Bitcoin Forum

Link to stories
http://rt.com/news/first-bitcoin-atm-canada-932/

Id be interested to hear your opinions.


Video

http://rt.com/in-motion/canada-first-bitcoin-atm-958/

http://rt.com/files/news/20/f1/40/00/3.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/20/f1/40/00/1.jpg

Lol

http://youtu.be/ULqot90RWL4 (http://youtu.be/ULqot90RWL4)

A guy pranking to see if people would accept a body scan to enter a candy store.

Not sure if ATM is prank ?

Any Canadians in the house ?   

Want to extrapolate on the biometric scan to use ATM law ?

hmm Money laundering you say........


bumping until Vlad comes on here an writes something insane about Jesuits.

Insanity levels are way down on this sub forum.

People who accuse of 'money laundering' are perhaps money launderers themselves, or are using that
as some kind of smokescreen, while they have other secret agendas that are beneficial to themselves or their
associates.

From what I see in the poll results, it looks like we really don't like the scanning of the palm thing.

like, did anyone even ask where it gets recorded - or by whom ?

I'm sure that's all in the T and C of use ?

maybe it flashes up for a few seconds ?

RoboCoin ?

Regardless if it is, what's the issue? Even if they didn't I expect wherever the machine is located will have a raft of cameras around it and the surrounding area so your anonymity is never going to be that safe.

Further proof that MY COUNRTY SUCKS !

My apologies goes out to the Crypto community and to the World.

Forgive them. For they are redneck, UK/USA's bottom bitch, TV brainwashed, prescription junkie alcoholic pervs. They know not what they do.

These are the KYC (Know Your Client) laws that are being implemented at all entrances and exits of the cryptocurrency ecosystem because they know they cannot control the actual P2P system.  As much as I don't like it we MUST operate within these laws if we want physical avenues to exist in these countries to allow people access to the system.  That said what is stopping you from enlisting people to make the deposit for you and them handing over the wallet/password when they walk away from the ATM?

<- Canadian
I've never heard of somthing so damn intrusive, sounds like something Harper thought of.

yeah of course nothing ..

and to tell you truth , i had a wider theory on the complications of technology in relation to the organization of information, but that aside.

I think the "NSA" {all the groups across the globe} ended up agreeing with my wider theory and this is why we are starting to see from the late 90's really intrusive technology.

becasue i think you will find at a point , {kind of like monetary measurements} the technology caused a loss of organization due to it creating parallel problems.

thus , at a point the whole objective would have been confused, and information vastly duplicated and crossed.

but this ....

its still pretty retarded.

More like soon after BTC's devs had their sit downs with the CIA/ big gov.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6652.0

We have become the test market.

Direct from the owners behind the ATM's

“It’s to protect us and our business personally, just in case there is any fraud,” he said, “As well, if FINTRAC does decide to regulate Bitcoin businesses in the future, we’re just being proactive and following any guidelines that would be required of us. The banks require us to be proactive and follow the anti-money laundering guidelines that FINTRAC does put on money services businesses.”

Which was in reply to:

companies that deal in Bitcoin cannot be considered money services businesses under the current terms of the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act.

As he said, money is defined as the “currency of a country”. Bitcoin belongs not to any one country, but to the Internet.

If any Canadian Bitcoin dealer were to facilitate the transaction of the digital currency into American dollars or euros, they would then be considered a money services business and would need to register with FINTRAC.


So they don't technically have to, but are anyways, to be proactive.   At the end of the day, its likely 99% of the 'mass market' that everyone wants crypto to reach isn't going to care about this palm scan.  Those of you here that do, know of plenty of other ways to get bitcoins.   Its drummed up a lot of news, and is an easy to use entry point for 'the masses' to see/get btc.  Thats a great thing.

Digitalbro,

This is what I've been shouting about from the rooftops for 6 months, only to be called insane.  People can't see there is nothing anonymous and nothing secret about Bitcoin and digital money in general.

It is laughable.

Bitcoin is a government and banking ruse.  Is a game to get everyone to embrace digital money at any Costco.

It feeds off the greed and stupidity of people.

And it will not fail - it will succeed, as all the powers of the world are behind it.

And this is why I'm 100% certain of things like a Bitcoin ETF and $1,000+ price next year and mass global adoption by 2015.

Remember, today we are at less than 1%.

Yeah i hear you Vlad and it's hard to argue when retards like this company are doing things like this...

And then to hear that they didn't even need to actually record the biometric , so that is to imply it wasn't even a requirement, they just "felt like it would be a good idea" ? to be forward thinking ?

But lets put some things in perspective , most government legislation is well intentioned for example the statement on the ETF is about protecting shareholders , more likely i'd look at things like this a  a joke being pulled by the company .

No please, I don't want people chopping off my hand in the middle of the night...

The Pros And Cons Of Being A Hand ModelCarrie

http://www.xovain.com/nails/hand-modeling


how do you think these guys feel ?

You're being a bit naivé.   These jokes are intentionally testing the public's ability and tolerance for more intrusion and theft of privacy and since they're handling it well you can expect this biometric thing will be widespread all over the world and very much a requirement, including here in the land of the not so free.

To help you understand read up on inQtel.  That's the CIA's Venture Capital arm which has invested in start-ups like Google and Facebook.  And if you think it's not possible that they had a hand in helping Bitcoin and now these ATM's then you're being very naivé.

Sit back and watch it unravel, just don't call it a joke or an accident because there's much more planning behind the scenes than you and I can possibly fathom.

I got the impression the palm scan was just to limit the max amount one person buys in a certain time period (day? month?). The machine doesn't take your name or any other personal details right? If the scans are not linked to anything that IDs you, and are not stored any longer than the time period then is it a big deal?

Can anyone confirm whether the print is intended (or can be used to) link a persons identity to transactions, or whether it's just to try and ensure transactions are by different people?

Maybe you're not so wacko after all. ;D

@all

If this is allowed to become reality, what will you do if/when they turn your power and/or chip off ?

Hahahaaaa.

Are you serious?  Let's stop being naivé.

The reasons given and the real reasons can be totally different.  What do you expect the company or the government to tell you?

How do you know inQtel is not funding these ATM's?  Or do you think these governments are just letting some newbie tech company distribute ATM's for some bullshit digital coin, proven to be the top used currency in the world for laundering money, buying dope and illegal fire arms, and which nobody knows anything about - all around their country without any oversight?  Hahahaaaa.


Did google, apple, Microsoft, yahoo and everyone else tell you they were tapping you and feeding all your info to the govt?  Did the NSA tell you?

lol, we live in times when it's best to presume the worst is happening when it comes to your identity and your personal freedoms.

They threw it out there and gave a trivial answer to see if it sticks and if people eat it up then the real reason can be disclosed or amended any time later on.

Like the NSA was telling us all that they're profiling everyone on Facebook and building a database from all your emails, YouTube videos, texts and Facebook accounts? 

Lol, do we not have enough proof to realize there's way more shit going on than anyone realizes?

Come on, man, time to wake up from the deep slumber, Bitcoin and digital money is here to enslave the masses and the sheep are walking into the slaughter house thinking it's feeding time!!!!

There will only be one thing left to do.

Run for the hills!

I knew a guy that had a third arm that extended from his thorax , but im pretty sure it was already on record ...

Re Vlad <  I love this guy !

Seriously but Vlad , all these agencies , do you really believe they are that nefarious?

I mean at a point , after all these old cold war guys leave ....

Will not  humanity pause and say ...

 " wait, what are we doing here ? "

" who are we fighting ?"

" if we are making our own enemies up to start wars that dont benifit anyone , why are we doing it ?"

The war is over Vlad , Russia isn't the enemy,  and neither is China because the world became more complex.

No one can achieve a first strike and even if they could it doesn't make any sense anymore.

I think you will find all this commotion in relation to " spying" and these agencies is related to the cultural shifts taking place with regard to the way information  impacts humans under different circumstances,  its not nefarious and its not a conspiracy,  it just is what it is.

This peice of junk here,  is probably just that , or its an age old job of discrediting Cryptocurrency,  either way it has little impact its only even discussed here because I made such a big deal about it.

That and/or go on general strike/ boycott.

The Occupy Movement should have been the of the boycott variety...

Google, Facebook etc is a bit different as they actually have a large profile of information about people, it wasn't so surprising to me that NSA tried to tap into that. Still no answer to my question as to whether the palm print is linked to any personal data about you, can they even tell who you are from it? or if it stored longterm/transmitted from the machine at all.

who did you ask ?

I'd like to know myself, as the machine is connected to the net, it would have to be .

another point , are the users informed of your questions either way ?

the other point of course, is there a camera on the machine?

with technology its easy to match a face to a person, then effectively the print to the person.

- where is the print stored? who gets it ? - who owns the company ? do they use it ? - later on am i going to grab a handle somewhere to hear a Google voice say:

" hi xxxx how are you ..., nice weather isn't it ? , have you heard about xxxx we think based on your many profiles , you will looove xxxxx. "

as much as that would be cool and interesting , some people are just not ready for it . ..

: |

You put way too much faith in mankind and human nature which always leans left towards evil, power and corruption. When there's no cold wars they'll just turn on oppressing their own people, that's the nature of all governments as they get bigger and more powerful which is the phase we are now in.

You're probably agnostic so I'm not sure how to convince you of what seems like a certainty to me.  I guess you'll see it for yourself in the coming 24 months.  I seriously doubt it will take longer than that as the dollar, yen, and euro cannot go much longer than 2 more years.

And look, a new digital currency which everyone loves popped up on the scene, and anonymously too, right on time.  lol...

I go through the ol' fingerprint and retina scan routine when I enter the United States. While it's one thing to provide that sort of data to a government, not even a bank needs this data and a palm print to open a bitcoin account is just ridiculous. Not to mention there are loads of bitcoin sellers where you can just deposit fiat over the counter at a bank and be credited bitcoins by a third party into a wallet. Sure, you're on the bank security camera, but no-one has taken a palm print.

It's curious how we still believe 'privacy' is something that is possible in 'the digital age'.

 :-\

+ 1

It's even more curious how the masses still regurgitate things like:  Bitcoin is decentralized and totally ANONYMOUS. 

Hahahahhaaaa.  That's laughable.  My government fiat is already more anonymous than Bitcoin and any other digital coin out there with a permanent blockchain record and my IP address along with it.

Cash, silver and gold will ALWAYS be more anonymous than any digital money.  It's sad how people really can't see that.  Mass psychology, herd mentality:  repeat something enough times and the masses will believe it.  Roger Ver Sounds like a trained puppet reading a script everytime he opens his mouth. 

This is different though as they are using those scans to identify you with your identity (your passport details). If the ATM is using a palmscan to just ensure different users are using it, it's a completely different thing. Is it not possible everyone is just being paranoid about this?

If I gave you a palm scan and no other details, and told you whoever owned this palmscan bought a small amount of BTC what use is that info to you? If the user really cares about further privacy they could trade it for some LTC then back to BTC before spending it on a few beers. I'm sure this scenario is top priority for the government to track. They'd either have banned the ATMs or required photo ID if they really gave a crap no?

No.

It's called desensitizing the sheep.

And look, the sheep are already ok with it.

Time for phase II:  full biometric implementation. 

Maybe you don't travel very much or maybe you're a US Citizen but before I'm allowed to board a vessel headed for the United States I'm required to have an 'ESTA':

https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/

If granted, this visa, or more properly, visa waiver program, allows me to board a vessel and enter the United States. Now without putting too fine a point on it, it's run by the Department of Homeland Security who have overarching access to all US agencies information and if you apply for an ESTA, what do you think the DHS does?- check my name, my nationality, my height, the colour of my eyes, my skin colour, my weight?

No, that 'identity' information is just the first stage of the checking process. The US already had all that 'checking identity' capacity in the Customs and Border Protection department. The DHS was formulated to link every piece of information known about a person, not just identity. Part of the rationale given for the creation of the DHS was to 'fill the gaps between the various existing agencies'. Recall that the identities of the 9/11 bombers were known to US authorities before the attacks, it is other information that is required to make a full security assessment on someone, not just their identity. The passport, the SSN, the tax file number, etc are all ways for central governments to link non-identity information to a person's identity.

And no, I'm not paranoid at all. I'm quite comfortable providing details to governments to increase my personal security when I travel and, even when I'm at home for that matter. Just don't kid yourself that a passport is only about identity information and knowing who is crossing which borders; it's knowing who they are and knowing as much as possible about them to determine if that individual represents any type of threat and every piece of information that is available is linked to central identity documents like passports.

If it wasn't, how would a security determination be made? - "Yep, he's still the same guy, six foot tall, brown hair and has the same fingerprints". Doesn't tell you much, does it?

 ::)

Yeah it's a tricky one  shields , not a lot of it seems to make much sense.

I doubt this is a "government" idea , more likely bad interpretation or not well thpught through interpretation of government legislation.

I keep saying , generally government is not the problem.

I've traveled quite a bit, to 3 different continents, I don't recall ever having had a palm scan, so this Bitcoin atm by scanning my palm would not be able to identify me, and if that was intention then just asking for my name, or a passport scan would be a much better and easier way for them. So if this was their goal, why are they not doing that? The amount of info the US requires for entry is excessive and one reason I'm not in a hurry to go back. But it's nothing like the ATM is my point.

New question: If you were the ATM operator and in order to comply with the law had to prove no single person transacted more than 3k in one day, what better solution would you implement?

Id ask the government for clarification on the legislation, id explore what others have done , id explore what flexibility there is around the legislation,  id include the government in the process,  id show ths government any possible benifits, id start at the federal level then move backwards towards the local level but in a parallel manner, connecting both parties.  

Then if that failed , id make the assumption that it is my own failure or that the principal is in fundamental contradiction to some other major policy.

Then I would assess the impact that my action might take on the wider market.

Then the decision. Which would include not doing it at all .

Because the primary reason is to train the sheep to have their right hand scanned before they get their money.

Once the sheep have been trained with that idea then the next phase of implanting a chip in the right hand and having to scan that will seem like not such a big deal.

This is how you slowly indoctrinate the masses to accept anything they once thought appealing.

Remember just 10 years ago the idea of a fingerprint scanner on the laptop was absurd?  Lol, now the iPhone has it and everyone is excited about it.  It's a mechanical process which breaks down the sheep into accepting just about anything you can conceive. 

I started by commenting on the OP's observations by stating that in my opinion it was "ridiculous" for a bitcoin ATM to demand a palm print and I mentioned that in context with passport procedures entailing retina and fingerprints scans routinely taken from all visitors to the United States.

You then seemingly found fault with me saying that this biometric data (they're even called biometric passports) was being routinely provided to government agencies around the world via passports and that only "identity" information was captured by a passport. I argued that your opinion was vacuous and that the passport identity information had to be linked to other non-identity information before any security determination could be made.

That's it. That's that's all I'm saying.

If you think it's ok for a bitcoin ATM to request a palm scan, you're perfectly free to think that. I don't think that. But you can save spinning your yarn about passports being mere "identity" documents being unlinked to anything else, it's just completely false.

And by the way, it's not my job or inclination to comment on how an ATM manufacturer or any government behind it should assist compliance with whatever local legislation is being supposedly quoted here, so I'm not going to answer your question.

What I will say though in the context of this thread is that the anti-money laundering legislation in Australia which is modeled on the FATF Recommendations ( http://www.fatf-gafi.org/ ) does not impose any limits on transactions, it mandates that banks and other reporting entities report certain transactions to their local Financial Intelligence Unit, they in turn determine in connection with any other information at their disposal whether an offense has taken place. So the earlier comment about a bank imposing a limit on $3000 or whatever is likely to be an independent business decision applicable to smaller scale retail customers. Quite insulting really, but I'd doubt it's based on any money laundering legislation as the whole idea of the FATF committee was to put in place global anti-money laundering and counter-terrorist financing regulations which were commensurate internationally. Sure it's possible, maybe even likely that the federal US or even some states have strict local legislation that exceeds the international FATF standard, but don't for a second assume I'm going to be deflected without making it quite clear that your earlier vacuous passport remarks were utter nonsense.

If a bank limits you to $3000 a month withdrawals ask them why and if they cannot substantiate their position, find another bank. Same with a crappy bitcoin ATM, bitcoins have existed fine without some corporate clowns limiting how many each individual can access, so if those limits (real or imaginary) aren't to your liking, then choose another way of accessing them.

While I do feel that its somewhat odd, at the same time, its not like they are collecting your palm scan and storing it on a federal database, and even if they did, you are paying with cash, how would they know who's palm it is? I'd imagine all it does is stores the palm print, and doesn't allow the same to use the ATM until they are allowed to do so again.

Now if you have to enter your name, and other personal information, as well as your palm print, thats an issue, but unless you have been finger/palm printed before, how would they know who you are?

That being said, its still a pretty stupid system, I'd just pay passing kids $5 to touch the machine for me. What prevents someone from getting a group of people (family or friends) and having them all touch it one after the other, to get their $3k limit with 20 different people. Those that want to launder are going to do so, and the current system wont stop anyone but the people who are unknowingly laundering.

Great point.  The bad guys always find a way around the system while it is we the people that end up losing more and more of our rights.

Well Salty it does ask for an "account" so I guess its all up to what it asks for in that process , but agreed.

Also , what oleole said.

Indeed , every bank has software " triggers" , even on applications,  that is to say on thier own employees as well.

Anything can be circumvented,  but id hope personally if funds are being used nefariously , we could all play a part to stop these things, awkward situations occur of course , where our governments are supporting known terrorists against democratically elected governments. Or for that matter any sovereign system.

But perhaps if we calmly appeal to the common senses of our leaders, these situation may become less frequent.  

Im sure somewhere someone thinks they are doing the right thing.

When will people stop being such scared bitches when it comes to the government?  ???

I don't make it a secret who I am or what I do, and yet I walk free. If everyone just ignored government, we wouldn't have one.

I guess if people are willing to scan their palm to buy bitcoin, then whatever, but its that kind of stupidity that causes oppressive government.

If everybody ignored government we wouldn't have one?

Hahaahhahaa.

That's like saying:  if everyone ignored gangsters and crime it would just all to away.

Take a look at history, government never to away, they just get bigger and bigger and more corrupt until they destroy themselves and their entire society which put them in power.

And that's not scared bitches of the government, it's called historic reality and those who choose to ignore it will relive the same nightmare over and over again.

I hope to be living in Argentina or something when the shit hits the fan here and I'm sure you can ignore the FEMA camps they have planned for you and your old parents and they'll just all go away. 

Good luck!

This is exactly what my understanding of it was, and I have no problem with it if that's all it does with the scan.

OleOle, my only point about passports was that biometric readings at airports link you to your passport and whatever information is linked to that, which indeed could many things. My understanding of the biometric reading of the ATM is that it is anonymous, and would have no need to be stored centrally etc.

They said they needed a way (to comply with the AML law) to prevent anyone transacting more than 3k and to me this seems like a pragmatic solution - I was asking if anyone has a better one? As if not the only options were to do the scan, not do the scan and break the law, or not deploy the ATM at all.

Obviously in a place like AUS if there is no daily limit there would be no need for the scan.

You seem very riled up with me for some reason, not sure what I said to offend you so much.

I can't speak for him , ( I'm sure he can ) but i can say Aus systems have daily limits - just not biometrics to secure them.

I think he was annoyed becasue you seemed to imply that say a department that many see as "semi-governmental" or "Extra-Governmental" like the "Department of Homeland security" these Fascist sounding STASI,  like "departments" , you seemed to imply that they do not use all the biometric and other information they get - when the many laws that were written for them like the "Patriot Act" etc , in fact require they do just that , and afford very little rights to the individual .

Not that i have a problem with any of that myself per say - I just think they will shoot themselves in the foot eventually , that 's fine , i think he was annoyed you seemed to be trying to "Polish the DHS Turd" as far as its encroachments on individual privacy.

that's all. 

if I've got it wrong - anyone chime in please.

OK i don't remember talking about much of that stuff. My general comment on US policy was "The amount of info the US requires for entry is excessive and one reason I'm not in a hurry to go back."

OK then i'm confused -

disregard


Palms scan is bad mmmmmmmmk


or hey! maybe its not ? maybe its all on the up an up and yeah they were just complying with the  regulation and thought that a palm scan would be very "2013" - after all i mean the human space program kind of fizzled and what ever happened to flying cars ? - all the cars still use rubber tires, and they just wear , and is it just me or do shoes now only last about 1 or 2 months ?  

anyhow...

I went into a public toilet recently and it was fully automated and talked to me , i thought it was very 2013 ! if at that moment it had of ask for a palm scan , hey sure in the heat of the moment ! maybe it would have won me over ? {it had a kind voice}

as unhygienic and that possibly could end up being ?

Like I said, you're scared of the USA. Stop giving them your money.

I don't donate my money to governments, they take it away.  Not much choice there.

And I'm scared of any government that has gotten too big for its purpose and now passes law after law taking away more and more of my rights everyday.

They have laws now saying the military can take you in with no rights for any amount of time and drones can now fly over civilian air space.  Now palm readers at ATM's and digital money which will track every move you make?

If that kind of bullshit doesn't scare you then maybe you don't really see what's happening.

lol fuck that shit, just pay homeless people to scan their hands for you.

Least you have the option to scan your palm:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24803378

And like, who do you even complain to if you are say , young and keep getting seniors adverts  ?

Crazy indeed , genuinely feel that someone thinks this gives "competitive edge"

This.

Who in their mind would give his palm scan to a stranger. Is it ever legal ?

This is what people will try to do, Problem is, That the camera's are going to see your face, and who's hand grabbed the money will be scanned and seen.
If the logged face doesnt match up with the logged plam print scan, It'll reject you

Gonna pay the same homeless guy? You mayaswell not use the ATM due to the high cost of hobo fee's

Please Mr. bankster I'd like to open a Bitcoin savings account...

OK great! We just need your Name, Age, DoB, PoB, Mother's Maiden Name, Passwords, Passport, Driving License, Birth Certificate, Medical Records, Retina Scan, Palm Scan, Hair Sample, DNA Sample, Mug Shot and then you just need to sign and date this 100 page document...

It's all safe and secure, we just want to protect the good average citizens against the criminals and terrorists. Honest.

http://flashforward.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Hand

Its the same crap all over, NSA, GCHQ or whatever your local spy agency is called, you know that once you start handing over your bio metrics it will end up with the government and they have shown they simply can't be trusted.

Taking my picture or whatever is common and cant generally avoided but giving away your bio-metrics, which uniquely identifies you as you is something to be avoided.

DAM ! the reason HoboNickels are on the rise !

see..

First you get the HoboNickels

then you get the Hobo hand

then you get the Bitcoin

then you get the power

then you get the woman !

The bottom line is that the Canadian government requires that the seller knows the identity of those doing the currency exchange. Remember this machine not only uses bitcoin, but Canadian fiat.  Fiat currency is not owned by you, rather you are granted the right to use it within whatever laws the issuing authority feel like making. This is robocoin's idea to address those laws. A bitcoin ATM that anonymously dispenses BTC is not going to happen in most (any?) country.

that's a huge call.

I'd bet against that .

i'd bet a Hobo's hand. (well just the lend of it... ) (what you do with it is up to you of course.)

That's a bit unethical really.  :D

A Bitcoin ATM that pseudo anonymously dispenses BTC has already happened in every country!

It's called anyone with a portable Bitcoin wallet or app. that wants to sell you some Bitcoins for fiat or vice versa.

Bitcoins, Alt. coins, Pizzas and Haircuts.  (Yes - Haircuts, see my above post)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=323188.msg3460909#msg3460909

- Be Your Own Bank. Local Bitcoin FTW.

What if a hologram of your hand print or any biometric will fool them ?

Thats when things will get freaky ugly. All they need to do is SCAN YOU. :o

Maybe bitcoin ATM's will become ubiquitous, I don't know? But anyone who buys one does this in the U.S. without a money transmitter licenses is outside of the law.  That's my understanding from looking into it a few months ago.
And I don't think in person sales are a loophole. While it is not likely one would get caught, you may actually need a licenses to do that also. It's just all so new.