Bitcoin Forum

Link to the official pricing and shipping times:
----------------------------
http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/
----------------------------
(at the bottom)
** Notice the Virtual Mining/VMC , having the best prices per hash, and them being 28nm chips.



So it seems that we have a race here,

and the racers are: ActiveMining(VMC), CoinCraft, KnCMiner, CoinTerra

Most are shipping their chips, during november, ActiveMining promissed, to ship, by the end of october..

Coincraft - by december

KnCminer - by the end of november

and CoinTerra saying during January's batch...

Hashfast -  shipping in mid to late november

BFL - November/December (initial shipping), and January/February (bulk shipping)

So lets see who's gonna win this race, starting october to december will be indeed an interesting times for bitcoin.

also BFL and hashfast...

BFL will _definitely_ not win the race, with their "shipping in 2 weeks" trade mark.

and yea forgot hashfast - shipping in mid to late november

now, dont get me wrong I hate BFL w/ every fiber in my body but... at least theyve shipped something. All the companies are vaporware at this point afaik.

So your bets are on BFL to win the race... Ok.

BFL can produce a product, but their time to market is atrocious.  And their estimations have always been terrible.  If you aren't 1st in line with them, don't bother.

It now depends who has the deepest pocket.  ::)

ASIC has basically transformed the industry into this, yes.  Unless you have product in your hands right now, the benefit is back in the hands of old money again.  What else is new...

Pretty sure KNC is supposed to ship by the end of September

I see this race as largely irrelevant, but unless knc stumbles at the finish line(or bfl's everyone) the 28nm trophy is theirs to win.

Process node is only one factor in determining efficiency however. Bitfury beat them all to market with a 55nm chip that's significantly more efficient than the likely front running 28nm chip. Going forward bitfury's 55nm chip looks like it will remain competitive, from an efficiency standpoint, with all of the announced 28nm vaporware and woe to the competition if bitfury shrinks that chip with good results.

here: https://i.imgur.com/ViHHvcX.png

Chance that BFL will actually be around long enough to ship chips? >50%

Obviously you haven't been paying attention. Their first batch is due for sept shipping, they are now on third batch orders for Nov shipping.

No, that's a later order -- the first batch is being shipped by the end of September.  Research your topic, pl0x.

That only applies to orders placed now, there was a price cut on knc products. I think it unlikely knc will ship in quantity this month, but they appear likely to ship in bulk in October.

Edit: uh yeah...I'm slow. :)

I'm pleased we're finally getting close to the finishline, at least. With any luck, the market may hit a bit of maturity, and the hashrate will be, well, predictable if not stable.

Isn't Avalon working on 2nd gen chips?

'

Avalon is already working on 3rd gen 28nm chips for their server farms.

If KNC actually delivers around 2PH by 15th of Oct, will the other companies face a wave of cancelled orders? Or KNC itself for the Nov shipping orders?

Many of the pre-order vendors will not face a wave of cancellations as they don't allow refunds. The fact that this policy is illegal for American based companies doesn't seem to be much of an obstacle. Bfl really set the bar here.

I believe some people should really think about just purchasing coins as your investment in Bitcoin.  Right now we have a ton of hardware coming online and until a bulk of it has brought the difficulty to where it needs to be, you should hold off putting new money to work. 

I agree. The difficulty is going up so fast, most of these devices will likely be unprofitable. Not to mention all of these companies are unproven and have not ever released a single product, much less a Bitcoin ASIC.

Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment, but I am suggesting to my diversified group buy participants that we hold our BTC until Avalon announces 2nd gen prices/specs, rather than order some of the currently available vaporware offers.

AT LEAST one of the new vendors will have delays. I speculate KNC will have delays, they have been awfully quiet as of late. I would be surprised if at least one of the other companies doesn't suffer from delays as well.

How difficult and expensive would it be for a company to make 20 nm chips after they've already made 28 nm?

Not difficult, but expensive. Outside of chipzilla there aren't all that many fabs with 20nm capacity. TSMC just got serious about 20nm in April:

http://focustaiwan.tw/news/atod/201304010042.aspx

It seems unlikely that it would be worth the expense to shrink from 28 to 20nm for vendors of btc mining hardware.

are you calling activemining/VMC vaporware? look at this:

http://www.easic.com/vmc-uses-easic-to-achieve-24-756-ths-bitcoin-miner/

and is USA based... and well funded.

How do i find this page if i don't have the full address?  I go on eAsic site, i click on "Company->eASIC Press Releases," and get a comprehensive catalog of press releases, all the way to the year 2000.  Here: http://www.easic.com/easic-company/press-releases/   No mention of this.  How come?

are you blind or just trolling?

https://i.imgur.com/ODIQYzv.png

BFL and even KNC are seeing lots of refund requests. I see this on their forums every day.

BFL via Paypal / Credit Card companies forcing them, and KNC is offering refunds to anyone who requests without an issue.
(KNC hasn't even started to deliver yet, and are not behind on schedule and people are still refunding their orders.)

Everything BFL makes is out of date and can't make break even at this point....even their vapor ware 'Monarch'.


Most people are starting to figure out that if KNC mining equipment can barely make break even that almost no ones equipment is going to break even.

The number of people who are interested in mining for long term at a loss is very very little.

I believe we are going to see an overshoot and a crash in the hashrate after new year. (Similar to the April bitcoin crash.)

Who is buying new equipment? No one, everyone who has looked to the future is asking about refunds.
Who is bringing new hardware to market? At least a half dozen companies all saying they are going to "be a dominant force" in the bitcoin mining hardware market...sometime around Dec.

In reality by Dec they will be sitting on hardware that no one wants....the price will have to drop to a point where these units can make a few bucks.
That number may be below the cost of building these devices at that point.

Basically if you don't have a preorder almost ready to ship...you are out of the mining race.
Even if you do it is likely you will just break even.

There is no next gen after ASIC's....at least I haven't read about anything more powerful.

So we will be stuck in a rut, limited by the best ASIC's we can design and pump out.

What are they going to do keep building bigger ASIC mining hardware? That is the same as adding more USB miners to your farm at this point.

KnC have been anything but quiet of late. Their wafers have left the fab, and are currently being packaged.

Hashfast have promised 20th-30th Oct, removed any refund and accountabulity, then changed that to 'anticipated' AFTER taking funds, released a refund window of 14 days in Jan, offered a 14 day warranty, changed their terms and conditions umpteen times, and now both claim to have the right to change products spec at will, and change all terms of sale, or sever them at will without agreement of the buyer. People should really go take a gander at their latest terms. They changed them 5 times last week alone, adding a massive red flag. I'm still waiting for someone to spot it. That's in addition to their questionable marketing ethics, flase twitter accounts, shady effort to raise funds starting at $0.5mil investment through a shell company called Gridfinity, and a miner protection plan, that costs them nothing in the scheme of things and the buyer plenty of time and money, and in effect protects squat.

Cointerra at least now offer secure payment methods, but like Hashfast offer a best case simulated estimate of Hashrate and not a realistic deliverable. Unlike Hashfast they haven't lied about delivery and to secure funds and changed their terms after receiving payment, which is fraud.

I'm still waiting to see Bitfury's real world hashrate and power results from individual users on video, but to his credit even though it's not turned out totally as planned, for a sole effort, the boy's impressive.

BFL...

Bitsyncom are the biggest upset, they had it all in their hands, a once in a lifetime chance, and they got corrupt and blew it for greed.

VMC, something seems wayyy off there. Deleting forum posts is not good business practice, neither is staffing the whole operation with your family. Regardless of whether eASIC is onboard their 28nm design choice may bring speed to market, but not competitive performance.

XCrowd I always said were a waste of time and I was slated for it, yet who was right? Fact is you cannot manufacture devices like these based around good looking devices with many expensive parts that are time consuming and costky to assemble, and have many points of failure, but apparently people in this forum are easily blindsided by aesthetics over function. It was clearly an attempt at a scam from the off, but they were screwed by demands for secure payment methods.

People need to be wary of power consumption estimations, I'm not a KnC shill, I never have been, all I've ever done is pointed out that they are the only company staffed by experienced engineers with know how that have been honest with the factual information that they have had to hand at the time. Real engineers will not promise marketing hype to tie up your funds without accountability. They promise what they know is possible and adjust the predictions as and when the data available becomes reality by being proven fact. Good business practice offers secure payment methods.

Start adding solar panels to your datacentre. :)

-MarkM-

Obviously you haven't been paying attention to what you read... im talking about the arms race on 28mn chips in this _thread_

But you do realise that KnC aim to deliver their first batch of 28nm in a few days, right?

KNC is shipping the very same chip in November as they are in September.  The very same one.  You illiterate or just trolling?
AFA PR release -- blind.

It's a thoroughly mind bending amalgamation of converging and opposing factors: given a price drop, all equipment becomes more expensive to buy at current manufacturers profit margins. But depending on the size of the hashrate falloff, some equipment may stay competitive... both first gen ASICs that quit before the drop, and the readjusted ROI on new equipment (with the requisite price cuts factored in, of course)

Alongside this, several technical/usability advances will hit the client market: some form of faster blockchain download (including verification performance improvements), the payments protocol, possibly blockchain compression, and several other possibilities that I can't quite recall right now. Additionally, the system is gathering more mainstream interest and acceptance (including authoritative recognition in the form of the ISO trading code as well as a an official "BTC" Unicode character). Will any of the promising new exchanges get off the ground? Will the Winklevoss ETF clear the hurdles before January?

So much relevant and influential activity concentrated into the next few months, and that's without even mentioning the events that aren't known to be on the cards... I'm not sure what to expect, but it's going to be dramatic

I find it funny that you're still championing KNC over every other vendor. There is only a week and a half left in September. When the end of the month comes, I expect to be proven correct, that KNC will delay... how long will they delay? That's anyone's guess.

Like seriously, wtf Bitcoinorama. Is it really that hard to see why people think you're a shill? There's only a week and a half left for KNC to meet their initial shipping deadline and no signs they will ship in the next week and a half, yet you are still glorifying them. It's like an abused wife denying she's being abused while her husband is in mid-swing...

PS: Nothing personal bitcoinorama. I like you and like having you around. However, I find it puzzling how you can be so blind to think KNC's shit doesn't stink. I would love to be proven wrong about them delaying, as I have a couple orders with them. I just don't see them making a September shipping deadline.

I consider all of the new companies that have not shown a working ASIC prototype vaporware until proven otherwise. So, they can write a press release... that doesn't mean that they will deliver their product on time or to specifications. Anyone can write and release a press release, not anyone can make a Bitcoin ASIC. (See:bASIC)

Furthermore, the problems of BFL/Avalon/bASIC highlight just how difficult it is to design, develop, and mass manufacture your own Bitcoin ASIC. It is not an easy task, and I'm afraid several of the new companies have set timelines that they cannot deliver on.

Pics or youtube video of it hashing, or it's vaporware, and you're pissing money into the wind.

As far as I'm concerned, at least KnC hosted a meet and greet and demoed stuff.

BFL....and Avalon.....? riiiiight.... ::)

As for the rest, time will tell.

OP doesnt even know what the hell hes talking about. DO YOUR RESEARCH.

Since the OP was looking for a winner (or opinions about it), for me KNC is the winner, the reason my money went to them. Being in the end of the October delivery queue, I'm not very sure I'll mine back all invested bitcoins (VAT was a killer btw, I hate EU for it), but I'm willing to take the risk and I strongly believe KNC was my best option to put my money into mining gear when I decided to do so (27 Aug 1st order).

Suggest you go pig shit and plant fiber biodigestor and use methane to produce power. Get your farms to a farm.

Maybe BFL_Jody will host your rigs for you. :)

Op with the subtle VMC pump...  ::)

Why are you sure you will mine back your bitcoins ?

It is very unlikely to happen, sorry bro...

Please add us to the list: http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/black-arrow-announces-28nm-64ghash-bitcoin-asic-from-1.99-ghash.html

As I said, I'm not very optimistic about that, but I'll take that risk (instead of a refund). I do believe we are witnessing the last days of "pre-order" madness. People still use those calculators starting from (almost) extremely low difficulty value. The perspective will radically change once you start your calculations with 600MM or even one billion difficulty, which is very likely at the end of Nov. So I'm basing my calculations on a "slower" (percentage wise) raise in difficulty after Nov. No more "today you'd make $xxxx per day using our hardware" advertising, less people interested in investing into mining gear that won't pay for itself within "2 weeks".
And back to the topic, KNC is still at the front on the race to deliver a working 28nm ASIC chip. Should be any day this week!

+1

They're the same exact thing shipping, just with reduced prices, also the Sept-October batch has been around much longer starting from April.
As an OP, please do your due diligence before starting a thread to avoid misinforming anyone coming in.

Here, research material:
https://www.kncminer.com/news?page=0

Also what's with the negative trust and red warnings?

Coinhoarder I know product design, I know engineering, and I know how to raise funding. Please pick a hole in the analytical content I gave and not tr to make assumption as to my intentions, which ai might add are sincere. I have made the right choice on this forum multiple times, and there is one significant area every manufacturer bar KnC has overlooked. I will stay quiet on that point until Cointerra deliver, but with respect to the above, am I wrong?

This is a crucial week for KnC, make no mistake, but they had the drop, the most well thought out and sensible one on all their competitors. If Hashfast had been planning their ASIC as they claim from 2011, then why on earth would they allow KnC to walk in and tie up all funding three months earlier?! Why not state your intention right then, and show your proof of conceptual design of you have it to hand, generate interest and prevent your legitimate competitor from beating you to the punch? Because like everything Hashfast has claimed has been dishonest. They left it too late, they know it, so they are lying and begging to secure funds with unrealistic delivery dates and chip specifications, alongside marketing gimmicks, and 'flash 3-day sales'. No real payment security, no accountability. Read their terms of sale, and you will gain a picture of their true lack of integrity.

Cointerra has been more realistic with delivery timeframe, but they have not raised NRE costs, that part is painfully obvious by their erratic behaviour. They could prob do good, but unlike Hashfast they weren't prepared to bend truths, and bear in mind whether the '20-30th October' has become 'anticipated 20-30th October' (after securing funding), and they have changed their 'terms of sale' to remove all accountability and consumer protection (4-5 times a week ago alone - still waiting for someone to point out the huge removal of customer rights there). There is no way in hell TSMC agreed to the 20-30th October even with a super hyper mega rocket run, and those guys do not bend for anyone. If called to by court TSMC would tell the truth. Hashfast will be at least 2 weeks late. Minimum. They won't receive their chips till at least Nov. Their terms suggest possibly even more, then 90 days later, you get ditched with chips you are expected to assemble yourself, with expensive components required to house the chips and have them hashing.  Again they have just removed pricing they were encouraging purchases by claiming a hashrate pricing per Gh of approx $2.60 (I forget precisely - as I said it's yet another removal made after sale has taken place). That price included the chips from the Miner Protection, fine, but it didn't include the additional costs required to purchased the board and necessary components within that price per Gh. Purposeful advertising claims with the intent to mislead and coerce sales, by fraudulently appearing a better deal than their competitors, and you doubt my analysis of competing companies and calling out foul play as shilling? It's logic dude. Marketing magic, by misdirection involves you stay alert and focus on both hands, not just the one handling the cards. ;)

I'm happy to be proven wrong, for those unfortunate enough to have funds tied up there, I hope I am. I'm man enough to openly apologise of proven otherwise, but I'm not stupid, and frankly I find it insulting how some these companies assumed we all are, let alone set up a business and expect us to fund it's entire existence and their lifestyles so they can have their own free paid for hashrate on tap.