:
ASIC Hardware is a fully owned subsidiary of the Belgian based company CryptX. ASIC Hardware provides a platform were Bitcoin mining hardware can be ordered. We will be live very soon.

The Bitburner Fury
We will offer fully assembled and tested Bitcoin mining board. The board will hold 16 Bitfury ASIC chips. Our chip order is the first order in the queue of the delivery of 20 September. The board will have an external clock which makes it possible to overclock the chips. The board is designed by Burnin Electronics.

Burnin Mining customers
The existing customers can log in with the same login and password from burninmining.com. They are presented with 3 choices:
•   50% refund of your entire order
•   Recover 70% of your boards + 100% of your shipping costs and accessories as a discount on a Bitfury board order*
•   keep your original order

*If you choose this option, you will automatically receive a coupon that can be used on a Bitfury board order. The coupon will give you the discount you are entitled to.

New customers
We also welcome new customers to our site. We offer the same product to them.

Feel free to ask any questions on info@asic-hardware.com


The CryptX Team

When will asic-hardware.com open the door?

thx.

Also, do you plan to ship worldwide?

Yes we will ship worldwide.

Any plans to offer an affiliate or reseller scheme?

Any word on the actual hash rate of Burnin's board?
How long after Sept 20th do you expect to be able to ship to customers please?

We are the first in the 20 September chip queue.
Delivery dates, prices and hashrate will be public when the site is launched.

Is burnin waiting for the 20th or are sample chips available currently?

Here you can see 1 of the samples he received:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179769.msg2981231#msg2981231

...thanks to some friends...  ;)

Site is online and price with shipping (to germany) and VAT is 895.40€ - are you kidding me?

http://s17.postimg.org/7f2zbai1b/Unbenannt.png

Not interested.

What happened to 470 EUR price?!?

Boards will include chips from September 20th delivery (not mid October), PCB lead time is shortened so we can start shipping first week of October. External clock which enables overclocking (Demonstrated performance of 4GHh/s per chip or 64Gh/s per board).

How long does it take to get my refund code so i can purchase at the discounted rate?

So do you think one week earlier shipping justifies you doubling the price?  Burnin stated originally that he hoped for 5GH/s per chip so 4 is on the money in my mind & doesn't justify a huge money grab.

Disappointed.

Yeah, at this price it's a big no-no...

Holy **** 925€ with shipping to Slovenia, I wont see ROI even if i get it next week, I was so happy when Burnin stated 470€ but now i am really Disappointed.  :-\

When KNC ship, defiantly wont ROI.

even if you don't count KNC it wont ROI

Can we get a price breakdown?
Bitfury chips are worth ~ 360 eur/ board.
If the bitburner board costs about ~150 eur to be produced, components & shipping & profit included, why the hell does this cost two times as much.
Seriously...

you can login - using your burnin acount details - then you can view your orders and get your discout code!
(write it down immediately - you won't be able to see it again)

Bitfurystrikesback:
http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/400gh-miner-october-2013/
16,25€/GH

ASIC HARDWARE:
https://www.asic-hardware.com/product/bitburner-fury-complete-system/
10,74€/GH

Many people asked (and obtained) Avalon chips refunded because of clear issues with the ROI, and we all know how good is http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ to understand the current situation in term of difficulty increase (sadly...).

If we consider the costs and the mining potential of the new burning project and we stick them in the genesis block this is what comes out...is this correct?

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/d5f045682e

This is not a critic, I think this a realistic view of the current situation. I genuinely think that burnin and Cryptx are doing their best in reducing the costs, but delivering a competitive product at this stage is very very difficult if you don't produce the chips!!

I'm asking for a breakdown of the price of the BitBurner Fury board.

Think I have completely messed up my order (#104) now.

"This invoice expired before it was fully paid."

I must have typed in the information wrong or something.

Anyone know how long it takes to get a refund from Bitpay?

I am really disappointed of ASIC manufacturer, each new product comes out to suck out the blood of miners, you could lower your price and sell larger quantity, and you would make the same profit. but each time you aim on making a hell out of miners, you do realize that the last few months miners suffered the most with this pre-order scheme, and delaying not delivering tragedy.

I suggest you to study your prices again, and make a better offer that serve both parties.  

and please for those already ordered, too  ::)

assuming they will work on 80Gh/s and you did choose  October, so you have to cut the first week off and assuming that diff factor will rise only 83% a month.... there you did put the best scenario ever 

Can you clarify the use of 9 BTC as "Cost of Hardware"?

+1  

You're dragging Burnin's good name through the mud with this.  You gave order holders unannounced 24hr notice to change their orders over & pay on a non-ROI'ing system...now you have 24hrs to change your mind on sucking the blood of the people who wanted to stick with Burnin and support him or face mass refund requests.

And for the record, eraziel asked for a breakdown, not a comparison with a system I doubt any of us are actually considering as of today. I guess you must be too ashamed to write your margin.

I know... I was trying to be optimistic... :)

he is right, the cost of hardware without shipping is 8.5 BTC at the moment, add shipping and you get 9.25BTC

This is a not-so-optimistic calculation, but still on the optimistic side: http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/313b4a0fac

So you might get about 0.5 btc over your initial 9btc investment...
I'm not sure how is this supposed to make me want to go for it...

Including VAT this is correct.

I agree that's probably about right. Also have to remember that this calculation is from very start of Oct, but boards will take around a week to arrive I would say, so starting to mine will be mid-Oct.

I think the loss of 20% of the Bitburner board cost (70% -> 50%) & just play with my BTC is a much safer option, at least I wouldn't have to worry about other manufacturers potentially destroying my ROI in a month or so. I really wanted to support Burnin after all he's done, but this is a bit much.

to be honest this is the most close to reality scenario if we include the hardware coming online in October, i will exclude KNC as there is no prove of a working hardware, I will try to speculate about bitfiry only

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/313b4a0fac


I add shipping costs and PSU cost to run these boards, forget about the Raspberry PI because it i so cheap so I didn't add that , a 100% difficulty rise a months still looks optimistic

So does this work with CGminer?

Or is there some custom miner that you have to use?

Thinking about ordering a couple.

yes, that is right, sadly 90% of miners don't have companies to skip paying VAT, and big players wont buy this hardware, they aim for larger and cheaper and better for their mining operation, so you are selling these boards to end customers like me who cant afford that kind of loss

No problem. I put together hardware and shipping costs.

1 bitburner fury €857.89 (incl. VAT) + shipping € 37.51 (incl. VAT)= €895.40 (Includes €155.40 VAT)

Paying via bitpay (current exchange rate 1BTC = 94.0128 EUR), therefore:

Cost in bitcoin paying via bitpay:     895.40/94.0128= 9.524BTC (9 BTC was actually optimistic)

I waited so much for this, but at this price i'm really trying to convince my self to buy, but it's so hard. I prefer to get 50% back from the boards than to buy this. burnin you let me down. The price is so unrealistic.

Just like to point out, me and bartech would be more than happy to have you guys buying from us, as prices that make sence :)

what do you offer ?

Not sure if I'll buy one, 700 instead of 500 is quite a big jump in price

They offer a 21.6 GH/s mining board for 425$ or 19.67$ per GH/s
http://drillbitsystem.com/order.html

We offer a 64 GH/s board for 920$ or 14,37$ per GH/s
(delivery starts first week of October)

= Will be in buyers' hands in the middle of Oct.
And please stop using your VAT-excluded price or start mentioning that it's VAT-excluded every time you give that number.

Thankyouverymuch

I dont know what exchange rates your using, but google tells me

895.40 Euro equals
1191.51 US Dollar

Barntech is known to deliver for the stated price, doesnt double his price randomly, and He will take paypal.
Please, stop fudging the numbers and raising the prices so you can make a stupid profit. Profit is ok. Good profit is good if your business supplies a essential service or good. Doubling the price is called gouging and will not be supported in a open market like this.

REAL NUMBERS:
21.6 GH/s mining board for 425$ or 19.67$ per GH/s
http://drillbitsystem.com/order.html
64ghash board for 1191 (not including btc converison fees) $18.609/GH

Yep, he's just acting dumb quoting his VAT-free price as if every buyer has a company/ isn't going to pay import taxes if outside of EU...

Their price is just overclocked from 2 to 2.5 I think. That is an 8 chip board. What happens if they add the external clock?
Then you have 32Ghash/s (4Ghash/s chip from the stock 2Ghash/s) for 425 or so - DOLLARS (LIKE 300 or so Euro, a bit more). 2 of those gets you 64.

Yeah I dont like comparing OC to non OC. that means the 8 ship board might not mine as much, but will be more proffitable to run in the long term. The bitfury chips are sweet-spot 2-2.5

Differences between €699 is and original price of €470 is probably distributor's margin mostly.
Those who think they will get their boards before early November, I suggest to think twice.
To those wanting to support burnin, you guys could always donate.
I am out and deleting my vote as conditions were changed.

I waited for long to buy a product from burnin and now seeing what was done, I can just feel sorry for the energy, time, effort and money of all people involved (including myself).

@burnin,
I do appreciate your work and effort, and if I may say; you shouldn't allow this to happen.
If distributor is to be blamed, get rid of them and do business with someone having more realistic view on market and with one willing to work with less margin.
If you can't find anyone, do it yourself or you will loose all these people waiting for your boards.
I am speaking this as a friend, and this is just a hobby for me to support network and get involved. Having said that and, I don't want to overpay what ever product I am buying and this one is too expensive for me and probably bad investment with price set way too high.

Are you insane, or just greedy? burnin stated the expected price was around 470 euros per board. This is almost twice as expensive. Cost breakdown, please.

Same deal here, I invest my bitcoin in mining shares, just to not have a massive rig running at home. But I do run some boards as a hobby, and the entire burnin journey was great, but for me it stops at the BitBurners from burnin, and no BitFury's

Just want to quote this for when the first post is edited.

A realistic date to get this devices in hand - November. In that case we dont get ROI. http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/05945f0b55
If we get it in october - we will get a little profit, maybe even 1 BTC per board per year ;)

I am looking an opportunity to sell the place in the first queue because the 50% is not what I expected.

You said it better than me :) Same boat here!

Well said. This is just like Asicminer. I spoke against their pricing months ago, and this is turning into yet another price gouge.

Bloody sad.

Far too expensive, I even considered it with the discount amount from my old Bitburners but will now be changing my choice to "refund"

Think I would rather save my BTC up for a few months then buy at this price.

€470 was such a good price, shame that we got our hopes up!

I really want to hear what Burnin think about all of this ? you stated the price will be around 470€, how can you let your partner take such advantage out of this ? you still can make this right it is not too late....

They probably thought "what the heck, let's charge as much as we dare".

The pricing is set so high these things won't make much profit if they manage to ROI at all. Asicminer v2. What the heck is wrong with people these days? :/

+1
Statement from burnin, please? I am very disappointed...

You know, all this complaining about the price is unnecessary. You can just vote with your BTC's. Then when he starts taking a loss because he's not selling enough, the price falls.

Well i am sure we are voting with our btc too, but i think being vocal is good too.

+1

he will keep miners for himself.

This, I guess I don't understand all the outrage. If the price is too high, they won't sell any and will be forced to lower it. Seriously doubt that will be the case, though, seem to be plenty of people out there who have no problem buying ASICs even with questionable ROI. And price seems to be competitive with other current and upcoming offerings.

Pricing isn't based manufacturing costs, it's based on how much people are willing to pay. Charging the maximum the market will bear isn't greed, it's just smart business. They'd be idiots to give their product away for less than they could get out of it.

On the bright side for those who want it cheaper, with difficulty increasing as fast as it is, probably won't have to wait long at all before it's available for €470 or even less. :D

Yeah, but €470 now isn't the same with €470 in a month :)

You don't take into account us who have already paid these people money to make Avalon chip based miners and now are forced to take a 30% loss in converting our old orders to these new boards. Add to that the insane pricing of these new boards, and it starts to look very bad very soon. We don't even get any compensation in the first wave pricing.


What is idiotic is comments like this. You don't know how much the network hashrate grows in the coming months, and pricing your product so high the miners won't even ROI if the growth is just slightly higher than pessimistic estimates is just plain greedy - offloading the risk to miners. Besides, if every manufacturer followed your advice of not selling to "the public", you'd just get centralization of the network hashpower - the exact opposite that Bitcoin is supposed to achieve.


... and at that point these boards are even less worth the hassle. Seriously, just use your brain and think before posting...

Actually he is true. From a business point of view it's better to sell at what people are willing to pay than at manufacturing costs+small profit, but you need to find the sweet spot.

You weren't forced to take a loss.  You could just supply chips to burnin as you agreed and he will assemble them into boards for you exactly as agreed.

He is generously offering to refund you a proportion of the money that you spent on a non-refundable deal - and you are bitching that he is somehow in the wrong?

roy

That is true in a normal market. This however is more akin to investing than a normal market. Hence also we miners expect to see a return on our INVESTMENT.

Looks like we have a different definition of "generous".

It's called damage control. The Avalon based boards became a total loss already some time ago, hence "forced" to get a refund from group buy and "forced" to convert my order to BitFury based one to lose _less_ than the 50% already stated to be gone.

But hey, if it's bitching in your definition to ask why these new boards are priced so high that even these are a losing proposition... be my guest.

Fact is, someone is price gouging on these new boards, and the question now remains if the idea is just to squeeze as much extra money out of us pre-orderers as possible.

Exactly. They're running a business, not a charity. I mean I can understand people's frustrations, but at the end of the day their job is to make money, not guarantee us a certain ROI or make us money.

And we all know how crazy things have been with Bitcoin and ASICs. Their margins may be healthy with current pricing, but then maybe in 2-3 months they'll have to sell the boards at razor thin margins or even take a loss on them just to get rid of the remaining inventory. How much time and money did they lose on those Avalon boards that became worthless before they even shipped, for example? Very soon the amount of Bitcoins generated by these BitFury boards and price people are willing to pay for them may be exceeded by how much it cost them to purchase the chips/other components and manufacture/distribute the boards. This may all be stuff they're taking into account when you see that €699 price. You have to appreciate that they are taking a risk here as well, it's certainly not only the miners who are putting their $$$ at stake.

It sucks if you canceled another order and waited for these boards based on the projection that they would be cheaper, but unless you were *guaranteed* that these boards would cost €470, not sure what recourse you'd really have. This is the exact reason I don't invest anything in Bitcoin/preorders/ASICs that I'm not willing to lose.

Well i am aware that i wasn't guaranteed that price, but i just trusted burnin. He was usually a man of word and he never said anything about the price going up for this boards and cryptx kept it secret until he opened his store (no idea what's the logic there). I already said that i'm ok with the loss and will try to minimize it and i will move on. I don't have a grudge against anyone.

Sorry didn't mean for the post to sound like it was directed at you, was just speaking generally.

And yeah burnin sounds like a pretty good guy and sounds like he's checking into the pricing to see if there's any wiggle room. Hopefully they can get it down a bit. Sounds like part of the higher cost is just higher parts cost, though. Don't know how much of it is that and how much is CryptX's markup.

This a reason why USA companies prevail when they enter the market. Look at the way HashFast and Cointerra already get in the price-down war, while Euro companies always look at the how much they can earn short-term. Yes, you can place yourself 10% below punin official site, but that should not be an idea. You could have priced your board near price everybody expected and eat the market alive, and your total earnings would be much bigger in the long run.

Burnin actually just emailed me that he doesn't have anything to do with the final pricing of these boards. He stated in another thread that the price rose somewhat (more parts etc) and that he takes a reasonable margin on his work (whatever that is).

We know the chips cost 360 euros per board, so that means there's already 110 euro reserved for parts and labour, design etc. Increase that by maybe 30 euro for reasonable amount, and we'd get about 500 euro for a board from burnin directly. The BitBurner XX assembly etc cost about 100 euro so I don't think I'm that far off with 140 euro for parts, labour etc.

Now you can decide for yourselves if 200 euros for distributor is a reasonable amount. An increase of 40%, and 43% more than I estimate burnin charges for his parts and labour.

By my estimation, the markup of cryptx is around 200 euros. That's quite large at 40%.

The 360 euros for the chips is based on the retail price of the chips, but i was hoping burnin may get a better deal on the chips since he will sell assambled miners and will buy them in bigger numbers, but considering the final price of the board i was awfully wrong.

If they're not willing to sell at a price that doesn't make a loss to the buyer, there is absolutely no point in buying. The smart buyers (those not blinded by the "gold rush") will stay away and invest when there is a reasonable chance at profit. And I don't mean 0,5 BTC profit per board or something ridiculous like that. When I invested in Avalon chip based boards, the indications all were at a reasonable profit, since the days of 10x profit were already gone.


You're dead wrong. The risk is _all_ on the customers investors here. They're not selling at loss, remember.


I didn't say I had invested more than I could lose. I'm at a comfortable spot, having a good chunk of BTC from earlier investments waiting for a good deal. One that makes profit for the seller, and also to me. If the selling part isn't willing to provide me with a _reasonable_ price... well, I can try to convince them to sell for less, or go elsewhere.

+1
If the deal was exclusive, burnin has handed a monopoly to Cryptx and asic-hardware.com.  Cryptx already has his orderbooks from the bitburner - with the correct pricing this would have been a win-win-win for manufacturer-distributor-customer.

I hope this wasn't an exclusive deal and burnin may consider allowing the free market to dictate distributor pricing by stating minimum orders and terms of business for new distributorships.  Group buy anyone?  TBH unless anyone has volumes of Bitfury chips about to be shipped, it's almost academic and the monopoly will both prevail and likely fail (if that's even possible!), dragging burnin's reputation down with it.

It would be quite bad if cryptx has an exclusive deal with burnin. I'm thinking forward too, looking at the next gen board burnin is supposed to make (CoinCraft). If cryptx is the distributor for those also, I can cross that off my "follow closely" list.

I contacted burnin about distributing his products stateside, but unfortunately received no response.

Same here.

I think pricing is quite fair but where's the 8-chip board?!

I had an order for 105 EUR BitBurner, 150 total incl. raspi and shipping. Now I'm supposed to get discount for a 700 EUR product. Avalon-based model used to be the best (and maybe even only) entry-level miner on the market. The new one is not anymore.

Then you clearly haven't done the math on this offer. Please do.

It's not very economical to make an 8-chip board because of the fixed cost of the parts.

I've done some. It's something like 0.13 BTC/GH + burnin madskillz overclocking up to 20%, I believe, with delivery in early October. May still make sense, although it's a high risk.

Even with identical board and 8 chips it will be 520 EUR (700 - 180). Say 600 with shipping and accesories. Which is 0.2 BTC/GH. If burnin overclocks the chip to 5 GH, it becomes 0.16 BTC/GH.

Dont forget to add VAT unless your exempt.  Then go and have a look at the latest difficulty chart.  Then think about will happen once all those KNC and Bitfury products ship in a few weeks.

What's your point? You find that economical?

I do.  It's the going market rate for delivering units.  It's the same as MBP/BFSB's pricing.  If you can't justify or afford this price at this point in time, you're just not going to be mining for BTC.  It's just a fact.

I'm outside EU, and I don't think I'll have to pay VAT. I'm watching the difficulty chart. And I know where one can sell 1GH for 0.5350.385 BTC now ;). KNC haven't even shown a prototype, and it's already middle of September (http://i.imgflip.com/2r1zb.jpg). Difficulty growth is limited by BTC price.

Bitfury themselves are selling completed kits at close to .15/Gh. Why would you pay more to add in two additional points of failure? This product was marginally attractive at a price point below what can be obtained by ordering direct from bitfury. At a price premium to bitfury it shouldn't leave the drawing board.

I'd actually rather bet on burnin than Bitfury themselves as he has shown excellent performance (the best known, i guess?) with Avalon chips plus fast assembly and support. Delay between him and Bitfury is 1-2 days for shipping of the chips.

I would bet on burnin too, just not at this price.

I like burnin and find him to be trustworthy in addition to being a talented engineer. I do not like his choice of apparently exclusive vendors. The problem is not the product, the problem is the price and the reputation of the vendor he's chosen to force everyone to deal with.

After forfeiting 30% on the trade-in, now we are expected to add 40% more for a middle-man.
Unless you receive the board at the beginning of October there is no ROI at all, thanks, but no thanks.
This price is ridiculous.

I traded in for 70 % even if i was bit dispointed but burning can you at least provide assembly of bitfury chips for your confirmed customers? that paid and not asked for refund?

This was my first chance to get into the ASIC game where I could order and get something within a few weeks, I was happy to pay €470-500 each and had gathered $5000 between myself and a friend but when I saw €699 you lost me completely, what a shame. At this rate I will stick with my 14GH GPU rigs I got going with scrypt based coins

ridiculous price.

I will probably ask for a refund.
 

Burnin, please address the issue.

I and many others have requested a price structure breakdown for the BitBurner Fury boards due to the vast difference (470 to 700) between the projected price and price offered now.
We know that the Bitfury chips that go on the board cost 360 eur (given that you didn't get any additional discount).
That means that your estimation of 110 eur for development & your profit margin is now all the way up to 340 eur.
That is roughly three times the originally anticipated amount.
You stated in another thread that board development/production expenses have increased.
Does that mean trippled?

You said that your margin has remained reasonable.
What about your distributor's margin?
The notion around the forum is that the priced offered for the BitBurner Fury by CryptX is based not on the development/production costs, but rather on the prices of competitors' products.
Do you have anything to say about that. Do you have any say in the price that YOUR product is being offered at (MSRP)?
I am really not in the business of feeding resellers.

Do you have a legally binding agreement with CryptX that his organisation is the exclusive distributor for your boards?

If you were overwhelmed by all the customer care/shipping work you could have just required a minimum size order (e.g. 30k eur worth of equipment or more) and then let group buy organizers do their thing.
That's not anything new.

I feel very frustrated with the way things went and this is not in anyone's interest.

I don't think he meant such a drastic increase. I guess an increase of a few tens of euros would be in the ballpark.


I'm positive this is all down to the distributor's greed. I've asked many questions about this on the forums as well, but cryptx has declined to answer publicly. He however answered my email last night, but the answers were typical boilerplate, so no point in repeating that here.


Word. We need to let the distributor know that price gouging won't work. It's simple, we refuse to take all the risk with rising difficulty, and we refuse to line the pockets of middle men.

+1

With the 24hr window closing in the next 30mins its incredibly frustrating that cryptx is refusing to answer any questions.  I have an extremely low order number, which would make ordering more attractive were it not the total lack of communication. If cryptx is like this now, imagine the lack of response after orders have been placed.

"Price is what the market will bear" is fine in _normal_ market. This however is far from normal, and there are large risks in investing. See, I used the word invest, since this is very akin to investing, with risks. However currently all indicators point to hashrate rising exponentially for quite some time, so investing in mining hardware is _risky_. Therefore buying mining gear is a risky proposition and the prices should reflect that, and the sellers shouldn't try to offload all the risk on the investors (miners).

The problem recently has been that people have bought overpriced mining gear stupidly and without adequate analysis. That has led the sellers to believe they can price their gear near or even over the ROI limit. Well, that time is over now. You do a disservice when you try to brush this issue aside with sweeping remarks like that.


Please, by all means, share your superior method of predicting how the hashrate will behave in the coming year.

Hint: it won't decrease nor stay the same. The only way is up, but by how much and how quickly is the question.

Speaking about 83% diff, I wonder where is that taken from? History of increases shows much more then that. And profitability is non existent if you put the numbers which match the history.

I think we are entering the few monthes period of frustration for miners who will not get ROI, followed by price drops on ASICs.

Being quiet is all intentional. He/they are watching how many people bite the bullet and order anyway. This does indeed paint a very worrying picture of the kind of person(s) we're dealing with here.

I think the key question in my post is whether or not there is an legally binding agreement about CryptX being the exclusive distributor of Burnin products.

If the answer is no then we can definitely work something out.
If, however, the answer is yes, that only means that I'll never own a BitBurner Fury :)

I fear you are right. However, once I drop to the back of the queue that is even less incentive to buy. I definitely wouldn't buy if I lost my spot, even with a drop in price.

What makes me most sad in this whole thing is that most probably the reseller's margin is MUCH LARGER than the developer/producer's.
HOW FUKING DISGUSTING IS THAT.
AND IF SO WHY DID BURNIN ALLOW FOR IT.
I really hope there's no exclusivity agreement in place and other distributor(s)/group buyers can step in.

burnin made a mistake when he transferred the whole user database.

I guess cryptX saw how many pending orders are there and made this unacceptable pricing policy.

he left us with no choice:

1. pay for Fury burners at premium prices
2. go back to burnin for 50 % refund

well it seems they are tied in quite tight. Also, this quote made me feel that the refunds may be reliant on how many boards Burnin can sell through cryptx. Given that he/they are throwing away a lot of business with this pricing I worry about his refund ability. Silly, because with a small price drop I think most people would just convert...

look, no offense, but you may not exactly understand the history of this. It's not a question of comparing to other companies because we all made decisions based on the estimated price we were given in the OP. To put it simply:

1. people were screwed over by Bitsyncom by non-delivery of Avalon chips.
2. people were informed of the possibility to switch from bitburner to the bitfury version & given a price estimate.
3. people then cancelled the Avalon chips based on 2).
4. price for bitfury board then increased more than 50% (240 euro) and plus extra vat for those in the EU, leaving many people stranded.

It appears not to be Burnin's fault, but that of his price gouging distributor. Be that as it may, it is what it is so pls don't ask people to just sit there & take it. And people are more vocal here because many of us still want to support Burnin & would happily put up with a price increase but not just to line the pockets of an overcharging distributor.
I think 50-100 euro for the distributor is fine, and assuming Burnin needed an extra 40 euros in costs for the boards approx 550-600 Euro would be a fair price for all concerned.

So we agree on that the rate will go up? Then what are you arguing about now? Following a simple economic model, the hashrate will increase until electricity costs will force the less efficient miners to quit mining, at which point we will see the network hashrate level up.


You need to understand investing is not the same as buying and consuming stuff.

About asicminer... if you look at my posting history, you'll see how I predicted ages ago how their units would never ROI and spoke against their prices. You don't need to tell me about that.


This is not so much about bitfury chips as this is about unreal margins on the part of the greedy distributor. Read up on the history behind this, please.

I have a crazy revelation for you.
Go and do your analysis on the price of the original BitBurner board.
To simplify the task for you I'll give you some specs: it hashes at 8.8Gh/s and it's price was effectively 3.5 BTC shipped with VAT included.
IT WAS AVAILABLE AT THAT PRICE 1 MONTH AGO WHEN THE CLOSEST COMPETITOR PRODUCT WAS AM's BLADE RUNNING @ 12Gh/s OC'ED AND THE PRICE WAS 10 BTC

The difference is that with the previous board the PRICING WAS TRANSPARENT.
Everybody knew what they're paying for.
Avalon fucked everything, but that's not the point.
THE POINT IS THAT THE PREVIOUS BOARD WAS NOT PRICED SO THAT IT'S 10% BELOW THE COMPETITION
AND THAT WAS NOT WAVED AROUND AS IF EVERYBODY SHOULD BE BOWING DOWN IN GRATITUDE FOR THESE 10%.

well the problem is not the price only, the problem that we do not know the specification of these boards yet, there is no prove that they got the chips working at 4 Gh/s to get the midle 60Gh/s and there is just no prove for that 80Gh/s all what we know that the board work between 40-80Gh/s which is a crazy and illogical scope... this is why I cant tell what is the real value of these boards, and this is why I have to say that they will perform only at 40Gh/s (the minimum) in this case they are soooooo expansive and the price is unacceptable.

yes, thats true. However, I feel that if Burnin can get a single chip to 4GH/s then personally I'm inclined to believe that he can transfer that speed to a full board. So for me at least the main issue is price.

But I'm with you on the performance issue, it would be a lot more reassuring to receive clearer specs like Burnin did with the original boards tho

Just stop writing right now, and go read up on the history of this BitBurner XX board and Avalon mess. Your ignorance is showing.

edit: for your information, that 70% refers to the fact that we already lost 30% of the money we paid for the previous product that failed to materialize en masse because of Avalon's delays.

+1  go troll somewhere else

I am not sure about that.

First> there is no chip binning at bitfury. so if you get a board with one or two chips that are dead or under performing, you can say goodbye to your ROI.

Second> bitfury's cscape original H board design (with 16 chips) wasnt able to get the full specified hashrate at first shot.

To add to that, you need to tweak the individual chips sometimes quite aggressively to get acceptable hashrate from them. Also, BFSB had to send more hardware to many buyers because their boards failed to achieve the stated hashrate.

This is probably why cryptx refuses to give any promises - to avoid having to add hardware to purchases when/if they fail to deliver the stated hashrate. In that light, it is very close to fraudulent marketing that he a) refuses to state a clear hashrate guarantee, and b) avoids telling if they will honor the guarantee and ship extra hardware if they fail to make good on the promises.

You. You didn't even know what that 70% meant until I told you. I repeat, go read up on the history behind this whole ordeal. Besides, you never stated you were talking about "fresh guys".

go look in the mirror & the person looking back at you is the one who is trolling.

If you are trying to "help" new customers why are you arguing and trying to incite existing customers with your uninformed opinions.

My 2 cents:

Cryptx prices are commercial prices.
We want DIY prices.

FYI: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179769.msg3167973#msg3167973

I just want to be sure everyone reads this and why cryptX does not even has interest in making reasonable prices.



Burnin please say that you will also allow one Groupbuyer to also buy in bigger quantities from you. We as community dont want to deal with them in any way. And all what they want is to set up miners for there own farm. Yeah what ? Fuck them im really pissed at this stage.
The only chance to get DIY for a reasonable price died with some people who does not even want to distribute miners. awesome.

I have sent him 3 pms now about possibility of a GB for cheaper. Nothing. Not a Peep.

He is just busy, so might not have time to answer each and every PM. Just give him time :)

I sent him PMs too in the past and while he didn't replied i am sure that he reads all of them and takes them in consideration so no need to spam him.

I could be wrong but I don't think Burnin does discounts. At least that is what he said with Avalon bitburners. I don't think you will get a reply if you ask for a discount.

Does that apply to cryptx as well? Impressive that he would set up a distributor site just for the good of the community...

I don't even have time to read the forum anymore.   :-\


Anyway have some PCB Pr0n:
http://imageshack.us/a/img94/1360/8lit.jpg


http://imageshack.us/a/img692/1039/sba2.jpg

Looks great burnin.

Are you looking for US vendors?

Would be nice to know will there be more distributors in addition to cryptx?

...and he's gone without answering again. :-\

Sounds like cryptx = exclusivity. Unfortunate as the product and developer are worthy of patronage, but the chosen vendor is not.

Dustbin of history...you have another entry it seems.

Yes we can! :)

creativex you should've contacted burnin faster than this, i'm sure he is a reasonable guy.

Yeah, just a confirmation would be nice as some people have been hinting that there might be other options coming.

I did. As did others.

18 days ago. Crickets.

Pretty much. Its not just that hes so buisy... its just without people like us he would have to do even more work.

BTC Creativex I admire the way you run your fund and would defiantly give you my vote to US distribute.

Thanks bobsag3. We're going the bitfury route one way or another as it's the best chip out there atm. I like burnin's work and would like to help make it more accessible, but it's not competitive with the currently available vendor markup.

Does someone know how to set up these boards with CGMiner?

The question is if cgminer is supported first of all...

I guess if somebody sends the hardware to ckolivas or kano, the chances would be high.

damn... built one with fury chips already?? do you sleep burnin?

I PM'd burnin about this already but he's been rather busy as we all know so I've not heard back yet.
Indeed once I have the hardware it will be in cgminer master git soon after.

P.S. I've got the CMR working on all 4 chips on linux, only to find windows doesn't work :P
... linux took me 3 rewrites of the the changes to get it working and understand how to handle that USB chip :)
I've been talking to one of the libusbx devs and hopefully have the windows issue resolved shortly.
The first commit to master git will be it hashing on all 4 fgpa - then I'll add the glasswalker extensions after that.
Just thought you'd like an update :)

Thanks! Will try this out.  It's just sad that due to lack of cooperation from Enterpoint it's taken this long for a benefactor to get one to you. 

Sadly, the CM1's are slipping underwater in terms of ROI vs. Power within the few difficulty updates.  Well, maybe someone will breathe life into them with an LTC implementation. Who knows.

Genuine thanks though for the effort.  I've been a critic, but you're true to your word re: active support on your terms and I respect that.  I guess all along my beef was with Enterpoint not supporting cgminer rather than vice versa.

well I know that burnin is really busy and working hard, but this project started as DIY which is really great for all miners, we had faith and support but now it is heading to the wrong way with cryptx, allot of members are rising their concerns about this and we would like to hear good answer from burnin about that, he has been silent and didn't address this issue.

Funny how nobody mentions this, but haven't BitBurner miners supposed to be open-source? If they were open-sourced cryptx tyranny of 200-300+ EUR price rise would be impossible, everyone could buy raw PCBs from Burnin which could include handsome design fee and produce DIY miner. We don't even need open-sourced PCB, just the rest of the design and PCB supply from Burnin.

Glasswalker extensions would be appreciated. It probably won't make any measurable profit for me anymore (I only have 2 of them and they are picky about USB hubs/cables) but at least it would enable me to use cgminer for all my FPGAs instead of a mix of cgminer and MPBM. Will tip 1 month of profit if it works seemlessly: ~0.1 BTC today.

 

CryptX is supplying the chips - and has one of the first of the '20 September' batches of chips - which he says he already has in hand.  So any other source of boards someone would have to get hold of some chips (at what cost?  and when would they ship?  Does anyone have them in stock at a sensible price?)

And we really don't know how much profit either burnin or CryptX is making on this - we know that burnin said the component costs were higher than he had anticipated.  Am I disappointed that it's not 470 Euros?  Sure.  But like any other product, it is up to you and me to decide if it is worth it or not at the price offered.

I haven't seen either burnin or CryptX do anything wrong up to now, and really don't get what has some people so upset.

As far as the Avalon miners go, they were sold with no refund.  If burnin now offers a refund, you can't really complain that you don't like the terms.

And as for CryptX's own mine - you really think he should cancel plans for a mine because he agreed to distribute the Fury boards?  Besides, AIUI CryptX is supplying the chips for the Bitburner Fury boards he distributes, so every chip going into a board we buy is a chip not going into his mine.

As always, too much drama in this forum.  I just want my Bitburners to arrive (both XX and Fury) :)

roy

You are right. It is everyones own decision to stick with them or not. Hate did start because people have choosen the refund bitfury option due to its announced price at ~ 470€. People also did calculate that it would be possible that the product will be a little more expensive (~max 100€). As they choose to refund their chips and stick with the bitfury option, their decision was made. With cryptX announcing the price at 895€ incl. VAT, people got afraid that they are now facing a bigger loss than sticking with the original boards.

That was the main reason for the whole anger. Another point was that cryptX announced the product with 40Gh/s - 80Gh/s specs, which are totally nonsense and yeah groundbreaking bullshit.(reason: with that specs its just gambling like with two 'ones' on the flop going all in.)  They took the best scenario case for their pricing but right now are only able to deliver 64Gh/s.

I mean watch that yourself.
Maybe cryptX scenario: http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/cfaff574e0

Your scenario: http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/ae8f397a64

That is the best case for you, if you dont pay any electricity and use eligius as pool. You also need to deduct one week + 2 days shipping. Also did KNC Announce that they will do everything to deliver in end of september. If they really do so the hashrate will significantly jump really high, in a short time. CryptX is a business man and they did their calculations really well, if knc joins the market they dont even care.


In short:
All people who have choosen that path because it did look more shiny than the avalon path are now jumping through a way full of possible traps and spikes. But yeah, it is your decision.

^^ This is a good summary.

But there is more.  To add insult to the injury already inflicted by Yifu, Burnin and CryptX have also now gone into hiding over the issues raised.  This has further raised anger, and added to the the speculation, that we are being ripped off.

this is business.
bfl is ripping off.

disclaimer: I did not order

That's right. But it wasn't. It was opensource DIY kit at sensible prices. Overnight something changed, and nobody is talking.

I'm not sure it was ever announced at 470 Euro.  It was an estimated possible price of a future product that wasn't, at that point, even definitely going to be release.

But yes, I think people emotionally commited to the 470 Euro Bitfury board as being the magic money-earning board that would recoup their Avalon losses.

Word to the wise: there is no longer any such thing as a magic money earning board.

roy

It's long since not been a DIY project.   It was a full time 7-day-a-week job for burnin for far too long.  Hence why he was chosen not to spend the time on the forums and not deal with customers direct at all for his new product.

Also, for someone working full time on this, he deserves to earn a decent salary from his work.

roy

EDIT TO ADD: burnin went the reseller route because he didn't have the time to devote to the forums, so his absence is expected.  CryptX's absence is slightly more disappointing.  His customer service, over e-mail, has been top notch, but he's not exactly doing anything in the forums to engage with the community.

Cost of the chips went up...everybody understands that. The prices are listed right on bfsb for anyone to calculate. The difference in chip prices doesn't come close to explaining the difference between initially estimated prices for this project and current asks. It's disappointing because it's no longer a viable product and another point of failure has been added. You now have to trust, not only burnin(easy), but cryptx(not).

And as for the speed....  I'm sure CryptX is just quoting the specs burnin has given to him.

Well, we all bought burnin's Bitburner boards, nominally 5.62 GH/s, but comfortably overclockable to 8.62 GH/s, and to 9 GH/s or more at a pinch.

We all know the specs of the Bitfury chips.... on paper the boards can do 40 GH/s.  Burnin has said he's aiming to get 5 GH/s per chip - which would give us 80 GH/s per board.... but who knows what the overclocking capabilities of this chip is - burnin is driving it faster than anyone else ever has, so no one knows what the capabilities are.

I'm happy to place my order for a couple of boards based on my belief that burnin will produce a well designed product that will push the chips to their limit.  But yes, it's a gamble.

I don't see how it's CryptX's fault that burnin is being honest rather than pulling a figure out of the air like most of the other vendors do and quoting performance figures for products that havan't even been built yet.  I don't see how burnin can win here - whatever he does there will be people in these forums that will rip him to pieces.  I quite understand why he doenst want to deal with the forums and would rather leave them to soeone else.

roy

More than single someone else would have been far better. No pricing competition + greedy untrustworthy vendor = stillborn product.

Unless you know what CryptX is paying burnin for the boards (and how much he is paying for the chips) you (or I) have no idea whether he is greedy or not.

And it's too early to tell whether he's trustworthy or not.  As I said, I've not seen anything he's done so far that has caused me concern.  (EDIT: Sure I'm disappointed with the price, but I have no idea whether that's due to CryptX being greedy, burnin being greedy, the Bitfury chips being more expensive than expected, the boards being more compciated than expected, all of the above, or none of the above.  I prefer not to speculate without information.)

Anyway, time will tell.  There's nothing more I can add here.

EDIT TO ADD: Jumping to conclusions and assuming the worst is par for the course in these forums.  It shoudln't be, but it is.  I understand that burnin would rather spend his time developing boards than reading the forum, but it should be CryptX's job to read the forums and respond to concerns, accusations, criticisms, etc.  CryptX is really not doing a good job of promoting the product he's supposed to be reselling.

I don't have an issue with burnin. I doubt he's any happier than us how cryptx makes a stinking mess of the good name and image of his designs. My issues all lie squarely with cryptx, who are greedy price gougers. Their margins probably are way more than what burnin gets, and that's typical of profiteering middle men who actually bring no added value to the table.

Fair enough. I deal in crypto securities daily and wouldn't trust cryptx with a bitcent, but that's for everyone else to decide for themselves.

Burnin's earlier estimate of 470 eur per board can't be that far off the mark. He's an electronics designer by trade, and I am quite sure he can make accurate estimates.


That is the most likely party to point fingers at.


burnin has stated several times his margins are quite low. Of course he's not provided exact numbers, but f.ex. looking at his BitBurner XX design and how cheap it is, it's a good comparison. EDIT: that 470 eur price was chips included, which we know to cost 360 eur per board. So 110 eur per bare board + components + design + assembly etc. Add maybe 30-40 euro max per board for unforeseen cost increases and we're still at a reasonable price.


The prices have been well known. 22,5 eur per chip. A big buyer (more than a few reels?) might even get volume discounts.


burnin stated that the price rose somewhat, which I've earlier taken to mean maybe 30-40 eur per board, max.


We have plenty information if you bother to look for it.

Sure, but they weren't known when burnin estimated EUR 470, so quite possibly he was using a lower price in his estimate.  Also, you need to order at least five reels (of 3,000 chips each) to get a discount - so maybe, maybe not - that's quite a lot of chips to order up front.  And lets allow cyrptx the 10% markup on the chips that we allowed zefir and sebastian.

Sure, none of that explains the EUR 700 price....  I think you can easily come up with scenarios which justify EUR 600, but I agree it's hard to see where the EUR 700 goes.... and the silence here does no one any favours.

But as I say (despite your assertions to the contrary) we have little to no information;  mainly just speculation.

I assumed this before

CryptX is not a 'he' as in 1 person. It's a company founded by 2 people.

Is this project dead then? No activity on this thread for 5 days is quite eloquent....
What a sad end..

DIY by burnin is dead :-(
commercial by cryptx here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294735.0 :-((

Looks like Burnin went to "the dark side".  Please do not fund Cryptx hashing farm with this Bitfury burner price scam.
Just ask for a refund.  The product is not worth the price, you will not even break even with this price - ROI
- forget about it.  So do  yourself a favor and let them use their  own many to fund their hashing farm.

Maybe he will not be the only reseller after mid October:

I know :-)) That's why I am hoping Burnin himself will do it again for larger orders (25 boards).

Me too! I don't think I will ever buy any ASIC (sure not soon), but burnin's Bitfury was one of the most interesting.

Untill the shocking prices from CryptX, of course!!!  :o :o :o

I'd like to keep things a bit "local" as well for Burnin.
Support him and try to get him to get most of the money for his work and not resellers. (No offense resellers, but that is my feeling.)
Perhaps there is another way as there is something special about DIY's and BTC.
I don't want to lose that.

I don't have big pockets but would love, in the near future to buy a 500 Euro or so miner from Burnin. Would be nice to make a small profit but would be happy to break even. Nice hobby and supports the network.

IAS

Many people were ready to order lots of boards from burnin himself, not from resellers. Someone suggested that he could sell 10 boards minimum or 25 minimum so people can organize group buys. I think this is a good option for both burnin and customers.

This is a good idea, releasing Burnin from burden of dealing directly with customers. If 25 minimum is too small he can raise it to 100, it will be no problem for a group buy to organize with usual (up to 10%) organizer fee instead of high reseller margins.

I don't think its that easy. I think there is a contract between seller and reseller, so that this will not happen... The reseller will not be very happy if the manufacturer directly sells to the end-customer...

Now it's too late, but the idea stays for the next product.

Contract ends October 15th, Burnin said so.

This morning I received fedex shipment notification from Cryptx, and that my order should arrive Wednesday morning. Still no info on the software (custom CG miner build I believe).

is there even hardware specs available for the board?

Bingo, and how many here are waiting?

Countdown clock anyone?  ;D

http://jillsbooks.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/raise-your-hand1.jpg

I too, received a fedex email indicating I should be receiving 4 Bitburner Fury boards on Wednesday.

I think cryptx has already said that those dates are autogenerated by Fedex when the shipping labels are printed, and that we shouldn't rely on them.  But that the units are still on track to ship this week.

Disappointed at the lack of info though, if our units are really days away from shipping.  Surely they must have at least rough specs and preliminary software at this stage?  I'd much prefer it if they were working with ckolivas and kano to get the driver into cgminer, rather than just promising us some magic version of cgminer will be available on the day...

roy

Why do all these projects seem to go pear shaped?  One minute you have something that looks like it might make ROI @470EUR then the next minute a 48% price rise to 699EUR which has no chance.

Buyers have a power that should be used better.

Any news regarding... 


???

Unfortunately i won't pay more than 5$/GH given the difficulty increase and i don't think we will see boards for 200$.