Bitcoin Forum

I have a soapbox topic for today.

It's always bugged me that cryptocurrency miners have thrown around the term "ROI" (Return On Investment) as a euphemism for getting their initial capital investments in hardware purchases.  The correct term is "CR" or Capital Recovery.

When you see someone posting that they "got their ROI", or the "ROI on that GPU is 3 months", or "I've already ROIed so I'm hodling"... it makes them sound dumb.  I realize that using ROI as a stand-in for CR is probably just miner slang now, but in my opinion, words matter.  When you consider this is a forum where written words are the primary means of communicating ideas, then words matter.

Why is ROI an incorrect term?  It's incorrect because ROI is a simple mathematical formula to quantify the ratio or percentage of gains or losses based upon your capital outlay or investment.  You could have a negative ROI, but you don't really see anyone using that with the slang version of ROI used here.  They treat "ROI" as an absolute number, when the terms they really should be using are "CR" or Capital Recovery.


A simple example of ROI is this:  Miner A purchases a GPU for $1000, and over some period of time, that GPU mines $1000 worth of cryptocurrency.  Miner A did not "achieve" ROI... because the ROI is ZERO!  What did Miner A "achieve"?  They achieved a 100% "CR" or Capital Recovery.

Now, let's look at Miner B.  Miner B purchases a GPU for $1000, and over that same period of time, that GPU mines $1200 worth of cryptocurrency.  Miner B also did not "achieve" ROI.  The ROI is simply 20%.  Their "CR" or Capital Recovery is still 100%.  Both Miner A and B have "achieved" their CR, but their ROI is different.

Finally, let's look at Miner C.  Miner C purchases a GPU for $1000, and over that same period of time, that GPU mines $800 worth of cryptocurrency.  Miner C has an ROI of negative 20% (-20%), but their "CR" or Capital Recovery is still pretty good at 80%.


The above is a very simple comparison on why calculating "ROI" is not the same as CR.  There are actually several other factors to calculating ROI.  Time plays an important factor into calculating ROI, so it's never an apples-to-apples comparison unless all the same factors are considered.  In the case of physical capital like mining hardware, you also have to factor in your potential resale value if you choose to exit mining at that point in time.  It's rare to see anyone using ROI correctly, and it really has no meaning without all the proper context like time, resale value, and current coin pricing versus future coin pricing... so stop.



;TLDR
Simply put... stop using "ROI" when you mean "CR", as it makes you sound dumb.

THANK YOU FOR THIS!!!  Glad I'm not the only one that it bugs the hell out of.

No, trying to be an internet professor is dumb.

http://s23.postimg.org/4pdzjhrhn/bullshit_Degree.jpg



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1991180.0

I'll continue to use ROI

Man, why this little thing botters you?
This term ROI is used a lot and will not change...

Completely agree, puwaha. ROI is the wrong acronym.

Capital recovery is correct. One could also use "time to break even".

Thank you for educating the masses! :D

I love Willy Wonka... but dismissing it as not important makes you ignorant.

And it's your free-speech right to look dumb when you do.  I hope you don't take offense to my characterization.


In my diatribe, I mention that I realize that ROI has become "miner slang" now... but it's still wrong.  We have hundreds of new miners show up every day, and we are teaching them the incorrect terminology.

Maybe you can get together with your anally retentive 'Capital Recovery' pal for afternoon tea and cake to dscuss how ignorant we are. As if it matters or anybody cares, LOL.

Thanks for the suggestion.  In fact tea does sound good right now. 

If you don't care to sound ignorant, then that's your prerogative.  I think people other than yourself do care though.

So, Capital Recovery limited to 100%. Means, when money-out equal to money-in it's called Capital Recovery. When money-in didn't reach 100% of money-out both term can use, Capital Recovery if we count from below (0%) and ROI if we count from above (100%), but this ROI still minus. But, if money-in more than money-out, we only can call it ROI, right?

But whatever it is, as long as we can understand each other, it is no big deal. Honestly, this is helpful.  ;)

While you're at it, you can discuss the other idioms and vernacular applied in a colloquial setting. YAY!

You can achieve a greater than 100% CR.  My examples were to illustrate that you can have a negative ROI.  What I didn't give an example on, is that it's impossible to have a negative CR.  Obviously, the goal of many people is to achieve a minimum of 100% CR.  What I take offense on is people claiming they need 100% ROI to break even... when that would actually doubling their money.  What they meant was they are trying to achieve a ZERO ROI... which is dumb... it even sounds dumb when you say it out loud.

I used ROI many times ... So call me dumb. Don't care.
ROI ROI ROI ROI ROI.

I don't think that educating yourself on the words you choose to use is a fruitless endeavor.  Slang has it's uses, but maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.

+25 merit. Love the attitude. :)

If I had any merit to give away anymore I would do the same, just for putting that song from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory called "Pure Imagination" running though my head.

Thanks Vann!

Approved.
Someone give this man a cookie.  He is President of the Forum for the day.

See how ROI can make you smile there?  :)


Anyway, putting aside the playfulness.. Kinda weird that you get fed up by people using the wrong terms/words for something.
If I were to react like that to every mistake/error I see IRL or online.. It would make me sour in the end.

Whats next, are you going to tell HODLers they are spelling HOLD wrong?  Get the hell off the internet if you can't handle the stupid shit here in.

Anything has got to be better than all the doom and gloom threads about Cryptonite ASICs, low mining profits, and where do I begin questions.

+ 5 merit for you


I had a college exam today. I think I failed it. This topic is making me smile again.

you did a good job in explaining the differences between CR and ROI, maybe you should have stopped there.

However, you call people dumb and ignorant for using ROI in place of CR (which is just slang), and then you use "hodling" which is just slang for holding.

so your slang doesn't make you sound dumb but others using slang makes them sound dumb?

Maybe.. it is time to get off your soap box..

Personally, I like what you write above, educative.
A bit thing that bothers me only the title, it's too provocative and rough I think. Probably the title should be softer.  ;)

It goes beyond just people using the wrong terms, I think.  Words and concepts change over time, but that makes it harder to communicate with each other if we allow people to just do it wrong on purpose and not care.  It's probably too late to just be the little boy sticking his finger in the dyke over the meaning of "ROI"... but it still has to be done.  It's the same kind of attitude I see online or IRL where people are apathetic and non-principled.  Don't get me started on emojis... like I said above in another reply... I may just be getting old and cranky.

I don't think anyone is dumb, because they never knew the difference.  There was a time when I didn't know the difference.  

There's a difference between slang or memes used for levity versus using a well-defined term like ROI in the wrong context.  And, no thank you, I'll stay right here on the internet because stupid shit exists here and we are free to talk about it.

Whenever someone is saying ROI, you do know what they actually mean, right? Just let it be...

Maybe you didn't notice those little things called quotation marks around the phrase where I mentioned "hodling"... those are meant to be other people's words... not mine.

True... I knew it was "wrong", and yet I kept (and still will be) using it.

Of course everyone knows what they mean.  I just don't like getting into the habit of sounding like I don't know what I'm talking about, especially if I'm in front of people that I may hope to do business with in the future. 

It was meant to be provocative to illicit response, yes.  Look at the responses I've gotten so far.  People are just as bitter as me.  It's ok though, while my soapbox rant is correct, I know people have their own opinions.  I hope I brought a little fun back to this forum today.

I may know what they were trying to convey... but do they know?

If you are so superficial that you won't do business with people because they -accidently or purposefully- use wrong words.... You might lose more than you gain. So superficial.

Accepted terms != correct terms

I never said I was.  Lol.  Basically I care whether or not I sound like I know what I'm talking about.

If I give someone a job interview and they don't know the terminology or meaning of the words they are saying, then they are not going to get the job.

You made BitBustah back to smile after failed in an exam today, you did good.  ;D

Well its a good thing you don't handle job interviews and you are stuck on these forums trying to correct wrongs that can't be corrected.

Job interview > Real life > Needed for income (as in "money to pay for food, shelter, electricity, family, ...") > VERY IMPORTANT for most of us..

Bitcoin Forum > Online life > Just for fun > Most of us can still have a decent life without it.. :)


You guys know what I mean.

Another +5 merit. You are on fire today. :)

Lol ;D

damn  he really did this.

maybe it was a joke  or tongue in cheek.

We can all agree with that.  And personally, I don't care what anyone else does.  I just don't feel the need to improperly use terminology on purpose for no reason at all ... Lol.

As long as you treat as an investment then will always be a return of investment. I do not treat mining as an investment, I treat as dumbestment hehe cause buying and sell coins gives you many times more money.

Yes yes, we've all heard your opinion of mining over and over and over and over again ... Lol.

I never thought about how to speak correctly, and it didn't bother me. now, when I say it wrong, I'll know about it. ;)

Damn, just got my popcorn ripe.
Where are the people? So, this is the end of this series? Thanks everyone, you all very cheer up this day.  ::)

No, it's a good thing that I actually do handle job interviews at my day job.  I weed out the people who don't know what they are talking about.  I only want to hire the best.

Do you have any math that backs this up?  I'm not talking about individual coin picks, or miners who picked the right coin, but across the board.  If there was an index fund for buying cryptocurrency, would this be true over the thousands of coins out there versus a miner who picks the safe, easy, and "profitable" coins?

I'm saddened by this fact.  Don't power trip so much and let people make mistakes.  You might just be surprised what kind of people you missed out on because your got a huge stick up your ass.

I can't believe how negative some of the comments are.  That was the first thing I asked myself when I started mining was why everyone was using the term ROI to break even.  Although it's so widespread I don't think it will ever change.  I have even had to use the term ROI incorrectly talking to people who were mining as they didn't understand when I tried to explain recouping your money invested is not ROI.  While the trolling is strong in this thread the intent behind using the correct terminology is a good thing and can help legitimize cryptocurrency more when you talk about in public using terms that most people in investing or business know very well.  Using terms incorrectly just for the sake of wanted to doesnt help in the long run. 

I'll allow it... considering your handle has to do with "poop."

This has always been my take on it.  I'm sure I've used ROI before, but was never comfortable with it.  But that's how it starts... when you become apathetic about it then you are being unprincipled and are compromising your values.  The next thing you know you are saying things like "yes", when you meant "no."

well explained OP, i know what both means but :

ROI sounds much nicer than CR ;)

someone did mention that most of us knows when a miner/investor in the crypto world mention the magical 3 letter ROI.

just saying . . .

Must be a slow day. The way ROI is being used is to demark the point when the investment is paid and
the product starts earning a Return On the Investment. Is the distinction really big enough to deserve a rant?

How about people who "could care less" instead of "couldn't care less? It only takes a subtle grasp of
the english language to figure that one out but so many get it wrong.

Or how about people who think "myself" is synonymous with "me"?

Misusing ROI just doesn't rate.

I think so.  It's akin to when people point to a monitor and call it the "computer."  Then when they are corrected saying "you know what I meant."



It's not quite the same.  Grammatical errors are one thing, but using a term that doesn't mean what they think it means, and then "could care less" is symbolic of dumb.  Some people are just ignorant about what ROI and CR are and think they are equivalent, that can be forgiven.

Using words in a way that most people understand them is dumb huh? You must have so many friends.

Yes.  Especially if you know better.


If you are happy being educated about a word or a phrase, but think you have to use it incorrectly to "fit in"... then be my guest... take all the friends.  Just know that some of them are snickering behind your back because you say dumb things.  They still like you, it's just that pickleburgler says dumb things on purpose sometimes.


Another one that really gets me going... in the past few years in America, people have gotten into a habit of saying "literally" when it doesn't apply, as a way to bring emphasis.  You can't "literally shoot a basketball".

I'm not sure why everyone is aruging with you, but it's comical.  Lol ... Especially those who know the difference and still use it incorrectly.

There are all kinds of meds at "your" disposal to treat "your" anxiety, OCD and anal rententiveness.  Come out of the cave and smell the air while watching the butterflies flying around that huge chip on "your" shoulder that helps hold up that big fat head of "yours".  If you want to be an english teacher....goto high school and have at it.  In public, evetually someone will be bigger than you and beat hell out of you right in front of your old lady.  Its your choice as to whether and how much exactly you embarrass yourself.  Welcome to the real world...Life...Its a bitch.

Being as "SMART" as you are, im sure you know that languages evolve and adapts where ever it is used. If everyone knows what you mean when you say something, and is agreeing to it, then it means what they say it means. Stop being a smartass.

Reminds me of when people ask what caliber of gun I am shooting.  Well its a .30 caliber but I know what they mean and say .300 win mag or whatever.  It is not worth my effort to explain and it really does not matter as far as I can tell. 

I am actually a professional statistician, and I appreciate these points.

It's funny to see people get so defensive when they know they are wrong.

I mentioned this a few posts ago, and acknowledged that words change meaning over time.

How about the word "decimate"?  It really means to kill one person out of 10... but when you say it, you probably think it means to kill everyone?  The word has lost it's original meaning, and for what?  We already have words that describe killing everyone.

As I mentioned in another reply earlier in this thread, the agreed meaning does not mean correct meaning.


Let's get real here.  You guys are arguing that a well understood financial idea called "return on investment" doesn't mean what it actually means, because we are either too lazy to use the correct terms, or are just ignorant of the difference.  You suggest that it means something completely different and are ok with that.  Is that it?

It's a good analogy, and many times we let things slide... but that's because they are ignorant of the difference.  Many posters here are saying they know the difference between ROI and CR but don't care to use the correct term.  That would be the equivalent of me saying that the .45 caliber GAP round and the .45 caliber ACP are the same thing... when they are not... then saying it doesn't matter because people know what I mean.

That's why I hate terminology.
People may know what they are talking about but most of the time, they're using the wrong term.
Now thanks to this thread, next time they might start using the correct term.

Nothing else to read in this tread aside from the OP (but I already read all four pages), and this thread needs to be pinned ;D
You said so, edit the title to: "Please stop using "ROI" when you mean Capital Recovery."

Thanks.

This topic should not be under Bitcoin Forum > Alternate cryptocurrencies > Mining (Altcoins)
This is another useless topic in this section....
Maybe somewhere :  Bitcoin Forum > Other > Serious discussion
This is a kind of Serious discussion for a real smart members,
(most of us give a sht about it ... to be honest ... )

I hope no one going to post another topic tomorrow,  like : "Please stop using "MINING" when you mean the process of adding transaction records to Bitcoin's public ledger of past transactions and trying to solve a computationally difficult puzzle.... it makes you sound dumb.  ;D
 
or

I hope no one going to post another topic tomorrow,  like : "Please stop using "MINING RIG" when you talking about a single computer system that performs the necessary computations for the process of adding transaction records to Bitcoin's public ledger of past transactions and trying to solve a computationally difficult puzzle .... it makes you sound dumb also  ;D

Come on people ... please give some real help for your newbie friends ....

 ;)

Social anxiety or in your case full blown paranoia isn't healthy you know... live long enough and you'll realize trivial bullshit like that isn't worth your time.

God, I want to say "ROI" but I don't want to be called dumb. I must say "CR". but when I said "CR" it isn't happy for me, I want to say ROI ROI ROI
God, please forgive me

Or you could just sell me your gpu's cheap and you won't have to worry about it.

This thread is hilarious. You read the first post where OP is educating people on financial terms... then you jump to page 4 and people are suggesting meds to treat medical conditions lol. The internet in a nutshell.

Lol ... I don't know another place I could go and have this much fun  ;D

Where you located? Might want to sell my GPUs..

Its REAL funny watching someone get the hell beat out of them when "you" know they deserved every bit of it.  Behind a keyboard "you" are safe.  Outside in the real world, good luck with all that.

People dont say in these forums that they made 100% of ROI. They just say they made ROI. These are different and mean different things , true. Who is going to bother and say i made a 0% ROI but, or i made CR. Youd just confuse traders as CR to them means cash raise, you shouldnt use the same acronym for multiple definitions in the internet, even if it is more accurate.  Its just easier to say i made ROI.

So, you are saying that people might want to beat me up because I suggested they might be using the wrong terminology?  What kind of insecure people do you hang around?

I certainly understand what people mean when they say they "made ROI"... but it makes no sense.  You made what ROI?  It's a ratio, a mathematical formula.  It would be the same as if I said, "Hey, yesterday I made my batting average!"  You'd look at me a little funny and say, "What in the hell are you talking about?  A batting average is a number, not a target!"

ROI or made ROI, means that you invested capital to gain a way of making future capital to a miner.

When the machine and parts pay for themself and their running costs, the ROI has been fulfilled.

Everything after that is profit if you sell for a profit, or loss, if you sell for a loss.

Do you want everyone to dance to your music ???

ROI is valid and understandable. Using it does not make you look silly, it makes you stand proud and wise in front of others, impose your criteria and if you have to call fools to others you do it.

After studying marketing, ROI is the return on investment, I have invested 100 and I have recovered 100. That you prefer the other version, it seems more foolish to me to use the other acronym, because you want to go through life giving lessons, when nobody asks for them.

I see that your attitude is "I know more than anyone else and I have to prove it", I stopped to read all your posts and you are a person that you will discuss a lot here if you do not adapt and you are less strict with your nonsense.

If life is going badly for you, if you are a bit bitter, do yourself a favor and do not make others bitter, turn off the internet and make your neighbors bitter.

Seeing the controversy that you have in all the posts you post, I'll ignore you and not answer more to your messages in the forum of Awesome miner, you have no idea and allows you to give advice. You are smart in your house, but a fool in the rest of the world.

With the ignorant it is stupid to argue, especially about the ignorant who want to give lessons. And I call you ignorant morally.

Tell me how you really feel trucobit.  LOL.

I recognize that English may not be your first language, so you may not pick up on the subtleties of what Americans call "snark."  This thread was meant to be a fun distraction. 

Is this still going on? :D

I'm surprised for the bump

 :D

its more than a year, time flies so fast

Yeah, time goes so fast.

I still remember while BitBustah in a bad mood after college exams. How's the result, by the way?  :D

Passed all 6 of them. :D



Anyway, let's just forgive everyone who says ROI but means CR. Ok?

Congrats bud!


Im into it, as long I understand what you're talking about, were done..  :D

YAY
So this thread to be your stress release.  :D


I'm also using ROI (so forgive me).  :'(
To be honest, This thread gave me some other view that I've never cared about, before. I like this. (at least, now I know when I need to use ROI or CR)

On this forum, may I'll still use ROI since almost everyone here use it and know what it means.
As Leonix said, as long as we understand each other, that's enough.  ;)

Well, seems trucobit has a beef with me from another thread, so he stalked some of my other threads to give me a good bashing.  It's all good though.  I can take the heat.  I knew when I started this thread that it would generate some controversy.

Well, true about a rough attitude, but you can’t compare a slang HODL and a wrongly used financial term, though. Not the same and not even close.

If this post makes at least 5% of readers remember that, I think that is a success!!!

And wow, so many aggressive replies..

I think someone back in 2013, called breaking even with your hardware cost ROI and it just stuck since then.

Since nobody else really uses the term ROI except accountants which leads me to believe it was a spiral or domino effect.

Basically someone wanted to learn how to mine, found this forum, a few people said " you will never ROI" and it was a term they took over and where we are today.

Let us not start this discussion again. Let it go folks.

https://beat.10ztalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/social-media-why-cant-we-all-just-get-along.jpeg

Thanks for your information, this is a very, very common mistake ( incl me haha )
so the actual ROI there is the amount of profit we have gained from Capital

phishing link don't click

Ill say what I want and call "it" what I want to.   Ill call it IOR.  How about that!

Seriously these people...its like correcting someone for saying hodl.  ROI is just a thing to say, nobody thinks it actually means return on investment.  We say ROI - it means - how many days mining at this price and this difficulty will it take to mine the amount of capital I am spending ?  People call that ROI in crypto.  No one cares that its not the actual definition.