Bitcoin Forum

Re: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294197.0

I'll just leave this here:


Enjoy.

That's some quality photoshopping BlackArrow did there. Good Job ;D

Nice, I had many posts deleted from that thread, gave up!

I am not seeing this render anywhere on their site...
http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/prospero-x-1.html

Wow, that actually is some good editing.


Maybe not try to scam, and get a job doing editing?

It was there. Probably they've taken the image down for obvious reasons.

Because it was a render? No where did they state that was the final product. Says that right on the order form.

anyone who rips off another site's image is likely unethical already if not a scammer.

besides the fact that any mining machine that is not much bigger than a PC mouse is going to be 'too small' to be profitable with all the casing, lcd, etc.

Haven't you ever hired someone to do images or a website only to find later that they ripped off the images / the site ?

-MarkM-

I'm sure that's what happened. Also has anyone heard of pirateat40 lately? I think he might have forgotten to pay out dividends for a while. I sure hope he's okay.

There's a huge difference between e.g. the generic fotos of computers that CoinTerra uses on their website compared to a full-fledged photoshopped image of what appears to be your final product, given the context.

MOAR renders! Today i was considering Black Arrow, but this just made stop considering them for obvious reasons.

I love a witchhunt as much as the next guy, but blackarrow already responded to this issue, and removed the images...

Source (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294197.msg3219044#msg3219044)


Personally, I bought one of their units, just to see how it plays out.  After chastising them for emailing me my account password in plaintext, of course ... (they fixed that immediately after I brought it up, so props there).

Real engineers or even good managers must know already that design doesn't matter in bitcoin mining so asking someone to make some pretty renders of possible boxes tells me that you are focusing on the wrong stuff. Designers know shit about cooling and airflow and other stuff. They should be sourcing parts and workforce and other stuff not make useless renders and also saying that you can't have a still photo of a case that is supposed to be already present long before chips arrive makes me wonder how can they manage a proper assembly chain. Their chips might be legitimate, but everything else is way wrong.

You make a good and interesting point, though it's not related to the original topic of this thread.

Anyway, I agree, the amount of time/effort a company spends on marketing a pre-order product could potentially be used as an indicator of the company's technical capabilities.  In this case, I would argue that blackarrow probably already had an established marketing team as part of their company prior to their ASIC announcement.  Since they're on payroll, might as well use them.

For me personally, I find a company's history to be a better indicator of their merits than anything else.  Like a person, you should always bet on a company not changing their habits.  That isn't to say that they can't change, but more times than not they will repeat their mistakes.  BFL is a prime example.  It seems a lot of people forgot that they pulled their same shenanigans back with their original FPGA based product.

From what I know of Blackarrow, their customer service has been stellar, but I recall them tripping on a few early delivery schedules with their Icarus clones (IIRC their FPGA supplier fell through).  Their habits likely won't change, which is to say that I believe they will deliver (as you seem to agree), but may still run into trouble during their early shipping (as do most companies, to be honest).

I'm not an illustrater, but i do remember reading somewhere that if you modify a certain percentage of an image, it isn't a rip off, it is fair use. Many illustraters start with an existing image and modify it to fit their purpose. I see nothing wrong with this. You people are crazy. :o

all they did was change the name, add an led, and add an lcd. thats not a major modification, its a blantant ripoff and unlike what will be made.

show of hands, who expects the final product to be roughly 12x12x8cm like they displayed for weeks (months) on the site?

Serious what it looks like is the least of my concerns. I spend all my time looking at stats not the fucking box

1. Reliable
2. low power usage
3. Price right
4. Shipped on time as scheduled
5. low noise
6. -------
7.--------
8.--------
9.--------
10. Looks

The image was used for press releases: http://onbitcoin.com/2013/09/23/black-arrow-offers-pre-orders-for-new-bitcoin-mining-hardware/

http://d1uiva7rkkyvvt.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/20130923-Black-Arrow-Bitcoin-Mining-Prospero-X1.jpg

http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/about-us-en.html


http://www.infinity-miner.com/about.html

Why are you quoting the Infinity, Inc. scam?

For the same reason I'm offering up this other tidbit: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Card-Reader-Factory/internet/Card-Reader-Factory-cardreaderfactory-cardreaderfactorycom-crs-known-scam-and-snitch-I-1070440

nice detective work

I'll take the credit for finding the above, but it has been addressed before on this forum, but I wasn't aware of it prior.

I ask, because it looks to me like Infinity's facebook, and domain, was created months after the quoted statement began appearing on blackarrow's website.  Not to mention that Infinity's miner looks a lot like KNC's Mars prototype ...

Point being, someone duplicating blackarrow's copy is not an indication of blackarrow's reputation.

Your other tidbit, however, is unsettling...

Meh...

more concerned with getting some chips and making our own miner. As long as the performance numbers match and the chip specs are released then not sure I care what they think the box will look like. If they dealt with the "plagiarism" then fine.

Good to see Phinnaeus Gage is still on the job :D

Something just doesn't smell right. Perhaps this will help: http://parfumcenter.hu/ Bonus points awarded if you can connect it Black Arrow.

Lawdy, you never ran into DMCA, the new & improved copyright law, have you?  It's brutal.  What truly should be fair use, works so transformative there's nothing left of original besides the copyright, or silly fan art by 5-yr-olds -- even those run afoul of "fair use."  RIAA doesn't even except the fact that fair use exists /rant.

So no, that's not fair use.  That's theft.

Isn't blackarrow a proven vendor/manufacturer of Icarus boards?  IIRC the Sovu accusations were brought up before they delivered miners to many paying customers?

Aren't they making some boards for Nov 1 delivery of a Bitfury group buy?


I don't want to be the guy standing between the angry mob and the accused, but this is a total toss up...

They delivered FPGAs on-time in the face of scam accusations.  They're supplying (assembling?) some Bitfury boards in the very near future.  

Besides some conveniently questionable photoshop work, an associate with a sketchy past, and a ripoff report which basically links back to bitcointalk...

They seem to have done what they said they were going to thus far in the BTC realm.  No slack for previous history?

They are assembling approx. 125 bitfury boards, of witch already have assembled PCB's (and pics) and confirmed recipt of my ASICs go go on them.

Black Arrow just announced an American reseller. Does that change anything re their credibility?

http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/usa-reseller.html

http://minersource.net/

tldr

who cares if they used another persons design

they are selling a product at reasonably low prices due in feb...if they wanted to scam they would "deliver" sooner...not to mention they have a track record of delivering and manufacturing bitcoin products

Well I have no issues if they use an OEM case. Saves time and $ on design and they can work on fitting their asic design into a ready-made case.

I would be that reseller sir :)

We've already conducted several transactions with Black Arrow and in good faith they've followed through every time. They have BRILLIANT engineers that work on the efficiency angle of mining as well as a key factor for mining hardware sales, fast FAST shipping. We adopted this principle when we offered free EXPRESS shipping on orders of just 2 or more. We will upload videos of our fully functional boards as solid evidence of their good faith efforts.

Super - sorry to put you in an awkward spot in this thread, but bolster our confidence more, if you will or point me to a separate thread if appropriate - the Black Arrow thread has been quiet of late.

Thanks!

I have been trying to do so- They personally put a significant amount of money and trust in me, and in return they are assembling over 200 16 Chip bitfury boards using their own in house design. I already have pictures of the finished un-mounted PCBs, and should have pictures of the mounted PCBs here soon.

Thanks - I'll watch with interest.

Hi

short question is Black Arrow scam yes or no ? ( any proofs ? )

no, they delivered fpgas month ago

They're resellers, I bought stuff from him but I think their mining gear is not that real ...

And I have a warehouse full of their bitfury 16 chip boards.

pics =

Go look all over the GB forum, their FS thread, and their website. Plenty of proof. Has their name on it.

I have a stack of their Lancelot clones mining beside me on my desk.

I am in one of the DZ Black Arrow group buys and it is real and hashing now.

He's a little tied up right now..  :P

"Washington D.C., July 23, 2013 — The Securities and Exchange Commission today charged a Texas man and his company with defrauding investors in a Ponzi scheme involving Bitcoin"

http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583#.Un-nYiejN3U


I can confirm that I saw that image on their site too.
The minion chip image is fake too you can see the Photoshop feathering on the right edge over the circuit board print.

The fact they won't take Credit Card, Paypal, or Escrow doesn't fill me with confidence either.


It was a different web site address back then, if I recall correctly, are these the same people? And they really only resold other peoples stuff, rather than making their own ASIC chip, which is going to be much harder.

They list their address as:
 801, Building 2, Huangduguangchang, Yitian Road, Futian District, Shenzhen, Guangdong, P. R. China, Postcode: 518048
but the domain registra lists the owner as:
 Yi Tian Black Arrow LTD 90 jaffe road wanchai hong kong

When I look the last address up it's says Henan Building and they seem to rent office space.

Um what part of their ASIC is a preorder and not actually done yet did you have trouble understanding.
They did take CC and Paypal... but both them and I have been dropped by both. BFL really ruined things for us. Their 'shop is no different than CT or HF or even KnC before they delivered.

Yes, they have offices in China, HK and the UK. They are the same people.

Yeah... weird thread.  I mean, we've got like 3Thz hashing over in the DZ group buy with pics and everything, so... there's that.

If you think the Black Arrow one was bad... how about BFL Monarch render and recently them lifting a picture from Rice University for their hosting?! http://www.pgal.com/portfolio/rice-university-data-center-2/  vs.  http://www.butterflylabs.com/landing/slanding.php (http://www.butterflylabs.com/landing/slanding.php)

If you think the Black Arrow one was bad... how about BFL Monarch render and recently them lifting a picture from Rice University for their hosting?! http://www.pgal.com/portfolio/rice-university-data-center-2/  vs.  http://www.butterflylabs.com/landing/slanding.php (http://www.butterflylabs.com/landing/slanding.php)

LOL awesome   ;D

Yeah similar to BFL and it took them a year to get the bugs worked out of their own custom ASIC!
Ask those who pre-ordered Jalapeños how that worked out for them.  ::)


That also reminds me of the bASIC pre-orders, whatever happened to BTCFPGA.com? ;)

Both these two made their own FPGAs and failed at ASICs.


Despite what they say about not being able to accept PayPal/Credit Cards for Bitcoin orders both KnCminer.com and technobit.eu manage to do it, probably because they can deliver within the 45 days refund window and not funding product development with customer money.

If you're new around here just be aware putting money into pre-orders can be damaging to your wealth!  :D

No one can really be equated to BFL other than Avalon I think at this point.

BFL are the 'REFUND DENIERS'.

-----------

Black Arrow? Well they do have a number of projects completed and shipped.
Do they have paypal and CC? Nope and that is a concern and if you have been burned by BFL and AVALON no sense getting burned potentially a 3rd time.

Does Black Arrow offer escrow in BTC? Maybe that is one angle you can work on and approach them with. I am not sure that they are trying to make CC and PayPal a reality or not or if their situation is such that would be easier or harder than say KnC had with their ability to provide CC and Paypal. However looking at what BFL did there are 0 guarantees even with CC and Paypal seeing as how BFL fights every refund request.

From what I can tell they have the engineers they can build an ASIC and whether or not they reach the finish line is a bet you have to take based on what you can learn from the specs they will post or have posted on the chips.

Any engineer worth their salt will be able to tell you if what they have designed is doable or where they might have huge issues. That could be a really good indicator for many on whether or not I would invest.

Again with any of this don't put in more than you are willing to lose.

Nope, they already said they consider escrow a sale, not an investment.
They need to raise $millions probably to go into production, all payments are one way only.


No public tape-out so no engineer can tell you if it's a viable project.


Yep, newbies should not confuse what's offered as an item for sale, at this point it is purely a speculative investment.

Reads to me like Matt Carson was in bed with Alex Sovu/Alex Berk from the get-go.

Matt, do you care to be the first one to tell fellow bitcoiners how you walked away from your lease in Rolla, MO, that was hosting bitcoin miners for others, or should I? Don't forget to include the part where you strung the poor sap (owner of the building) along after only paying the first month's lease payment.

While you're at it, state why you did the same thing to the poor sap who leased you 2057 Vienna Rd, Rolla, MO, after living there for only a couple months.

Matt, feel free to negate any of the above, but make sure you first move your datacenter again there in Denver, for I just about have that location nailed down, otherwise investomers will know of your location when they start demanding refunds in droves. Not that that's a bad thing, with the exception that their money is already up in smoke (PUN INTENDED!).

In case you missed it, Matt: Game On! And you're behind.

~Bruno Kucinskas

Seriously, are you not content in spamming your stuff in THREE threads that you now have to bump a 3 month old one?

Dude, I'm not spamming. I'm spreading gospel. Big difference, aint' that right, Reverend Jim?

I suggest opening a window so that you'll be able to see better, Number One Fanboi.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGi30tTJY-2fUnajhrpsSE_cORU7DxY9Vq4uJB-_eOv-WMc6C0Sw

lol :P

I wonder why PG is unwilling to talk with Matt on TeamSpeak or Gtalk to resolve the questions he has?

I suppose it is more fun to assassinate people's character without trying to give them a chance to resolve the issue in a peaceable manner.  It is about ego more than anything at this point and little to do with being informative to the community, given that Matt has reached out to you PG. I find that telling. You were more than willing to give Inaba / Josh Zerlan time and traveled to KC and ate with the guy but Matt you rebuff? Wow. Sad. The IGNORE was the right move it is clear this isn't about edification.

WOW! I'm seriously speechless after reading this from you, Darin.

FYI .. bobsag3 is ---> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=10897

http://gdb.voanews.com/7499EC39-D3C0-4FF6-81B4-9B0425998F44_w640_s.jpg

PG furiously stirring the pot. Shall I carve you a bigger paddle?

Says Darin, of whom I came to his rescue when he and Josh of BFL got into it over a very sensitive issue. BTW, he never thanked me, of which I could could care less in that regard, but now he somehow feels he needs to stick it up my ass over the Black Arrow issue, among others, notwithstanding a person I've personally donated money to support his noble cause, along with encouraging others to send him thousands of dollars because I vetted him.

It's a motherfuckin' shame that all I do to support the community, along with bringing further awareness to Bitcoin on my dime, the people I previously had no qualms with opt to stick it up my ass.

I truly am sad right. Very sad. But, I hate no one.

Thank you.

~Bruno Kucinskas

that image has neither appeared on their website or facebook fan page

Keep up your chin Phinn,we need folks to be aware,you MAY just find that "needle" yet  ;)

BTW Phin,you want recognition ???  Find the 850,000 BTC MT Gox "lost"  :D  YOU will be a Super Hero baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   8) 8)

I'll buy a cape & suit made to fit ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ;D

Interesting.


Very interesting.


As the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour, I think the bitcoin community is fortunate to have the likes of PG contributing to the public domain.

Don't be disheartened, as bobsag3 is associated with Bicknellski's Wasp Project, you probably ruffled a few feathers.

Get out of jail free card? I guess this is why the fuzz isn't returning my calls.

How did I miss this thread OMGWTFBBQ.

I'm guessing X-3s are on the same boat as AMT's miners from China.

I'm expecting a head-on collision with the BFL ghost ship on it's way to China.

I take it you've seen the compass both ships are using then?

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4QJqSZcKIn-fnwn303otZKwsj7xcRYKyuI9R-92626RxSY70Dxg

Hi,
I want to hire some lawyers so I can get my miney back, me and maybe many other persons who made that preorder.

Should I get a lawyer in China or Hong Kong ?